Things to do before you tank:

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>I've been noticing alot of whining. ALOT of whining.  Specifically about how much HARDER mobs are.  Every time I read one I have to bite my tongue to keep from screaming and writing a scathing post about how much of a noob everyone is. So I'm going to try and be constructive here.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here are some ideas (FOR PLAYERS) to make the mobs easier to tank, take them all, leave them all. do whatever. But improving these areas made my life a whole lot easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Stance dancing: . If its stunned, your in offensive. Otherwise, defensive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Stats: If you don't have an item in every slot, you will have lower stats then the devs have projected for mobs.  I can't believe how many people I see running around with no items in their charm slots.  At level 70 that is 28 stat points. Also, foods and drinks give more stats, and be sure to fill your 2nd earring and cloak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Potions, god items, and other temp buffs:  I can get up to 8k hp self buffed with the different temp buffs before I even leave town.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Augments: Find a friend who is dedicated to leveling augment to 350, and HELP HIM/HER!  Level 70 rare augments. Nuff said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Upgrade spells: When I started tanking t7, I had all adept1-adept3.  Now I only have 5  attacks that are adept3, and I rarely use them anyways when tanking.  The difference is very noticable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. Bring 3 healers.  I find that 3 healers (druid, mystic, templar) lets me go all out dps, even against yellow conned heroic named.  Templar sticks to heal, mystic debuffs and heals, druid dpses, and is there for emergencys.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. AA's, AA's AA's:  I'm already deep into the new AA's.  IT HELPS!  Especially dodge, no power cost, you dodge the next attack, that would have hit.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats about it.  Good luck to you all, and I hope this helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by DynamicPerformance on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:58 AM</span>

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DynamicPerformance wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've been noticing alot of whining. ALOT of whining.  Specifically about how much HARDER mobs are.  Every time I read one I have to bite my tongue to keep from screaming and writing a scathing post about how much of a noob everyone is. So I'm going to try and be constructive here.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here are some ideas (FOR PLAYERS) to make the mobs easier to tank, take them all, leave them all. do whatever. But improving these areas made my life a whole lot easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Stance dancing: . If its stunned, your in offensive. Otherwise, defensive. <FONT color=#ffff00>Being Done</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Stats: If you don't have an item in every slot, you will have lower stats then the devs have projected for mobs.  I can't believe how many people I see running around with no items in their charm slots.  At level 70 that is 28 stat points. Also, foods and drinks give more stats, and be sure to fill your 2nd earring and cloak. <FONT color=#ffff00>Being Done</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Potions, god items, and other temp buffs:  I can get up to 8k hp self buffed with the different temp buffs before I even leave town.   <FONT color=#ffff00>Being Done</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Augments: Find a friend who is dedicated to leveling augment to 350, and HELP HIM/HER!  Level 70 rare augments. Nuff said. Not around me</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Upgrade spells: When I started tanking t7, I had all adept1-adept3.  Now I only have 5  attacks that are adept3, and I rarely use them anyways when tanking.  The difference is very noticable.<FONT color=#ffff00> All M1</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. Bring 3 healers.  I find that 3 healers (druid, mystic, templar) lets me go all out dps, even against yellow conned heroic named.  Templar sticks to heal, mystic debuffs and heals, druid dpses, and is there for emergencys.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Which other tank needs 3 priests in a group? With 3 priests in a group, you can put a ranger in front of mob and they can do it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. AA's, AA's AA's:  I'm already deep into the new AA's.  IT HELPS!  Especially dodge, no power cost, you dodge the next attack, that would have hit.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats about it.  Good luck to you all, and I hope this helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by DynamicPerformance on <SPAN class=date_text>11-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for your time tho... Everytime I see I-know-better-person, I give the exact reaction and just think they have lucky to bring 3 pocket healers with them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 AM</span>

[Bladewind]

