Truth about the bruiser and his/her weapons

[psubull]

<DIV>Ok, I've seen other posts about this, but want to set the record straight.  I've sat around doing the math, doing the timing, reading logs, and have made this conclusion.  The BEST setup for damage is equipping a [Removed for Content], statboosting dual wield weapon in the offhand while keeping primary empty.  Why so?  Here's a few things you can check out for yourself.<BR><BR><FONT color=#cc00ff>Dual Wield: First, dual wielding is a great choice if you're looking to use thundering fists for lots of stuns.  By all means, go for it.  Do not choose it for normal damage dealing however.  Sure, 1.5 seconds is great delay, but you hit VERY light per hit in comparison to say, a staff, one hander or bare fist.  You'll have more swings, which makes misses something not to worry too much about.  However, chances are you aren't hitting for full damage each strike.  Remember, the enemy has AC as well, and things have changed since EQ.  Faster doesn't equal better.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#0000ff>On to staves:  It's iffy.  You can hit CLOSE to what you would with bare fist, but not on par with a bare fist.  The animation is cool, and if that's the reason you're playing bruiser, more power to you.  The delay on the staff isn't as quick as dual wield handwraps, but the staff wins out in damage in the end.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>One handers:  Same as staff.  Hit hard, but generally slower than staves.  Don't use this, unless you like bonking people with hammers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Best choice:  Choose a good dual wield weapon, such as the Bruise Forged Cestus or something else with decent STR on it, and throw it in your offhand.  Let your main hand be open for your fist of fury.  Why choose fist?  Isn't it slow?  In fact, if you get a stopwatch and record the time between two swings, or you do the "One mississippi, two mississippi" counting scheme or time how many swings you do in exactly one minute, you will find that fists are about 1.6 delay.  It just APPEARS slower because the animation is only once every few seconds, as opposed to staff/dual wield where its one constant motion of attack.  On average, at 23, I hit for 60 to 90 with fists.  Lowest hits in the 40's.  In a two to three minute fight (against, for example, the undead ++'s in Fallen Gate), I do over 500 more damage with this setup compared to dual wield or staff.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end, if you're looking to enjoy stun, dual wield.  If you want to watch fancy weapon tricks, choose a bo.  If you want to be different, choose a hammer.  If you want to do damage, fists.  It may not be all that exciting to watch fist combat (although the animation is fit for a troll), but your group will thank you for the damage in the end.<BR><BR><BR>If you want to test this for yourself, grab a stopwatch and record your hits/misses in a separate window, or use logs.  <FONT color=#ff0000>For Fist delay: Make sure someone else has aggro(to avoid being stunned/knocked down), then start both attacking and the timer.  Do not use special skills for a minute and let the hits tally up.  </FONT><FONT color=#3300ff>To compare damage, make sure someone else has aggro(for stun/knockdown avoidance), start both the timer and your attacks.  Record for a minute.  Do this 10 to 20 times, then tally up all of the damage combined and divide it by however many times you performed the test.  This is your average Damage per Minute with that weapon.  Again, during this time, do NOT use special abilities, they only interrupt your attacks and skew the damage results.</FONT></DIV>

[Jak]

<DIV>Very interesting.  I will try this out.</DIV>

[EQ2Adam]

<DIV>I have a staff from Nektulos that I'll use in my offhand, do I leave my primary completely empty or do I buy something like fist wraps? </DIV><p>Message Edited by EQ2Adam on <span class=date_text>11-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 AM</span>

[L0Gan11]

<DIV>awsome....this actually works, you hit fast & i can now solo orange (which i couldn't before)</DIV>

[psubull]

<DIV>leave primary completely open.  Tends to work better this way.  However, there ARE instances where you need to hit magic MOBs, so keep a primary weapon handy in that case. </DIV>

[KBB]

<DIV>why cant you use both fists instead of using one for a duel weapon and the other......... a fist?</DIV>

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>KBB17 wrote:<DIV>why cant you use both fists instead of using one for a duel weapon and the other......... a fist?</DIV><hr></blockquote>It doesnt work that way in EQ2. Fists are considered one 1h weapon. ( Or primary dual wield ) Fists cant be secondary dual wield. Why it was designed this way - who knows.

