Official Class Balance Thread: Concerns / Suggestions for the Bruiser

[benisbor]

<DIV>I'm going to try to consolidate my qualms with the Bruiser here. Roleplay inadequacy aside, the Bruiser subclass seems to be drastically underpowered. The reasons are listed below:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) AC benefit is ridiculously low when compared to a mitigation level that does not compensate for it in the least. At level 23 with completely orange gear I have approximately 800ac. A few other Bruisers report the same. However, this AC level with the same level Guardian with the same level gear is much, much higher. Now, this would be fine if the Bruiser's defense was able to compensate for the low AC in the form of dodge, block, etc., but it just isn't enough. I can't get into the math because I don't know where to begin, but I do know this: white-con mobs drop me like I'm nothing in only a few seconds. Guardians and other fighters last. This is a serious contradiction with the initial promise of Sony. I recognize that Bruiser's can't be equal, but the 2nd reason on this list explains why they are far, far from the mark.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Damage doesn't compare to scouts. If Bruiser damage output was greater, perhaps we might be able to overlook the fact that they die faster than wizards. As it is, their damage output doesn't come close to comparing to an Assassin or Brigand. Ironically, in three groups of mine Brigand's and Assassins have been able to easily tank white, yellow, and orange mobs when needed--probably because of the fact that thei AC is much, much higher than the Bruiser's. The same mobs ate me alive. Why is it that scouts seem better able to both absorb damage, even if they aren't meant to, and better able to deal it? Where dooes the Bruiser gain its role?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Bruisers have no role. Pulling doesn't work like it used to. In the past Monks were the diehard pullers in the majority of situations (try harmony pulling ToV, Emp guards, whatever -- not as effective). At present I'm not seeing FD or FD pulling as a valid option in the least. So now that pulling is not an option, we have the typical two options left for the Bruiser: tanking and damage. In a tanking situation there is no way on this earth a group would ever invite a Bruiser over a Guardian, Berserker, Paladin, Shadow Knight, etc. As for damage, I'd rather have a scout, and my remaining LFG for quite some time in comparison to LFG scouts in the same zone (who usually get picked first) seems to indicate that others would rather have scouts, too. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not know yet whether I will change classes. I play for fun, not to be "the best," so I will probably remain with the Bruiser despite a constant desire to move into a class that actually has respect. And granted, it may be that my concerns will become obselete once Bruisers hit 50; but I'm not so sure. Unless FD pulling all of a sudden becomes an option, and unless scouts stop increasing their damage output (not likely in the least), I can't see the Bruiser as having any distinct role either in a guild situation or in a group. I would say the ideal group would be: SK/Pally/Guardian/Berserker--2 of any healer--Enchanter--1 scout (assassin, brigand, etc.)--1 wizard. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A mage could be thrown in for the wizard -- not super important. Either way, the Bruiser isn't in there. It's quite sad. If anyone disagrees, feel free to enter into a polite discussion about this stuff. If anyone agrees, the same applies. Statistics, parsings, concrete numbers -- anything and everything will help. It's a good idea for us to begin getting a conception early of where the Bruiser falls so that potential balancing issues can be resolved--if they are to be resolved--before too long.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jezekie]

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.You've failed to understand what makes us a viable tank since you're pointing out our low AC. Our lower AC is due to not having anything better then Light Armor, where as Crusaders/Warriors use Heavy Armor, thus the higher AC (mitigation). They on the other hand have lower avoidance, both in skills and AGI stat usually.What a bruiser needs to focus on is a high agility aswell as the Martial Focus/Brawler's Stance lines and as high as possible (app3/adept1, as well as Staggering Stance (for the agi buff), we rely on avoiding, not soaking up the damage.Then comes the tools such as bruising spirit which allows us to match the ac and even surpass at times, that of the Heavy Armor wearers at the cost of a health drain. Or Ignore Pain to self heal when we don't avoid those 500 damage hits, or when we get a bad streak of hits.On to your second point, our damage is NOT supposed to match that of scouts. Scouts are a DPS/Utility line. If you want to compare us DPS wise, compare the Paladin/Shadowknight line with the Guardian/Berzerker, vs Monk/Bruiser. And I find the class to be quite favorable here with the right weapons/adept skills.3rd point, I can fit in to ghetto Crowd Control, Tanking, or DPS roles. I find that more then favorable, and am quite happy if I'm DPS/CC, or just tanking with the occasional CC. I've also had to be puller while not being the tank, though that happens far less then other situations, because If I'm tanking I pull my self. FD can still be used for pulling when you're fighting in crowded areas, get a bad pull? Leg it instead of bringing it to the group, then try and FD it off.I havn't been able to locate a log parser yet for DPS comparisons, but if you know of one we can get the hard numbers on the table.

