Rollin' a Monkey: DW or Bare Fist?

[Gastrocnemi]

<DIV>So umm, the title kinda sums it up for me.  I'm gonna roll a monk and I'm not to worried about gear/CA's but I'm curious....is going bare fisted from the start a good idea for increased DPS or is it an AA line?</DIV>

[Novalos]

Would also like to add to this question.  Currently when looking at my auto attack damage, I see one damage attempt per weapon (currenty using a 1hs and 1hb), or 2 attempts per round.  By going the STR AA line and upgrading my chance to dbl attack, does this mean I will have a chance to have 1 extra attack per hand?  So I could optimally have 4 attacks per round (Two from each fist) ?<div></div>

[SouthernAvenger]

^^ Yes, that means you have a chance to make 4 attacks as long as your using hands.If your going bare hands which i do suggest till you get to t7 fabled weapons,go for str 448. If you dont have that str line then bare hands are not a viable option imo.<div></div>

[Novalos]

<div><blockquote><hr>SouthernAvenger wrote:^^ Yes, that means you have a chance to make 4 attacks as long as your using hands.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Just tried this out and I'm only getting 2 attacks per round.  Verified my primary and secondary slots were empty and I'm spec'd STR 4/4/8.  I tried barehands on a different monk of mine and he only gets 1 attack per round, rarely 2.  This makes sense to me though.  If my current monk were to get 4 attacks per round 96% of the time, at approx. 65dmg per hit, I'd be doing a ton of damage.</div>

[Bladewind]

<P>Barehands acts like a one handed weapon.  If you are unarmed, you only swing once per round.  The double attack bonus gives you a chance to attack twice.  The third box in the strength line gives you a flat 20% damage increase (20 dps bonus) and a % chance to double attack.  These bonuses are only active if your hands are empty, so there will nto be a situation where you gain 4 attacks from them.</P> <P>There are a few pieces of armor that give small double attack bonuses without requiring empty hands.  You can use these along with dual wield weapons to give yourself a small chance to attack 3-4 times per round.</P>

[lilmohi]

<DIV>If you plan on tanking a lot, i'd suggest the 2hb line, it is much easier to hold agro on multiple targets with this line.  The dps might be a bit lower than the others but this line is no slouch.  In fact even without the EoF AA's I was able to hold agro in a full group w/o having to switch targets.</DIV>

[Novalos]

<blockquote><hr>Bladewind wrote:<div></div> <p>Barehands acts like a one handed weapon.  If you are unarmed, you only swing once per round.  The double attack bonus gives you a chance to attack twice.  The third box in the strength line gives you a flat 20% damage increase (20 dps bonus) and a % chance to double attack.  These bonuses are only active if your hands are empty, so there will nto be a situation where you gain 4 attacks from them.</p> <p>There are a few pieces of armor that give small double attack bonuses without requiring empty hands.  You can use these along with dual wield weapons to give yourself a small chance to attack 3-4 times per round.</p><hr></blockquote>Awesome, this clears it all up.  Thanks<div></div>

[Wildfury77]

<DIV>hmm....i had assumed that high DR lower tier dual wield weapons easily whipped the strength line?</DIV> <DIV>e.g. Int 4/4/8 Sta 4/4/8 - which gives criticals and direct proc??</DIV> <DIV>Am i wrong?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My next decision will be wether to pick Str 4/4/8/4/8 or go for wis 4/4/8 (for AoE proc).....choices <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[ItsBigRob]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wildfury77 wrote:<BR> <DIV>hmm....i had assumed that high DR lower tier dual wield weapons easily whipped the strength line?</DIV> <DIV>e.g. Int 4/4/8 Sta 4/4/8 - which gives criticals and direct proc??</DIV> <DIV>Am i wrong?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My next decision will be wether to pick Str 4/4/8/4/8 or go for wis 4/4/8 (for AoE proc).....choices <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well as a monk that started before the EoF aa started at lvl 10 i went 448 in sta line untill i could get enough AA to respect to 4488 in STR line. The double attacks seem to do well when hey hit making my dps increase. With the help of dragon advace i dont ever have problems in groups to hold aggro unless im with a dpser thats has full master spells. To tank or dps i recommend 4488 in str at the least. you can tweak as you like but it all depends on your playing style and what you plan to do at t7. Do you want to tank alot or dps alot. At t7 most the tanking is dont by guards/pally/zerker b/c they can wear plate and it is the only way to get through raids. I had np tanking until like 60ish when i had to rely on just to dps. I can still tank alot of mobs the only mobs that i find difficult are raid mobs, and its only on the off chance our tank gets 1shotted by some spell and i have to cast tusanami for 10 sec till he can steal aggro back.   </P> <P>I hope this helps a little or gives advice to tweak your aa's to your liking.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Quind]

