Defense concerns

[VettsVey]

<DIV>Ok I know as Bruisers we avoid damage or redirect it other than taking it.  So far I have seen Shadowknights and Guardians taking way less damage in group encounters, than I do.  I am getting brutaly beaten to a pulp during just one encounter.  My Armor is all Orange con minus my helm which cons blue.  I use Brawlers Stance (App2) and Martial Focus (Adept 1).  My Parry and Deflection are maxed as well. My stat items are between white and blue con.  Where as my friends Guardian is all in blue to green Armor, and losing maybe 1 bar of health, and I am losing 3 or more.  Has anyone else encountered this, or give me some insight into what I may be doing wrong?  Postioning encounters or something....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, lack of aggro abilities mid-teens thru early 20's?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by VettsVey on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 PM</span>

[Jezekie]

A high agility is critical, you need to be using staggering stance, and preferebly agi buffs from Druids and or bards.

[benisbor]

<DIV>Heh. This is not an issue of high agility. The Bruiser is significantly underpowered. Some severe, and I mean severe, class balancing needs to be instituted. It's not we can just go out and get some ring with +100 AGI or something. I'm in the same boat -- all of my gear is orange. I'm in about the best gear for my level that can be attained. Meanwhile, other Fighters 2 - 3 levels lower than me are tanking mobs with crappy gear and taking half the damage. It's ridiculous. </DIV>

[VettsVey]

<DIV>Glad I wasnt the only one seeing the problem here.  Its bad enough that the only 2 taunts we have up to mid 20's is Taunting slap and Shout.  To compansate for the lack of taunts we dual weild to create more aggro... well guess what, you also get slapped back by mobs riposte, along with thier normal attacks.  Does deflection and Parry even work?  Sure it says it increases....  but is it even effective vs the amount of damage these mobs dish out on our light armor defense rating?  I see Guardians with over 1.1k defense... while same level Bruisers have barely half that.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personnally I dont see deflection and parry abilities working as effectively as they should be.   </DIV>

[TheBlackWi]

<DIV>I think that we just accept the fact that we are going to be a preferred secondary tank, which really isn't so bad. We do very high damage for a fighter, and we don't tank nearly as well as a guardian. I really don't see the problem with that, and I like my class just the way it is to be completely honest. I've yet to have a priest tell me that I take way too much damage and that he can't heal me fast enough. Mabye that time will come, we will just have to see.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

"I think that we just accept the fact that we are going to be a preferred secondary tank"Not really, I don't have problems tanking, and I don't see where these issues steam from.

[Windy]

<DIV>I have no problems tanking either.  I avoid most attacks, do good damage, and take less damage than the scouts per hit, even though they have higher armor class.  It's been awhile since i've grouped with another tank, but i've never seen a tank that could hold a candle to me.  Thats not bluff and ego, thats just the way it is.  I've been primary tank in pretty much every party i've been in, and never had any sort of troubles.</DIV>

[Oidan]

<DIV>Go to your chat and disable all of the clutter like spells and other hits/misses, mobs misses etc. You will how much you dodge block etc.</DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>lvl 26 Ogre Bruiser here</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i dont have problems to tank up to yellow con 2ArrowUp mobs. But i need 2 healers to tank that. And my healers always hate to heal me because my tanking is depending on my skill-rolls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i cannot prove this but i guess the way my tanking works is like that:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mob_001 attacks me (makes a attack roll)</DIV> <DIV>I_bruiser_001 tries to defend (i make a defense roll) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) My defense roll is higer than the attack roll of mob_001 = mob_001 misses</DIV> <DIV>2.) My defense roll is lower than the attack roll of mob_001 </DIV> <DIV>     2.1) I try to parry/block the sucessfull attack of mob_001 so i roll my parry/block skill against the sucessful attack</DIV> <DIV>            2.2) My parry/block roll is sucessull = i parry/block the attack and take no damage</DIV> <DIV>            2.3) My parry/block roll is lower than the sucessfull attack from mob_001</DIV> <DIV>                 2.3.1) I try to deflect some damage and so i make a deflection roll </DIV> <DIV>                    2.3.2) My defelction roll is higer than the sucessfull attack from mob_001 = i avoid some damage</DIV> <DIV>                    2.3.3) My defelction roll is lower = i take a lot of damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here is the Problem for me / my healer. There are some fights where i am very lucky and i manage to block/parry or deflect a lot of attacks against me.</DIV> <DIV>But there are fights where i am not able to parry/block cause i have bad luck and have some bad rolls. In this case i take a few very hard hits and i my health goes down from 100% to 10% in about 2 or 3 hits. This is when my healer and i gets very nervous  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In comparison a plate/vanguard tank arent based on all the defensive/avoidance skill rolls. So they arent based on Luck. The Healer of a plate/vanguard tank gets the feeling when the tank needs a heal cause the HP-Loss of a plate/vanguard tank is more calculatable because the armor-mitigation works every time the plate/vanguard tank is hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunt: Up to lvl 23/24 i never had a problem with holding aggro. Since 24 its getting harder. I only have Taunting Slap (Single Taunt - deals no damage btw like the description says) and Jeer (Group Taunt - while the Targetet Mob of the Encounter is feared - does not work like the description btw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV> <DIV>The recast time of Jeer is like 30 sec. I always pull with Jeer. Heres the first "problem". If people do not know the Bruiser-Skills  they wonder why my target runs away. Its boring when the Pets of my group mates attack the fleeing/feared mob. I try to explain them that they have to wait till i changed my target - but they forget so fast <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Next problem (real Problem for me): If the encounter lasts more than 30 sec i need to hold aggro and i have to re-use Jeer (i dont have another ae-taunt) and if i jeer again my target runs away because of fear effect. So i have to change target again. This is very anoying and i hope the next ae-taunt dont has that fear affect. (or they change jeer that 1 mob of the encounter is feared BUT NOT my target)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. please dont blame my bad english - i am not a native speaker <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>sorry double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Moskito on <span class=date_text>11-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 AM</span>

[Oidan]

<DIV>That is interesting to say the least. So you use a fear spell to switch targets because our lack of ae taunt? I just wanted to clarify that. I just got Jeer and was thinking it was an oh bleep spell...everyone run. Is the taunt factor on Jeer decent?</DIV>

