Brawler's Stance vs Bouncer

[Jezekie]

I'm a bit anoyed by the fact that our lvl 30 upgrade to Brawler's Stance, Bouncer, doesn't have +Deflection skill on it. As it is now it raises Defense and Physicality, which is fine if it also raised Deflection, the one skill we're most dependant on when tanking. Since Defense seems to only factor in Mitigation and not Avoidance.There is little to no reason in my opinion to stop using Brawler's Stance, unless we stop gaining skill boosts from it at some point.

[Oidan]

<DIV>So you have noticed that you cant tank as well with Bouncer vs Brawlers Stance when exp on the same level mobs or are you going by the label? How is the healers power bar after you are done with a fight regarding both of them?</DIV>

[Jezekie]

I havn't had a chance to test that out yet, about con color on skills making a differnce. My initial thoughts are that they don't. But well that remains to be tested.But as you can see in this thread, the skill gains are still nice with Bralwer's stance Adept 3 vs Bouncer.http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1049<p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>12-13-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:53 PM</span>

[psubull]

<DIV>I use Bouncer adept 1 over brawlers stance adept 3, and for some reason it just makes tanking easier.  Sure i deflect more with brawlers stance, but it does seem to drop the damage taken quite a bit with bouncer </DIV>

[Jezekie]

Well that's to be expected, since bouncer yields a higher mitigation increase in the form of raising Defense, and thus AC.But personally I'd rather have higher avoidance (Parry/Block/Riposte - Deflection skill), and AGI (not getting hit by mobs at all prior to deflection skills checking), then more raw AC/Defense.

[Windy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote:<BR>Well that's to be expected, since bouncer yields a higher mitigation increase in the form of raising Defense, and thus AC.<BR><BR>But personally I'd rather have higher avoidance (Parry/Block/Riposte - Deflection skill), and AGI (not getting hit by mobs at all prior to deflection skills checking), then more raw AC/Defense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The skills seem to work like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defense - Chance to evade attacks.  It's not like EQ1 Dodge, instead your defense skill determines how hard you are to hit in the first place.  It's not as much a skill check as it is a target number for the enemy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parry - This determines our chance to parry, obviously.  I think it also determines our riposte chance aswell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deflection - This skill reduces incomming damage.  It's mitigation, not avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure what handles block, but i've noticed that I can block even without a shield.  I normally use a shield while tanking, though, for the extra AC and it does seem to increase my chance of blocking by a noticable amount, even if it's just a buckler. </DIV>

[Jezekie]

I disagree. And the interview with Moorguard indicates that Deflection is our avoidance skills, and not related to mitigation.<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE>I have been clear from the beginning that brawlers, monks, and bruisers are tanks. They have high hit points and taunting abilities just like any fighter, though they have their own unique flavor as well. Brawlers rely on avoidance more than mitigation, and they get the deflection skill to aid them in their tanking role</DIV><hr></blockquote>So to recap...Deflection is Block and Riposte.Or Parry handles both parrry and riposte. Regardless deflection handles block rate.Defense is giving pure mitigaton in the form of higher AC, AC is only mitigation not avoidance.AGI * increases damage avoidance (all classes) Shields do not help both blocking AND mitigation unless they have both shield factor and AC to my knowledge. Shield factor determines block rate, where as AC adds to mitiation.In any event, Bouncer is NOT a good upgrade to Brawlers stance because we lose the additional points to our Deflection skill. Wether this solely determines our block rate, and parry handles riposte, doesn't matter. Fact is we need the additional blocking rate more so then we need raw mitigation in defense.<blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE>Shields have a chance to block incoming attacks, similar to the deflection skill for brawlers. Brawlers wielding shields get both a deflect and shield block roll. The chance to deflect an incoming attack depend on the level of the attack vs the wielders skill in the appropriate shield line, the class of shield (buckler, round, kite, tower) and the "rarity" (sometimes called "tier") of the shield. Bucklers offer low blocking percentages, round shields somewhat higher, it takes a kite or tower shield to block with significant regularity. You really want a common crafted or better quality shield, the store bought and common complete drops are not as reliable at blocking..</DIV><hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE>Comparing different shields by their armor value is valid, but the armor class appearing the character profile is simply a conglomerate number for your own reference, it is never used directly in any mechanic.</DIV><hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 PM</span><p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:36 PM</span>

[Jezekie]

Patch notes suggests Deflection is purely our blocking skill, Parry should handle riposte then.*** Mechanics *** - Removed the ability for bralwers, monks, and bruisers to equip shields.- Increased brawler Deflection to provide the equivalent of always having a buckler equipped.- Increased monk and bruiser Deflection to provide the equivalent of always having a round shield equipped.

[Miyu-Lega]

Bumping this because I have a question, more or less a grey area.Next time you are in game. Hit L. Now click on Defense. Read what it says, read it again hehe."Defense - This is how well you <b>avoid</b> physical attacks."If this is the case then bouncer would be a better choice at adept3. If this is a typo, then Brawlers Stance would be champion.Another interesting note. Brawlers Stance at adept3 and Bouncer at adept1 yield the same defense gain.Thoughts?

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miyu-Legacy wrote:<BR>Bumping this because I have a question, more or less a grey area.<BR><BR>Next time you are in game. Hit L. Now click on Defense. Read what it says, read it again hehe.<BR><BR>"Defense - This is how well you <B>avoid</B> physical attacks."<BR><BR>If this is the case then bouncer would be a better choice at adept3. If this is a typo, then Brawlers Stance would be champion.<BR><BR>Another interesting note. Brawlers Stance at adept3 and Bouncer at adept1 yield the same defense gain.<BR><BR>Thoughts?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah if you read them it seems like this:</P> <P>Defense = avoidance</P> <P>Deflection = mitigation</P> <P>Parry = intercepting of attacks (block/repost/parry)</P> <P>Or something?<BR></P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>I clicked on my Brawler's Stance. Then I clicked on my Bob and Weave. I looked at my deflection skill. No change?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I turn off Brawler's Stance while Bob and Weave is still active... it goes down a little, but still has some bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sooo... I try casting Bob and Weave first... then I cast Brawler's Stance. It goes up to the total I had originally with just Brawler's Stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My conclusion? The deflection bonus from both those abilities don't stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've used Bouncer as soon as I've gotten it. I use Eye Gouge to start.. then when it's effect start to wear off (right around when there's about 20 seconds left on timer), I hit Bob and Weave and Fierce Punch. Then I hit Eye Gouge again when it's up. Keeps me alive much more when I'm tanking nasties (anything yellow and up).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my experience. Dunno if it's changed in the past while, but Brawler's is grey to me now. *shrug*</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Miyu-Legacy wrote:<BR>Bumping this because I have a question, more or less a grey area.<BR><BR>Next time you are in game. Hit L. Now click on Defense. Read what it says, read it again hehe.<BR><BR>"Defense - This is how well you <B>avoid</B> physical attacks."<BR><BR>If this is the case then bouncer would be a better choice at adept3. If this is a typo, then Brawlers Stance would be champion.<BR><BR>Another interesting note. Brawlers Stance at adept3 and Bouncer at adept1 yield the same defense gain.<BR><BR>Thoughts?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah if you read them it seems like this:</P><P>Defense = avoidance</P><P>Deflection = mitigation</P><P>Parry = intercepting of attacks (block/repost/parry)</P><P>Or something?<BR></P><hr></blockquote>Yeah, that's where the confusion is. Because the descriptions just seems backwards to me, compared to what they "might" have been intended to be.