[Dovifat]

Tanking as a Bruiser requires a little more work than tanking with a plate wearer - it is however still perfectly viable. At level 24 i have no problems tanking yellow ^^, or groups of yellows, provided i have a shaman or a druid as healer, clerics in my experience dont work too well, maybe just too many of them are still in their old spam-direct-heals mentality.There are three keys to success:- Always, and i mean always, keep all mobs beating on you in your front angle. Thats where parry/block/riposte works. If they hit you from behind, they will rip you apart.- Use your defensive skills, Brawlers Stance, Martial Focus, Bruising Spirit, etc. Have them upgraded as high as possible. Also use Jeer and the other Crowd Control means you have, if theres no chanter in your team.- Have appropriate gear. Relying on avoidance doesnt mean you can slack off with your armor. Against casters tier3 jewelry helps a lot as well - with the added resistances i find myself shrugging off so many more of them evil nukes.Of course, if tanking and nothing else is your priority, then a guardian would be the better choice. As Bruiser i however can fill a dps role as well as a minor CC role, thats something a guardian cant.<p>Message Edited by Dovifat on <span class=date_text>11-28-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:51 AM</span>

[Moski]

<DIV>"tanking as a bruiser is little more work"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i agree with that and i dislikle it for some reason:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have to use skills to tank. we cant tank all the time becasue of the recast time of our skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for example:</DIV> <DIV>u are fighting an encounter and u use ur skills (bruising spirit/martial defense) to tank that encounter.</DIV> <DIV>fight is close and u win.</DIV> <DIV>then u get a add casue of aggro mobs. u cant aktivate ur skill bruising spirit and martial focus casuse of</DIV> <DIV>   a) retimer is counting and skill is not up</DIV> <DIV>   b) lack of power cause u just finished a encounter and had no time to regain power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A plate/vanguard tank can always tank. the Armor works always. He dont have to use a skill so he dont have to wait for a recasttime for a skill and he dont need to have power to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the example above the plate/vanguard tank can tank while we cant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Roddy]

<DIV>You cant tell us to compare ourselves to a guardian dps wise.. seriously give me a break! Bruisers <-- what is that name soposed to mean. To me we are DPs first tank second. When you guys get to higher levels you go try your methods and tank as hard as you can. Yes you will be alive i promise. But your healer will have no more mana and down time will be horrible. You will be at the brink of death the whole fight. I have 110 agi with buffs. Some how i still get tossed around like a rag doll. So i rather just be dps. i mean if your attack is at 655 why the hell not. Mine is higher than some assassins that i group with. I cant compeate with that crazy one shot hit for 1,300 damage one shot. But after that one shot its at an even playing field and bruisers can actually compete. Maybe we will be better once our traits and skillz gets put in eh? just mho we are all entitled to one. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>RoddyRo wrote:<DIV>You cant tell us to compare ourselves to a guardian dps wise.. seriously give me a break! Bruisers <-- what is that name soposed to mean. To me we are DPs first tank second. When you guys get to higher levels you go try your methods and tank as hard as you can. Yes you will be alive i promise. But your healer will have no more mana and down time will be horrible. You will be at the brink of death the whole fight. I have 110 agi with buffs. Some how i still get tossed around like a rag doll. So i rather just be dps. i mean if your attack is at 655 why the hell not. Mine is higher than some assassins that i group with. I cant compeate with that crazy one shot hit for 1,300 damage one shot. But after that one shot its at an even playing field and bruisers can actually compete. Maybe we will be better once our traits and skillz gets put in eh? just mho we are all entitled to one. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><hr></blockquote>First of I took a bruiser to 34 in beta, so I do know how well we tank. Secondly you're not supposed to match scouts in DPS, you're not a DPS class, It has no relevance what your view on the class is,the only thing that matters is the facts. And facts show that we aren't a DPS class (mages, and scouts to some extend is).Here in retail I've tanked with suppar gear, and group never complained, and the kills were fast.You're obviously doing something wrong, or the players you group with are doing something wrong if you constantly are near death when tanking. That or you're taking on too high level mobs, you're NOT supposed to be able to tank orranges reliably, no class is.So please, drop that "when you get higher levels" crap.