[Moski]

<DIV>i am using Jeer app III</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the taunt aspect is ok - but its very very annoying that alwys the targettet mob is running away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if the fight lasts longer because u have a 4 or 5 mob encounter and u have to re-taunt to protect ur healer u have 2 options</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Jeer and ur targeted mob (that has lost a lot of health at that time because ur group has targeted it) runs away and u have to pick another mob (at nearly full health at that time)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Change Target and Jeer (so that a mob at near full health runs away) and try to change back to the nearly dead mob. (that isnt as easy as it reads when u have a encounter with 4 or 5 mobs and ur group members need to know that u change targets nw and then to taunt)</DIV>

[Oidan]

<DIV>Ok, I got it now. Tks for the info. </DIV>

[Roddy]

<DIV>First off face it we are the emergency tanks. You get beated down when you try to save a life from teamates telling you your not a tank. But when their behinds are in trouble they want you to tank and hold hate, even if a "real tank" isnt around. For me i am about the name Bruiser. That means deal damage which i think we can do a better job off. Wait till you get to higher levels and get bob and weave accuracy down for mobs plus bruisers spirit which adds 1k ac to your armor . Wait till you get agi plus items like mad on all your armor. Weather its light or very light use it it helps. Use all your buffs also. Stun Stun Stun we get lots of those skills which will slow down the monster form laying the smack on you. Instead of just standing there like a normal tank it takes alot more effort on our part to stay standing. 4 hits of 400-500+ damage is not cool at all but eh what you gonna do about it. Get a guardian that can hold hate turn up intimidating orders and your consentration power ups and starting dealing the 170- 220 damage a hit on special moves if you can hit that hard. The only thing is for them to turn up bruisers damage a notch. Last thing the skill that we get which we attack from behind needs to be powerd up. All that effort to get behind the target and hit less than a normal attack in their face.... not cool. Well ive said enough time to get back to class. Later guys</DIV>

[Ralid]

<DIV>I do feel our defense needs some tweaking, im not 100% sure its working as it is meant to be.  Don't get me wrong im not a totally useless tank, but I do feel a little hard done by.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something that I have noticed is that an NPCs special attacks, wild swing etc, never seem to be mitigated or dodged or whatever.  Now a plate tank would be able to mitigate some of this damage due to higher AC.  If i fight a mob that doesnt have the powerful specials they barely touch me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also it seems Scouts get everything, to a degree, they have high DPS, Medium Armor and by definition aim for high Agility.  Seems a little bit biased towards them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tested this on various mobs over various levels.  Maybe its just me, im just not totally happy about the defence side of things.  However, im loving my Bruiser <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2cp</DIV>

[Papgn]

<DIV>I honestly never saw a problem with Brawlers/Bruisers and their defence.  We wear light armor, and half the defence.  Makes sense considering we're not in Plate or Chain.  Even still, if I have two healers in the group...I can still Main Tank in a lot of situations...just not as well as a Plate wearing Fighter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians take beats, its what they do...they are built to stand there hold agro.  Why should Bruisers do high damage and still tank like a plate wearing fighter?  Makes no sense to me.  That doesn't mean Bruisers have no place in a group.  I still like to think I'm more than useful...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My normal group is: Guardian, Inquis, Bruiser, Wizard, Dirge, Another Healer type.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Guardian Pulls and is the MT.  Dirge assists the guardian and they beat down the mob.  I will either assist if its a single mob encounter, or I will use Jeer to fear the toughest mob.  Fearing the hardest mob gives the group a chance to burn down a few of the easier mobs.  I'm 23 almost 24, and using my 5 damage dealing arts I can put out at least 500 damage pretty quick.  If we aren't done taking down the easier mobs, I wait for Jeer to refresh and I fear the mob again.  The longest I've noticed having to take the feared mobs beats is 10 seconds...then they are feared again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anything I find I have more options not HAVING to hold agro.  I can move around to do what needs to be done.  Be it fearing a mob, burning down a caster type mob, pealing mobs off the healer or casters etc.  With the future arts that increase your AC and other abilities...I would asume I could do even more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Long story short, I love my Bruiser, and I can't imagine the class needing a huge overhall.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[runamonk]

<blockquote><hr>VettsVey wrote:<DIV>Glad I wasnt the only one seeing the problem here. Its bad enough that the only 2 taunts we have up to mid 20's is Taunting slap and Shout. To compansate for the lack of taunts we dual weild to create more aggro... well guess what, you also get slapped back by mobs riposte, along with thier normal attacks. Does deflection and Parry even work? Sure it says it increases.... but is it even effective vs the amount of damage these mobs dish out on our light armor defense rating? I see Guardians with over 1.1k defense... while same level Bruisers have barely half that. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Personnally I dont see deflection and parry abilities working as effectively as they should be. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Try standing behind the mob while fighting, you won't get hit by ripostes.

[VettsVey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> runamonk wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VettsVey wrote:<BR> <DIV>Glad I wasnt the only one seeing the problem here. Its bad enough that the only 2 taunts we have up to mid 20's is Taunting slap and Shout. To compansate for the lack of taunts we dual weild to create more aggro... well guess what, you also get slapped back by mobs riposte, along with thier normal attacks. Does deflection and Parry even work? Sure it says it increases.... but is it even effective vs the amount of damage these mobs dish out on our light armor defense rating? I see Guardians with over 1.1k defense... while same level Bruisers have barely half that. </DIV> <DIV>Personnally I dont see deflection and parry abilities working as effectively as they should be. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Try standing behind the mob while fighting, you won't get hit by ripostes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Kinda hard to stand behind the mob to tank, and that ever so annoying "problem" where the NPC your fighting just so happens to be right where your standing ( not sure that has any effect as it is rare ).  </P> <P>The NPC's special melee attacks do seem to hit, regardless.  Parry and deflection dont seem up to par.  Sure we can tank, hold aggro take hits...  but very few hits when it gets down to 224 per hit.  We are to be by nature balanced Fighters, doing thier core abilities. Hold aggro and take hits...  this is not possible.  </P> <P>Tell you what... go to Nek Forest, find those solo blue con crabs on the beach.... tell me how you fair against them.  If you can survive the fight with more than 40% health, then parry and deflection have no problems.</P>