[Xintal]

<DIV>Just an empty fist for mainhand seems to be doing pretty nice damage. Also, something that I haven't seen mentioned yet, Brawlers can use Bucklers in their offhand too. Not a bad option, I'm trying it out now. The biggest downside is it looks a little weird punching with a shield on your fist..</DIV>

[Jiaqi]

Hello, lvl 15 brawler here, i tried leaving my main hand empty and using a fist wrap in my offhand, but when i look at the damage im doing, it doesnt seem that i am dual wielding. i just seem to do 1 hit per attack, anything im doing wrong here?

[Jak]

<DIV>I tried this out yesterday, and I was doing slightly more damage with my fists (40-80 on average with a few above and below) but slower.  On the other hand, I dual wield two quarterstaves that hit for 16-40 each.  The quarterstaves were about .4 seconds faster, so I think I'll keep using two weapons.  Maybe your level and the weapons you have to wield make a difference in this.  I will try fists again each level to see how much they are doing.  (Btw, the fist damage was with Roughhouse on.)</DIV>

[KBB]

<DIV>im lvl 12 and I used a maple bo 2h and i tried using my fists. My fists hit for -9 to -25 but are slower and dont hit all the time. I used the maple bo 2h and my hits were about -7 to -15 or 17 and they hit more and are faster. And the animation for 2h is way cool. </DIV>

[kebtizz]

<DIV>well tried this out last night currently lvl 19 it seemed i was doing better with my staff and fist. was seeing double digit number instead of mid numbers. also in some fights i seemed to hit a lot faster but it mayu have just been some lag or all in my head. but so far im keeping my main fist open. </DIV>

[KBB]

<DIV>I just got the nomad walking stick in the commanlands in by the wailing caves and should i equip the staff in my primary or secondary hand im going to use the other hand for bare fist.</DIV>

[Alterin]

Ok.. You might want to do two more logs... Do one with your "best" setup at your level... And do another with no weapon at all complete barehanded. Barehanded is a one handed weapon. You can -not- use a one handed weapon and a dual wield weapon. Keep in mind the animations of your character have nothing to do with what's going on. Just because a priest wielding a club and a book in the other hand is swinging with both hands like he's dual wielding... doesn't mean he's actually dual wielding. Or an even easier way to test this.. go bare handed and in your secondary slot wield a slashing weapon. You will never see a slashing message. As far as your other numbers... they kinda disagree vastly with any testing i've done, but i'll leave that "point" alone as I frankly just dont' feel like argueing. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[VettsVey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alterin wrote:<BR>Ok.. You might want to do two more logs... Do one with your "best" setup at your level... And do another with no weapon at all complete barehanded. Barehanded is a one handed weapon. You can -not- use a one handed weapon and a dual wield weapon. Keep in mind the animations of your character have nothing to do with what's going on. Just because a priest wielding a club and a book in the other hand is swinging with both hands like he's dual wielding... doesn't mean he's actually dual wielding. Or an even easier way to test this.. go bare handed and in your secondary slot wield a slashing weapon. You will never see a slashing message. As far as your other numbers... they kinda disagree vastly with any testing i've done, but i'll leave that "point" alone as I frankly just dont' feel like argueing. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I disagree.  Use handwraps on Secondary ... you will receive slashing skill-ups and see " You have done slashing damage of..." </P> <P>Further more, weapons and bare-handed vary each time you level.  Those Batons you been using might have been great doing damage last level, but your fist/handwraps this level just seem to kill them faster.  Just a thought to think about =)</P><p>Message Edited by VettsVey on <span class=date_text>11-27-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:42 AM</span>

[KBB]

<DIV>Well i go ahead and try the wraps thing again but last time i did it my guy didnot stop hitting... it was like a continuous motion which was very awesome but my damage with the wraps were only taking off about -5 to a max of about -8 or -10. So just in case it doesnt work would duel weilding with a nomad walking stick and maple batons be better or would using a 2h like the maple bo be better.</DIV>

[KBB]