[Corasik]

<DIV>If you assume the ingame descriptions are correct (no guarantee of course),</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not too hard to justify the names logically.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defence, your trained to be missed, so defense skill is the initial hit/miss check (This is also what EQ1 defense did)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parry, Im assuming this controls Block, Parry and Riposte, 1 skillcap visible but buried in the game engine, separate checks for the different skills. As brawlers get block, and other fighters dont, thats an extra check the brawlers get? (Or if its like EQ1, block will fire more often than other similar skills) These skills are only checked if the mob has 'overcome' your defence skill and got a chance to hit you. You dont get a skillcheck if the mob's already missed (saves cpu cycles).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deflection, and this is complete 'guesswork' based on the ingame desctiption. The mob has hit you.. ouch, but you manage to deflect the blow to hit a less critical part of your body, so it hurt less. Its still a hit, it still hurts, but the damage is reduced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is of course, pure speculation. It would be nice if Moorgard could come and explain things 'officially'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You might consider shield using to be deflection as well, if you wield a shield, and you get smacked hard, while much of the force is distributed to the large surface area of the shield, your arms going to hurt after a while from the impact. What the shield has done is protected your most volnerable spots.</DIV>

[Miyu-Lega]

I've PM'd Moorgard asking for clarification. I do hope he responds and if he does I'll post here. P.S. I didn't include a link to this thread because it's on his 'will not answer' list, like putting his name in the title.

[Jezekie]

Well, here's the proof that the descriptions is reversed, and it's like I've been saying all along. Our Deflection is for avoidance (Block), and Defense is for AC, ie. Mitgation.http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=2966#M2966<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>Currently the AC number that you see on your character profile is based on the armor class of your gear, your stats, your shield, and your Defense skill.</DIV><hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>No doubt this change will inspire discussion about the defensive capabilities of the fighter classes, since brawlers have to this point displayed lower AC numbers than other types of fighters. This has been due to the fact that, as described above, the current system doesn't take into account the Deflection skill, which is a huge factor in the brawler classes' tanking ability. After this change, the defensive capabilities of bruisers and monks will be much more visible to players who compare AC values.</DIV><hr></blockquote>

[Gestalt79]

<DIV>I suppose that forthcoming change could be a good thing for those of us in the bruiser/monk class tree.  It will show some others who refused to believe we have the capability to tank that we can.  However, I can see getting just the right displayed AC to be a problem.  Mitigation should be easier to display, since it's usually a more consistent reduction in damage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug Then again, i could be very wrong and it'll be easy for them to display the combination of Mitigation and Avoidance into one number for all the see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see it already though.  Shaman class healer with same level guardian and bruiser in the group.  Guardians AC shows 50 more than Bruisers.  When one or both start to argue that the Guardian should tank based on that, I'll know I'm in trouble.  =P</DIV>

[Miyu-Lega]

<blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:Well, here's the proof that the descriptions is reversed, and it's like I've been saying all along. Our Deflection is for avoidance (Block), and Defense is for AC, ie. Mitgation.http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=2966#M2966<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>Currently the AC number that you see on your character profile is based on the armor class of your gear, your stats, your shield, and your Defense skill.</DIV><hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>No doubt this change will inspire discussion about the defensive capabilities of the fighter classes, since brawlers have to this point displayed lower AC numbers than other types of fighters. This has been due to the fact that, as described above, the current system doesn't take into account the Deflection skill, which is a huge factor in the brawler classes' tanking ability. After this change, the defensive capabilities of bruisers and monks will be much more visible to players who compare AC values.</DIV><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>But shield is considered avoidance, so your logic might be flawed. Shield is not true AC so it gives a false number when it factors in shield factor.

[Slartic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gestalt79 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I suppose that forthcoming change could be a good thing for those of us in the bruiser/monk class tree.  It will show some others who refused to believe we have the capability to tank that we can.  However, I can see getting just the right displayed AC to be a problem.  Mitigation should be easier to display, since it's usually a more consistent reduction in damage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug Then again, i could be very wrong and it'll be easy for them to display the combination of Mitigation and Avoidance into one number for all the see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see it already though.  Shaman class healer with same level guardian and bruiser in the group.  Guardians AC shows 50 more than Bruisers.  <STRONG><EM><FONT color=#ffff33>When one or both start to argue that the Guardian should tank based on that, I'll know I'm in trouble</FONT></EM></STRONG>.  =P</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'd say that if you are in  greoup with a guardian of the same or higher level he should tank every time. Although you probly could tank just as well as him what would he be doing while you tank? Certainly not the same damage you could throw at it if he was tanking. Why would you want to tank and do less damage making the guardian pretty useless rather than using yourself and the guardian to their full potential?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats why i love bruising we can tank if needed but when we have another tank in the group we are more efficient to hit them hard and fast and take them down that much quicker. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my thoughts being thrown around at random again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slarti</DIV>

[Corasik]