[lordofdrago]

The purpose of a tank is to hold a mobs attention, to take the beating while the rest of the group lays it to rest. In groups of 4 to 6, we take on mobs that are MUCH tougher than use individually.Traditional, heavy armor tanks will, and should, always make the best tanks. They will get more often than we will but heavy plate should reduce the actual damage taken by a large amount. Heavy armor tank don’t plan on not getting hit, they plan on getting hit, surviving it and returning the favor. The heavy tanks should also have more hit points as well.As a Bruiser with no armor, we can't be surprised that we get beat badly in these circumstances. Our defense is based on avoiding blows. The problem in a large group is that we are not going to consistently avoid blows from mobs that have much higher attack skills than our defense skills. Our focus is NOT to be primary tank. We can off tank in a pinch, we can sometime intervene some damage of the primary tank to spread the damage and buy the primary more time between healing or intervene for the healer or casters. Our focus is to deal out melee damage. If we can deal out damage, help reduce the damage taken by others using stuns and knock downs or intervene some damage for some of the other group members, then we are doing our job. Balance is only a level 21 Bruiser, so I honestly don't know how well we fulfill our role in the medium and high end game but that’s I think how it should work.Balance Blackrain21 Half Elf Bruiser

[Neimhidh]

<DIV>You know, I have seen all these complaints before....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me be the first Monk to welcome you all to the [Removed for Content] club...</DIV>

[ganjookie]

Bruiser = HIGH DPS and taking alot of damage.We out damage normal tanks by about double, we just cant take what we give unfortunatley. I feel that this is working as intended, and have no problem with the currrent Bruiser makeup.

[VettsVey]

<DIV>Ok thanks all for the insight.  Though I am still a bit peeved that the possiblity of being the MT in the higher end portion of the game, I do like just being DPS with the occasional duties of pulling and off-tanking.  LOL especially since I gotten Jeer...  best "Save the Priest" ability.  Cant create enough aggro, too low on HP to use Staggering Stance?  Fear em! =)   Then quickly use FD to let MT regain control =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Definately more to us than I figured on.  </DIV>

[benisbor]

<DIV>Am I crazy, or is Shout being ignored? Everyone keeps talking about how Jeer is the only worthwhile thing they have as an AE taunt. Shout is an AE taunt just as Jeer is, and it actually works. I'm using Shout Adept 3 and one use in conjunction with the damage I'm already doing takes aggro off of anyone almost instantly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RDescha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> benisbored wrote:<BR> <DIV>Heh. This is not an issue of high agility. The Bruiser is significantly underpowered. Some severe, and I mean severe, class balancing needs to be instituted. It's not we can just go out and get some ring with +100 AGI or something. I'm in the same boat -- all of my gear is orange. I'm in about the best gear for my level that can be attained. Meanwhile, other Fighters 2 - 3 levels lower than me are tanking mobs with crappy gear and taking half the damage. It's ridiculous. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Let's blame all our problems we have on the class, rather than ourselves, shall we? All your gear is orange, congratulations...Please see my response to your post...Long story short, you need to look at more than the color...</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>The way you look at everything so 1 dimensional probably contributes to why you're a horrible bruiser...After all the "arguments" I'm pretty sure that's just what it comes down to, you're the only one who seems to be having these problems...As well as letting us know about them...constantly...</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>And BALANCING? You know what game you're playing? I feel bruisers are fine the way they are, but if you're hoping for us to get even more powered, I'd say go make another class. SoE is more about nerfing than "balancing" if you haven't taken notice yet...</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>As far as bruisers go as a class...redistribute the blame is all I have to say.</FONT></DIV>

[Icr]

<DIV>The fact is all fighters are suppose to do the same job tanking. Those who said that they are happy as secondary tanks only, im happpy for you. However according to SoE we are suppose to tank as effeciantly as all other fighters. We need to have an increase in dmg and an increase in deflection skills. I know we wont get it, but currently we are a hybrid class of eq2. We cant tank like other fighters, but do better than scouts. We dont do as much dmg as scouts, but do more than other fighters. We are a mix of the 2. Therfor I dont see a place for us in a grp. Most of the time the only reason I get a grp is because there are no scouts LFG and they need DPS.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Icrog wrote:<DIV>We need to have an increase in dmg and an increase in deflection skills</DIV><hr></blockquote>Not really. We're alright where we are currently.As RDeschain pointed out, there's more to the gear then just con color, since they seem to have dropped the concept of higher con armor providing more mitigation, then lower con.Those of you who are happy being 2nd tanks, fine, if you want to be that. But don't try to push that down everyones throat with false ideas of how the class truely is. Or go moaning about how underpowered we truely are, when infact we're just fine as it is.

[Ripp]

<DIV>I find the combination of 'Call to Arms' after the initial pull followed immediately by 'Shout' pretty much guaranteed me agro for the forseeable future of the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Call to Arms works as a group buff and it's agro is pretty substantial.  I've even used it during the middle of a fight when my taunt(s) are down to pull back a mob that has taken an interest in the mage/cleric/etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your milage may vary - but I thought I'd throw it out there.</DIV>

[Icr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote:<BR><BR>Those of you who are happy being 2nd tanks, fine, if you want to be that. But don't try to push that down everyones throat with false ideas of how the class truely is. Or go moaning about how underpowered we truely are, when infact we're just fine as it is.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>How can we be fine if the majority of Bruisers cannot tank as well as other fighters. We should not have to spend more money on equipment with certain stats to just keep up with other fighters. Im not complaining, I love my bruiser and wouldnt place another fighter class, im just stateing the facts.<BR>

[benisbor]