<DIV>One more thing whats a stave.............</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EQ2Adam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBB17 wrote:<BR> <DIV>One more thing whats a stave.............</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> The plural form of "Staff"

[Roddy]

<DIV>The guy with the long post is right i know this from experiance. Throw it in your off hand works  but later on u want to equip 2 of those when u have a weapon with 6str 6agi on each hand. It out damages fist and speed is close. </DIV>

[jedi-te]

<DIV>i did a bunch of testing yesterday with my weapons. </DIV> <DIV>i just fought the same type/lvl creature over and over. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with both hands empty i would swing once for about 50 damage before the enemy would swing at me. </DIV> <DIV>(example)</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 50</DIV> <DIV>enemy misses you</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 49</DIV> <DIV>enemy misses you</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 47</DIV> <DIV>enemy misses you..............etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if i put a duel wield weapon in my off-hand it made no difference at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if i put it in my main hand, it would be about the same speed, but did less damage than my fist. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with my two duel wield weapons i would swing 4-5 times for about 25 damage each hit before the enemy would swing at me. </DIV> <DIV>(example)</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 25</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 23</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 27</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 22</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 25</DIV> <DIV>enemy misses you</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 23</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 22</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 26</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 25</DIV> <DIV>enemy misses you.............etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the other bonus i find to having such a super fast attack rate is when you are spamming special moves. instead of having a lot of times when you dont even get in one autoattack because of spamming specials, you always get in atleast 2 autoattacks between specials, even if you dont have any pauses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EQ2Adam]

<DIV>The fact that you said putting a weapon in your offhand made no difference makes me question your testing.  I'm level 28, I use an ebon staff in offhand and leave my primary open.  I do an assload of damage with this setup.  I wish I knew definitely if I'd be doing more damage with another dual wield weapon in my primary hand.</DIV>

[Jaca]

<DIV>I have found using a 2hb is by far the most DPS against higher level mobs.  I tested this theory out on giant wretches ^^ 26 in Fallen Caves.  I am 22 Bruiser while being behind a mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fist Damage w/ Bruiser Cestus</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you hit for 26</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 64</DIV> <DIV>you miss</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 29</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 62</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you miss</DIV> <DIV>you miss</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same mob, same level, with scorched wooden staff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you hit for 42</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 45</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 32</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 86</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you miss</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 64</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 49</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 29</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you miss</DIV> <DIV>wretch hits</DIV> <DIV>you hit for 72</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, when I was tanking the same mob, I hit the mob with the 2hb more often, and deflected attacks more often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ralid]

<DIV>Im not convinced by this.  I use nothing in main and Cestus in offhand, since doing this I have had no skill ups for slashing or seen any hits for it.  Now either they have changed the slashing association or i'm not using the Cestus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My attack rating is marginally higher with this combo than any other combo (some 2HBs are 1-2 or higher), which would suggest its working, however im not fully convinced.  We need a parser <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Leopa]

Just a thought, maybe a brawler gains access to fist dual wield once they actually reach a certain level or when turning into their subclass, at which point they can use a dual wield weapon and the fist. Many people who said dual wield weapon never hits when primary is empty seemed to be brawlers and not actual monk/bruisers.

[Corasik]

<DIV>Level 24 bruiser, If I try the open hand trick, I get crushes from the fist, and nothing from the cestus. If I switch the cestus to main I get slashes and no crushes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this works for some people, and not others then SOE have a serious bug/balance issue. However I know I can dual wield, as if I use a Cestus, and a Flail, then I get crushes and slashes.</DIV>

[runamonk]

<blockquote><hr>Corasik wrote:<DIV>Level 24 bruiser, If I try the open hand trick, I get crushes from the fist, and nothing from the cestus. If I switch the cestus to main I get slashes and no crushes.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If this works for some people, and not others then SOE have a serious bug/balance issue. However I know I can dual wield, as if I use a Cestus, and a Flail, then I get crushes and slashes.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Agreed. I see the same results when I do the exact same thing. I don't think we were designed to use barefisted, would you want to beat on something barefisted? Hell no LOL.