[ShadyShane]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>I completely disagree as well maybe assassins and such way out damaged you before ,but when I hit level 20 my attack took a big jump almost to 400 now and that is at level 20.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN> There is no other class that I have seen whose attack is really even close to mine since I hit 20 except other bruisers. Maybe you should continue to play your character and get him leveled and an actual class selected before you just go on these silly rants. This is I believe your 3rd if not 4th rant on about how much bruisers suck.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN> So either play him and get him leveled or quit and get a new character either way this is getting old. Especially with all the incorrect information you are spewing everywhere.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN> Abominoare level 20 Bruiser Kithicor Server</SPAN></P></DIV>

[benisbor]

<DIV>I truly don't appreciate the antagonism with which the post has been treated. If you do not agree with the post, as I stated, then feel free to politely enter into a discussion. Post your counter arguments until your heart is content, but be civil. If at any point a person posts in this forum disliking an aspect of the Bruiser class only to be responded to with "shut up and quit, then" or "then level your guy idiot," this will degenerate into a useless forum for needless ego stroking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That having been said, to respond to ShadyShane. You do not seem to realize it -- I'm level 28 now. When I posted this I was level 24. The rule still applies. Scouts have been consistently outdamaging me in every group. If done right Heroic Opportunities are allowing them to hit now for over 1500 damage (see the max-hit on this site). You insult me, but provide no numbers to prove your own incase. I don't understand that. If you are so sure of yourself to the point of angrily responding to me with rude remarks, perhaps providing some true analysis would be important. Your post seemed to imply that I wasn't even level 20, yet. How you gained that perception, I'm not sure. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want this to be a thread for class balance discussion, not insults. Within this thread some good ideas could be posited, but it needs to be constructive. </DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>benisbored wrote:<DIV>Scouts have been consistently outdamaging me in every group</DIV><hr></blockquote>As it should be, why do you keep bringing up the scouts in this discussion? We aren't supposed to match them DPS wise, so it's only naturally that they are out-damaging us.

[Kenter]

<DIV>While I am always a proponent of class balancing, I whole heartedly disagree the the main post here.  I have been main tank in Edgewater Drains in the low 20's & in Ruins of Varsoon in the mid 20's.  I have been told on numerous occasions by healers that they are in fact using less power to heal me then plate classes.  Being a main tank as a bruiser is doable, but it takes all of our skills to pull it off.  And we do outdamage guardians/Paladins/Shadow Knights, so thats a plus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where we struggle as a main tank is in contolling aggro on multi-mobs/groups.  But I have discovered a secret weapon to control aggro over groups.  You guys will just have to hunt me down & beat it outa me, because I don't want it nerfed.  I would like to see alittle more damage & PLEASE start letting Bruiser adepts drop.  They seem to be the most rare skill improves in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah, And We are still great pullers.  You can still use FD to stop a bad pull or to carry a rez item for recovery.  A plate class just has to eat it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kentero</DIV> <DIV>www.thelostlegion.com</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kenterro on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[benisbor]

<DIV>Jezekial:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure what merit there is to this claim, but I was told by friend, who claims to have learned this via offical Sony declaration, that Scouts were in fact not supposed to be the primary damage dealers (as rogues once were in eq1). Of course, we all knew that this was a bust to begin with, but the principal is something worth considering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But whether or not scouts were intended to be the max damagers, the thing that worries me most is the lack of the role of the Bruiser. Precisely because we can't do the most damage and we can't tank like Guardians means that we've not got anything great going on. </DIV>