<DIV> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>I have to say, Rdeschain, you more are one of the rudest people I have met on these forums thus far. I have not attacked you in any way, nor have I insulted the skills of a single person here. If you feel somehow individually targeted by my dissatisfaction with the Bruiser, you must have some serious underlying insecurities yourself. After all, if you were truly so smug and complacent with your class, why would you go to all the trouble to be outwardly rude to me for no reason at all? In your most recent post you provided no constructive information for other readers, provided no analysis as to what you thought I might be doing wrong as a Bruiser—you simply told me that I was a bad Bruiser and looked at things one-dimensionally. Let me clarify a few things for you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>First, before you begin talking to me about the inclinations of Sony and their historical tradition of “nerfing” rather than balancing as if I’m some child who has never played eq1 before, hold your tongue. I played eq1 since day one, was in the Beta, and played a 65 Monk by the time I quit. I was there when Monks were <B>AWFUL</B>, and I was there when Verant improved the class significantly. So please, stop making baseless statements.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>As for my performance as a Bruiser, why you assume that I’m completely ignorant of my abilities completely escapes me. Yes, I have orange gear (this is still true – and I’m now 30). And whenever I posted saying that I was not happy with our tanking ability, please note that I have been using ALL of my abilities – Marshall Focus, Brawler’s stance, and various stuns – in every tanking situation. Even with these abilities my tanking has been subpar compared to the Guardian. Jezekiall has had other experiences. In large part I have been fighting orange mobs with the group, which may explain things, but as I’ve said before, like-level plate classes have had no problem.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>I look at nothing one-dimensionally. I realize that just having “orange gear” isn’t important. Obviously the skill of the player matters. However, let me be honest in telling you that it takes no genius to mash Brawler’s stance, so if you’re trying to infer something to the contrary you’re making a mistake. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>People need to get something firmly, and I<SPAN>  </SPAN>mean firmly, into their heads: the Bruiser forum is set up not so that we can post happy threads about how wonderful our class is while we get out some Vaseline and do a double. These forums are for criticisms just as much as they are for helpful information such as quests, etc. If a person posts with something that he feels Sony needs to address, other readers need to stop feeling personally insulted. If you like your class, GREAT! More power to you. But since these forums are likely read by Devs, they are good forum for appeal and thus should not be cluttered by mindless character bashing and completely factless assaults on the quality of someone’s playskill. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>It should be further understood that while I find some issues with the Bruiser not perfect, I still MUCH prefer it to every other class, so don’t instruct me to reroll. I love the fist-fighter, I love feign death – I love the aspect of one who uses his body as a tool to fight and I don’t like silly knights or spells (playing with them, anyway). That having been said, I think we should stop addressing Bruiser concerns, even if they are rants, with such hostility. Different players have different expectations and different receptions of gameplay. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[Drexel]

<DIV>Icrog:   Where did they say once we choose our subclasses that we will all be able to be Main tanks?  What they said was, n the begining game, everyone would be the same, and you would have time to make your choices before choosing your final subclass.   You will never be albe to tank like a Guardian, SOE never intened you to be able to.  nor will you be as effective at it as a Warrior, or probably even the crusader classes.  HOWEVER, you will always be able to get agro in a pinch, you will always be doin gmore damage then the meatsheilds, and you will always have a chance FD your way out of a jam.  You signe don for all this stuff.  If all you wan tto do is stand in frm of a group of mobs and get hit, you chose poorly, don't blame the game designers for building a very well balanced class...at least so far at least.  We will see once we all start hitting th higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Drexell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>Drexell2 wrote:<DIV>Icrog: Where did they say once we choose our subclasses that we will all be able to be Main tanks? What they said was, n the begining game, everyone would be the same, and you would have time to make your choices before choosing your final subclass. You will never be albe to tank like a Guardian, SOE never intened you to be able to. nor will you be as effective at it as a Warrior, or probably even the crusader classes. HOWEVER, you will always be able to get agro in a pinch, you will always be doin gmore damage then the meatsheilds, and you will always have a chance FD your way out of a jam. You signe don for all this stuff. If all you wan tto do is stand in frm of a group of mobs and get hit, you chose poorly, don't blame the game designers for building a very well balanced class...at least so far at least. We will see once we all start hitting th higher levels.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Drexell</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Moorgard in fact specifically stated that a Guardian would not be a better tank than a Bruiser. That was long ago, but i dont know of any newer statement.

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Icrog wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Jezekiell wrote:<BR><BR>Those of you who are happy being 2nd tanks, fine, if you want to be that. But don't try to push that down everyones throat with false ideas of how the class truely is. Or go moaning about how underpowered we truely are, when infact we're just fine as it is.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How can we be fine if the majority of Bruisers cannot tank as well as other fighters. We should not have to spend more money on equipment with certain stats to just keep up with other fighters. Im not complaining, I love my bruiser and wouldnt place another fighter class, im just stateing the facts.<BR><hr></blockquote>You do not speak for the majority of the bruisers, hardly a fraction is present on the forums, so because a select few are vocal about their dis-like/conserns about the current state of the bruiser, it doesn't mean everyone else shares your view. I'm certain you'd find it to be the other way around, that infact more enjoy the class as it is, versus players not being content with the class.There are some of you on this forum that need to drop the idea of Bruisers/Monks being created for pure DPS, and no tanking at all. When that's not the designers intent, nor is it a fact of real world preformance of both classes.So Icrog, you're hardly stating any facts.

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>benisbored wrote:<DIV><P>If you like your class, GREAT! More power to you. But since these forums are likely read by Devs, they are good forum for appeal and thus should not be cluttered by mindless character bashing and completely factless assaults on the quality of someone’s playskill</DIV><hr></blockquote>And that's all fine and dandy, on the other hand what this forum doesn't need, is people posting threads largly exaggerating on how the current class situation is, you'll see these apparent in both the Brawler, Monk and the Bruiser forums.The "assaults", are equally factless compared to the threads about the concerns of our Defense/Tanking, depending who you ask.There are those of us still playing the class since beta (Dovifat and my self atleast, probably others lurking about), that know what the content is atleast up until 34ish, and how the class compares to that, as well as what the intention for the class is. So when you see some "assault" from someone, it's more likly becasue that player actually has a fairly broad base of understanding about the class vs content, and allthough wordly poorly by some, they are still right to a certain extend.But alas, until someone hooks up a log parser to track Blocks, Parries, Dodges, Ripostes, it'll be someones word vs the world really.To take this thread in another direction, and stay on the original topic. I do find that Insquisitors does not function as well as a Fury or Defiler, when it comes to us tanking in groups. That's not to say they don't get the job done, they do. But it "feels" more efficient when there's a Fury or Defiler in the group. AGI and STR buffs are a welcomed addition to our class. Where as the Inquisitors has little to offer besides healing.

