Happy to share with my tank brethern...

[selch]

<DIV>Martial Order is now transfering hate to us by 1% per rank... I wanted to thank Hamoto for giving us wonderful news and share this with all of our monk brethern...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5025/martialorderwh1.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Good, now if they'd just replace the de-agro stance altogether and replace it with our single taunt, we'd be tanks again.</DIV>

[selch]

<P>While happy with this change Ouka, while I don't think we need deaggros, I guess de-aggro has its place for those who wishes it as DPS side... I don't think we have any problem with single target aggro keeping whatsoever. </P> <P>What makes it more viable in this case:</P> <P>- Can change places of  Frozen Palm and Sprint</P> <P>- Instead of Radius increase of Whirl (Crescent Strike), it can be made damage increase to keep AE aggro. </P> <P>- Increase debuffing defense from 15.8 max to 50 (as bruiser equivalent 50 c/p/s debuff) OR add CPS debuff to monk Punishing Cobra , 10 per rank... C/P/S debuff means lesser offense, means lesser holes in our avoidance for tanking.</P> <P>- Tsunami timer to be reduced 7% re-cast time reduction per rank (or duration to be increased 1.5 seconds per rank)</P> <P>- Heal timer to be reduced 7% re-cast time reduction per rank</P> <P>- Group Feign Dead timer reduction like 7% per rank</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 PM</span>

[Nerill]

Very nice change for the Tanking Monk. Grats ! :smileyhappy:

[jrolla777]

this makes me happy<div></div>

[Karamonde]

Great so dps and tank monk can all co-existe in peace : )<div></div>

[Bladewind]

While I like this better than what the original change was, I kind of prefer to keep this skill free of either a hate siphon or sink.  If I am the lone fighter ina  group, I'll put it on the person most likely to gain aggro for obvious reasons.  However, if I am not the loan fighter, I will always want the other fighter's version of this buff on me as the benefit is is much greater than the tiny self-buff I get when catsing it upon myself.  This means I won't get to use the hate gain aspect.  Oh well, at least we get a second hate gain option.  That's better than three useless de-aggros.

[JudyJudy]

<P><EM>Awesome...</EM></P> <P><EM>Simply awesome.</EM></P>

[Mendaril]

<P>De Agro = Feign Death... why give us usless abilities :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>either way I'm very very happy to hear this change :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Zenith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mendaril wrote:<BR> <P>De Agro = Feign Death... why give us usless abilities :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>either way I'm very very happy to hear this change :smileyvery-happy:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Problem is with that concept, is you can't FD and get right back up. You have to FD for sometimes a minute to loose aggro. Least I do, if I FD and then get right back up once I'm down I just get all the aggro back.

[wesbarlow]

<DIV>nice start. it's small enough to quench the thirst but not too overpowered that people like me who like the constant fight to hold aggro still have our challenge</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good, now if they'd just replace the de-agro stance altogether and replace it with our single taunt, we'd be tanks again.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A lot of brawlers have been asking for a deaggro since release.  Considering its an optional achievement, which encourages differences in tank/dps builds, I don't see what the issue is.<BR>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good, now if they'd just replace the de-agro stance altogether and replace it with our single taunt, we'd be tanks again.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A lot of brawlers have been asking for a deaggro since release.  Considering its an optional achievement, which encourages differences in tank/dps builds, I don't see what the issue is.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We still have the weakest single taunts in the game though.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR>We still have the weakest single taunts in the game though.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>AFAIK the value of the single and ae taunt of all fighters is the same.  Its the additional ways to generate aggro where they differ.  Besides, brawlers have the best single target aggro by far, especially with dirge hate and an assassin.<BR>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV> Well yeah thats what I ment. Monk taunt is just that. A taunt. No interupt. No DoT. No stuns, no stifles, no direct damage or anything like that. Everyone else gets something extra to help them.</DIV>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good, now if they'd just replace the de-agro stance altogether and replace it with our single taunt, we'd be tanks again.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A lot of brawlers have been asking for a deaggro since release.  Considering its an optional achievement, which encourages differences in tank/dps builds, I don't see what the issue is.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>[Removed for Content] ...do you guys who tell us plate tanks that brawlers are tanks  ...see any "tank" class asking for deaggros ? ...just curious ..brawlers are tanks then they should not have de aggro skills .... brawlers are dps and not tanks they should get deaggros ..you cannot have the best of both worlds ...you dont see guards asking for deaggro skills no zerkers who out dps brawlers by a huge margin ....no do you see crusaders asking for deaggro skills ..you brawlers need to accept your not tanks ......and if that offends you and you tell me you are tanks ...then you explain to me why a tank class has got deaggro skills ....like a scout ..or a caster or a healer ...cos tanks <STRONG><U>DO NOT GET DEAGGROS</U></STRONG>.