<DIV>Jez, I have to disagree with what your reading into moorgards post. What moorgard posted doesnt indicat the descriptions are reversed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He says the AC display is a based on Armor, Stats, and Defence skill. Ok Fine,  but we're all agreed that Agility is avoidance right?</DIV> <DIV>Well if you get an agility buff your AC will go up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The diplayed AC number is a combination of avoidance and mitigation. It was exactly the same in EQ1, and its done like this because Sony dont consider the average player to be smart enough to know which is best avoidance or mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore, he says Delfection doesnt affect AC. Well it probably has its on independant skill check, and it works differently to normal mitigation. However if it was pure avoidance it would probably already be included in the AC value, just as agility increases are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still believe the descriptions are accurate at this time.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Miyu-Legacy wrote:<blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:Well, here's the proof that the descriptions is reversed, and it's like I've been saying all along. Our Deflection is for avoidance (Block), and Defense is for AC, ie. Mitgation.http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=2966#M2966<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>Currently the AC number that you see on your character profile is based on the armor class of your gear, your stats, your shield, and your Defense skill.</DIV><hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>No doubt this change will inspire discussion about the defensive capabilities of the fighter classes, since brawlers have to this point displayed lower AC numbers than other types of fighters. This has been due to the fact that, as described above, the current system doesn't take into account the Deflection skill, which is a huge factor in the brawler classes' tanking ability. After this change, the defensive capabilities of bruisers and monks will be much more visible to players who compare AC values.</DIV><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>But shield is considered avoidance, so your logic might be flawed. Shield is not true AC so it gives a false number when it factors in shield factor.<hr></blockquote>I don't see your point? When we know shields offer increased Blocking rate, and I've said nothing otherwise. <blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote:<DIV>Shields have a chance to block incoming attacks, similar to the deflection skill for brawlers. Brawlers wielding shields get both a deflect and shield block roll. The chance to deflect an incoming attack depend on the level of the attack vs the wielders skill in the appropriate shield line</DIV><hr></blockquote>Now though we now have buildt in shields added to our Deflection %.<p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:29 PM</span>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Corasik wrote:<DIV>He says the AC display is a based on Armor, Stats, and Defence skill. Ok Fine, but we're all agreed that Agility is avoidance right?Well if you get an agility buff your AC will go up. The diplayed AC number is a combination of avoidance and mitigation.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I disagree, currently AC only reflects Mitigation. How AGI factors in to all this when it increases AC I'm unsure of. Possible left over from a differnt AC system? Possible addition to mitigation, all though minor?I've not once seen any indication that the current AC value offers anything other then Mitigation.From the beta forums someone asked the following question.<blockquote><hr>cpavlas wrote:<DIV>Since my Armor Mitigation log thread never got any dev replies ill post my questions here.. Does AC have any computation in determining miss rates on getting hit or any other form of defense..parry/riposte etc.. As i posted my logs showing the difference between 450ish AC and 130ish AC and there was not a whole lot of difference that i noticed, and of course everybody got defensive saying it must have been because it has to do with my miss ratio..im 99% sure that AC has nothing to do with how often you dodge a incoming attack..thats probably agility. Heres the thread i posted a week ago or so with the logs and stats i calculated out...Keep in mind the 60 hit test is PURELY 60 hits..not 60 swings....it took quite awhile standing there for them to hit me 60 times..it was alittle disturbing how little 300 AC difference seemed to affect how much damage i took over the duration of 60 hits.</DIV><hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote:<DIV>Armor does not inherently change the amount of misses, parries, deflections or blocks. Unless of course a specific piece of armor adds to your defense, parry, deflection, or appropriate shield skill (which in general, it doesn't).</DIV><hr></blockquote>

[Corasik]

<DIV>The only 'Stat' that affects AC is agility, and I stand by what I said that EQ combines Avoidance and Mitigation into a single AC value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The battle round is fairly simple, and appears to be quite similar to Everquest1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Attacker makes attack roll, this is modified by offensive skills like mace, staff etc</DIV> <DIV>Defender makes defence check, based on Defence and Agility. (Now SOE are well known for having hidden modifiers, so its certainly not impossible that Brawler and their subclasses have a hidden modifier that means they get missed more often)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Attacker beats defender, a hit is made.</DIV> <DIV>If the defender wins, then he has avoided the hit. Attack round over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assuming the attacker hits, the defenders secondary skill checks fire. These appear to be based on the skill Parry in EQ2, rather than separate skills for each of Dodge/Block/Riposte. I suspect the game rolls checks for Block/Parry/Ripost separately, but uses the value stored in Parry as the skill level for each check. (Again, a potential for a hidden class based modifier)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the defenders secondary defence skill comes up, then the hit is blocked, parried, or riposted, and the attack round ends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally the game the rolls for damage, this is based on his weapons damage, and skill modifiers like Crushing, Slashing etc. This is then applied to the defender, after the defender has had a chance to mitigate this damage down to a lower level. This is primarily based on the armor your wearing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for deflection, I suspect its added as a secondary mitigation skill after the main AC mitigation has been applied. However there really is no evidence one way or the other. Perhaps both defence and deflection skills are avoidance types. However as we already have Defence, and Parry as primary and secondary avoidance skills, its more logical for Deflection to kick in as a secondary mitigation skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Corasik wrote:<DIV>As for deflection, I suspect its added as a secondary mitigation skill after the main AC mitigation has been applied. However there really is no evidence one way or the other. Perhaps both defence and deflection skills are avoidance types. However as we already have Defence, and Parry as primary and secondary avoidance skills, its more logical for Deflection to kick in as a secondary mitigation skill.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>The thing is, Deflection has nothing to do with Mitigation, it's the skill that makes us able to Block attacks, Parry does not cover Blocking only 'Parry' and possibly 'Riposte'. No other class can block without a shield equipped.Up until recently we could use our Deflection skill + shield, to have two chances of blocking incoming attacks. Now that we have had round shields buildt in to our character we "only" have Deflection, which i suspect have had an increase in Blocking percentages equiliant to some form of Round Shield. So say you blocked 2 attacks with a skill of 100 Deflection on average, now with buildt in Round Shields we block 2.5 attacks with 100 skill. Purely exsample numbers.