Needing 3 healers is a bti ridiculous.  I can see taking two for yellow/orange zones, but three is over the top.  If we do 'need' three right now, that means we need attention <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>To the OP:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Your advice is certainly good, to those who don't know it already.  Your attitude . . . yeah, well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. If there is a T7 monk on this board who doesn't know all of this already, i'll eat my Crescent Moon Skullcap.  And my Rickshaw, besides.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. If you typically tank in a group with 3 healers, it's no wonder you think we are all whiners.  As was said above, in heroic situations you could put a ranger in front of the MoB with a cleric, a druid and a shaman in group.  In fact i'll go one better -- in 99% of heroic encounters, you could put ANY CLASS IN THE GAME in front of the MoB and they could tank it in that group.  So, if, in fact you need three healers to tank content that others can tank with one or two, you are proving the point that brawler tanking needs help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Umm, yeah -- as with Selch, I have all Masters.  As I previously posted, I tanked all of Crypt of Valdoon and parts of Mistmoore with ONE healer -- and did fine (NOTE -- to be clear we ran out of time and only fought trash in Mistmoore -- it was tough, but we could handle it -- I would imagine the names in there would have been a different story).  What I did not do was either take/avoid damage (1) as well as a similarly equipped and skilled plate tank or (2) as well as I had hoped I would post patch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have always fought the battle on this board against the folks who make blanket statements that "brawlers cant tank."  That's wrong.  Brawlers can tank all heroic content in the game.  What brawlers could not do pre-EoF was stand in front of epic names.  The devs acknowledged that avoidance was broken in these situations -- epic names have such high to hit bonuses that they virtually ignore avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They SEEMED to be on a path to change this in EoF.  My experiences last night, however, make me very worried about whether they did, in fact, correct it.  I will tank some epics in the next few days, and we shall see.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Morrolan V on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>Selch, are you having difficulty tanking mobs? That is the question.  I havn't found a mob yet in the expansion that I couldn't solo (epics and yellow con excluded) before and after the expansion.  Took a little longer, but I was still able to do it.  I just listed what I used to do it. So if your not able, and I am. And something I am doing is working.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to respond, we don't NEED 3 healers.  Tell me what tank can go offensive against oranges and do well with 2?  I had 3 healers because that was ALL that was LFG. So I took them and we kicked [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], Freeport and otherwise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a personal note.  Please selch, PLEASE try to learn some more english if you want to communicate better.  Your english is already good, but it could be better. And it would really make conversing with you much easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"<FONT color=#ffff00>Which other tank needs 3 priests in a group? With 3 priests in a group, you can put a ranger in front of mob and they can do it."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can that ranger tank orange con heroic named in offensive?  We had a similarly geared ranger in group, and when I went LD he tried to tank *shakes head* didn't go so well, even in defensive. And how would he hold aggro?   I was only suggesting that until we hit the new stat caps, we should bring more healers along.   </DIV>

[selch]

<P>I'll list a bit:</P> <P>- I'm having difficulty, yes...</P> <P>- I don't solo much, nor try it much, beside low greens. I generally duo and keeping aggro on a duo is tougher than keeping aggro on a group of 6 which increase hate spreaded. You'r mezzed, mob is on your partner. She dies, you die. You get spikes, over-heal, try to get it back. To make enough DPS, both have to DPS. So hate control is not easier than a full group (against more than one mob encounters)</P> <P>- As everyone here know, my equipment, beside my weapons (tradable) are not fabled, legendaries from either quests or drops from non-raid instances (That is choice of calm game play after 4 years of EQ1)</P> <P>- I still think and insist as a tank class, I should not need Fabled equipment to tank heroics and heroic nameds. If a plate class can tank without fableds, so I should. "A group of 4 players with Handcrafted gear with App4 spells should be able to take even con or low yellow heroic nameds" and that is a dev comment from Beta boards (I would link it if beta boards was not closed), not mine, and I guess one of those Handcrafted gear with App4 players are tank you can guess. And I believe my gear qualifications are above that.</P> <P>- I always say "sorry for my poor English" but forgot here it seems.</P> <P>- Ranger in defensive can deal more damage than us in offensive if equal gear, so can keep taunting distance to minimum on single targets, you don't want to go offensive against more than one target.</P> <P>- I support that we are avoidance tanks, not mitigation tanks. Needing to buff our mitigation and 3 healer example on a "things to do before you tank" post shows that there is some problems with our avoidance (not that pink). Granted our main aggro keeping ability comes from our DPS, but being primary DPS is DPS'ers work, not ours. </P> <P>- Your attitude to people I did not like, sorry if I seem to offend you. People can have concerns and have their rights to express it.  "omg j0 n00b" attitude is not something I take seriously. </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:27 PM</span>

[Morrolan V]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DynamicPerformance wrote:<BR> <DIV>. . . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a personal note.  Please selch, PLEASE try to learn some more english if you want to communicate better.  Your english is already good, but it could be better. And it would really make conversing with you much easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>. . .<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Selch didn't say it but I will:  I suggest you take a hard look at all the glass in your own house before you go lobbing stones.   Selch and I don't agree about everything but I have never had a problem understanding him.</P> <P>Learn a little humilty -- just a little -- and you will not look like such an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>"As everyone here know, my equipment, beside my weapons (tradable) are not fabled, legendaries from either quests or drops from non-raid instances"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>" I still think and insist as a tank class, I should not need Fabled equipment to tank heroics and heroic nameds. If a plate class can tank without fableds, so I should. "A group of 4 players with Handcrafted gear with App4 spells should be able to take even con or low yellow heroic nameds" and that is a dev comment from Beta boards (I would link it if beta boards was not closed), not mine, and I guess one of those Handcrafted gear with App4 players are tank you can guess. And I believe my gear qualifications are above that."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tank fine without fableds <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In fact, I just fully fabled my pally alt, and he tanks worse IMO than my monk.  I switched to pally awhile back because I thought they would be better, being plate and all.  Nope.  Monks rule.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Ranger in defensive can deal more damage than us in offensive if equal gear, so can keep taunting distance to minimum on single targets, you don't want to go offensive against more than one target."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>??? Rangers do less up front DPS than monks. And i go offensive against multiple targets all the time, the more times i get hit, the more my damage shileds go off, the better my aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>" I support that we are avoidance tanks, not mitigation tanks. Needing to buff our mitigation and 3 healer example on a "things to do before you tank" post shows that there is some problems with our avoidance (not that pink). Granted our main aggro keeping ability comes from our DPS, but being primary DPS is DPS'ers work, not ours. " </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My mitigation is actually up about 12%, and my avoid is down 60%.  I did some parsing of the mobs afterwords, and it appears that I am taking correct damage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem your having is the effect of the increased stat cap. Mobs are now for players with augmented gear (once someone levels up to 350 shouldn't be that rare) God spells (rediculously overpowered btw) and increased stats.   If you stay where you were pre-expansion things are much harder.  My stats have gone up over 100 points already, so that might be a factor.</DIV>

