What does bruiser get that a monk does not??

[DerDrac]

Yes i play a bruiser and i am well aware of what monks get that we do not.I dunno if these are rumors or exaggerations but here is what i have heard.<ol><li>ability to almost achieve 90-100 percent haste</li><li>group feign death</li><li>heal spell that works on others as well as self</li></ol>Now my question is, and i hope this is not a repeat, what do i as a bruiser get that you are maybe envious of or perhaps would like to have as those three skills are almost enough to make me want to, couch, betray. Things keeping me as a freeportian - city layout and darkness.. im an iksar, so it fits and i find it more logical than qeynos layout.                                                           - nightmare horse, lets face it, fire horse looks cool and i like it much better than mistrunner.                                                           - i like my bruiser as is and dont want to have to redo much but at 70 im finding monks are far more wanted in groups...I think group fd is totall bs and i should get some sort of ability to counteract that.. maybe i do, but it seems like bruisers are self only while monks help everyone. I played iksar monk in eqlive but as that wasnt an immediate option here, well, this is the result. Anyone have any insight into my problem. I would appreciate any and all responses. I post here because i mainly want to know if there is anything i can do that you want, ie, if there is anything cool about being a bruiser. Lets face it, monks got 3 really really cool abilities from what ive seen and as a bruiser i wish i could be that useful.. I get a 10-15 percent dps group buff... wow..... yeah....Thanks all. Happy hunting you crazy monk bastids.<div></div>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerDrache wrote:<BR>Yes i play a bruiser and i am well aware of what monks get that we do not.<BR><BR>I dunno if these are rumors or exaggerations but here is what i have heard.<BR> <OL> <LI>ability to almost achieve 90-100 percent haste</LI> <LI>group feign death</LI> <LI>heal spell that works on others as well as self</LI></OL>Now my question is, and i hope this is not a repeat, what do i as a bruiser get that you are maybe envious of or perhaps would like to have as those three skills are almost enough to make me want to, couch, betray. <BR><BR>Things keeping me as a freeportian - city layout and darkness.. im an iksar, so it fits and i find it more logical than qeynos layout.<BR>                                                           - nightmare horse, lets face it, fire horse looks cool and i like it much better than mistrunner.<BR>                                                           - i like my bruiser as is and dont want to have to redo much but at 70 im finding monks are far more wanted in groups...<BR><BR>I think group fd is totall bs and i should get some sort of ability to counteract that.. maybe i do, but it seems like bruisers are self only while monks help everyone. I played iksar monk in eqlive but as that wasnt an immediate option here, well, this is the result. Anyone have any insight into my problem. I would appreciate any and all responses. <BR><BR>I post here because i mainly want to know if there is anything i can do that you want, ie, if there is anything cool about being a bruiser. Lets face it, monks got 3 really really cool abilities from what ive seen and as a bruiser i wish i could be that useful.. I get a 10-15 percent dps group buff... wow..... yeah....<BR><BR>Thanks all. Happy hunting you crazy monk bastids.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>you get:  +damage proc in offensive stance,  monks get +haste in offensive stance</P> <P>you get: +mit with slow health drain, monks get +haste with slow health drain  ( i am very envious of bruisers here)</P> <P>you get : +24 to group dps, monks get +22 to group haste</P> <P>you get: fast recast self heal, monks get slow recast anyone heal (for lower amount)</P> <P>you get: stoneskin procs, stone deaf, knockout combo - monks get group fd, tsunami, outward calm</P> <P> </P> <P>From what I have seen, we are balanced pretty darn well vs one another.  You have a slight edge in mitigation and pure damage, we have a slight edge in avoidance and attack speed.  Seeing how avoidance is a bit borked vs high end heroic and raid mobs, you get the tanking edge in those situations thanks to higher mit and stoneskin. <BR></P>

[DerDrac]

Thanks for the response. Makes me feel a bit better. Just remember that most all bruisers i talked to would give up a ca for group fd as it is a huge time saver but alas. Thanks for the info. Stone deaf absorption is pretty cool for raid pulling, didnt realize it was bruiser only.<div></div>

[Bladewind]

Group FD is nice, but not that great.  Since it is a seperate roll for everyone in the group, you still usually lose a few people.