[IkkyScar]

<DIV>Ok let me start out by saying I'm a level 31 Bruiser on Crushbone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Put thy concerns away my fellow bruisers.  We can actually tank better in MANY situations then plate wearers, and it's starting to [Removed for Content] those plate wearers off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use Brawlers Stance (Bouncer is an upgrade to Brawlers but currently Bugged), and I combine it with Bob & Weave (upgrade to Martial Focus).  I get hit for WAY more then a tin can, but rightly so since I'm wearing light armor and he's wearing heavy.  However, I simply don't get hit.  I work best with a shamans wards.  I can literrally go through fights with 2 up arrow oranges and not lose a single ounce of health when I combine my skills w/a shamans wards.  Now it gets dicey when your in groups that don't kill fast and/or don't have a shaman.  I can still do it with an inquistor or fury but I don't do *as well*.  I still tank just fine though. With a Shaman, we are basically over-powered at this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note also this is against "big" mobs.  The two up arrow biggies is where we excel.  The 6 no arrow mob pulls can at times eat us up, since our parry/block/riposte/evade etc. is either based upon them being in front of us, or those skills go down the more attacks we have on us.  I.E.  I get hit a lot more vs multiple no arrow enemies then I do against one big 2 up arrow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't lose heart, you just need to find people who understand the power of the bruiser.  It's hard because Tin Can's INSIST they tank better, but once you make a Shaman friend, they quickly realize you make the better tank in a lot of instance and insist you tank from then on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guber--31 Bruiser Crushbone</DIV>

[Icr]

<DIV>Hey guber! =) <BR><BR>I dont think the majority of Bruisers will always grp with a shammy or should have to just to fullfill their role as a tank.<BR><BR>Scrubs<BR>25 Bruiser of Crushbone</DIV>

[Durlinn]

<DIV>Since when are monks tanks??? Fighters, yes. Tanks, no. Youre a damage dealer, not taker. I personally have had no problems tanking with mine, but certainly not as well as a plate armored fighter. This is how it should be. Eventually, the idea is to beat the crap out of everybody before they can hurt you. But at lower levels, youre just a light armored fighter. This is a silly complaint. I doubt we'll hear the guardians complaining that their DPS isnt as good as other fighters.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Durlinn wrote:<DIV>Since when are monks tanks???</DIV><hr></blockquote>Since the designers that made the game said so.

[IkkyScar]

<DIV>It is somewhat situational.  I don't NEED a shaman to tank, but I do better with one.  I can tank just fine in groups still at level 30+.  There are some situations where a tin can tanks better and some where I tank better.  I get hit for more damage when I do get hit yes.......but I also get hit way less often.  Like I said it's situational.  I'm tanking in Runneye just fine at lvl 31 though, even red con ^^'s.  We are "perceived" as not being able to tank.  You just need to get people to realize you can, and they will continually ask you to tank for them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Ranzera]

<DIV>I played a Bruiser to 20 - realised how horribly underpar they are compared to everyone else and went back to my Shaman - Consequently I will not allow any bruiser to become main tank ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry - But I dont care for the excuse that "you need to have everything possible upgraded and  the best equipment for your level otherwise your an idiot" response. I know that the average bruiser out there doesnt and its not possible for everyone so why take the risk ey?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If 3 bruisers out of the many of this forum dont see the obvious problem with this class its because the are deep in a very successful group that can hide the obvious inadequacies of this class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Oidan]

<DIV>Make that 4 then, I dont see any problems tanking and have regualrly get tells from folks asking me to tank. Lot of you guys think that we are all the same, we are not. You cant just be given a pallet and say I can tank. You also need skill to tank. I join grps as dps but if I see that the main tank (whatever class) is stupid, then I just simply take over and it becomes my show.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are a lot of people out there who do not know how to play their class. Every bruiser I have talked to in game have absolutely no complaints. If you are having problems then maybe you should rethink the way you tank, I am not puttin you down at all but I just really dont get it. Its the man/woman who makes their character sucessfull not the gear/skills.</DIV>

[Ranzera]

<DIV>Not getting in an arguement - Youre happy - no worries.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guarantee we are doing exactly the same things have very comparable equipment and our skills are upgraded where necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I fight oj - red mobs with an exepctionally skilled group.Their feedback is that I am far from optimal so I will change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your happy tanking yellows - great.</DIV> <DIV>Sorry - I wont settle for second best.</DIV>

[Twizz]

<DIV>Hi</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been looking around the class boards to get an idea about the different fighters. I simular issues on every class board (not only fighters). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My personal opinion is, it's way to early to start discoussing class balance. Maybe some abilities but not an entire class. People will learn to take advantage of their class over time. It's impossible to balance anything until a large amount of the comunity reaches higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some guardians say they can't tank...</DIV> <DIV>Some bruisers say they can't tank...</DIV> <DIV>Seen some berzerkers say it too...</DIV> <DIV>Same discussion goes on on the SK boards...</DIV> <DIV>Simular things are posted on the monk boards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go figure, noone can say anythign for sure yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently level 22 Fury and starting a fighter alt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[lordofdrago]

Gang, let me point out official EQ2 class descriptions from the EQ2 Web Site:Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory.Busiers are powerfull thugs who use raw physical force to pummel their opponents into submission. They have transformed their bodies into brutal weapons designed to inflict suffering upon their enemies.From those descriptions, Guardians ARE the tanks. That is the way the game is designed. We might tank better from time to time but in general they should be better than us. We deal damage, in a head to head fight, we should out damage all other melee classes, including scouts, most of the time. Scouts should out damage us in optimal positions.I understand the complaints, I feel your pain, I really do. I'm not making light of any of it. However, Bruisers are not meant to be main tanks. We were promised high damage in face to face fights, not tanking.Lets be honest, does it make sense that a guy in light armor and often with nothing in his hands is going to out tank someone in full plate and holding a shield... even in a fantasy world?Balance Blackrain22 Half Elf Bruiser

[Roddy]

I am saying this again bruisers are not tanks. If you want to be a tank go beserker. They do better damage and can outtank guardians. Bruisers are ment for power and they should scrap most of their unbenefficiial tanking side and boost our power. They should fix boarst jeer and intimidate and alot of other skills we have. Sucker punch and attack from behind does less damage from an attack in the front so why should we use it. We are not tanks unless the other tanks are all dead or asleep. Face it the bruiser class is a MUTT class thats all.