<div></div>I've never played with the line myself, but there was a pretty good thread about the Str line that might still be on the first page.  <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=39622" target=_blank>Here we go.</a><div></div><p>Message Edited by Quind on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:33 PM</span>

[selch]

<DIV>It does not worth taking STR AA than loosing benefits of other AA's just for a few dps increase than DW's on brokers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MageChild]

<p>selch:</p><p>It is more than "just a few DPS increase"</p><p>I am a 51 Monk that is spec'd out STR 4-4-8 and Int 4-4-8 (Fists and Crits) and I can tell you Definitely that if you want DPS up until you are ready to get your T7 weapons, go fists.  Fists easilly doubles what your DPS would be DW or 2H (I parsed it out using ACT and buying the best weapons I could get my hands on for levels 30-40-50).  I was averaging 160 with DW or 2H, and unable to break 180, but with Fists I routinely break 350 and when using Everburning Fire for max self haste (78 points, or 75%) I routinely crest 420.  These are even con mobs, so higher and lower level mobs are subject to different numbers.</p><p>Now be aware I am running Adept III and Master 1 for many of my skills, but that obviously doesn't account for the huge difference in damage.  If you want to see the numbers for yourself, equip your weapons of choice and then type /weapons and hit enter.  Then go Fist and do the same.  My weapons were giving me numbers in the 50-60's Del 1.0, Fist damage is 131-191 Del 1.2  You tell me what does better damage.....</p>

[Hammertime]

I am doing the Stam/Int AA line.  Would fists or weapons be better for this build?  I used to use fists, but just switched to weapons and find I do much better.

[Bayne]

I spec'd str 4 4 8, and int  4, 4, 8, 8, 1. Unless you get fabled weapons for your tier, the STR line will out dps any weapons duel wield or 2handers by a fair margin... but make no mistake, you sacrifice a fair amount of stats/hp/power for the extra dps. Still, IMHO, it's worth it. I get tells from new monks always asking what AA they should choose. I always ask if  they want to tank or dps or both? Usually they say dps. While I don't usually say my first thought of re-roll a swashy, I tell them to spec str 4 4 8, sta 4 4 8, int 4 4 8. This from my experience will maximize a monks dps if they do not have fabled weapons.

[Hammertime]

<p>I solo a lot, so I need to add in the Stam tree.  I want Int for the critical strike.  More power will not help me if I have less defense and get hit.  I may consider doing the 3 (str-stam-int), but I guess I will have to see as I get further in the game.</p><p>A lot to me is how the character "looks" too.  Fighting with weapons is way more cool than fighting with the fists.  I know, if I wanted that...why be a monk...right?</p>

[Bayne]

I solo a fair deal, that is why I went all the way down the int line. Eagle Shriek is a life saver

[Wolphin]