[selch]

<DIV>I would like to have augmented gears as well, but they did not let Claymore rewards (which is best I can get) to be augmented <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>"Selch didn't say it but I will:  I suggest you take a hard look at all the glass in your own house before you go lobbing stones.   Selch and I don't agree about everything but I have never had a problem understanding him. <P>Learn a little humilty -- just a little -- and you will not look like such an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]."</P> <P> </P> <P>/violin</P> <P>My house is made of hard rocks.  I already apologized for this, but I'm sorry. I am getting SICK of the people complaining that they can't do something, when I've done it, and I did it without even thinking about it.  So I listed the things that I did.  Do i have an ego? Sure, the biggest ego you've ever seen. But I spent all last night helping players explore the zone, making sure cloaks were on the broker at a fair price, and directing people to the relevent posts on the forums.  I spent a whole hour answering tells before I just put /afk on and went to do some adventuring.  Also, I asked him nicely didn't I? I've been working on that. Asking nicely.</P> <P>"Your english is already good, but it could be better. And it would really make conversing with you much easier.  " <--- see? you quoted it yourself.  When I read some posts my brain melts.  Don't be so politically correct. </P></DIV>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>Claymore can't be augmented?  ugh. that sucks.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW: <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk_%28Everquest2%29" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk_%28Everquest2%29</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun with it. Lets see if we can't get some good info flowing.</DIV>

[selch]

<P>I guess it is all about looking out of the box. There may be many other factors effecting problems that people "whine" about (that includes me and I told my reasons) that you might not observe with your setup.</P> <P>I try to get equipment if I can find myself in our groups or by buying (and when it is available) , but I don't think that does not make me any less of tank in my gear category (which is heroic) which I believe beat many encounters that another duo within same gears can not dare.  But I know my limits, my skills and my weaknesses. So I try to develop myself to better if I can reach it.  However I don't think it is unfair for requesting same survivability with plate tank equivalent of same gear category player and heroic instances to be made for heroic gear (ofcourse beside specially tailored instances for upper tier players)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>I will say it one more time.  Nobody here is saying monks can't tank.  We are saying that monks can't tank as well as they should be able to, because the avoidance system is broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to political correctness, I actually laughed out loud when I read it.  You can say what you want, however you want.  I am clearly not going to get through to you about your unjustified arrogance, so I am done trying.  Enjoy your superiority . . .</DIV>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>OK. In my experiance so far, I have tanked better than the plate tanks I grouped with.  Thats my experiance.  I am personally very happy with the changes, And i'm looking forward to maxing my character all over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unjustified arrogance is an interesting choice of words.  I tanked, I didn't die. It was fun.  You tanked, you died (i assume) You didn't have fun.  So, what did we do differently? I posted what I did. Please post your experiance in response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember your arguing about a game.  I would say that you are arrogant in assuming that the game is broken, and not yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also please explain to me how avoidence is broken. </DIV>

[Morrolan V]