[Moorgard]

<DIV>The factors that affect your mitigation are armor type (light, medium, heavy, etc.), the tier (quality) of the item, the level of the gear, and the level of the opponent attacking you. Also, spell effects can raise or lower your overall chance to mitigate physical attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defense, parry, deflection, agility, and shields all affect your chance to avoid physical attacks. They don't impact mitigation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While each type of armor has a base mitigation value, that value is modified by item level and quality. As a piece of armor turns blue to green to grey to you, it loses more and more of its mitigation value until it becomes essentially worthless. In terms of quality, a rare armor piece of a given type will mitigate more than a common piece of the same type. Item tier can have a major effect; an artifact-quality piece of medium armor, for instance, will likely have higher mitigation than many types of heavy armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The level of the opponent is also a factor. With the same set of armor, you will mitigate a greater percentage of damage from an opponent that is at or below your level as opposed to one that is higher level than you are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are obviously a lot of elements that go into how well you defend yourself against attacks. The upcoming change to the displayed AC value is designed to sum them up so you can get a better idea of how the various factors affect the damage you end up taking over time.</DIV>

[Miyu-Lega]

Thank you very much for clarifying this Moorgard, that is huge!

[Pain Divine]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>The factors that affect your mitigation are armor type (light, medium, heavy, etc.), the tier (quality) of the item, the level of the gear, and the level of the opponent attacking you. Also, spell effects can raise or lower your overall chance to mitigate physical attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defense, parry, deflection, agility, and shields all affect your chance to avoid physical attacks. They don't impact mitigation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While each type of armor has a base mitigation value, that value is modified by item level and quality. As a piece of armor turns blue to green to grey to you, it loses more and more of its mitigation value until it becomes essentially worthless. In terms of quality, a rare armor piece of a given type will mitigate more than a common piece of the same type. Item tier can have a major effect; an artifact-quality piece of medium armor, for instance, will likely have higher mitigation than many types of heavy armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The level of the opponent is also a factor. With the same set of armor, you will mitigate a greater percentage of damage from an opponent that is at or below your level as opposed to one that is higher level than you are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are obviously a lot of elements that go into how well you defend yourself against attacks. The upcoming change to the displayed AC value is designed to sum them up so you can get a better idea of how the various factors affect the damage you end up taking over time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Does this apply to all classes? If so, that kind of Sux. You're basically Penalizing people for leveling. </DIV>

[Syrano]

<blockquote><hr>Does this apply to all classes? If so, that kind of Sux. You're basically Penalizing people for leveling.<hr></blockquote>It's only a penalty if you choose to look at it that way. This keeps items flowing in and out of the economy. It's healthy for the economy and it's better for you. If your gear is green/grey you know it's time to upgrade.

[Nemi]

<blockquote><hr>Does this apply to all classes? If so, that kind of Sux. You're basically Penalizing people for leveling. <hr></blockquote>I often wonder how many people think like this. What your essentially saying is that you feel that the armour you bought at level 10 should be just as effective at level 50?How many pieces of armour did you still have 10-15 levels later in any other MMORPG? The EQ2 system ensures the economy and crafters continue to have work to do.

[Jezekie]

Thanks for posting Moorguard. If you wouldn't mind clarifying our Deflection skill as well that would be great, and wether it really affects our blocking rate, and if so why Bouncer and Retaliation doesn't give a boost to this skill but only Brawler's Stance does so.Back on topic though, I thought that this design with armor eventually being useless when it turns grey was scrapped towards the mid/end of beta, so that all that mattered in the end was the AC shown on the items.On the old beta boards Oakwood asked Patherpanchali which of the following statements were true. 1. A level 15 warrior fighting a level 15 mob while wearing a 50 ac (green number), heavy, yellow con chestplate has more damage mitigation compared to wearing a 50 ac (green number), medium, blue con chestplate? 2. A level 15 warrior fighting a level 15 mob while wearing a 50 ac (green number), heavy, yellow con chestplate has the same damage mitigation compared to wearing a 50 ac (green number), medium, blue con chestplate? (or close enough to the same as to make no measurable difference)And he replied<blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote:Oakwood: Statement 2 is true. Against equal level opponents, or opponents close to your level a blue armor class 50 chest piece has the same mitigation value as a yellow armor class 50 chest piece. If you gain a level, the yellow piece's armor class value will exceed 50 and that means you will likely value the yellow armor more since it can continue to operate at max effectiveness longer.</DIV><hr></blockquote>What he also mentioned in the thread.<blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote:Tier mitigation advantages are reflected in the green armor class value. The concept of tier is useful for determining what level of reward to expect from certain activities, but for comparing items the green armor class value is about all you need look at.</DIV><hr></blockquote>And...<blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote:Using the green armor class value to compare the mitigation values of two pieces of armor is reliable for things above you in level, even reds.</DIV><hr></blockquote>This is taken from the "How Armor works in EQII" thread from 10-07-2004.Has the system changed since then, or is all that matters really the AC value of items, and not wether it cons grey or blue, or yellow?

[lostlo]

<DIV>But what about non-AC types.  Like i'm 29 assassin (I know wrong class) and i'm using a grey bracer because it has 7agi on it.   Does that mean that its effects are worthless? </DIV>

[Sebastien]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>The factors that affect your mitigation are armor type (light, medium, heavy, etc.), the tier (quality) of the item, the level of the gear, and the level of the opponent attacking you. Also, spell effects can raise or lower your overall chance to mitigate physical attacks.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Defense, parry, deflection, agility, and shields all affect your chance to avoid physical attacks. They don't impact mitigation. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>While each type of armor has a base mitigation value, that value is modified by item level and quality. As a piece of armor turns blue to green to grey to you, it loses more and more of its mitigation value until it becomes essentially worthless. In terms of quality, a rare armor piece of a given type will mitigate more than a common piece of the same type. Item tier can have a major effect; an artifact-quality piece of medium armor, for instance, will likely have higher mitigation than many types of heavy armor.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The level of the opponent is also a factor. With the same set of armor, you will mitigate a greater percentage of damage from an opponent that is at or below your level as opposed to one that is higher level than you are.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>There are obviously a lot of elements that go into how well you defend yourself against attacks. The upcoming change to the displayed AC value is designed to sum them up so you can get a better idea of how the various factors affect the damage you end up taking over time.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Woah. *motions hands for a time out*This is very helpful information, but seems to be a complete contradiction to everything printed in the manual and the official game guide. All of the documentation on the game has told us that there is no mitigation difference between armor types, and that, assuming a medium and heavy piece have the same AC, they will both mitigate precisely the same amount of damage. Apparently that is not so?Are you also saying that, as a piece of armor goes from blue to green, even though its stated AC value does not change, that in fact the mitigation has been getting worse? o,0Lastly, are you saying that even though shields list an AC value, that in fact they add nothing to your mitigation? If so, why is there any point at all to looking at the AC stat on a shield? Wouldn't you just take whichever shield (from a given type) offered you the best stats, and ignore AC completely?This is all shocking info and apparently we were operating under a lot of misinformation about how our characters defend themselves. I'm not ranting, just seeking clarification and expressing my surprise at this.Can you also answer this age-old question please Moorgard: What is the difference between the stat Avoidance, which is invisible and can be buffed or boosted through certain traditions, and Defense, which is a listed stat?<p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 PM</span>

