Where do we stand?

[Anjin]

<DIV>I know that various issues have been brought up over the last few pages of messages, but it would be great to look at the key attributes of our role within a group/raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Tanking</DIV> <DIV>Mitigation and avoidance - How do the changes compare to pre lu 28 days & how do we compare to mitigation tanks now?</DIV> <DIV>Hate generation - Has this changed? Are there any concerns?</DIV> <DIV>Healing - We all know that proactive healing is far better than reactive healing...does this seriously impede us?</DIV> <DIV>Comparison to other non fighter classes - How do we compare against scout tanking classes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. DPS</DIV> <DIV>Damage compared to other fighter classes</DIV> <DIV>Damage compared to scout classes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Group/single target buffs & general utility</DIV> <DIV>Do we offer enough utility to be a benefit a group/raid as purely DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess the above highlight my concerns.  The following questions are my major issues though:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can a raid leader justify having a Monk as a raid tank as the 'usual' tank rather than specific encounters? If yes, how?</DIV> <DIV>Can a raid leader warrant having a Monk as Second Tank/MA over other fighter classes? If yes, how?</DIV> <DIV>Can a raid leader warrant having a Monk as DPS over another melee class? If yes, how?</DIV> <DIV>Should Monks offer more utility? Group FD and Haste being the only ones.</DIV> <DIV>Are we still the master of none fighter that most of the time can only really shine in easier zones?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you aren't a raider, can a group leader justify having a Monk MT over a non brawler MT for the trickier instances?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are going to post, please be objective and look at the abilities/attributes we have rather than your personal skill.  You'll always find situations where a monk will perform far better tanking than another fighter or DPSing better than another class purely down to the skill of the monk and lack of skill shown by the other class!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My own personal opinion?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think our DPS is lower than some fighter classes that offer better tanking abilities.</DIV> <DIV>I think as we are harder to heal (with more spike damage) we are less preferred as group tanks.</DIV> <DIV>I think brawlers offer far too little group utility in comparison to other fighter classes.</DIV> <DIV>I think brawlers have very limited debuff potential.</DIV> <DIV>If I had the choice between say a berserker and a monk for a group tank (or raid tank for that matter), it would always be the beserker due to better encounter/ae taunting, better group buffs, better dps & easier healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having said all that, I do like playing my monk <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

Here are my observations. 1. Mitigation and avoidance. Plate tanks lost mitigation as % while mine stayed the same, this was due to item nerfs and higher cap. Overall it made plate tanks take more damage while brawlers take roughly the same as before. As for avoidance, I lost almost 10% from my avoidance and it is still just as broken as before. I still manage the same hate as before, poor group hate and good single target. Proactive healing is still king, though the avoidance nerf means that reactives will heal us more too since we are getting hit more. I have not much experience about scouts, I do last longer when I grab aggro than a brigand when he does. Our gear is pretty much fully fabled for both. 2. Monks do more damage than crusaders and guardians but less than zerkers and bruisers. Bards are the only scouts that do equal or less damage than us, brigands and assasins out-dps us by about 40-50% and swashies and rangers by 25-30%. 3. We still only give 21% haste to group. Nothing more. As for raidtanking, mt no, offtank yes. Though I generally survive Tsunami + 1 second. Unless I get those tankbuffs and 11k+ health. In which case I might survive Tsunami + 3 seconds. Epics never miss, especially nameds and my mitigation is way too low. On raids, my monks role is to sprung traps and pull certain mobs. DT is one zone when monk is nice to have with all the worms. My monk dies on those only if the feign fails, earlier when I wasn't in, the one who did the traps, died in almost every other trap. As for DPS, compared to our utility and tanking capability, we have about 30 to 40% too little DPS. <div></div>