[Harbing]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bladewind wrote:<div></div>Group FD is nice, but not that great.  Since it is a seperate roll for everyone in the group, you still usually lose a few people.<hr></blockquote>Yeah. I truly wish they would halve the reuse timer to something like 7.5 mins; would that really be owerpowered ? I personally would trade Group FD any time for Close Mind on his 3 min timer, especially beeing on a PvP Server where FD is nearly useless.CaineBladesDarathar</div>

[TheSummoned]

Bruisers also get a 50 C/S/P/R debuff, which affect their tanking ability quite a bit. <div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Here's a comprehensive list of differences as I see them (this will repeat some stuff that's been said). I left out stuff we share. <font face="Courier New"><font color="#ffff00">      <u>BRUISER</u>                             <u>MONK</u></font>                      <font color="#ffcc00">Group Buffs</font> Group +DPS skill                   Group +Haste skill                        <font color="#ffcc00">Offense</font> Offense Stance = Procs            Offense Stance = +Haste 3 knockdowns                      3 knockdowns 100% proc 5x 120dam               100% proc 8x avg 120dam Decr Attack skill by 50           Decr Defense skill by 15.8 Multi hit = 8 hits                Multi hit = 5 hits, same overall damage 4s Daze hit, 1m reuse             3s Daze, 30s reuse (same average damage) Extra AE, 4x ~400, 90s reuse      Extra 6s Silence, moderate damage, 30s reuse                                   42% haste, until canceled, 2%hp/tic                         <font color="#ffcc00">Taunt</font> Taunt while stifled/Stunned       Same Group Taunt includes interupt     Same 25% 418 hate % ~100 damage        50% 470 hate                        <font color="#ffcc00">Defense</font> 90s Self Heal 35-42%              3min Targetable Heal 29-35% + cures Dis/Poi Defensive Stance = Poison         Defensive Stance = Mental Offtank Buff = ~70 Agi            Offtank Buff = ~15 Deflection ~750mit 3m up/dn 2%hp/tic         ~540mit 30s up/dn 2%pow/tic Self buff = agility               Self buff = wisdom Stun for Mit                      Same                     <font color="#ffcc00">Ancient Spells</font> Immunity to Stun/Etc              Immunity to melee attacks Absorb 3 magical hits             ~5000 Magical ward Warp to target dam + interupt     Group FD +dam & 1s stun per CA, 3m reuse   ~120dam/target/1s for 8s, reduce cast spd 48%, 90s reuse                        <font color="#ffcc00">Whatever</font> Mez for 10s, 1min reuse           Invisibility (power/tic) Kata Fluff                        Same (but different looking) Skin like poop Fluff x2           Look like tiger and mysticalness</font> Now what I've noticed is that only on a couple combat arts do the reuse timers differ... mostly it's just Bruisers have a higher max and lower min on their damage spread. Shame Combat Arts don't have an enforced minimum like Spells do (see the Combat forum for info on this). On average, our Combat Arts are the same overall damage, and nearly ALL of them have the same cast/reuse timers. Monks end up with extra silence and faster reuse daze (which, btw, does the same damage per second, and similar power cost over 2 uses as the one use of the bruiser version), but Bruisers end up with an extra AoE spell. Well, Monks get Dragonbreath, but it's cone and Knockout Combination helps the ae's do more so Bruisers are still ahead a little in AEing. Debuffing Defense (maintainable btw, 30s recast on a 30s duration) helps landing hits while in defensive stance and helps the whole raid (or group) land hits as well, while Bruiser's 50 attack skill debuff helps the MT or himself from getting hit as much (or allows sitting in mixed stance on solo, etc)... it's not maintainable tho. Might be with relic chest, iirc. The one thing that gets me is that Monks get a health for haste buff AND a mitigation for power + root buff... whereas Bruisers only get a health for mitigation buff. Which has been lowered to nearly match the mitigation for power one. Seems almost like we are missing a DPS for power buff someplace, heh.. oh well. It's no wonder an equally played Monk vs Bruiser is very close in parsing. Or at least they did. Bruisers benefitted more from group buffs to haste, where Monks were near cap on their own. It's changed, but not that much (anything over 100% haste is only 1/4 benefit). So the extra +haste monks get don't make them a whole heckuva lot better at DPSing than Bruisers. And now that the mitigation buff for bruisers has been cut in half, the tanking isn't exactly too far apart either. Although it's hard to tell with all this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [Removed for Content] going on since the update. In the end, we are so close I can't really find anything to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about. It's very nearly the same results, just done differently. Some things are in favour of tanking (Bruiser's 50 attack skill debuff and mitigation buff lasting 3min), while others are in favour of DPSing (Monk's extra +haste ability and 16 Defense debuff benefiting whole raid's ability to land hits). Kind of reversed compared to how I *thought* it would be... although I never recall a DEV saying Monks are supposed to be more defensive, Bruisers more offensive... that's just what the assumption was due to the Freeport/Qeynos mentality. Monks have an edge over aggro holding too, with 50% proc on pure hate plus that haste buff. We both suffer for holding group aggro though. Really... at this point we just need to consolidate our concerns over getting BRAWLERS back into the TANKING position... in a general fixing of avoidance mechanics. We BOTH need help this way.<div></div>