[RDescha]

<DIV><FONT size=2>I'm not trying to sound antagonistic or rude, but by how many posts I've seen of yours by now...It seems a lot like complaining...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>First off, half the nitwits out there don't realize who can do what anyways. I was told today by a wizard I'm not a tank, when, as many others have said, we can outtank plate classes at times. The wizard (very wise person, let me tell you) also told me I am nothing but DPS. Well, if we don't come close to scout damage I'm not sure how anyone, big of an idiot as they might be, would come to that conclusion...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT size=2>Just because we can have multiple roles doesn't mean we don't have one...And even if scouts do outdamage us (debatable, HOs aren't very dependable if you haven't noticed, and their pure melee as far as I've seen isn't just OMGZOLLY worthy..) wait till you see one take a riposte and die. Bet ya wish he was a bruiser right now, huh? If I wanted DPS with secondary tank capabilities, pulling capabilities, and the ability to FD and get us all rezzed deep in a dungeon somewhere...Am I gonna pick a scout or a bruiser?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I think this a case of "the grass is greener on the other side", but I could be wrong. You seem very unhappy with the bruiser class, so I would suggest choosing another one...Like I said, this is one of your many posts here (one of the few/only) making negative comments about the bruiser class. I love my bruiser, I love how I perform in groups, I love just about everything about it. Even IF I didn't have a "main role" or wasn't the biggest DPS, I would still play a bruiser. I don't necessarily feel that way, but it's not all about being the best at everything. I played a ranger in EQ1, and I leveled him to 64, got an elemental bow, but never quite reached AM3. That ranger didn't have a solid "role", but I still loved him...I had a 65 shaman at the time, who had a pretty sound role in groups...Big deal, it's about what is fun not what is the most important. You want to have a solid role go play a cleric or a chanter.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV><BR>Sorry, not trying to sound rude/mean/antagonistic, but the "discussion" is getting old...I don't think one other bruiser has agreed in any one of your posts by this point. And like I said, if you're so unhappy with the class, quit posting about how bad they suck and pick a new one, the game is about FUN.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Just thought I'd clarify, I know you agree with some of the stuff I said, but the posts seem to contradict it..I'm just advising less talk and more action on the subject.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also thought I'd add...Scouts are tanking better than you? What the hell kind of gear do you have? Con color doesn't mean everything people. You need to look at gear like you did in EQ1, whats the AC, whats the primary stats you need on it (STR, STA, AGI, in our case)...Not just "Oh it's orange sweet upgrade"...Are you using all your defensive abilities?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not sure why you're having so much trouble, really...Granted, we're not guardians at higher levels but there's no way in hell you should be getting outtanked by a scout...Out-DPSed, conceivable, shouldn't always be the case either...But so far, I've not had any trouble tanking, nor putting out damage...Love the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think it might be the player rather than the game? O-o</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An option no one seems to have explored yet, but definitely a valid argument..</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by RDeschain on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:29 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by RDeschain on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 PM</span>

[RDescha]

<DIV><SPAN><FONT size=2><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-21-2004 </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:38 PM </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2>In your other post "Bruisers: The lamest subclass in EQ?"...At the above time and date you stated you're level 17...<BR><BR>Now in this post at....</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56 size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN><FONT size=2><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-29-2004</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:50 PM</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2>8 days later...You claim that you're level 28...<SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>(edited to show the time, scroll up to read for yourself...) </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><BR></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2>Now, either there is some serious hardcore nonstop playing going on here...Or you're just a liar.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2>Care to clarify? Not saying it's not possible...I could be completely wrong. I know with a job and just everyday life I couldn't make 11 levels (Especially post-20 HARD levels) in 8 days time...Maybe if I spent the ENTIRE 8 days..but...</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><FONT size=2>So, you wouldn't have lied to us, would you?</FONT></DIV></SPAN></SPAN> <P><FONT size=2>Message Edited by RDeschain on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2004</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:50 PM</SPAN></FONT></P><p>Message Edited by RDeschain on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 PM</span>