[Barok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herbster wrote:<BR> <DIV>I know that various issues have been brought up over the last few pages of messages, but it would be great to look at the key attributes of our role within a group/raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Tanking</DIV> <DIV>Mitigation and avoidance - How do the changes compare to pre lu 28 days & how do we compare to mitigation tanks now?</DIV> <DIV>--- getting closer to preLU28 . still far inferior to plate tanks.-----</DIV> <DIV>Hate generation - Has this changed? Are there any concerns?</DIV> <DIV>----- imo...no. agro is player controled not the toon.</DIV> <DIV>Healing - We all know that proactive healing is far better than reactive healing...does this seriously impede us?</DIV> <DIV>---mixed thoughts on this. a beat down is still just a plain beat down  . no matter what healing you have.</DIV> <DIV>Comparison to other non fighter classes - How do we compare against scout tanking classes?</DIV> <DIV>---i can still tank better with my Brigand  with Str/Wis AA build both equally equipped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. DPS</DIV> <DIV>Damage compared to other fighter classes</DIV> <DIV>---i do better than most . </DIV> <DIV>Damage compared to scout classes</DIV> <DIV>--- eh ? hehe...he...hehe.....HAHA!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Group/single target buffs & general utility</DIV> <DIV>----see below----</DIV> <DIV>Do we offer enough utility to be a benefit a group/raid as purely DPS</DIV> <DIV>take away group FD >>>> monk ???what's a monk?????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess the above highlight my concerns.  The following questions are my major issues though:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can a raid leader justify having a Monk as a raid tank as the 'usual' tank rather than specific encounters? If yes, how?</DIV> <DIV>-----if you are raiding SoS sure. serious content ...not atm. monk will get owned.</DIV> <DIV>Can a raid leader warrant having a Monk as Second Tank/MA over other fighter classes? If yes, how?</DIV> <DIV>-------some of us can ,sure. you will get replies from the guy saying he can tank Lord V and Big Tas a monk . pay them no mind. they are high on something my friend...</DIV> <DIV>Can a raid leader warrant having a Monk as DPS over another melee class? If yes, how?</DIV> <DIV>----yes ....good to very good DPS numbers  across the entire time of the raid</DIV> <DIV>Should Monks offer more utility? Group FD and Haste being the only ones.</DIV> <DIV>---if i read this correctly . then yes i think we should have other group buffs.</DIV> <DIV>Are we still the master of none fighter that most of the time can only really shine in easier zones?</DIV> <DIV>----really dont understand what your asking here friend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you aren't a raider, can a group leader justify having a Monk MT over a non brawler MT for the trickier instances?</DIV> <DIV>--- Plate tanks are always wanted over a brawler if  the option is there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are going to post, please be objective and look at the abilities/attributes we have rather than your personal skill.  You'll always find situations where a monk will perform far better tanking than another fighter or DPSing better than another class purely down to the skill of the monk and lack of skill shown by the other class!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My own personal opinion?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think our DPS is lower than some fighter classes that offer better tanking abilities.</DIV> <DIV>I think as we are harder to heal (with more spike damage) we are less preferred as group tanks.</DIV> <DIV>I think brawlers offer far too little group utility in comparison to other fighter classes.</DIV> <DIV>I think brawlers have very limited debuff potential.</DIV> <DIV>If I had the choice between say a berserker and a monk for a group tank (or raid tank for that matter), it would always be the beserker due to better encounter/ae taunting, better group buffs, better dps & easier healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having said all that, I do like playing my monk <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> i find myself playing my zerker  in group play about 60-65% of the time over my monk. i love my monk .It is still my absolute favorite char/class over all the other char/class i have. ill never give up on her  , but im not very happy with the "Brawler" setup at this time . honestly i havent  liked it sine  after LU13.

