Let down again?

[Illustrious]

<DIV> <P><B><SPAN>Avoidance in Combat</SPAN></B></P> <P><SPAN>- Display:  The way avoidance is displayed has changed.  A value similar to mitigation is now used to show your overall avoidance.  A tool tip displays details for those who desire more information.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN> - Parry Check:  (Base 5%, Chance increases with additional parry skill.)  The chance to parry an incoming attack is modified by level and offense skill of the mob you are fighting.  Note:  A base 20% of parries turn into ripostes.  (Modified by certain achievements)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN> <STRONG>-<U> Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill</U>.</STRONG></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN> - Deflection Check:  (Monk / Bruiser only) Base 25%, Chance increases with additional Deflection skill.  The chance to deflect an incoming attack is modified by level offense skill of the mob you are fighting.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN> - Dodge Check:  (Everyone) Base chance is determined by type of armor worn.  Chance increases with additional Defense Skill and Agility.  The chance to dodge an incoming attack is modified by level and offense skill of the mob you are fighting.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Is  it just me that feels let down again after the latest combat changes with regards to tanking?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>As the only class that depends almost entirely on avoidance to tank we are the only class to NOT get an uncontested roll against any avoidance check. Seen as they have kept in extra offensive skills on namers/epics then not only will our Mitigation be the worst (which it should be) but our avoidance will be worse as well or at least on par with plate tanks.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Was expecting to be at least in the same ball park with tanking and dont say that we have dps/utility so deserve to tank crap</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Zerkers - great dps nice grp buffs AND great tanking</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Guards - meh dps but the best tanking</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Pally - good utility, good grp buffs  and pretty good tanking</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>SK - good dps amd ok tanking, aggro maybe a problem but EoF  AA i hear have satisfied that at least to a certain degree</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Monks - good dps, ok utility, so so  buff and ok heroic tanking</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>bruisers - good dps, ok utility,so so buff and slightly better than monks tanking</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Maybe im jumping the gun here as i havent even tested it out on live yet..but that 1 part on update notes really peeved me off. I do not want to be able to tank epics as well as warriors or even crusaders...but lets at least keep us all in the same league.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Just make defection uncontested, it wont help us on normal heroics/solo as apparently they dont have any to hit bonus anyways, but it will help us at least have more of a shout on top namers/epics where we are already at a major disadvantage due to low miti.</SPAN></P></DIV>

[Malar]

I thought monks got a built in shield ? And I thought that was the reason we couldn't wear a shield like other fighters. It sounds to me that they took that away ? Something doesn't sound right.

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>What is the base % on a shield?  Is it 25% like deflection (our shield)?  That seems awefully high.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers get 25% deflect. I would say that even adjusted, it should be better than a shield. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The way I see it working:</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Against a green con, the shield is 15% , and deflect is 35%</DIV></DIV> <DIV>Against a blue con, the shield is 15% , and deflect is 30%</DIV> <DIV>Against a white con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 25%</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Against a yellow con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 20%</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Against a orange con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 15%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now its probably not as neat as all that, but that looks to me like the balance they want. Can someone test to see?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>Block on a decent tower shield is about 20% or so, which can i belive be raised at least by some classes with AA to about 30%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So hmm 20-30% uncontested roll or 25% contested..think i know which 1 has the edge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deflection is 360 degrees of course compared to what 90 or 120 degree for block, but then again how often do you tank while facing away from mobs?</DIV>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DynamicPerformance wrote:<BR> <DIV>What is the base % on a shield?  Is it 25% like deflection (our shield)?  That seems awefully high.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers get 25% deflect. I would say that even adjusted, it should be better than a shield. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The way I see it working:</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Against a green con, the shield is 15% , and deflect is 35%</DIV></DIV> <DIV>Against a blue con, the shield is 15% , and deflect is 30%</DIV> <DIV>Against a white con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 25%</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Against a yellow con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 20%</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Against a orange con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 15%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now its probably not as neat as all that, but that looks to me like the balance they want. Can someone test to see?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Depends on the shield a lvl 70 tower shield gives 20% block, but they can add 4 adornments in beta for an extra 4%, and 2 classes recieve block aa's that raises that to a total 30%.</P> <P>Our base deflection is 25% w previously max 420 deflection that total reach ~35%+</P> <P>Here is the deal both block and deflection are reduced by mob level. So it doesnt matter for comparison. the big difference is offensive skill checks. It while high con have higher offensive skills, so do named, as well as quality (solo<Heroic<Epic). So versus a named(1) lvl 74(2) epic(3) we recieve 3 times the reduction that block incurs. the harder a mob becomes the worse our avodiance gets whereas block is a static varible only reduced by the level of a mob. (not including the offesnive skill)  </P> <P>Also it is worth noting certain classes of NPCS have offensive skill buffs which also reduce deflection, but not block. </P> <P>Doesn't seem right for an avodiance tank to avoid less does it. But it is true. a simple fix to allow deflection to be uncontested vs offesnive skill only would fix the entire brawler avodiance issue. And wouldn't be overpowering since deflection is effectivly capped at 455 skill or ~35% at max. That seems fair to me considering plate tanks can reach 30% block with the right setups AND have higher mitigation. And since green and non named do not have higher offensive skills it would not overpower our soloing. More then likely provide no noticable change on normal white heroic of below. </P>