[Chimaer]

<DIV>I have run some testing on this.  I will post the results later tonight at eq2bruisers.com.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically on numerous fights, when dual wielding, the number of swings was almost always 2 times the ammount of swings of fist and weapon in offhand.  DPS was better when dual wielding as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt do any testing of 2hd weapons at all.  I was testing dual wield, fists, and fist and dual wield weapon in offhand.</DIV>

[KBB]

<DIV>So what is it........ which is better 2 h or duel weild or bare hand.</DIV>

[Oidan]

<DIV>Well that all depends on the weapons. Looks like you should never just use 1 weapon unless it is a beefy 2h.</DIV>

[RDescha]

<DIV>Well, thought I'd give my input...</DIV> <DIV><BR>I was fortunate enough to have a friend give me a Bo Staff of the Exiled. Not sure if you can look that up anymore, but it's a 2 hand staff, 1.7 delay, and I believe it's 17-26 (Maybe higher) at level 19. This isn't the extent of the weapons full damage, either. I know I'm not a bruiser yet so I don't have bonuses, but there is also the scorched staff from FG that is pretty nice damage/delay as well. For now, anyways, my 2 hand is by far the best setup. Fists are nice damage but a little slow at the moment, maybe when I become a bruiser this will change, but by then my staff's damage will have gone up more than likely, and I'll be questing for the scorched staff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe I'm just partial to the sweet animations of the stave, but either way it's my preference so far. Although, not being a Bruiser yet, my opinion might not hold much water. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[psubull]

<DIV>For those of you saying you aren't getting hits from your offhand using the bare hand trick, read again what I wrote.  Your offhand will NOT score hits.  It won't attack at all.  It's there for display only.  Heck, throw a shield with decent stats in the offhand, maybe boost your AC a bit for tanking.  I've performed tests on this again at lvl 26.  Open handed is still more damage than dual wield.  Sure, I've noticed several spikes with dual wield of 80+ per hit, but I am hitting for 70 to 100 each hit with open fist.  Its only slightly ahead in the damage now, as more and better weapons for dual wield are being made available.  I guess it really is evening out as time progesses. </DIV>

[Icr]

<DIV> <DIV>Aye, most people misunderstood. You cannot duel-weild with just your fists, no matter your offhand. Additionally, I forgot where I saw it but Mor said in beta that Brawlers were not designed to use their fists as their main weapon. I dunno if that has any bareing at all, but I stick to my 2hb, I do good dmg and it look purty. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scrubs</DIV> <DIV>26 Bruiser of Crushbone</DIV></DIV>