[Ripp]

<DIV>All the evidence of my gameplay to date in Live and the time I spent in beta contradict everything you have just posted RoddyRo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tank.  I do tank.  I do not understand where people are getting this perception that we can't fulfull the role of our archetype.</DIV>

[Baelno]

From a clerics perspective, one of the best tanks I have grouped with thus far has been an 18th level bruiser and this was with an 18th level warrior and 18th level crusader in the group. During combat, I could easily keep the bruiser up with a couple of BoVs whereas the warrior and crusader required considerably more healing power. It got to the point where the entire group felt it was better to have the Bruiser tank rather than the crusader or warrior.-Baelnorm

[duk4]

<DIV>I'm not a bruiser yet just a brawler, but with me a warrior and a druid we roll stuff easy and i'm the main tank.  Warrior casts intervene on me so we take advantage of both classes abilities.  I main tank because i get hit less often, when i do get hit me and the warrior share the dmg so that the druids regenaration spell is able to keep us both near full and he doesn't have to use many direct healing spells at all.  Of course we are pretty dmg heavy especialy when our bard and swashbuckelr join us so most stuff dies really fast.  </DIV>

[Moski]

@the figters and brawlers who are posting here that they are the great tanks:this is the bruiser subclass forum. if u arent a bruiser and so u cant talk about how well a bruiser is balanced and designed pls post at the rifgt forum (aka figter or brawler subclass)!sure a figter/brawler is able to tank as well as a war/crusader. even a mage is able to tank in the teens!bruiser getting more and more problems as they lvl.lvl 29 bruiservalor (german language server)

[Oidan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranzerain wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not getting in an arguement - Youre happy - no worries.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guarantee we are doing exactly the same things have very comparable equipment and our skills are upgraded where necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I fight oj - red mobs with an exepctionally skilled group.Their feedback is that I am far from optimal so I will change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your happy tanking yellows - great.</DIV> <DIV>Sorry - I wont settle for second best.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well that is your problem, you are fighting red mobs. Of course it is gonna hurt when you get hit. I dont fight red mobs, only yellow and below. Let me ask you a couple of questions.</P> <P>This exceptionally skilled grp, do you have a guardian among them? If so, then why are you trying to tank? If you tank ur grp is losing out on dps because you have to use your defense buffs rather than your offensive buffs. Guardians dont nearly do the damage we do so now the guardian is forced to pick up your slack in the dps dept but he cant. </P> <P>Sounds like you are not doing well against red mobs, I suggest exping on lesser cons meanin yellow - blue or get a guardian so you dont hinder the grp.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Oidan on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:36 AM</span>

[EgilRon]

<DIV>I am a 24 defiler.  A defiler is a Bruisers best friend.  Lets start by explaining how the three main heals work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All three Healing classes have direct heals.  These are horrifically ineficient, and should only be used when things are getting desperate (ie the primary heal isn't keeping up).  All three classes have a simialr direct heal, but I try to use it as infrequently as possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, on to the three heal types:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cleric - Reactive heal.  This heals for a set amount every time you are hit.  When you dodge, parry, block, etc, this WILL NOT heal you.  It also only heals you a SET amount every time you are hit.  A Warrior gets hit most of the time for low dmg.  A Brawler gets hit infrequently for high damage.  Reactive heals WILL get overwhelmed on a Bruiser every single time, but work great on Warriors.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid - Heal over time.  This heals a set amount every tick for a certain number of ticks.  This is the most "neutral" form of heal their is.  Brawlers and Guardians should do equally well with the a druid as main healer.  However, druids have a BIT more difficulty as the MH as their HOT spell will normally be overwhelmed in big group encounter.  They do however stack superbly with either a Shaman or Cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman - Wards.  This protects from a set amout of UNMITIGATED damage.  When you dodge, parry, block etc, this is not used up.  When the Warrior gets hit constantly, the FULL, unmitigated hit is removed from the warrior (ie, his armour does nothing).  As such, when healing a warrior, it is a spamming wards..  When healing a brawler, it is a much more relaxed experience, as every extra block/dodge etc. you guys do is less heaing for me.  But your both getting hit for the same amount.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone else posted above, Brawlers also tend to work better against 1 ^^ mob, guardians and such against 6 standard mobs (but even then, if you have a Shaman as your healer, you will be better).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason you are feeling underpowered is that too much of the player base still wants a cleric to heal them (which is nonsense), and too much of the player base wants a warrior.to tank, due simply to prejudices from EQ1.  But, Shaman + Brawler = Warrior + Cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also of note, don't be a [Removed for Content] and, with 2 freaking shaman in your group, refuse to even TRY to tank when your group doesn't have a tank, which happened to me last night.  </DIV>

[Emrik]

<DIV>Maybe its just my point of view , but the way I see brusiers in eq2 is an evil version on an eq1 monk. This is the attitude I had in mind when I rolled mine and have not been disapointed yet. The role I see us in is primarily dps/light off tank. We dont tank as well as any other warrior , that much doesnt need to be argued. I would however like to address the concerns of our dps vs a scout. What you have to consider in my opinon is this, there are a lot of trade offs. First and foremost for scouts to get the big damage numebrs they have to be in stealth, flanking or behind the mob, ( some cases only behind). For most of our abilities we can be in any postion (yes I know there are some we have to flank but no where near the amount that scouts have to do). I guess what Im trying to say is this, We probably do around 75% of the damage a scout does, but we are no where near as positonaly dependant. They have evade which is ok but fd to drop agro is far supperior. If the healer is getting pounded on we tank prolly at least 50% better then the rogue ,have taunts to pull agro + intervine and other skills to help out. If you want to take hits from dragons and laugh you are playing the wrong class, you would prolly be happier in the warrior/crusader subclasses  . If you want to do a single huge dps hit every 15-30 seconds and a spam of dual wield damage then scout class is prolly where ya wanna go. </DIV>