[Untalent]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote: <blockquote> <hr> DynamicPerformance wrote: <div></div> <div>What is the base % on a shield?  Is it 25% like deflection (our shield)?  That seems awefully high.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Brawlers get 25% deflect. I would say that even adjusted, it should be better than a shield. </div> <div> </div> <div>The way I see it working:</div> <div> <div>Against a green con, the shield is 15% , and deflect is 35%</div></div> <div>Against a blue con, the shield is 15% , and deflect is 30%</div> <div>Against a white con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 25%</div> <div> <div>Against a yellow con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 20%</div> <div> <div>Against a orange con, the shield is 15%, deflect is 15%</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Now its probably not as neat as all that, but that looks to me like the balance they want. Can someone test to see?</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div></div></div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Depends on the shield a lvl 70 tower shield gives 20% block, but they can add 4 adornments in beta for an extra 4%, and 2 classes recieve block aa's that raises that to a total 30%.</p> <p>Our base deflection is 25% w previously max 420 deflection that total reach ~35%+</p> <p>Here is the deal both block and deflection are reduced by mob level. So it doesnt matter for comparison. the big difference is offensive skill checks. It while high con have higher offensive skills, so do named, as well as quality (solo<Heroic<Epic). So versus a named(1) lvl 74(2) epic(3) we recieve 3 times the reduction that block incurs. the harder a mob becomes the worse our avodiance gets whereas block is a static varible only reduced by the level of a mob. (not including the offesnive skill)  </p> <p>Also it is worth noting certain classes of NPCS have offensive skill buffs which also reduce deflection, but not block. </p> <p>Doesn't seem right for an avodiance tank to avoid less does it. But it is true. a simple fix to allow deflection to be uncontested vs offesnive skill only would fix the entire brawler avodiance issue. And wouldn't be overpowering since deflection is effectivly capped at 455 skill or ~35% at max. That seems fair to me considering plate tanks can reach 30% block with the right setups AND have higher mitigation. And since green and non named do not have higher offensive skills it would not overpower our soloing. More then likely provide no noticable change on normal white heroic of below. </p><hr></blockquote>We really need the devs to read stuff like this. What must we do to get our voices heard?</div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>Ah, here's the post about it in the monk forum... good, good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone needs to "gently" remind the Devs that Deflection IS our shield replacement, and if shields are going to be uncontested to make tanking possible, we need it on our deflection.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To set some things straight here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shield for Plate tanks = Deflection for Brawlers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>360 Mitigation (higher tanking facotr) for Plate tanks = 360 Avoidance (higher tanking facotr) for Brawlers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS for Plate tanks with AA options = DPS for Brawlers with AA options (face it.. I've seen Guardians parse over 1k, AAs broke the DPS barrier)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Block uncontested means Deflection should be uncontested. Simple as that.</DIV>

[Gungo]

Lockeye told me today a PORTION of deflection will be uncontested. Dunno if that means a hardcap or % of deflection will be uncontested i don't know. He did say it wasn't ready for the beta cut, but should  be patched soon. he also said he was looking into avoidance checks specifically. As there have been a few posts of avodiance not properly checking each skill (defense, parry, deflection, block etc).

[Untalent]

Sweet Gungo<div></div>

[Prodigus]

Had a chance to 3box Mines of Meldrath yesterday (lvl 50-55 Heroic instance).  Heres my team: 67 Monk, 59 Fury, 50 Warlock.  I mentored Monk to 59.I never had to drink on the fury as I almost never had to heal, except maybe after battle.  Since the update I am casting HoT about every 20 seconds or so, with the occasion 700 HP heal to catch up.  So now I am healing ALOT!  I am definately taking MUCH more damage then before, and from heroics no less.  I'd hate to see Epics now.  /cringe.Lets hope this "fix/patch" comes sooner then later.  Anyone else have some first hand experience?<div></div>

[artophwar]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc>I know I am taking a lot more damage than normal when I solo names in SoS, but I was still able to solo names up to lvl 66 ^^^ and got the 67 ^^^ named at the very bottom to 10% hp before I ran out of power and wiped =[. Normally I could kill him without using my heal with about 20% hp. Of course we have the capability to be around 30% stronger once we have 50 aa's and all the augmentations, and hopefully by then the strength mobs under the new combat system will be null. It basically feels like we are in treasured gear instead of fabled/legendary.</FONT></SPAN></P>

[Rrawl]

<DIV>Have to agree I'm feeling a bit nerfed. But the new AA's, the adornments, and the deity stuff are all there for us to learn and master and further improve with.</DIV>

[SouthernAvenger]

You know what upsets me the most, that in my guild our main tank. His avodiance is about 10% less than mine...... and his mit is way higher, my avd is about 75-80% depending on buffs in what not.<div></div>

[Farborg]