[Drussna]

That's a fairly solid reply Raidi. Nice work.<div></div>

[Camibella]

Did someone forget Sonic Fists or is it just not that cool?<BR>I think it’s a pretty nice ability, but then again I don’t have it so I don’t know the pros and cons of it! :smileyhappy:

[masakre]

<DIV>Id' have to say, Bruisers make better tanks and put out more dps. They don't have haste, so they don't attack as often, but hit harder. There is much less chance of riposte damage if tanking. I play both level 70 with multiple aa. Monk has better gear, and yet my bruiser appears to take less damage and put out even more. I can take content with my bruiser, I cannot with my monk. This is my personal opinion. I know someone is going to attack my thought on this, but that is ok. This is only my opinion.</DIV>

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>I have betrayed to bruiser now, and toyed with it enough to formulate some opinions. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>GFD is a novelty. I dont miss it at all.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>The monk heal sux, especially if youre a raid MA, and cannot target yourself to heal when you need it because then everyone would lose their targets. I always ended up saving my heal for the MT, but I sure could have used it on the occasion. The bruiser heal doesnt require a target, heals significantly more, and is half recast. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Not having tsunami sux, but there are some CAs that make up for it's loss, like Stone Deaf and mez. On a group encounter, the mez tossed at the extra mob really helps a lot.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Downtime between fights is significantly reduced. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>I can solo in offensive because Vig Spirit makes up for the mit loss, even though it itself was nerfed.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Not having high haste sux, and though I havent tested it, it appears the EoF test server thing of all haste stacking turned out not to be true on launch. So that was a disappointment.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>My dps is higher, which I like.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>So what I really miss is the haste. Thats about it.</FONT> </P>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>whats this miti buff that monks get that drain power? we get a 500 ish miti buff that roots us, but i never noticed it draining power b4 and we also get the big 2k+ miti buff that stuns us. But i thought that both monk AND bruiser got both those with the exact same figures and recast times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 700+ miti buff with hp drain (that was nerfed in EoF from 1200 or whatever it was b4) is an extra skill  on top of those 2. I may be wrong tho as i never played a Bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Over all tho what i have noticed from raid parses and from bruisers in my guild: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers get higher burst dps which is better for solo/grp play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers get debuff  to c/p/s which is far better for solo/grp play (especially solo) compared to the [Removed for Content] debuff monks get for defence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers heal is better for solo and grp play (if they are tanking anyway). but for raids i would take monks heal any day, a heal for about 4k on the MT that also cures about 120+ levels of nox has saved the MT dieing many times especially on pull b4 the mob has been debuffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks grp haste 21 (or maybe 22 now after eof) where bruisers get 24 dps, dps buff was better b4 eof especially as there never used to be many (only 1 i think) dps+ items comparted to several + haste items, also +dps means u gain full benifit where as higher haste values mean u start to lose some auto hits so bruiser grp buff slightly better than monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk haste is pretty great 124 i can self haste myself (equivilant to only 104% real haste now tho) is good and means i need only dps buffs, where as a bruiser needs both dps and haste buffs to approach 100% in both dps and haste. (anything more than around 110 dps/haste is basically a waste these days with the diminishing returns adn the buffs would probably be better used on someone else)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid dps is pretty close zone wide if monk/bruiser are getting silmilar buffs and are similarly equiped. bruiser may have a slight adventage but the difference is almost nothing.  Our old bruiser who was as well equiped or better than me used to parse within 50-80 zonewide either higher or lower of me on average. where as our new bruiser who is not very well equiped yet and does not yet have full masters still under dps me by a significant margin on every zone wide parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For raid pulling a monk with tsunami+outward calm is still better imo than a bruiser in 99% of situations the bruiser anti stun skill is nice but seen as there are potions that immune your for 10 secs and there are gl50 sp items that make you immune even longer for the few mobs that stun on pull there is no problem anyway. (I have to say though that there isnt much call for any brawler to pull many mobs at all these days as pets are generally easier and safer)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>overall for solo/grp bruiser is probably the better choice, but for raiders there is not much in it, dps is very close but monk may just edge ahead in utility for pulling with the occasional heal of the tank in spike damage situations. Neither make an optimum raid MT for even or higher con content but both can Off tank and keep aggro for a short while till the MT is back up again, a zerker or crusader is still probably better for this also tho overall.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Illustrious on <span class=date_text>11-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:40 PM</span>