[Tresva]

<DIV>I just don't see the problem like some of you do.  Are we a stand up, jump in the middle and let all the mobs pound on us tank like a plate wearer?  No - absolutely not.  But I know I can tank whenever needed just fine.  There have been multiple occasions where the MT went down, I had to pick up agro and keep the fight going, and had no problems.  I've also been the MT on numerous occasions with out a problem.   The big challenge is to keep the mobs in front of you, once they get behind you'll get shredded.   Making use of your defense buffs has a huge impact also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having played a monk for 5+ years in EQL (quite at lvl 6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I'm MUCH happier with the ability of a bruiser to tank than my monk ever was able to.  We have good DPS, a good ability to ST or MT in a pinch, and there's always feign death to fall back on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, I won't **mods 4 teh win!!1!** if SoE gives us some boosts (who would?), but I guess I don't see them as being needed.</DIV>

[VettsVey]

<DIV>OH I was right... BOOM! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009</A></DIV>

[RDescha]

<DIV><FONT size=2>I'll be damned...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>That makes me so happy! Honestly, I've been content with how I've been tanking so far, and to know I've gone ALL this way without using deflection? We might just be able to tank like warriors now....From the front, at least. That's just awesome, right when I think the class can't get any better. =) I guess I shouldn't be surprised, they did say all fighters are supposed to tank equally, and with this deflection bug (my deflection is at 100 and something, and I've never actually used it?! O-o) we might actually be able to tank as intended. Awesome.</FONT></DIV>

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>RDeschain wrote:<DIV><FONT size=2>I'll be damned...</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>That makes me so happy! Honestly, I've been content with how I've been tanking so far, and to know I've gone ALL this way without using deflection? We might just be able to tank like warriors now....From the front, at least. That's just awesome, right when I think the class can't get any better. =) I guess I shouldn't be surprised, they did say all fighters are supposed to tank equally, and with this deflection bug (my deflection is at 100 and something, and I've never actually used it?! O-o) we might actually be able to tank as intended. Awesome.</FONT></DIV><hr></blockquote>He in fact said they broke it in one of the last patches. So you have probably been playing without it a week or two. The concerns about Brawlers' tanking and their general role are still very valid, although some posters tend to exaggerate them a lot.<p>Message Edited by Dovifat on <span class=date_text>12-04-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 AM</span>

[RDescha]

<DIV><FONT size=2>I've only been playing for a week or two. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But yes, you're right, I could have played with the skill while it was working.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Edited because that sounded sarcastic ^, and it's not meant to be. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by RDeschain on <span class=date_text>12-04-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:02 AM</span>

[EgilRon]

<DIV>Even with deflection broken, as a Defiler (Shaman), the bruiser tanked better than the guardian with my heals.  Add in deflection and it won't be close <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Sheperd]

I'm telling you as long as your healers keep you warded there should not be a problem. 80% of tanking is the healers job. 20% is keeping the aggro.

[dalme]

<DIV>just my 2 cents ...but coming from EQ1 playing a lvl 70 11k hp monk.....sitting through multiple nerfs to the class.....dmg / mitigation....we got stripped down to nothing....Here in the bruiser...I am reminded of my prenerf days when I could out tank any pally and alot of warriors.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no trouble tanking at 21 with anything we have gone up against....Maybe Ive just had a good healer.....maybe not <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im quite happy with the class so far....If they make us better....sweet....If not...well I can live with the way I am now and not be upset in the least</DIV>

[Mum]

Yah, you will tank just find if you have a shaman backing you up, the only problem I find in tanking is when there is a huge group of high lvl mobs, and they all want to get in your sweet spot (flanking you) other than that I am no more of a "power drain" on my healer than a guardian is when paired with a Cleric line healer... my only problem now is that I just hit 27 and my aoe taunt went grey...would love to know when we get another one <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hope its soon!-Tamaran Iksar Bruiser 27/ 10 scholar- AB

[Icr]

<DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>After receiving Eye Gouge and Bob + Weave, I am convinced that we CAN tank as well as other fighters....however healers in <U>general </U>(in my experience) do not want us as tanks because the way they have to heal. Other fighter’s health is pretty much predictable, going down, for the most part, steadily. However, when bruisers, or all brawlers I assume, get hit it takes us down immediately to almost half health and if we get a bad roll twice in a row we are dead. No healer wants an unpredictable tank. I think our current AC gap is way to big atm. I’m grouping with a paladin currently who is 1 lvl below mine (he’s 28 I’m 29) and he has over 1k more ac than me...i just think that’s too big of a gap for us to ever breach with avoidance. I see bruisers in the future as either eternal back up tanks, or just dps.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>We are great tanks when it comes to blues, but I just dont see us in the main role when it comes to whites or above.</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>

[Is]

I'm not sure if this will correlate with anybody elses experiences, but I find that if we're facing tough (yellow ++) mobs I do worse than the (usually sk) tank in our group. I am unsure if this is how our avoidance skills work with harder mobs (to our level)? However when it comes to greens/blues they rarely even touch me. Still now that i have adept 3 FD doesn't really matter =]