[Illustrious]

<P>Nothing has really changed as far as i can see, everyone (melee at least) has been nerfed to a lesser or greater degree with regard to taking damage from mobs especially greens and blues which have been pumped up. Monks have not really been hit any harder than anyone else tbh.</P> <P> </P> <P>Because of that solo play is no where near as good as it was b4, ie its much harder to kill blue heroic namers than it was b4, and even the green ones that used to be cake are now somewhat of a struggle.</P> <P> </P> <P>Avoidance is still pretty innefective against epics and hard high level heroic namers, we now get a whole 12% (with master defense stance) of uncontested avoidance, its not ground breaking but its a start i guess. </P> <P> </P> <P>However even with avoidance being buggered its still possible with good gear and a nice grp setup to tank most epics and all heroic content. Maybe not as efficient as using a plate tank but still doable for the most part although there are a few epics where its still probably not even worth attempting.</P> <P> </P> <P>DPS wise there is very little change, in a raid grp with no dps buffs i do zone wide parse of about 1k dps and with a grp with 80+ dps your talking zone wide parse of about 1.3-1.5dps depending on zone which is pretty much as it was pre eof. Havent got any adornments yet so those figures should rise slightly as time goes by.</P>

[Kayg]

Meh, when the game started  brawlers  were a dps class, then sony [Removed for Content]'d our dps and spoused to up our tanking abilities because so many brawlers complained about not being able to tank higher end content. Funny thing is they took our dps away and didn't really up our tanking abilities at all. I would like to see the brawler class go back to dps, because as is, everyone is going to go with a plate tank over a brawler. Its just how it works. My lvl 70 monk is not going to be a MT for raids. I didn't make him intending to do that, but I did make him to contend with the other dps classes.  I believe if sony would give us back some of our dps the monk class would begin to shine again and be wanted by groups and guilds for their potential. Like I said though..  Like it or not.. Leave the tanking to the meat bags in metal.<div></div>

[selch]

<P>Which game? EQ2 or EQ1? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Mala-Shea]

<P>Selch.....bro, you may as well ask for dps.....cause SOE can't seem to get avoidance tank mechanics to work, or they just don't care. We still have no uncontested rolls for avoidance to give us a chance against a plate wearer's sheild. We are still heroic group tanks, nothing more. I know, I know....you made a monk cause he's a tank, and thats what you wanna do....tank. But this big combat change/avoidance revamp with EoF, well.....it's very dissapointing for those who want to tank as a brawler. </P> <P>Doesn't seem like epics miss at all, so that just makes us a poorly mitigated plate tank.</P><p>Message Edited by Mala-Shea on <span class=date_text>11-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:31 AM</span>

[HaginNetherbla]

I would challenge the contention that we do more damage than crusaders and guardians.Guardians typically don't go for the high damage setup.  If they did (being 4-4-8-8 STA and either 4-4-8 STR or AGI; I have a 70 zerker that I play now far more than my 70 monk) then their damage would greatly exceed ours.Shadowknights outdamage us anyway.Paladins I know less about but I've parsed them doing 700-800 dps tanking in equivalent gear at times so I can't say we do more damage.  It looks, just based on parsing, that we do about the same or they do slightly more.This is what really gets me: zerkers, as a good example, have a dps path they go down that is really effective (78% double attack, hello?).  Our dps AAs are pathetic in comparison (8% AE melee attack vs 24%).  And they have far better tanking AAs (going down the AGI line they can get +300 mitigation and no negatives on stances).We don't have a dps path (well we do in the STR line but why would you if you can get fabled DW?) and our tanking AAs consist of getting about 10% avoidance from the +parry, +defense and +deflection, assuming you go for those over any of the 8 point abilities (and I can't see any better setup than that).<div></div>

[Anjin]

<DIV>Agreed.  There is a real lack of diversity in the brawler AA lines.  What I find amazing is that a brawler is supposed to generate a lot of hate through damage, but now we are finding other tank classes dishing out superior damage AND having better taunts!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Herbster on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[superdave]

Sk out damageing a monk thats some uber sk.

[Igu]

<DIV>SK + EoF AAs = :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV>Monk + EoF AAs = :smileymad::smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 66 monk is in limbo. My 54 Sk is ripping new ones.</DIV>