[scalzo]

Great news the more aggro buffs the better. And yes I feel fighter classes should not get de-aggros. A fighter wants aggro! All fighters should be able to tank all mobs period. Brawler is not a scout class.<p>Message Edited by scalzo on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[selch]

<P>EasternKing, King of the Trolls:</P> <P>If you guys were not obssesive being the one & only MT, avoidance was not borked that much, and if you didnt try to nerf our tanking ability everytime something good happened to us, such as fricking KOS mitigation AA's, many brawlers would not go after DPS and go for tanking...</P> <P>I understand them to a point that since their ability to tank is borked during that period, they went for DPS side of this versatile class. Monks are fighters and should tank as good as any other fighter class regardless of armor type. </P> <P>I don't ever think if avoidance tanking was not THAT broken, noone would ask for a deaggro. I've never asked for deaggro and don't really like people who thinks monks are DPS. In the end, monks are build as fighters, deaggro is just an "AA", not main class defining just like "Rogues getting taunt"</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:11 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR>[Removed for Content] ...do you guys who tell us plate tanks that brawlers are tanks  ...see any "tank" class asking for deaggros ? ...just curious ..brawlers are tanks then they should not have de aggro skills .... brawlers are dps and not tanks they should get deaggros ..you cannot have the best of both worlds ...you dont see guards asking for deaggro skills no zerkers who out dps brawlers by a huge margin ....no do you see crusaders asking for deaggro skills ..you brawlers need to accept your not tanks ......and if that offends you and you tell me you are tanks ...then you explain to me why a tank class has got deaggro skills ....like a scout ..or a caster or a healer ...cos tanks <STRONG><U>DO NOT GET DEAGGROS</U></STRONG>.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Because brawlers can be hybrids that focus on one role more than the other in order to specialize, that is why.  I know its probably beyond your grasp, so maybe you should research hybrids a bit.<BR>

[Untalent]