[Sunth]

<BLOCKQUOTE>Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>The factors that affect your mitigation are armor type (light, medium, heavy, etc.), the tier (quality) of the item, the level of the gear, and the level of the opponent attacking you. Also, spell effects can raise or lower your overall chance to mitigate physical attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>While each type of armor has a base mitigation value, that value is modified by item level and quality. As a piece of armor turns blue to green to grey to you, it loses more and more of its mitigation value until it becomes essentially worthless. In terms of quality, a rare armor piece of a given type will mitigate more than a common piece of the same type. Item tier can have a major effect; an artifact-quality piece of medium armor, for instance, will likely have higher mitigation than many types of heavy armor.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=48577#M48577" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=48577#M48577</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Moorgard's post seems to contridict other posts by developers. </STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Patherpanchali wrote:<BR></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Using the green armor class value to compare the mitigation values of two pieces of armor is reliable for things above you in level, even reds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Patherpanchali wrote:<BR></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>When comparing two pieces of armor that are equipped in the same slot, you need only look at the green armor class value to see the degree of mitigation protection it will give you vs. NPC's that are close to you in level, or above you in level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV></DIV></DIV>

[walkerwi]

<DIV>This is one thing that does my head in about SOE, they did this with SWG, do they not think people want to number crunch their stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing about RPGs (not just mmorpg) is messing with skills/equipment builds etc to make sure u have the right stuff for the right job, right now its too much of a lottery when fighting mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do admit its good that SOE are putting in more info (food stats, the incoming AC info) but I think they should go all the way and do a really good official screen of all the info possible, just like what u see in the HUD character command screen. They should also have done this from the start.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are too many skills that are suppose to do things that don't even bring up an icon or don't seem to do what they say, if we have all the info possible its easier for us to make ourselves as effective as possible. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would rather have raw numbers rather than dieing 3 or 4 times trying different skills that I can't  quite make out which is better or wasting a load of money on stuff that I thought was going to be better but in the end ended up been worse and I have no idea why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>True AC values are good, more stats/explanations are need tho pls (posions, various things in HUD character sceeen like the DPS factor etc)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well thats my thoughts anyway, I know some like to be in the dark and like trying to figure out which is which, but I would prefer hard stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love been able to group with different proffessions now and checking what other classes buffs do by using the HUD character command (pls don't take it away devs).</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Sebastien wrote:Lastly, are you saying that even though shields list an AC value, that in fact they add nothing to your mitigation? If so, why is there any point at all to looking at the AC stat on a shield? Wouldn't you just take whichever shield (from a given type) offered you the best stats, and ignore AC completely.<hr></blockquote>As I understand it...Shields have a Shield Factor, usually reflected by the AC on most shields, that determines their Block Rate. They do not add to mitigation. It was meant for rare shields to have both Shield Factor AND AC, so they both let you Block and add to mitigation, but at some point later in beta this was altered so shields were "easier" to understand and only show an AC factor now?.<blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote on 10-18-2004:Shields have a chance to block incoming attacks, similar to the deflection skill for brawlers. Brawlers wielding shields get both a deflect and shield block roll. The chance to deflect an incoming attack depend on the level of the attack vs the wielders skill in the appropriate shield line, the class of shield (buckler, round, kite, tower) and the "rarity" (sometimes called "tier") of the shield. Bucklers offer low blocking percentages, round shields somewhat higher, it takes a kite or tower shield to block with significant regularity. You really want a common crafted or better quality shield, the store bought and common complete drops are not as reliable at blocking.<hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Patherpanchali wrote on 10-19-2004:Comparing different shields by their armor value is valid, but the armor class appearing the character profile is simply a conglomerate number for your own reference, it is never used directly in any mechanic.<hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>01-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:25 AM</span>

[Dahlrek]

"The factors that affect your mitigation are armor type (light, medium, heavy, etc.), the tier (quality) of the item, the level of the gear, and the level of the opponent attacking you."It seems pretty straightforward (from the old armor thread) that this is just silly overexplanation of a simple number. Item AC (apparently aside from shields) => Mitigation. All this jazz about tier, level and type is just explaining the rules behind AC variations between items. Obviously, all other things being equal, a higher type, tier or level will result in a higher AC."Also, spell effects can raise or lower your overall chance to mitigate physical attacks"This confuses me. Is mitigation probabalistic in some sense, or was "chance" just poor wording?"As a piece of armor turns blue to green to grey to you, it loses more and more of its mitigation value until it becomes essentially worthless"Statements like this only server to further confuse your player base. This is a VERY SIMPLE question that requires only a VERY SIMPLE answer: Is a level 10 item with an AC of 10 just as effective as a level 11 item with an AC of 10? This question was answered in the "How armor works" thread a long time ago, as "Yes, they are of the same effectiveness". Your statement can easily be implied to mean that the level 10 item is worse than the level 11, just because it's lower."The upcoming change to the displayed AC value is designed to sum them up"I think it's pretty clear that many of us don't want mitigation and avoidance summed up. Given that they work in completely different manners, using different skills, have difference short-term effectiveness and work better with different healers... why would we want them summed up into a single indistinguishable value? If you REALLY want to oversimplify the displayed mechanics for people uninterested in analysis and careful play/development, fine; the least you can do is leave a mitigation AC and avoidance AC as values accessible to the interface system, so that those of us that do care can find and examine them.