<P>Only responding regarding the question of whether avoidance is broken.</P> <DIV>In Gallenite's original post (<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194</A>) regarding the combat changes for EoF, he stated:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>"It [the old game mechanic, with mitigation, stat and avoidance caps easily reached] forced named raid encounters to have increased melee attack skills, which unfairly affected classes that rely more on avoidance."  This confirmed that the Devs were aware of the issue that players had seen for a long time: that high level names have to-hit bonuses that drastically curtail the effectiveness of avoidance.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Now, my experience in the game so far indicates that these to-hit bonuses are still there, and will still be a problem.  Against heroic content, that's merely an annoyance.  Against Epics, it's a matter of life and death.</SPAN></DIV>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>If we need 3 healers to tank a zone effectively now then you are basically saying we are broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i know we are not that broken as i tanked some of Obelisk of Blight earlier when the Pally had to leave urgently and i did ok with just a single warden healer. However medium heroic content has never been the problem its the top end namers and epics that always have been and still are way way harder for us to survive than anyone else in plate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until they get rid of the "to hit" bonuses competely or at least make a significant proportion of our avoidance uncontested vs mobs skill then we will always be subpar tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Illustrious on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>I keep seeing "get rid of to-hit bonuses" flying around, but I haven't seen a monk mention the Deflection vs Block issue. It's been hashed over quite a bit on the Bruiser forums (and in beta in a few threads), but maybe with more airtime and more people talking about it something might get done.</P> <P>History Lesson:</P> <P>Back when the game first came out, Brawlers used Shields. They were Fighters, they needed the blocking, they were avoidance tanks, taking away shield would mean we avoided less than the non-avoiders, wouldn't make sense.<BR>So tanking Brawlers were seen running around with these big Round Shields on their arms. Crazy stuff, I know.</P> <P>So someone had the brilliant idea (no sarcasm here, it was a good idea!) to remove the shield, and give us the Deflection skill. It's avoidance bonus fluctuated (from buckler at low level to round at higher, to what it is today).</P> <P>So, just to reiterate: <STRONG>They took away our shields, and gave us Deflection in it's place. <EM>Deflection is our Shield.</EM></STRONG></P> <P><BR>Flash Forward to LU29:</P> <P>Now the Dev's noticed that tanks were getting far more creamed than they wanted, but they didn't want to trivialize content so ANYONE could tank things... so what did they do? They made it so Blocking, using a shield, 1 third of their defense, <EM>is no longer affected by offense skill</EM>. This means it doesn't matter if it's Epic or Solo, all that matters is level.</P> <P>So what about Brawler tanks? What happened to our Shield? It's stuck factoring in offense skill, meaning it's next to useless against Epics.</P> <P>Now we have Paladins avoiding more hits against epics than a Monk tanking the exact same thing.</P> <P> </P> <P>You know what would go a LONG way to helping us tank better? Making Deflection uncontested by the mob's offense skill. Since Deflection is higher than Block, we'd end up avoiding more than Plate Tanks, but they mitigate more than us anyways, so we'd finally get this magical mystical "equalization" the devs had intended since the very beginning.</P> <P>And it would place ALL tanks in a higher level of defense than anyone else. So you won't have swashbucklers tanking epics, because only the real tanks have proper defenses against them.</P>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>Heh.  The only person posting on this over here is Gungo.  You bruisers - smarter than ya look!  :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This makes a lot of sense to me.  (And the fact that block is unaffected by skill check while deflect is makes NO sense at all.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mechanics are very similar to reducing to the to hit bonus.</DIV>

[RipFlex]

<P>The major change needed is the Developers of this game accept AVOIDANCE tanking period.  It's not game breaking or unfair to the plate wearers if you had a clue to balance them.  This is from an old old MMO called Ragnarok Online -  Assassin [ 95% flee (avoidance) next to no Damage reduction (Mitigation) and 25% less health than a knight.... Knight [95% Damage reduction (yep took 5% damage minimum 1 point) next to no flee (avoidance) and heaps of health].  the Games Damage reduction and Flee were formulated the same way.  My Assassin dodged 95% of all attacks and spike damage occasionally,  My Knight gotten hit most the time but taken only 5% damage and lots of 1 damages and with high vitality (Stamina) it made me highly resistant to combat effects (stun, stifle, roots).</P> <P>Why does this have to be complicated?</P> <P>My legendary master out the butt Monk with 2 fables btw took on underconned Scroll-bearer to help out a friend and another get their hat quest updated... Scroll-Bearer green at 70th and we ALL know this bugger has a bonus to hit and hits hard.  Guess what happened?  I expected CAKE... I died fast, second time around I used everything possble like fighting a named HoF creature and was kinda fine.  This is rediculous.</P> <P>Glad I made a Guardian to replace him.  Oh forgot to mention my 64th level Mastercrafted AD3 guardian tried Scroll-bearer... and ummm zzzzzz was easy... think he was whiteconned... ummm w.t.f.com?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by RipFlex on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 PM</span>

[Untalent]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<div></div> <p>I keep seeing "get rid of to-hit bonuses" flying around, but I haven't seen a monk mention the Deflection vs Block issue. It's been hashed over quite a bit on the Bruiser forums (and in beta in a few threads), but maybe with more airtime and more people talking about it something might get done.</p> <p>History Lesson:</p> <p>Back when the game first came out, Brawlers used Shields. They were Fighters, they needed the blocking, they were avoidance tanks, taking away shield would mean we avoided less than the non-avoiders, wouldn't make sense.So tanking Brawlers were seen running around with these big Round Shields on their arms. Crazy stuff, I know.</p> <p>So someone had the brilliant idea (no sarcasm here, it was a good idea!) to remove the shield, and give us the Deflection skill. It's avoidance bonus fluctuated (from buckler at low level to round at higher, to what it is today).</p> <p>So, just to reiterate: <strong>They took away our shields, and gave us Deflection in it's place. <em>Deflection is our Shield.</em></strong></p> <p>Flash Forward to LU29:</p> <p>Now the Dev's noticed that tanks were getting far more creamed than they wanted, but they didn't want to trivialize content so ANYONE could tank things... so what did they do? They made it so Blocking, using a shield, 1 third of their defense, <em>is no longer affected by offense skill</em>. This means it doesn't matter if it's Epic or Solo, all that matters is level.</p> <p>So what about Brawler tanks? What happened to our Shield? It's stuck factoring in offense skill, meaning it's next to useless against Epics.</p> <p>Now we have Paladins avoiding more hits against epics than a Monk tanking the exact same thing.</p> <p>You know what would go a LONG way to helping us tank better? Making Deflection uncontested by the mob's offense skill. Since Deflection is higher than Block, we'd end up avoiding more than Plate Tanks, but they mitigate more than us anyways, so we'd finally get this magical mystical "equalization" the devs had intended since the very beginning.</p> <p>And it would place ALL tanks in a higher level of defense than anyone else. So you won't have swashbucklers tanking epics, because only the real tanks have proper defenses against them.</p><hr></blockquote>This guy sounds smart... I like it!</div>