[Quickfingers]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> psubullet wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>If you want to test this for yourself, grab a stopwatch and record your hits/misses in a separate window, or use logs.  <BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Fight #1 -- Lvl 14 carrion bettle vs lvl 24 bruiser (2x bruise forger cestus, attack@ 450)</P> <P>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 33 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 33 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 34 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 17 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 29 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 30 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 23 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 26 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU with Wild Swing, but YOU block.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 22 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 32 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 34 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 33 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU have killed a carrion beetle.</P> <P>Total damage output: 346 points over 13 seconds = 26.6 dps</P> <P>Fight #2 -- Lvl 14 carrion bettle vs lvl 24 bruiser (barefist mainhand, bruise forger cestus offhand, attack@ 445)</P> <P>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 67 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 78 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, with Wild Swing but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 50 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 33 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 73 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but YOU block.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 69 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU have killed a carrion beetle.</P> <P>Total damage output: 370 points over 15 seconds = 24.6 dps</P> <P>Fight #3 -- Lvl 14 carrion bettle vs lvl 24 bruiser (2x barefist, attack@ 443)</P> <P>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 33 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle to crush YOU, but YOU block.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 69 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 75 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, with Wild Swing but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 50 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 76 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle to crush YOU, but YOU block.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 76 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU have killed a carrion beetle.</P> <P>Total damage output: 379 points over 13 seconds = 29.1 dps</P> <P>Fight #4 -- Lvl 14 carrion bettle vs lvl 24 bruiser (bruise forger cestus mainhand, barefist offhand, attack@ 224)</P> <P>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 22 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but YOU parry.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 18 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 29 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 35 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU with Snapping Mandible, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 33 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU with Wild Swing, but YOU block.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 34 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 18 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 12 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 35 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but YOU block.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 19 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 13 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 36 points of slashing damage.<BR>a carrion beetle tries to crush YOU, but misses.<BR>YOU hit a carrion beetle for 76 points of slashing damage.<BR>YOU have killed a carrion bettle.</P> <P>Total damage output: 380 points over 28 seconds = 13.5 dps</P> <P>I chose carrion beetles because there was lots of them around the Nek griff station that were the same level and I had just got off the griffin =)</P> <P>I used a stop watch from "You start fighting" to the "You stop fighting" messages appreared on screen, so yes there is some bias in the timing<BR>so I ran the test again and the numbers were almost identical. Ran out of time to play tonight but will do the same thing tomorrow but will use<BR>the lvl 22/23 cadavers in Nek forest this time. </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I promise I wont clutter up the post with all the hits and misses and just give the results<BR>but Im guessing they will follow the same pattern but just be slightly lower.</FONT></P></FONT></DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>I've done the same as Quickfingers here a while back (about level 21). However, when doing these tests you have to keep in mind how the system works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage mitigation is factored by the level of the weapon. If you are fighting an even mob using a weapon that is even to you, then it will be different from the same mob using a green or orange weapon.</DIV> <DIV>I have no idea what barefists use, I highly doubt it would be green/blue, most likely even (white), maybe yellow/orange. Remember this is for the "level of the weapon", not just the skill being used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can use /log and it will give you the times (up to the second) of when the message was put through. It's not as exact, since it could be the beginning of a second or the end, but it's close enough as long as you get a decent spread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tried testing my attacks against grey mobs to eliminate damage mitigation (yes, same level grey mobs, same creatures to make sure there wasn't a variance in defensive abilities). I just wanted to know the speed and DPS of barefists, and if DW worked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My results using barefist, two orange DW weapons, and an even twohander, tell me that barefist acts a lot like a twohander in speed and damage. After a dozen fights, I'd counted an average speed of 2.2 seconds for barefist, and did almost exactly the same damage as the twohander (that happened to have 2.2 sec delay as well).</DIV> <DIV>The other factor was that the only difference in attacks when I had a DW weapon in offhand was that I got the stat bonuses (such as increased strength).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Barefists are pretty good, considering they are like using twohander damage with the potential of a shield (defense) or weapon (for stat bonuses).</DIV> <DIV>They are not good for getting in a lot of attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is, of course, only taking into account 21st level, and no damage mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My conclusion? Barefist is good if you want to tank and do more damage than if you had your one-hand weapon + shield. Depending on the one-hander's stats of course.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and your specials are treated with their own weapon ratings. Rapid Swings does the same damage regardless of what weapons I'm using. Fiery Fists proc off my DW weapons, and double the attacks means they are proc'ing twice as often. It's sad that Fiery FISTS works better when using a WEAPON.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's the same with ripostes. They don't use the weapon in hand for damage, probably it is its own weapon and just uses whatever skill you have on hand, but it didn't matter what weapon I had as I was always the same (high) damage on my ripostes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end, I tend to do more damage with my DW setup, but I think that was because I had lots of +Str on each, and they were both orange. My attack rating is slightly higher, and I can almost replicate it by taking off certain items and bring Strength to an equal amount.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I almost consistantly use Dual Wield, unless I'm doing heavy tanking against an orange or red mob. Why? Because ripostes happen <EM>per attack</EM> and you've just doubled your attacks. When not tanking, I want all the stat bonuses and attack from behind. We have higher level abilities that encourage that anyways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't want to believe me, then fine. I can try and convince you, spend lots of time trying to post numbers for people.. to which they can just say are doctored. I'd much rather try and get my GLS quest finished and level (you know, play the game, not work on it). If you really want to find proof, just /log it yourself, and make sure you keep in mind all the factors (level of mob, level of weapons, etc). Nothing works better than seeing it with your own eyes.</DIV></DIV>