[psubull]

<DIV>Bruiser is just a jack of all trades.  Best at everything and nothing at the same time.</DIV>

[psubull]

<DIV>One thing i've noticed.  Bruiser is one of, if not THE rarest class out there on every server at the moment.  Doesn't that strike SOE as odd?  If the class is unfavorable, make it so more people play it.  I personally am a fan of the bruiser, and always will be.  I can do everything a melee is expected: Tank, DPS, Aggro.  I just have to work harder and use most of my power per fight.  However, I have been noticing that there is a skill imbalance between bruiser and every other melee (a big one between monk and bruiser).  Other classes have two or three, up to four abilities more by the time they are 28.  Now, it isn't much to ask that SOE throws in an additional ability seeing as we only get one at 25, while monk gets two.  All I am asking for is a new attack or ability that doesn't overlap any previous ability.  Maybe another Bruising Strike type ability: Costing HP to deal high damage (while not overwriting bruising strike).  Or a berserk-type buff, increasing attack speed and damage for ten seconds while decreasing AC and dodge/deflection/parry by a good amount.  One more idea is a DOT, sort of like the Maul ability that bears possess.<BR></DIV> <DIV>All I want is this:  A class that isn't just a monk with different ability names.  Bruisers should inflict pain upon their enemies/prey.  As it stands now, we're monks without the evasion.  Give us a new line of pain-causing abilities.  Not because we don't do the damage that scouts do.  Not because we don't tank as well as the other Fighter lines.  Give us new pain-causing, damage inflicting abilities because we are supposed to have them.  Monks get their finesse and get to dodge/deflect better than us, so we should be able to hurt more than they do.</DIV>

[Mojobac]

<DIV>I think that those saying that Brawler vs. Scout DPS is an invalid argument because Scouts are supposed to deal the damage (and I agree) should look closely at the last part:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><EM>"2) Damage doesn't compare to scouts. If Bruiser damage output was greater, perhaps we might be able to overlook the fact that they die faster than wizards. As it is, their damage output doesn't come close to comparing to an Assassin or Brigand. Ironically, in three groups of mine Brigand's and Assassins have been able to easily tank white, yellow, and orange mobs when needed--<STRONG><U>probably because of the fact that thei AC is much, much higher than the Bruiser's. The same mobs ate me alive. Why is it that scouts seem better able to both absorb damage, even if they aren't meant to, and better able to deal it?</U></STRONG> Where dooes the Bruiser gain its role?"</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers can wear Light armor.  Assassins/Brigands can wear Medium armor.  Granted they don't get Deflection... but by default a scouts Agility is going to be higher than a Bruisers.  Thusly they will be afforded a "slightly lower than a Bruisers" active defenses while enjoying a much higher passive defensive and damage mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe there was a huge oversight by the QA team that lead to Bruisers not being allowed to wear Medium armor while the Scouts can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the gist of the Point #2.  While I don't agree with some of what Benisbored has said on these forums, I do tend to agree on this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I don't think we should out-tank a Guardian or out-damage an Assassin/Brigand, but from the looks of things... Assassins and Brigands are better at our roles than we are.</DIV></DIV>

[RDescha]

<DIV>Deflection has been bugged. Read the "Defense Concerns" post, there is a link on page 3 (or whatever the last page is). There is a quote from Moorgard saying that deflection hasn't been working and to quote "has had a big impact on monks and bruisers".</DIV>

[Aeger]

Either Bruiser damage needs to be considerably increased to be higher than that of the other fighter sub-classes, or we need a significant boost to our dodge/parry/riposte abilities and/or AC. Our mitigation is crap. And having skills that boost our survivability for maybe 5 seconds is woefully inadequate compared to what other classes get.