[Untalent]

<div><blockquote><hr>RipFlex wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>The major change needed is the Developers of this game accept AVOIDANCE tanking period.  It's not game breaking or unfair to the plate wearers if you had a clue to balance them.  This is from an old old MMO called Ragnarok Online -  Assassin [ 95% flee (avoidance) next to no Damage reduction (Mitigation) and 25% less health than a knight.... Knight [95% Damage reduction (yep took 5% damage minimum 1 point) next to no flee (avoidance) and heaps of health].  the Games Damage reduction and Flee were formulated the same way.  My Assassin dodged 95% of all attacks and spike damage occasionally,  My Knight gotten hit most the time but taken only 5% damage and lots of 1 damages and with high vitality (Stamina) it made me highly resistant to combat effects (stun, stifle, roots).</p> <p>Why does this have to be complicated?</p> <p>My legendary master out the butt Monk with 2 fables btw took on underconned Scroll-bearer to help out a friend and another get their hat quest updated... Scroll-Bearer green at 70th and we ALL know this bugger has a bonus to hit and hits hard.  Guess what happened?  I expected CAKE... I died fast, second time around I used everything possble like fighting a named HoF creature and was kinda fine.  This is rediculous.</p> <p>Glad I made a Guardian to replace him.  Oh forgot to mention my 64th level Mastercrafted AD3 guardian tried Scroll-bearer... and ummm zzzzzz was easy... think he was whiteconned... ummm w.t.f.com?</p> <p>Message Edited by RipFlex on <span class="date_text">11-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:06 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I played Rag online also... I totally agree here. We are the assassins of Ragnarok. So give us avoidance comparable to the other fighters mitigation and lower their avoidance seeing as they wear plate and mitigate a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load. Would make sense....</div>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>Sagacious musings.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree completely.  I don't understand the pittering around with deflection and talking about 'maybe making part of deflection unaffected by mob offensive skills.'  Is block only partially unaffected?  No.  Block is wholly uncontested by mob offesnive skill.  Similarly, the case should be the same for deflection, the brawler's shield. </P> <P>As was stated, this one change will give brawlers the highest avoidance in all scenarios (golly, we are avoidance tanks after all), put us into a more stable equilibrium with high mitigation tanks, and put rogue tanks at a slight disadvantage to true tank classes.  It seems so simple and so elegant, and I am baffled as to why it has not been done already.</P><p>Message Edited by Bladewind on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:36 PM</span>

[Mordith]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>DynamicPerformance wrote:<div> </div> <div>On a personal note.  Please selch, PLEASE try to learn some more english if you want to communicate better.  Your english is already good, but it could be better. And it would really make conversing with you much easier.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Your elitist attitude was bad enough until this moronic statement.  Try looking at your own "english" before commenting on the grammar of someone else.  Oh, and for example, the correct word is "you're" not "your" and it is spelled "haven't" not "havn't."</div><p>Message Edited by Mordith on <span class=date_text>11-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:36 AM</span>

6. Bring 3 healers.wow. You are a god. Tell me more the secrets of the Monk Tank.<div></div>

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>"Your english is already good, but it could be better"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and for example, the correct word is "you're" not "your"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you want me to write</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>You are english is already good, but it could be better?</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I went to the zones, I tanked the zones. I lived and had fun in the zones.  I Saw a bunch of people whining that the game is broken. So I listed the things I did that contributed to my success.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"6. Bring 3 healers.<BR><BR>wow. You are a god. Tell me more the secrets of the Monk Tank."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>" I give the exact reaction and just think they have lucky to bring 3 pocket healers with them."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look. I don't have 3 "pocket healers". We don't NEED 3 healers.  It helps me though.  Take it how you will. As with the other items, you don't HAVE to do it. I'm sure complaining on the forums for the next 3 months till they change everything around again will make you all happy, right?<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by DynamicPerformance on <span class=date_text>11-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:40 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I don't think the sky is falling, however I do believe heavily in balance, equality, fairness, and "getting what was promised".Regardless if it's "possible", I think it should be "easier". It's "possible" for scouts to tank... it should be "easier" for a Brawler to tank than a scout.I'm just curious DP... are you against the idea of allowing Deflection to be uncontested like Block is currently? I personally don't think it's a whine to give feedback, suggestions, and logical considerations of the current mechanics.Then again.. maybe you weren't talking about me. I'm just getting a real "you vs us" vibe from your posts.<div></div>

[KazzySoJaz]