It's too bad it seems that we can't tank any better.<div></div>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <P>EasternKing, King of the Trolls:</P> <P>If you guys were not obssesive being the one & only MT, avoidance was not borked that much, and if you didnt try to nerf our tanking ability everytime something good happened to us, such as fricking KOS mitigation AA's, many brawlers would not go after DPS and go for tanking...</P> <P>I understand them to a point that since their ability to tank is borked during that period, they went for DPS side of this versatile class. Monks are fighters and should tank as good as any other fighter class regardless of armor type. </P> <P>I don't ever think if avoidance tanking was not THAT broken, noone would ask for a deaggro. I've never asked for deaggro and don't really like people who thinks monks are DPS. In the end, monks are build as fighters, deaggro is just an "AA", not main class defining just like "Rogues getting taunt"</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:11 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>so selch because i pointed out quite correctly that tanks get aggro aggro and some more aggro ..the only class that get deaggros are in fact NON tanks im the king of the trolls .... hypocrites all of you </P> <P>guards asked for more dps ...they got it ...then the crying started ...your TANKS not dps class you shouldnt be doing dps ..well i happen to agree with you guards and zerkers should not be pumping out anywhere near the dps they can and notice i say "CAN"  do because you have to be near enough full mastered and geared to high heaven and back and then buffed to unholy amounts to produce the kinda dps that gets everyone screaming nerf warriors </P> <P>i really FAIL to see what deaggro skills have to do with a fighter class ....im all for monks being viable tanks ..you show me once where i said i dont think monks should be able to tank ....my issues are its always guards that are the example class ..when zerkers are in fact the ones brawlers should be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about </P> <P>make avoidence tanking work its fine with me ...but they need to balance things again across the board ..or things will not work.</P> <P>monks if they are tanks do not need a deaggro line end of story ..and as for rogues getting a tanking line .....i think it was a stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idea BIG time stupid </P> <P>i got a briggy raid geared ..if i tank spec him and stick him in an MT group hes sat at 12.5k hps 6.2k mit and 63% avoid ..... a scout i mean for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s sake thats better than most tanks, single target taunt group taunts reactive 50% on being hit hate generator ....what a joke.</P> <P>and wanna know the best thinkg ...the scouts single target taunts generates more hate than all fighters single target ...and if they spend 8ranks in the group taunt ,,it generates more hate than a M2 fighter taunt ..so dont hold up tanking scouts as why its good brawlers get deaggros , cos tanking scouts was a big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing mistake.</P>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR>[Removed for Content] ...do you guys who tell us plate tanks that brawlers are tanks  ...see any "tank" class asking for deaggros ? ...just curious ..brawlers are tanks then they should not have de aggro skills .... brawlers are dps and not tanks they should get deaggros ..you cannot have the best of both worlds ...you dont see guards asking for deaggro skills no zerkers who out dps brawlers by a huge margin ....no do you see crusaders asking for deaggro skills ..you brawlers need to accept your not tanks ......and if that offends you and you tell me you are tanks ...then you explain to me why a tank class has got deaggro skills ....like a scout ..or a caster or a healer ...cos tanks <STRONG><U>DO NOT GET DEAGGROS</U></STRONG>.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Because brawlers can be hybrids that focus on one role more than the other in order to specialize, that is why.  I know its probably beyond your grasp, so maybe you should research hybrids a bit.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ahh gaige ..beyond my grasp you say ..how many times yourself have you told me and other guards that there are NO hybrid class's  in eq2 and that brawlers are not dps class's they are in fact tanks ..and yet here you are in fact now defending the opposite side of the coin ..how typical of you.

[JudyJudy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR>[Removed for Content] ...do you guys who tell us plate tanks that brawlers are tanks  ...see any "tank" class asking for deaggros ? ...just curious ..brawlers are tanks then they should not have de aggro skills .... brawlers are dps and not tanks they should get deaggros ..you cannot have the best of both worlds ...you dont see guards asking for deaggro skills no zerkers who out dps brawlers by a huge margin ....no do you see crusaders asking for deaggro skills ..you brawlers need to accept your not tanks ......and if that offends you and you tell me you are tanks ...then you explain to me why a tank class has got deaggro skills ....like a scout ..or a caster or a healer ...cos tanks <STRONG><U>DO NOT GET DEAGGROS</U></STRONG>.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>The same arguement can be made by comparing our agro generating ablities and tanking CA's - especially the new skills that will be available for tanking monks at EoF's release.</EM></P> <P><EM>C'mon man.  Really.  You're reaching here.</EM><BR></P>

[EasternKing]

<P>then argue with them, tell them your tanks ..and tell them you want more aoe aggro generation abilitys not deaggros</P> <P>you dont think this is a step by sony to shunt you off into a corner ? next expansion or lvl cap increase will probably see brawlers get even more degrro abilitys and before you all know it there will be 4 tank class and brawlers will be in some limbo between scouts and tanks ..yeah i know you all feel like that anyways , but if it carrys on youll be there for real and it will be your own faults ...because soe will turn round and say well we gave you what you asked for ..Deaggros well tanks dont get deggros dps does sorry be careful what you ask for next time ..have a nice soe day.</P>

[Maiyamoto]