[Karn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EgilRonin wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am a 24 defiler.  A defiler is a Bruisers best friend.  Lets start by explaining how the three main heals work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All three Healing classes have direct heals.  These are horrifically ineficient, and should only be used when things are getting desperate (ie the primary heal isn't keeping up).  All three classes have a simialr direct heal, but I try to use it as infrequently as possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, on to the three heal types:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cleric - Reactive heal.  This heals for a set amount every time you are hit.  When you dodge, parry, block, etc, this WILL NOT heal you.  It also only heals you a SET amount every time you are hit.  A Warrior gets hit most of the time for low dmg.  A Brawler gets hit infrequently for high damage.  Reactive heals WILL get overwhelmed on a Bruiser every single time, but work great on Warriors.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid - Heal over time.  This heals a set amount every tick for a certain number of ticks.  This is the most "neutral" form of heal their is.  Brawlers and Guardians should do equally well with the a druid as main healer.  However, druids have a BIT more difficulty as the MH as their HOT spell will normally be overwhelmed in big group encounter.  They do however stack superbly with either a Shaman or Cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman - Wards.  This protects from a set amout of UNMITIGATED damage.  When you dodge, parry, block etc, this is not used up.  When the Warrior gets hit constantly, the FULL, unmitigated hit is removed from the warrior (ie, his armour does nothing).  As such, when healing a warrior, it is a spamming wards..  When healing a brawler, it is a much more relaxed experience, as every extra block/dodge etc. you guys do is less heaing for me.  But your both getting hit for the same amount.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone else posted above, Brawlers also tend to work better against 1 ^^ mob, guardians and such against 6 standard mobs (but even then, if you have a Shaman as your healer, you will be better).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason you are feeling underpowered is that too much of the player base still wants a cleric to heal them (which is nonsense), and too much of the player base wants a warrior.to tank, due simply to prejudices from EQ1.  But, Shaman + Brawler = Warrior + Cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also of note, don't be a [Removed for Content] and, with 2 freaking shaman in your group, refuse to even TRY to tank when your group doesn't have a tank, which happened to me last night.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I couldnt have put this beter myself. I played a Bruiser and a Defiler in beta and I do the same now in live.</P> <P>As my defiler I prefer to have a bruiser as main tank, because they use the ward effectively, plus they do more dps than anyother tank. Unless its caster mobs.</P> <P>To those that say Bruisers arent tanks, this isnt EQ this is EQ2 and in beta it was stated many many times by many devs that the intent of the archetype system is that all subclasses from one archetype should be able to perfrom the archetype role as well as each other but do it differently. A good example are the healers druid/shaman and cleric all heal about as well as each other but in very different ways, the ward complements the bruiser fighting style, the vitae does not.</P> <P>That means Bruisers should tank as well as Guardians just differently. And frankly I find I do, in some situations mostly against casting type mobs I take more dmg than plate tanks because I cant dodge lightning but their armor mitigates it, but against purely melee mobs I hardly ever get hit and they get beaten down regularly. If I have a bad run of luck the shamans ward gets taken down, and he has to cast another. Granted if I'm teamed with a cleric it can get a bit hairy because most clerics play it like EQ and wait till your half hits to heal, and we dont really use the vitae to its fullest taking a few big hits rather than lots of little ones. </P> <P>Too many people are playing EQ in the EQ2 world its a different game and people need to play it not try to change it to be like EQ.</P> <P>As a bruiser I'll happily tank  with a defiler or druid in the group as main healer, but will go dps with a cleric.</P>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Karnak wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>EgilRonin wrote:<BR><DIV>I cant dodge lightning but their armor mitigates it,</P><hr></blockquote>It doesn't, but they have considerbly more HP to soak it up then we do.

[QQ-Fatman]

<P>I think bruisers are not tanks, they are the damage dealers in figher classes. Just leave their ac and boost their attacks. Increase chance to hit or lower some attack skills' power cost would be great.</P>

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote:<P>I think bruisers are not tanks, they are the damage dealers in figher classes. </P><hr></blockquote>You are contradicting yourself. According to SOE, the role of the fighter archetype is to tank. Bruisers are a branch of the fighter archetype -> the Bruisers' role is to tank. Very simple logic and i have yet to see any official comment saying otherwise ( no, fansites and other player written class descriptions, or semi official Game Guides dont count ).

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dovifat wrote:<BR><BR>You are contradicting yourself. According to SOE, the role of the fighter archetype is to tank. Bruisers are a branch of the fighter archetype -> the Bruisers' role is to tank. Very simple logic and i have yet to see any official comment saying otherwise ( no, fansites and other player written class descriptions, or semi official Game Guides dont count ).<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If so, I think figher class will only have 1 subclass - guardian... =.=<BR> <DIV>I think bruisers should do more damage while they can still tank, but not as well as guardians. It's like priests are healers, but druids can do some nice magical damage. </DIV>

[psubull]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Icrog wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>After receiving Eye Gouge and Bob + Weave, I am convinced that we CAN tank as well as other fighters....however healers in <U>general </U>(in my experience) do not want us as tanks because the way they have to heal. Other fighter’s health is pretty much predictable, going down, for the most part, steadily. However, when bruisers, or all brawlers I assume, get hit it takes us down immediately to almost half health and if we get a bad roll twice in a row we are dead. No healer wants an unpredictable tank. I think our current AC gap is way to big atm. I’m grouping with a paladin currently who is 1 lvl below mine (he’s 28 I’m 29) and he has over 1k more ac than me...i just think that’s too big of a gap for us to ever breach with avoidance. I see bruisers in the future as either eternal back up tanks, or just dps.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>We are great tanks when it comes to blues, but I just dont see us in the main role when it comes to whites or above.</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Yes, tanking got easier when I picked up Eye Gouge and Bob + Weave.  Those combined with bruising spirit are your friends when you need to tank.  With my experience so far through grouping, when you have a defiler as the healer, you're the best tank, hands down.  With other healers, unless they've grouped with you a lot and know how to heal a bruiser, don't tank unless there are two.  Both ways save LOTS of power.  And when you get a bunch of bad rolls, turn off autoattack, FD or Play Dead (Play Dead adept 1 > FD Master 1, :smileyhappy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and wait for a few heals.  This will give the aggro to the next best tank/melee, and when you stand up it should only take a taunt or an eye gouge or a crash to get the aggro back.  It's the thinking man's tank.  Mind you, I would rather not be the tank, as it is much easier to utilize all of your abilities when being DPS.  I only ever run low on power when I tank, those taunts use LOTS of power.  As a DPS, I use at my leisure, focusing on using my debuff attacks and fearing/taunting/mezzing adds.  None of our abilities should be put to waste, even abilities that have upgrades, that's why I have 4 bars open (my fourth bar has text macros to say what I am doing.  goes much smoother since I put it in, announcing what I'm fearing/mezzing/debuffing).  I still keep some of the lower attacks handy for when I need them, like focused strike for when I decide to fear a MOB (when the tank gets low on HP as a last resort) and have the wizards/warlocks and those with ranged attacks kite it.<BR><BR>Defense isn't a concern, if you do the right thing </P>