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>You cant really make a direct comparison of some of this stuff. But if you just want to talk about mit buffs...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>The defensive stances give the same benefits.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Bruiser gets the temp mit buff Vig Spirit (which gives 762 for 3 minutes and drains health, though it used to give 1300 mit) It can be AA enhanced to extend it's duration, but not mit amount. Recast is 3 minutes later. It does not root you. I cant imagine trying to boost the duration because the CA extends downtime between battles, so I always cancel it. I'd prefer the AA reduce the recast.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Monks get Skin Like Mountain (which gives ~560 for 30 seconds and drains power) It can be AA enhanced to give 840 mit. Im making an assumption there that because the first AA gives 10%, the 5th one gives 50%. Recast is 90 seconds later and you get rooted.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Both classes get a megamit buff that stuns you and gives 2200 additional mit. These are effectively the same and can be AA enhanced, but they dont need it. I only hit this if I take aggro in a raid and dont want to risk a feign.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>These numbers are for masters. Total number of mit buffs is the same. The last AA in the Int line of the first 50 AA's gives you 1400 mit and 75% crit chance when youre health 30% or less. It's awesome, and I recommend both classes take it. It's passive. Based on straight up mit, I'd have to say monks are better at tanking, but only by a smidge. Playstyle would affect this a lot.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Supple on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I'd say that playstyle is what's key here. The numbers specifically are almost identical... the Bruiser gets a bit more upfront, but if the fight lasts for anything longer than 30s, the Monk's CAs catch up in damage.Defensively, it's nearly identical now, and with AA's the only bonus Bruisers have is that their extra mitigation can last the whole fight while Monks is only 30s.Taunt-wise, Monks have an edge with 50% proc on massive self haste... meaning you'll get a heckuva lot more taunting in than our 25% proc 0 haste. That definately counters the burst DPS Bruisers have, so over a fight longer than 30s (again) the Monk gets an edge here.Tsunami is better than Stun Immunity, but Stone Deaf is better than Spell Ward. Each excels in their own situation... I found that Bruisers pull better in many instances, but Monks pull better in most raid situations. Overall, a pet pulling is far easier... so it's a moot point anyways.Anyone that's saying that Bruisers do "significantly" more damage than Monks are seeing a Bruiser being played better than the Monk, or in a better position than the Monk. Different buffs help each class, you can't interchange them and expect the same level of performance. And you can't just sit down and play your Monk like you did your Bruiser, and vice versa.Lastly, you can't go by most heroic trash fights either, because both don't reach their full potential... it's basically whoever can smash in as much damage in the first 15s before the Wizard lands his big nuke... essentially whoever was paying the most attention. It's not like it's crucial to have as much DPS as possible in a heroic fight.And in raid situations, overall the damage done by Monks and Bruisers its so close that you can start picking it apart by "who got what buff" and "who went to the bathroom mid-fight", etc.If it's that close, then there's nothing to worry over between the two classes.<div></div>