<p>I'm a level 58 monk that mostly duos with my wife so I'm not all fabled out or uber level 70 so this is partly an opinion on play style too. Perhaps for people that are fabled all out the str line is the best, but I didnt see that in any of my tests with my mostly handcrafted gear/armor. Also i'm usually in defensive stance (or spider stance if they aren't heroics) when duo'ing, or tanking for a bigger group, so I ran my dps numbers in defensive stance.  I respeced to int 4444 and str 4453 after the LU the other day when they unassigned all our points in the brawler tree, but i was wondering if i was doing more damage or not so I downloaded ACT and did some tests.</p><p>I first did 10 mobs with and 10 mobs without my weapons, both with no combat arts, just auto-attack damage.</p><p>With no weapons my average DPS was 125 and with weapons was 131. I also noticed that I critted more with my weapons, 68 with weapons to 27 without weapons. </p><p>I then did 4 more tests on the same mobs but this time using my combat arts as well. 10 mobs with nothing in my hands, then another 10 mobs with nothing in my hands, then 10 mobs with ironwood quarterstaff/fighting baton in my hands and then another 10 mobs the same way.</p><p>Some things I noticed I got bigger hits with my fists, but more criticals with my weapons.</p><p>On the 2 test with no weapons I got 23 crits and 25 crits, but on the 2 tests with weapons I got 40 crits and 49 crits.</p><p>On the 2 tests with no weapons my min and max melee damage was 66/338 and 79/330 while with weapons it was only 40/169 and 45/171 </p><p>With weapons and combat arts my DPS was 441 and 436 while no handed and combat arts was only 392 and 398.</p><p>I think i was better off with my points in sta and int fighting duo because not only did i get the melee crit chance but I was able to decrease their sta/health with Mantis Star on the pull and had increased parry and deflection as well.</p><p>Just out of curiosity, i went back and ran the tests again in offensive stance and got the same results specced str 4453 and int 4444. </p><p>Without weapons my DPS was 408 and with weapons it was 463 and again my crits with weapons was higher at 49 to 38 without.</p><p>One other thing that I noticed that I didnt before and it happened in both tests in offensive and defensive stances. When using combat arts my melee DPS was higher with no weapons, but my non-melee DPS was a good bit higher with weapons. </p><p>In defensive stance my melee DPS with weapons was 107 and without weapons was 128, but my non-melee DPS with weapons was 335 while only 276 without.</p><p>In offensive stance my melee DPS with weapons was 145 and without weapons was 185, but my non-melee DPS with weapons was 334 while only 239 without.</p><p>So while my melee DPS went up without weapons by 11 in defensive and 40 in offensive, my non-melee DPS with weapons was 59 higer in defensive and 95 higher in offensive making the overall DPS while using combat arts better with weapons.</p><p>Unless those 3 more points in Double Attack make up all the difference in DPS, when duoing, I still think i'm better off without the Str line and using my weapons with their procs.</p>

[Builttolast]

I used STR line up until 62 and have since switched to the popular 448 INT/WIS/STA (with 1 bonus point in WIS).  Reason,  you can't adorn your fists.  I Not only do my low delay weapons already have procs,  but I've added 2 more procs @ 250 damage each (and these do add up) along with the 2 AA bonus procs.  Add a mystic (3% proc buff) and you're a dps machine.

[PrimusPilus]

<cite>Wolphin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Unless those 3 more points in Double Attack make up all the difference in DPS, when duoing, I still think i'm better off without the Str line and using my weapons with their procs.</p></blockquote><p>Uh, those three points do make a lot of difference. If and only IF you have them you will do more dps, at 5 points you will only do about avarage damage, no better than weapons, at 8 its almost to the fabled weapon catagory. We are talking 36% more chance to double attack here (perhaps around 30% more damage or a bit more).</p><p>Your chance to crit however will not go up, since basically the game treats you as if you are only hitting twice with your right hand, and only the first hit procs anything. Note that at that speed, you can do a combat art, a brief pause to allow an autoattack to go off, another CA, etc, for maximum damage, its all about the right timing. You would probabaly want to pause about 1/2 second for a total pause of 1.5 seconds or so (refresh time plus casting time of CAs is about 1 second), or whatever /weaponstats shows the delay of your fists to be. Basically if /weaponstats showed say a delay of 1.7, you would want a pause of 0.7 seconds between CAs, or a bit more. It may be the lack of this pause, or the proper pause length to allow 1 or two full autoattacks to fit between CAs that results in your lower CA dps with unarmed, which is a lot slower than most weapons and thus needs a noticable pause to allow even one autoattack to go off between CAs if you spam them, whereas with faster weapons one will fit in between CAs even if you cast them one right after the other, so long as your delay after haste is 1.0 or less.</p><p>But overall the test is invalid if you did not put a full 8 into double attack. Personally I think one point in claw reversal is also cost effective, since it gives 1.5% more autoattack damage and 1.5% more avoidence.</p><p>Also, you need to use the mitigation debuff you get also to make it a fair test, since that comes with the strength line. Not using it, even with a test of just autoattack, should lower your damage by, on my tests, about 7.5%.</p><p>Also, crits are only another way to get more damage, if you could do a lot more damage without getting a single crit, I'd go for it. With a full 8 in unarmed you should do a lot more damage despite getting less crits. </p>