Re-roll as a scout class, they not only out dps you, but also take damage better, with equal or a tiny bit less avoidance. (This is for the people who like to dps  mostly, but also like to tank a tiny bit)Re-roll as a Zerker (Not only will you tank better, but you will also DPS better).Sadly, it seems the only thing that keeps people playing their monks is the time they invested in the character.  I suggest you try another class, and still see if the fight is worth it.  <div></div>

[Mordith]

<div><blockquote><hr>DynamicPerformance wrote:<div></div> <div>"Your english is already good, but it could be better"</div> <div> </div> <div>Oh, and for example, the correct word is "you're" not "your"</div> <div> </div> <div>So you want me to write</div> <div> </div> <div><em>You are english is already good, but it could be better?</em></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>/sigh</div> <div> </div> . . .<hr>I was referring to this statement from you:"So if <i><b>your</b></i> not able, and I am. And something I am doing is working."My monk is fairly low level (44 monk and 70 conj) so I often look in these forums for suggestions and pointers.  A lot of what you said will go unheeded due to the way you worded your original post and your replies.   The point is, if you have something to share, go ahead and share it without resorting to an elitist attitude.  I can use all of the help I can get when playing a monk.</blockquote></div>

[EasternKing]

<DIV>ok not wanting any insults here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the reason brawlers do not get an unmodifed deflection roll is becuase its 360degrees ...i dont know how many times this has to be restated ..you as a brawler get 3 full avoid checks from any angle ...all the time</DIV> <DIV>all other fighters get 3 checks in a frontal 90degree cone ..anyplace else they get 1 check on base avoid and thats it......having an unmodified 35% chance ot block 360 is to powerful plain and simple. to give you unmodified they would have to drop deflection back to a 90degree frontal only cone then you have your shield block back.</DIV> <DIV>and before you start with how many mobs do you not tank from the front  every single group encounter heroic or raid ..unless your lucky youll end up with 1-3mobs flanking you ..regardless of how well you dance about trying to place them...this is where an unmodifed 35% chance to riposte 180 degrees frontal or 180degrees parry would be vastly unbalanced ..yes on single mobs heroic / named epic's it isnt an issue ...but for every group encounter they have in the game it would be massivley unbalanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and just a fyi my tower shield gives me 19.3% block chance ..i dunno where the 30% is coming from.</DIV>

[selch]

<P>On every heroic / named / epic -> 180 degrees 20% (base, try some adornment) uncontested + 35% contested 360 degrees + mit > 60% contested 360 degrees + lower mit regardless angle.</P> <P>That is reason we wear 2 rating below armor. What's the logic in a heavy plate can avoid better than an avoidance tank? Where is the compansation of 2 rating below armor difference? Well, for sure I don't call "solo" mobs as tanking and heroics and above lowers defense / deflection / parry all at once. <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>11-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 AM</span>

[Chay]

Ok first off... this is a forum board. If your counter to an statement or argument is to correct someone's grammar or spelling you're simply trying to one up them and that's pointless. Get over it with the grammar and spelling policing. It's a message board. People type, typos happen. There's a term for people who obsessively correct people over things like that. It's called being petty. If you understand enough what they said then leave it at that. PLEASE! Thanks.Now on to the subject. A monk shouldn't need Legendary, Fabled, or even Adebt 3s to tank. No one should. You should be able to be effective in your level range against common enemies with common equipment solo. Heroic stuff? Well, the expectation is that it should be proportionally more difficult as long as there is a proportional reward for defeating it. But getting into all of that is really missing the point and that is avoidance tanks shouldn't be prom dresses.<div></div>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <P>On every heroic / named / epic -> 180 degrees 20% (base, try some adornment) uncontested + 35% contested 360 degrees + mit > 60% contested 360 degrees + lower mit regardless angle.</P> <P>That is reason we wear 2 rating below armor. What's the logic in a heavy plate can avoid better than an avoidance tank? Where is the compansation of 2 rating below armor difference? Well, for sure I don't call "solo" mobs as tanking and heroics and above mitigates defense / deflection / parry all at once. <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:29 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Selch i dont know where your getting 180 from ..a shield gives 90degrees....and saying its unmodifed is not entirley true its still modifed just not by 1 rating all others still apply </P> <P>and are you really telling me that 360 35% unmodifed is not over powered ? im all for you getting a 90 dgree frontal unmodified like plate get on shields but 360 is unbalanced and the reason why you dont have an unmodified check.</P> <P>and plate doesnt avoid better than avoid ..i really dont understand your logic 90degrees frontal 3 checks with 270 degrees with a single base avoid check is less than 3 full avoid checks with 180 riposte / 180 parry ..by a long shot. (or 90degree riposte / 270 parry)</P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>11-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:35 AM</span>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>Selch i dont know where your getting 180 from ..a shield gives 90degrees....and saying its unmodifed is not entirley true its still modifed just not by 1 rating all others still apply <P>and are you really telling me that 360 35% unmodifed is not over powered ? im all for you getting a 90 dgree frontal unmodified like plate get on shields but 360 is unbalanced and the reason why you dont have an unmodified check.</P> <P>and plate doesnt avoid better than avoid ..i really dont understand your logic 90degrees frontal 3 checks with 270 degrees with a single base avoid check is less than 3 full avoid checks with 180 riposte / 180 parry ..by a long shot. (or 90degree riposte / 270 parry)</P> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on 11-17-200608:35 AM</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Eastern king</P> <P> </P> <P>The fact that block is uncontested vs skill level means a even con solo mob has the same chance to miss as an even con epix x4. Now seen as i dont often tank with my back towards my target i would take that over a 360 degree skill that is almost cpmpletely ignored by any top namer or epic in game.</P> <P> </P> <P>And yes plates can and do often avoid more that brawlers, i have personally checked parses of PoS where me and a Pally have each tanked one of the dragons, and he not only gets hit a lot less hard (which he should) but also a lot less often than me (which is kinda sad imo). and that is Vs green epics!! Havent done that zone for a long time now but i posted some parses of it a while back on this forum to say how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up it was then, maybe i will search the post out soon where i had the parses listed as proof.</P></DIV>