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Dahlrek wrote:<BR>It seems pretty straightforward (from the old armor thread) that this is just silly overexplanation of a simple number. Item AC (apparently aside from shields) => Mitigation. All this jazz about tier, level and type is just explaining the rules behind AC variations between items. Obviously, all other things being equal, a higher type, tier or level will result in a higher AC.<BR>... <P></P> <P>Statements like this only server to further confuse your player base. This is a VERY SIMPLE question that requires only a VERY SIMPLE answer: Is a level 10 item with an AC of 10 just as effective as a level 11 item with an AC of 10? This question was answered in the "How armor works" thread a long time ago, as "Yes, they are of the same effectiveness". Your statement can easily be implied to mean that the level 10 item is worse than the level 11, just because it's lower.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Perhaps I was overly complicating things in my first post, but obviously this is an issue that can get pretty hairy. :smileywink:</P> <P>To put it simply:</P> <P>Item AC (excluding shields) = mitigation</P> <P>Skills and shields = avoidance</P> <P>While shields have an AC number, that number reflects the relative value of the avoidance they give. Shields don't mitigate anything; they give you an extra chance to avoid an attack.</P> <P>The very simple answer to your very simple question is what Pather mentioned during beta: look at the AC number. The higher the AC number, the more you will mitigate.</P> <DIV>The complex explanation is what I was getting at in my post: level, type, tier, material, and location determine what the AC value of a given armor piece will be. So it is conceivable that a rare piece of level 20 gear will give you more mitigation than a common piece of level 30 gear. How will you know? Check the AC number. If you have a choice between a level 20 chest piece that gives 400 AC and a level 30 piece of armor that gives 350, wear the level 20 piece, even if it's grey.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind that in most cases, the AC value will be higher on the higher-level armor. This is what I was trying to get at by saying that as things go toward grey they will lose value to you--not because they stop working, but because higher-level items will naturally eclipse them. Again, this is because of the computations that go into determining the AC value of any given piece. So if you see a piece of light armor that has higher AC than a piece of medium or heavy armor, it's because some other aspect of that light armor is making it exceptionally valuable.</DIV>

[WackyDakky]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The complex explanation is what I was getting at in my post: level, type, tier, material, and location determine what the AC value of a given armor piece will be. So it is conceivable that a rare piece of level 20 gear will give you more mitigation than a common piece of level 30 gear. How will you know? Check the AC number. If you have a choice between a level 20 chest piece that gives 400 AC and a level 30 piece of armor that gives 350, wear the level 20 piece, even if it's grey.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Woah, hold on there a sec.  Didn't you post a while back that grey armor doesn't give you any benefit? The general belief of the guardian community (based on their AC mitigation thread and your posts) is that grey armor no longer gives you any benefit, and the AC number displayed is a graphical bug.  Which is it?  This paragraph directly contradicts what you said earlier..</P> <P>Normally I don't mind, but this is starting to confuse a lot of people.  Check out your post here:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=48209&highlight=grey#M48209" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=48209&highlight=grey#M48209</A></P> <P>This has been taken by just about any fighter type as grey armor only gives stat boosts but does not give AC. </P><p>Message Edited by WackyDakky on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 PM</span>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>WackyDakky wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Moorgard wrote:<BR><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The complex explanation is what I was getting at in my post: level, type, tier, material, and location determine what the AC value of a given armor piece will be. So it is conceivable that a rare piece of level 20 gear will give you more mitigation than a common piece of level 30 gear. How will you know? Check the AC number. If you have a choice between a level 20 chest piece that gives 400 AC and a level 30 piece of armor that gives 350, wear the level 20 piece, even if it's grey.<BR><HR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><P>Woah, hold on there a sec. Didn't you post a while back that grey armor doesn't give you any benefit? The general belief of the guardian community (based on their AC mitigation thread and your posts) is that grey armor no longer gives you any benefit, and the AC number displayed is a graphical bug. Which is it? This paragraph directly contradicts what you said earlier..</P><P>Normally I don't mind, but this is starting to confuse a lot of people. Check out your post here:</P><P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=48209&highlight=grey#M48209" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Newbie&message.id=48209&highlight=grey#M48209</A></P><P>This has been taken by just about any fighter type as grey armor only gives stat boosts but does not give AC. </P><p>Message Edited by WackyDakky on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 PM</span><hr></blockquote>It doesn't give benefit from the standpoint that mobs you are fighting while wearing grey armor are going to do enough damage to make the mitigation on the armor more or less meaningless.

[xAlar]

<p>Message Edited by xAlaric on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:40 PM</span>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aeiouy wrote:<BR><BR>It doesn't give benefit from the standpoint that mobs you are fighting while wearing grey armor are going to do enough damage to make the mitigation on the armor more or less meaningless.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Correct.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The grey armor does give you whatever AC it displays. If a level 50 player wears level 10 armor, whatever AC is displayed will still count. But that amount of AC would be so meaningless against level 50 mobs that it would be worthless. If I said some time in the past that the AC value on grey armor was some kind of visual bug, then I was incorrect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In most cases you'll want to upgrade your armor when you enter a new level range because you'll gain mitigation benefits by doing so. There may be some cases, however, where a lower-level armor will provide greater benefit than a higher-level one, which is what I stated in my last post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are a level 40 player and are still wearing level 30 gear, it's not as if you will gain no benefit from it; you just may not be maximizing your potential. Keep in mind that any parsing done will be skewed if you aren't taking into account a reasonable level of equipment. If someone comes along and says "Bruisers can't tank!" but they are basing this on fighting level 50 mobs with level 30 gear, their data is not very sound.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aeiouy wrote:<BR><BR>It doesn't give benefit from the standpoint that mobs you are fighting while wearing grey armor are going to do enough damage to make the mitigation on the armor more or less meaningless.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Correct.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The grey armor does give you whatever AC it displays. If a level 50 player wears level 10 armor, whatever AC is displayed will still count. But that amount of AC would be so meaningless against level 50 mobs that it would be worthless. If I said some time in the past that the AC value on grey armor was some kind of visual bug, then I was incorrect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In most cases you'll want to upgrade your armor when you enter a new level range because you'll gain mitigation benefits by doing so. There may be some cases, however, where a lower-level armor will provide greater benefit than a higher-level one, which is what I stated in my last post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are a level 40 player and are still wearing level 30 gear, it's not as if you will gain no benefit from it; you just may not be maximizing your potential. Keep in mind that any parsing done will be skewed if you aren't taking into account a reasonable level of equipment. If someone comes along and says "Bruisers can't tank!" but they are basing this on fighting level 50 mobs with level 30 gear, their data is not very sound.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Right.</P> <P>You have to understand the item con colors are based on your skill in the given requirement, not on its usefullness overall.</P> <P>Gray just means that you are significantly higher leveled and therefore something, anything is a better choice than what you have.  </P> <P>But like Moorgard says, sometimes "exceptional" items bend the rules, like master chest drops.</P> <P>Thanks for the posts Moorgard, makes things a lot easier to understand.<BR></P>

[TunaBoo]

Good he confirmed what I thought all along (finally)

[Sunth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Good he confirmed what I thought all along (finally)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Yup.