<DIV>Yes my guild invited me to the group instance in LFay at the Oblisk. Main Tank was a level 70 Paladin in Full Relic, 70 Fury,70 Dirge, 70 Warlock, 70 Necro and my level 70 Monk in 80% Fabled.</DIV> <DIV> We pulled a group of 3 level 68 Heroic ^^^ mobs. I tried to off tank one of them. I was in offensive stance and was getting hit alot for 880-1180 ( more often than not over 1k ). I had to FD and then jump back in.</DIV> <DIV> My MIT was 3689 and Avoidance at 9839 in defensice stance and i cant handle 1 Heroic add for more than a few seconds without droping to below 50% health after a few hits. I have no problem getting an add off of a caster but then i need to FD or drop dead.</DIV> <DIV> I used to be able to take a Heroic add off the group with no problem and keep it busy till the MT killed his mob. I could even off tank a few with just a few heals from out Templar. But now 2 adds will drop me in 10 seconds or less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to be Main Tank. But i loved the ability to peel off adds and live for more than 10 seconds. My role was to help the group live to kill another mob. And if the Main tank was killed or goes LD i could still fill in the role in a pinch.</DIV> <DIV>I tried to MT 1 heroic mob to try it out and i got my butt handed to me. I had to FD at 10% and let the Paladin get agro.</DIV> <DIV> Any one else notice this ? I will try again tonight. But looks for now like i cant tank for a group till this gets fixed.</DIV>

[Microphage]

<P>Hmm, I don't think we are going to see much help from the devs.  They apparantly are leaving some form of to-hit bonuses for heroic, named, and epics.  So we will likely stay at a considerable disadvantage to the plate tanks.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117135#M117135" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117135#M117135</A></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Quote:</P> <P>Q: My avoidance says I have a 70% chance to avoid an attack but yellow heroic mobs hit me more like 70% of the time, why?</P> <P>A: Your avoidance score is calculated against an even level, no arrow, solo mob. Any changes in level or difficulty (up or down arrows) to the mob will act as a modifier to this score. This is why the display was changed to show a raw number instead of a percentage by default. Higher, is always better but you cannot compare the avoidance number against the armor number, these are two very different calculations and cannot be directly compared.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Add in plate tanks getting some of their aoidance uncontested and things are downright depressing.</P>

[selch]

<DIV>Translation of latest dev post: Go [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] yourselves, we screwed up making avoidance tanking viable even we promised at first, but realised avoidance tanking can make brawlers also desirable tanks so decided not to,  found another excuses here's the list... But hey, look on the bright side, you can still solo the "solo" mobs...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>11-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:28 PM</span>

[Untalent]

<div><blockquote><hr>Farborg wrote:<div>Yes my guild invited me to the group instance in LFay at the Oblisk. Main Tank was a level 70 Paladin in Full Relic, 70 Fury,70 Dirge, 70 Warlock, 70 Necro and my level 70 Monk in 80% Fabled.</div> <div> We pulled a group of 3 level 68 Heroic ^^^ mobs. I tried to off tank one of them. I was in offensive stance and was getting hit alot for 880-1180 ( more often than not over 1k ). I had to FD and then jump back in.</div> <div> My MIT was 3689 and Avoidance at 9839 in defensice stance and i cant handle 1 Heroic add for more than a few seconds without droping to below 50% health after a few hits. I have no problem getting an add off of a caster but then i need to FD or drop dead.</div> <div> I used to be able to take a Heroic add off the group with no problem and keep it busy till the MT killed his mob. I could even off tank a few with just a few heals from out Templar. But now 2 adds will drop me in 10 seconds or less.</div> <div> </div> <div>I dont want to be Main Tank. But i loved the ability to peel off adds and live for more than 10 seconds. My role was to help the group live to kill another mob. And if the Main tank was killed or goes LD i could still fill in the role in a pinch.</div> <div>I tried to MT 1 heroic mob to try it out and i got my butt handed to me. I had to FD at 10% and let the Paladin get agro.</div> <div> Any one else notice this ? I will try again tonight. But looks for now like i cant tank for a group till this gets fixed.</div><hr></blockquote>Depressing</div>

[Untalent]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Microphage wrote:<div></div> <p>Hmm, I don't think we are going to see much help from the devs.  They apparantly are leaving some form of to-hit bonuses for heroic, named, and epics.  So we will likely stay at a considerable disadvantage to the plate tanks.</p> <p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117135#M117135" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=117135#M117135</a></p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p>Quote:</p> <p>Q: My avoidance says I have a 70% chance to avoid an attack but yellow heroic mobs hit me more like 70% of the time, why?</p> <p>A: Your avoidance score is calculated against an even level, no arrow, solo mob. Any changes in level or difficulty (up or down arrows) to the mob will act as a modifier to this score. This is why the display was changed to show a raw number instead of a percentage by default. Higher, is always better but you cannot compare the avoidance number against the armor number, these are two very different calculations and cannot be directly compared.</p></blockquote> <p>Add in plate tanks getting some of their aoidance uncontested and things are downright depressing.</p><hr></blockquote>After reading the entire dev post.... I feel we are getting the shaft.Full fabled monks that are losing MAJOR tanking ability is some bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. While us average monks are losing most of ours.</div><p>Message Edited by Untalented on <span class=date_text>11-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 PM</span>