[Morrolan V]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>. . .</P> <P>and are you really telling me that 360 35% unmodifed is not over powered ? im all for you getting a 90 dgree frontal unmodified like plate get on shields but 360 is unbalanced and the reason why you dont have an unmodified check.</P> <P>. . .</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Brawlers have 360 degree deflection because we have so much less mitigation than plate tanks.  The appropriate comparison here is not deflection to block, but deflection to mitigation.  Mitigation = 360 degrees, and is not reduced by MoB skill, so deflection should be the same.  That's not overpowering, it's balance.</P> <P>Now, the fact that <EM>block </EM>is a better avoidance skill from the front than deflection against high end MoBs is just an absolute cluster [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>The only thing that's imbalanced here is that the skill check mechanic screws brawlers against MoBs with very high offensive skill.  Making the correction we are asking for would fix that, and would not imbalance anything in the majority of encounters, since the majority of encounters don't have very high offensive skill.</P><p>Message Edited by Morrolan V on <span class=date_text>11-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 AM</span>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morrolan V wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>. . .</P> <P>and are you really telling me that 360 35% unmodifed is not over powered ? im all for you getting a 90 dgree frontal unmodified like plate get on shields but 360 is unbalanced and the reason why you dont have an unmodified check.</P> <P>. . .</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Brawlers have 360 degree deflection because we have so much less mitigation than plate tanks.  The appropriate comparison here is not deflection to block, but deflection to mitigation.  Mitigation = 360 degrees, and is not reduced by MoB skill, so deflection should be the same.  That's not overpowering, it's balance.</P> <P><EM><STRONG>Now, the fact that block is a better avoidance skill from the front than deflection against high end MoBs is just an absolute cluster</STRONG> </EM>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>The only thing that's imbalanced here is that the skill check mechanic screws brawlers against MoBs with very high offensive skill.  Making the correction we are asking for would fix that, and would not imbalance anything in the majority of encounters, since the majority of encounters don't have very high offensive skill.</P> <P>Message Edited by Morrolan V on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>so hiding behind a 10foot by 6foot magical tower shield makes less sense than trying to avoid an attack does it ? blockin with a tower sheild is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sight easier than trying to dodge an attack ..especially when your using a tower shield...what happens in effect is the warrior plants the shield and positions himself behind it meaning there is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good chance a warrior will be missed and the shield struck .</P> <P>so please stop with warriors shouldnt be avoiding stuff, ...rom the front a warrior should be stronger than a monk ..its the best area of defense ..where a brawler specalises in blocking attacks from every angle ..a warrior does it in one area of attack ie the front.</P>

[Morrolan V]

<P>Oh!  You're right of course.  Because in the middle ages, when armored knights fought dragons, beholders and giant turtles with the aid of dark elf wizards, half frog/half man scouts and various priests able to directly channel divine favor, tower shields were empirically and definitively shown to be more effective than ancient martial techniques in avoiding the physical and magical attacks of these terrible beasts.</P> <P>This is a game.  The game designers create the reality.  "Real" reality has nothing to do with it.</P> <P>The questions are (1) whether, within the game reality, the characters, if properly equipped and played, are able to perform the functions the designers intended and (2) whether, with approximately equal equipment and player skill, there is rough balance in the abilities of different character classes.</P> <P>With respect to brawlers, the answer to both of those questions, in the context of raids, is presently no.  This does not mean brawlers are broken across the board -- these effects are not an issue for 99% of the content and players in the game.  It just means that brawlers ability to avoid attacks against ultra-high end mobs needs to be increased.  Do that, and it's fixed.</P>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morrolan V wrote:<BR> <P>Oh!  You're right of course.  Because in the middle ages, when armored knights fought dragons, beholders and giant turtles with the aid of dark elf wizards, half frog/half man scouts and various priests able to directly channel divine favor, tower shields were empirically and definitively shown to be more effective than ancient martial techniques in avoiding the physical and magical attacks of these terrible beasts.</P> <P>This is a game.  The game designers create the reality.  "Real" reality has nothing to do with it.</P> <P>The questions are (1) whether, within the game reality, the characters, if properly equipped and played, are able to perform the functions the designers intended and (2) whether, with approximately equal equipment and player skill, there is rough balance in the abilities of different character classes.</P> <P>With respect to brawlers, the answer to both of those questions, in the context of raids, is presently no.  This does not mean brawlers are broken across the board -- these effects are not an issue for 99% of the content and players in the game.  It just means that brawlers ability to avoid attacks against ultra-high end mobs needs to be increased.  Do that, and it's fixed.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Precisely.</P> <P>Right now, vs high end heroics and epics, we are useless.  One minor fix will remedy this without unbalancing anything else since the requested change is to a brawler only skill.  Changing deflection to act like block will also not give brawlers any new advantage - it will merely allow us to tank high con heroics and tank/offtank raid mobs as needed.  IE, it will allow us to fill our archetype again for the first time in half a year.</P>