[Sebastien]

OK I am calm again. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So, comparing the AC on items is totally valid, and AC is the nice means you give us to know which piece is better.AC on shields is also a valid means of comparison, but that "type" of AC relates to avoidance, not mitigation.In the near future, the overall AC value that displays in our paper doll will be some conglomeration of mitigation and avoidance for overall "defense" ability.Is that right?

[Deathbane27_aka_Mook]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE>The grey armor does give you whatever AC it displays. If a level 50 player wears level 10 armor, whatever AC is displayed will still count. </blockquote><hr></blockquote>Okay... but you just said "meaningless" and "worthless" in your post again. Although you state the facts, you still give the impression that you might as well un-equip it and sell it off, which is not the case. "Insignificant", maybe. "Worthless", no.<p>Message Edited by Deathbane27 on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 PM</span>

[Jezekie]

Once again, you're insight to the mechanics is greatly appreciated Moorgard, thanks again for clarifying it once and for all how we are to look at our armor and AC.

[saintchu]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<P>While shields have an AC number, that number reflects the relative value of the avoidance they give. Shields don't mitigate anything; they give you an extra chance to avoid an attack.</P><hr></blockquote>Will brawlers be shown what their inherent avoidance chance is?

[WackyDakky]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aeiouy wrote:<BR><BR>It doesn't give benefit from the standpoint that mobs you are fighting while wearing grey armor are going to do enough damage to make the mitigation on the armor more or less meaningless.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>But, you see, that's not what Moorgard said earlier.  There's a long thread in the guardian forums about this based on the post that he made which I linked above.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM>While you will still get any stat bonuses and inherent effects of grey-con armor, it will no longer provide you any protection against attack. You really should replace it.</EM></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those are the exact words from his post.  Unless you have some great insight into the inner workings of the game, that quote would lead most people to believe that grey armor doesn't give you any AC.  This has been the thinking of many people.  Moorgard could have posted on that thread with what he really meant, instead the thread just continued down the path that grey armor is worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's alright if he was wrong (people make mistakes) but I just wanted to confirm that what he said earlier is no longer the case (or he had the incorrect information).</DIV></DIV>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>WackyDakky wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>aeiouy wrote:<BR><BR>It doesn't give benefit from the standpoint that mobs you are fighting while wearing grey armor are going to do enough damage to make the mitigation on the armor more or less meaningless.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>But, you see, that's not what Moorgard said earlier. There's a long thread in the guardian forums about this based on the post that he made which I linked above.</DIV><DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><STRONG><EM>While you will still get any stat bonuses and inherent effects of grey-con armor, it will no longer provide you any protection against attack. You really should replace it.</EM></STRONG></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Those are the exact words from his post. Unless you have some great insight into the inner workings of the game, that quote would lead most people to believe that grey armor doesn't give you any AC. This has been the thinking of many people. Moorgard could have posted on that thread with what he really meant, instead the thread just continued down the path that grey armor is worthless.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It's alright if he was wrong (people make mistakes) but I just wanted to confirm that what he said earlier is no longer the case (or he had the incorrect information).</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>This discussion has been going on since beta. While often times the explanations can be confusing, Moorgard's initial one in this thread had my head spinning, nothing has changed.It is factual. If you have level 10 equipment and fight a level 40 mob, the amount of damage mitigated by your armor will be virtually zero. You absolutely should replace it. Should you replace it with yellow armor that has lower AC? Not usually... But then again, what Moorgard is saying is there will rarely be times when lower con armor has more AC than higher con armor.The bottom line is you should keep your equipment as upgraded as possible and continue to do so through the life of your character. If you are running around in 15 level old armor it is going to have a serious impact on the abilities of your character to defend themselves. You can compare armor pieces by looking at their AC number. Higher con armors will almost ALWAYS have a higher AC number than low con armor of the same type. The only exception would be rare and special items.

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Deathbane27 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE>The grey armor does give you whatever AC it displays. If a level 50 player wears level 10 armor, whatever AC is displayed will still count. </blockquote><hr></blockquote>Okay... but you just said "meaningless" and "worthless" in your post again. Although you state the facts, you still give the impression that you might as well un-equip it and sell it off, which is not the case. "Insignificant", maybe. "Worthless", no.<p>Message Edited by Deathbane27 on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Actually at a certain point, you would see virtually no difference between getting hit with your armor on and your armor off. So it will eventually become worthless.

[indiramourni]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <P><STRONG>Check the AC number. If you have a choice between a level 20 chest piece that gives 400 AC and a level 30 piece of armor that gives 350, wear the level 20 piece, even if it's grey.</STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This would seem to make the color con of armor useless then?  If all we need to do is look at the AC value of it.<BR> <p>Message Edited by indiramourning on <span class=date_text>01-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:58 AM</span>

[Jooneau]

Nitpicking here, but shields don't give an avoidance bonus. They give a deflection bonus, which is different.Mitigation (e.g., Armor Class) - affects how much damage you take on a hitAvoidance (e.g., Agility) - affects how often a monster misses you completelyDeflection (e.g., Shield Factor) - affects how often you deflect or block a monster's hit

[SkySava]

<DIV>Something to keep in mind here as an example that grey gear isn't all that bad. I'm a level 33 guardian and my Dwarven Work Boots have just greyed out on me. They are much better then any other boots I have seen that are orange to me (barring rare drops). They are grey but they give much better mitigation then if I "upgraded" to the tier I am currently on. So, I won't upgrade them until I see a higher AC number on orange booties. Also, I have a medium armor chest piece that gives much more AC then any heavies I can find. Thus, it will give me better mitigation reguardless of armor type. So, my DWB's and medium chest piece are staying on because they give better mitigation then common (or uncommon) oranges and heavies. If I am wrong on this Moorguard please let me know so I'm not getting beat on unnecessarily. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Windy]