[Manuel]

<DIV>The DPS and hate im getting at 22 suggests me that our defensive abilities should be lower than yer average bear, since im outdamaging 90% scout-types I group with. I feel ya, were getting absurdly beaten, but --> Deflection is bugged -- let´s wait n see what the next patch brings us -- </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a sidenote, these are the services my Bruiser offers when LFG, maybe they can inspire ya:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>High DPS and Caster Bodyguarding</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Them casters just love it!</DIV>

[Alfdis]

<DIV>I have to admit that I am quite happy with my Bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Sure, we lack the AC of most other classes, but with a Shaman in my group I dont care. There is not always a Shaman around in every group, but when you group with them the Bruiser is doing very well. As it was mentioned in a thread on this board certain combinations of Priest/Fighter subclasses work better than others. If there is some other tank around who can better perform the role as MT in a given situation then that is ok and I will let him do the job. I think the Guardian is better at tanking more mobs at the same time than the Bruiser, but that is ok, I can still do it when I have to. Scout classes tank surely tank as well ...but they can`t keep the aggro or tank the big bad ^^ mobs. As a bruiser I am best at tanking the high level ^^ mobs...I have no problem with keeping the aggro and still stand at the end of the fight. Larger groups and adds are a little more difficult to handle, but usually they are no problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) I don´t do as much damage as a Scout or a Mage subclass...so what? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  My job is to keep the aggro and to take the damage so the rest of my group can do what they are supposed to do: healing, damage dealing or whatever they are good at. As a Bruiser I don`t expect to deal the highest damage of all the subclasses... all I expect is to be the best damage dealing tank and I think I am <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Bruisers have not one role, they have more than one. </DIV> <DIV>I can be the MT in a group with two or more tanks. I use my defensive stances and lower my damage output, but I tank pretty good.</DIV> <DIV>I can be secondary tank in a group with more than one tank. I switch to my offensive stances and push my damage. I can still take over if the other tank fails.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My biggest problem with the Bruiser at this time is with the "Jeer" ability. Once I realized how it worked I liked it...but because of the weird/bugged pathing of the mobs in dungeons it is quite useless at the moment and I have to fall back on my "Shout" ability. Feared mobs in dungeons move through walls and after that they get lost ... locking my group in combat and no idea where the mob is. We either have to search the dungeon for the mob (which is a bad idea because the Health/Power regenration rates are too low in combat) or we have to relog. I hope this will be fixed soon since it really screws up my cc and aggro keeping abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alfdis</DIV>

[RDescha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aegeras wrote:<BR>Either Bruiser damage needs to be considerably increased to be higher than that of the other fighter sub-classes, or we need a significant boost to our dodge/parry/riposte abilities and/or AC. Our mitigation is crap. And having skills that boost our survivability for maybe 5 seconds is woefully inadequate compared to what other classes get.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT size=2>Did you not read the post right above yours?</FONT></DIV>

[benisbor]

<DIV>I play each day from about 3 to 12. No lying going on -- hardcore playing. </DIV>

[Tren]

Is it me or did i not get the memo that stated playing EQ2 was a job? Last time a checked ... EQ2 was a GAME.. play what you like and have fun ... this is not a direct flame to anyone .. this is just my opinion on all the "This class sucks becasue waaaaaaaaah" posts. I say if you find yourself gettign frustrated over the class you chose, create another! You get 4 characters to play with. My primary toon is a Necromancer, and as much as I love the fact that i have a pet, Im not happy with the damage i deal out .. so guess what i did ... i created a new character .. a Bruiser to be exact. All im saying is if you dont like your class, youre not stuck like chuck.Just my 2cp

[EmptySki]

<DIV>Have you guys used Bruising Spirit (Adept III) yet?</DIV> <DIV>I have more AC than a lvl 40 guardian at lvl 38.  Even with Appr 1 Bruising spirit you have more AC than any Tank you will come across... But you better have a druid for regen or a Shaman for ward.   I NEVER invite a tank in my group, I always tank, and get like 3 other DPS.  Assassin/2 Wizzys/2 Healers.  With the right stance you can be DPS or Meatshield your choice. If you want to tank, ALWAYS keep all the mobs infront of you, you wont get hit, and if you do, it wont be for much.  Always use Bob and Weave(Martial Focus if you dont got B+W)/Toughness.  I never had a problem tanking from lvl 1-39.  I find bruisers to be very well rounded... and soon to be overpowered/complained about from tanks.</DIV>