[RipFlex]

<P>I gave up beating this dead horse, I respected for Offense DPS... LFG DPS anyone ?</P> <P>Now to figure out the Offense tree in the Monk AA line... that chart looks confusing....</P> <P> </P>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morrolan V wrote:<BR> <P>Oh!  You're right of course.  Because in the middle ages, when armored knights fought dragons, beholders and giant turtles with the aid of dark elf wizards, half frog/half man scouts and various priests able to directly channel divine favor, tower shields were empirically and definitively shown to be more effective than ancient martial techniques in avoiding the physical and magical attacks of these terrible beasts.</P> <P><STRONG><U>This is a game.  The game designers create the reality.  "Real" reality has nothing to do with it.</U></STRONG></P> <P>The questions are (1) whether, within the game reality, the characters, if properly equipped and played, are able to perform the functions the designers intended and (2) whether, with approximately equal equipment and player skill, there is rough balance in the abilities of different character classes.</P> <P>With respect to brawlers, the answer to both of those questions, in the context of raids, is presently no.  This does not mean brawlers are broken across the board -- these effects are not an issue for 99% of the content and players in the game.  It just means that brawlers ability to avoid attacks against ultra-high end mobs needs to be increased.  Do that, and it's fixed.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ok for one where did i say in real life this is such and such ..im well aware im playing fantasy game.. i said warriors excel at defending themselves from the front ..they dont stand there and just get beat on ...which is what you brawlers seem to think all a warror does ....and while wer at this is a game ....how may times have plate tanks seen whiny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] posts by brawlers stating that they shouldnt be so agile and be able to avoid so well because there in plate armour and plate armour is restrictive of movement .....welll like you so aptly pointed out ...this is a game its a game where i play a plate wearing warrior ..i wear a full suit of magical plate armour ..i use a selection of magical shields and weapons ...seeing the point yet ?</P> <P>this is a game in every extent of the word.....deal with the fact that a fighter that specialises in not being hit to stay alive is not ever going to be a really viable and top end raid tank.  to make you one would make you impossible to hit in any other area of the game....thats not going to happen.</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Oh dear lord.. you really have a hard on for the 360 degree thing don't you?Don't you remember way back in the day when Brawlers weren't defending well because they had lower mitigation and avoidance only covered frontal? The devs came out and changed it to what it is now because of the following:Plate tanks = Mitigation as primary defense = Mitigation is 360Brawlers = Avoidance as primary defense = Avoidance is now 360We were made <b>equal</b> with having 360 Defense. It also followed a lot of martial arts flavour you see everywhere else.You can't pull that up as an excuse as to why we don't get uncontested avoidance. It's already a balancing factor for having low defense in the normally 360 defense mechanism.Plus it's worlds of difference... being able to block even a portion of an Epic's attacks as if they were a Solo mob is so far and beyond better than 360 defense. It means the difference between actually being able to tank an Epic, and getting your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to you.If avoidance means "next to nothing" against Epics, then having it at 360 degrees will only mean you've got a whole lot of next to nothing defense if there's the off chance that we get something behind us, and it still means next to nothing against the single target.Face it.. we won't be chosen for tanks because of our aggro issues. At best we will be able to handle single target. So 360 degree avoidance isn't even a factor in Epic fights... it just helps a little in keeping us "even" when fighting heroic stuff.There is no reason at all to not give Deflection the same considerations as Block. And according to Gungo, Lockeye agrees with that. So I don't see what the problem is here.<div></div>

[Karamonde]

I give up :pjust remove us from "Tank" archetype and let me go pull  my dragon without killing the whole zone and dps it while the Warrior do his job and keep the dragy from eating the rest of the party.And people asking for more mit should try to us the plate thingy stuff, might do you good<div></div>

[Morrolan V]

For those who haven't seen it yet: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117510#M117510" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117510#M117510</A>

[Kainsei]

<div><blockquote><hr>Morrolan V wrote:<div></div>For those who haven't seen it yet: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117510#M117510" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117510#M117510</a><hr></blockquote>Thanks for the info !I hope they will fix this soon and I hope they will do it <b><u>properly</u></b>, wait and see...</div>