<DIV>The all or nothing logic never ceases to amaze.  it's down right obvious when you ONLY have a plate tank in a group. they are the MT choice.  same can be said with a brawler.  it instances like these that agro generation is need.  But what happens when two fighter classes are in the same group?  it just becomes a ping pong contest to see who can keep agro the longest?  That can be counter productive, now the healer has to focus on keeping 2 people up because they can't comprimise and help one maintain agro while the other deagro's.  Or did this concept not even enter the mind?  Can it be that the short sightedness has become so acute that people can't see beyond black and white?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i swear... it's like Furor all over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everquest 2 has monks and bruisers as FIGHTERS.  That is our archtype.  We share that archtype with Guardians, Beserksers. and the knights.  no matter how you look at it. we are all FIGHTERS,  Until they up and place brawlers in with scouts, can the claim of "Brawlers are pure dps" even be a viable arguement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plain and simple there are TOO MANY INSTANCES when a brawler might not want to have agro.  its in those instances (Usually in an environment where a much more suitable fighter IS the MT) that having deagro's would be an important option. It's not black and white. There is a gray area there.  And it's in that grey area that brawlers fall. We are the lowest of the totem pole among tanks.  but we have superior DPS to help make up that ranking.  I tank alot of content just fine. I havn't done any raid tanking, But you know what?  My personal preference. I wouldn't want to be Raid MT. that's why i've never played a plate tank in the long time i've played both Everquest and Everquest 2.  Some out there that do want to be MT's, and IMO there should be AA that help them achieve that goal.  Because in the end.  Brawlers are still fighters.  The reason we can get deagro abilites... Is like i said,  not every situation do we want to have agro. The failure to see outside of the box astounds me.  Eastern King.. you really are the new Furor...For that.. I greatly pity you.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Maiyamoto on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:02 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Maiyamoto on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:03 AM</span>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P>then argue with them, tell them your tanks ..and tell them you want more aoe aggro generation abilitys not deaggros</P> <P>you dont think this is a step by sony to shunt you off into a corner ? next expansion or lvl cap increase will probably see brawlers get even more degrro abilitys and before you all know it there will be 4 tank class and brawlers will be in some limbo between scouts and tanks ..yeah i know you all feel like that anyways , but if it carrys on youll be there for real and it will be your own faults ...because soe will turn round and say well we gave you what you asked for ..Deaggros well tanks dont get deggros dps does sorry be careful what you ask for next time ..have a nice soe day.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There are many who are pitching a fit over this.  In fact, this thread that you waltzed into was posted to notify us that one of the de-aggros had been changed to a hate gain - ie, due to our complaining we had a 'dps' ability' switched to a tanking ability.  If the mob rebalance fixes the issue with mobs having ridiculous to hit bonuses as advertised, you'll see monks tanking at every level just like they were able to from launch to the release of kos (where the to-hit bonus mobs were introduced to make up for plate tanks being able to get high avoidance).  The thing that baffles me is that people forget that we were purely tanks for the majority of the lifespan of this game, and only due to a recent (and dev acknowledged) flaw in design, has our ability to tank all content been hindered.  The combination of sony taking their time to address the issue and people having ultra-short memory spans has led to this ridiculous 'monks are dps' debate.  Any fighter can be made to do good dps - period.  You could respec and regear your guard to do decent dps if you so wished.  Likewise, so have many in the monk community.  If that is the way they want to play, fine.  There are still plenty of us who signed on for the role of tank and want it restored.  You need to grow up with your absolutism - while some asked for deaggro ability, many have not.  In fact, most have done the opposite and decried the addition of deaggro abilities.  No class communtiy on the boards has  a unified vision or unified voice.  Our kos AAs also have our area taunt boosted, tsunami's reuse timer reduced, our primary mitigation buff both boosted and given a reduced casting timer, our heal boosted, and our self-cure made so that it cures any state.  Golly-gee willickers, those sound like tanking abilities to me!