<DIV>I have a skill called brawl, +20 fist, -40 deflection skill.  When using this, I can confirm with pretty high certainty that deflection is indeed mitigation, reducing damage.  With -40 deflection skill I take major hits, but my avoid rate doesn't seem to be noticably impacted over no stance at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To my knowledge it works like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC = Mitigation, Atk vs Ac determines damage a damage multiplier, like .8 ( 80% of normal damage ) or 1.2 ( 120% of normal damage )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defense = Chance to hit.  Offense (Crushing/slash/peircing) vs defense is the % chance of scoring a hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parry = Chace to parry, using the same formula as defense, only sub parry skill instead of defense</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deflection = Chance of doing reduced damage ( looks like 50%, could be variable, but thats my guess )  I'm guessing deflection works the same as defense and parry, only instead of a miss or 0 damage, it just knocks down the damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agi = Accuracy, evasion and minor armor class.  Many people ask whether it effects chance to dodge, or ac.  I believe it does both.  Large amounts of agi noticably help avoidance.  You can see the +AC you get from agi items.  It's more or less trivial by mid level, but its still there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only things i'm really unclear on is blocking, reposite, and the effects of shields.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's been suggested that reposite goes off parry, as does block, or that block goes off deflection.  Sheild effects are also a bit confusing.  I think it was moorgard that said buckles give +20% deflection and round shields give +40%.  Bruisers will gain the +40% deflection, but won't gain the AC benefits.  Of course, if the AC bonus from shields isn't real, if it just is an improved block rate, then it doesn't matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's possible that deflection serves 2 purposes.  Block rate, and reduced damage.  Shields give a bonus to deflection either just for block rate, just for reduced damage, or both.  It's hard to say.</DIV>

[Deathbane27_aka_Mook]

<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:<blockquote><hr>Deathbane27 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE>The grey armor does give you whatever AC it displays. If a level 50 player wears level 10 armor, whatever AC is displayed will still count. </blockquote><hr></blockquote>Okay... but you just said "meaningless" and "worthless" in your post again. Although you state the facts, you still give the impression that you might as well un-equip it and sell it off, which is not the case. "Insignificant", maybe. "Worthless", no.<p>Message Edited by Deathbane27 on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Actually at a certain point, you would see virtually no difference between getting hit with your armor on and your armor off. So it will eventually become worthless.<hr></blockquote>I'm not talking about eventually<hr><blockquote>If you have level 10 equipment and fight a level 40 mob...</blockquote><hr>And I'm certainly not talking about THAT. I only referred to it because I was quoting Moorgard.I'm talking about "uber" level 40-ish raid-tier gear that just turned gray when I hit level 50, but still has higher AC and stats than non-gray common drops, store-bought, and crude-grade crafted. You would not want to replace the former with the latter EVER.And no, not even the level 10 stuff would ever become completely worthless. Never underestimate the value of a single hit point.<p>Message Edited by Deathbane27 on <span class=date_text>01-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:31 AM</span>

[Tys]

<DIV>Jez, so what is the answer to the Bouncer vs. Brawler's Stance question?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tysun</DIV> <DIV>29 Bruiser</DIV>

[Miyu-Lega]

Since Defense is now known as avoidance, Bouncer.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>Well.. then why did Moorguard say in this very thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><U>Defense</U>, parry, <U>deflection</U>, agility, and shields all affect your chance to avoid physical attacks. They don't impact mitigation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>So either it's not working again... Moorguard left in a skill in his list there that he didn't mean to... or Windy's experience is skewed somehow and the skill really does affect avoidance, not mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until I've personally tested/witnessed it myself, I'll take the word of a developer over "some guy" (no offense Windy), but I'll keep a healthy dose of doubt too.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Tysun wrote:<DIV>Jez, so what is the answer to the Bouncer vs. Brawler's Stance question?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Tysun</DIV><DIV>29 Bruiser</DIV><hr></blockquote>I wish I had a definate, to the point, answer to the above question. Unfortunately I do not and was hoping Moorgard would have responded to that, which was originally the intention of bringing this thread to his attention, but it got sidetracked to Avoidance/Mitigation diuscussion instead.Though I still feel Bouncer and Retaliation does not live up to the effects that Brawler's Stance adds.As it is now, at lvl 47 the skills look like this.Adept 3 Brawler's Stance gives+7 Defense+5 DeflectionAdept 1 Bouncer gives+9 Defense+10 PhysicalityAdept 1 Retaliation+10 Defense+10 Physicality+ Chance to Counter-Attack when hit, counters with a blitz like attack.The effect of Physicality is that it allows you to use your Yellow/Orrange skills based on the Physicality skill more effectivly, this has no effect on White/Blue/Green/Grey con as far as I can tell. This because with Yellow and Orrange skills you still have a way to go before getting maximum benefit from a skill.The counter-attack on retaliation doesn't happen very often, I searched through a log where I tanked in fast grinding group in Permafrost for several hours, and the proc rate was nothing near impressive.I'd rather lose 3 points in Defense, give up the minor benfit of a higher physicality skill, give up the chance to counter-attack every now and then, and gain a higher block rate from an increase in our Deflection skill.I would rather see Physicality on our Defensive stances swapped out with Deflection, and have Roughhouse/Renalt's Deadly Advance/Brawl changed so they have the Physicality skill instead, allowing for more offense when doing "raw" DPS, and less offense more defense when tanking.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>And while their at it... make it so the Bob and Weave line either stacks the Deflection bonus, or give some different effect... so as not to render the constant line's bonus useless 50% of a fight.</P>

[Dahlrek]

<blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:<blockquote><hr>Tysun wrote:<DIV>Jez, so what is the answer to the Bouncer vs. Brawler's Stance question?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Tysun</DIV><DIV>29 Bruiser</DIV><hr></blockquote>...I'd rather lose 3 points in Defense, give up the minor benfit of a higher physicality skill, give up the chance to counter-attack every now and then, and gain a higher block rate from an increase in our Deflection skill.....<hr></blockquote>The problem I have with your statement there, is the assumption that 7 Defense/5 Deflection is better than 10 Defense. Given the apparently high sensitivity to small changes in these skills, I see no reason to assume that one is better than the other. Maybe that extra +3 Defense helps you clear some critical threshold relative to the mob's offensive skills, shifting them into a high-wiff-rate bracket, whereas the +5 Deflection only grants a marginal improvement. I think it's something that needs to be thoroughly parsed, and I would not be shocked to find that it's situational.