[Synio]

A question that is related to the thread, How is monk tanking looking now? I had made one to be the MT for my small guild group but found they were no where near as good as plate tanks and so Made a guardian, I really like monks however and would likely switch back to a monk if it were a viable tanking option. <div></div>

[Shankonia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote: <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P>i really FAIL to see what deaggro skills have to do with a fighter class ....im all for monks being viable tanks</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Monks only need deaggro's when in a group for DPS and a bad tank.  This usually happens when the non brawler tank is tanking, because they don't see the brawler as being a tank.</P> <P> </P>

[Jobeson]

<div></div><div></div>It really needs to be on a toggle for best use.  Both for putting it on another fighter to up their overall avoidance and for training.   When FDing it links your agro to the other person and ruins the 1%  or so avoidance increase for training.  It also causes the possiblity for exploitation in pulling to send agro directly to the tank by an attack and FD (20 meter max) as well as simple greifing.  Please fix  the feedback agro or set it to toggle to be even more useful.   The description also sounds like it gives the target my agro on the buff itself not on the AA pickup but when reading the buff that could be clarified for certainty for the targets who think we are giving them our agro.  Though amusing for us it could still be stated better for their sake.I love the mini-amends idea myself.  Ive always had a hard time AE agroing and this just seems like the perfect fix.   By the way Lostcause from tox is now back... <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jobeson on <span class=date_text>11-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good, now if they'd just replace the de-agro stance altogether and replace it with our single taunt, we'd be tanks again.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A lot of brawlers have been asking for a deaggro since release.  Considering its an optional achievement, which encourages differences in tank/dps builds, I don't see what the issue is.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>[Removed for Content] ...do you guys who tell us plate tanks that brawlers are tanks  ...see any "tank" class asking for deaggros ? ...just curious ..brawlers are tanks then they should not have de aggro skills .... brawlers are dps and not tanks they should get deaggros ..you cannot have the best of both worlds ...you dont see guards asking for deaggro skills no zerkers who out dps brawlers by a huge margin ....no do you see crusaders asking for deaggro skills ..you brawlers need to accept your not tanks ......and if that offends you and you tell me you are tanks ...then you explain to me why a tank class has got deaggro skills ....like a scout ..or a caster or a healer ...cos tanks <STRONG><U>DO NOT GET DEAGGROS</U></STRONG>.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I see Sk asking for deagro everyime they cast deathmarch. I see them in raids asking the coercer for the deagro.<BR><BR></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>i really FAIL to see what deaggro skills have to do with a fighter class ....im all for monks being viable tanks</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And seriously bud don't start throwing this hypocritical horsedung now. You had pages of threads saying brawlers are dps and should not tank. When did you jump the boat?</P> <P>Yea i ddin't want the deagros, but people did. And as far as i see SoE is pushing us into more of a DPS role. Look at the new fabled set for bruisers. Its nice no doubt +60 to drop kick, 8% to offensive stance proc, 9% double atk. But seriously that set encourages us to be offensive, not a tank. I am sure many brawlers will be estatic, because its great for raiding and DPS. I just know in 2 months when brawlers are throwing up scout DPS numbers again. The flaming will continue, becuase brawlers are fighters. Try as we migth we will never be accepted as a viable raid tank nor will we ever be accepted as a true t1-t2 dps. I just want to sit in that limbo area where i can tank epics and i can put out t2 dps and maybe have 1-2 skills to help the raid out in thier goal. Liek a useful offensive buff and defensive buff.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-19-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:59 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:59 AM</span>

[Karamonde]

Anyway currently Brawlers are not anymore in the Fighte rArchetype <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Try the create char new interface, we are stand alone as the Paladin SK [hybrides] Are, witch is a good thing : )<div></div>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karamonde wrote:<BR>Anyway currently Brawlers are not anymore in the Fighte rArchetype <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Try the create char new interface, we are stand alone as the Paladin SK [hybrides] Are, witch is a good thing : )<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because it is alphabetic order. We are fighters still, sorry to give you bad news. You can select a scout class if you like.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>11-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 AM</span>

[Cirth_Beer]

we're not fighters we're "things" :p<div></div>

[psubull]

we're the ultimate hybrid.  Give us power from all stats!<div></div>