EoF Monk Changes

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>This thread is meant for difference changes between monks and bruisers. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Ive looked over the bruiser and monk AA lines. I see 5 bruiser dmg CA's that are getting AA boosts, but only 1 monk dmg CA. I see 1 AA that will give a small mit boost to Spirit Like Mountain, but that's it as far as mit goes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>There are also combat changes and avoidance changes, but they arent class specific, so Im setting those aside. I realize the haste cap is going up, but according to my calcs, will make a negligable dps increase for monks, about 2-3%.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>I would like to leave the Gods out of this discussion, even though it's clear Rallos Zek is pretty awesome.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>What Im most interested in is changes to the monk and bruiser classes themselves, not universal/AA/Gods stuff, just the CA lines. Any information would be helpful. Thank you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[scalzo]

Well with deaggro stance I will guess we are DPS now. Throw us in with the scouts.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<u>Damage</u>Monks get a damage increase to Kick, Thrust Kick, and Swooping Dragon. You get casting/recovery time reduction of Forward Strike, Mantis Jabs and Silent Palm. Lastly you get cost reduction on Cold Fist, Power Strike, and Winter's Talon. You also get an additional attack that cannot miss or cost any power that is used after another attack (recast 60s).Bruisers get damage increase to Stamp, Shoulder Charge, Haymaker, Sucker Punch and Knockout Combination. No extra attacks.It seems to me that Bruisers get a small boost to damage, while Monks get a smaller boost to damage, but then also has the option to have faster casting arts, and even better, lower power/health cost abilities. As well as an extra attack.Fairly equal if you ask me, and that's ignoring the obviously lesser abilities like range increase on Circle Cobra and Dragonbreath, or Bruiser's minor Knockout duration increase.As for things other than damage...<u>Offtanking/Dethreat</u>Monks get a detaunt proc, evade, and a minor hate transfer (just don't use it on the pally). Bruisers get the detaunt proc and evade, and a reduction in reuse timer on <i>all three </i>intercepting skills.Bruisers also get up to a 10% increase to health when using the intercept, however it requires having maxed out every single one of the intercept abilities. Remember, these are all on the same timer, so it's basically wasting 10 points for ZERO gain, let alone the rather low benefit of a few seconds shaved off the reuse timer.<u>Defensive</u>Both get an increase to the Heal ability.Monks get the ability to reuse their Cure faster, and cure divine, magic, and all physical ailments. Monks get a mitigation increase to their "rooted/power drain" Mitigation, and added spell resistance to their "stunned" mitigation. Monks get a reuse reduction on their magic ward and Tsunami, and lastly an extra 100% dodge ability for "oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" situations.Bruisers get reduction in reuse for their mental immunity, magic absord, and cure. They get a mitigation increase to their "stunned" mitigation buff, and a duration increase on their "health drain" mitigation. Lastly, they get a new ability to have <b>a chance</b> to proc stoneskin for one hit on a riposte. This means there's only a chance per riposte... and if you don't riposte, you won't ever proc. Ive yet to see this to proc actually, although I can't get my parry up as high with the gear I've been testing it with.Oh, and you know that 1300 mitigation for health buff? It's been reduced to ~720 at master 1. The Monk one remains over 400 or so, and you now have an AA that can increase that.AggroMonks get an increase to hate on their group taunt.Bruisers get a reduction in reuse timer on their single target and group taunt. Also, an increase to threat position on Rescue... just in case there's more than 2 folks ahead of him on the threat list when he loses aggro.<u>Others</u>Monks get an increase to sprint speed (65%) and reduction in cost (so takes only 11.25% initial, and 7.5% per tic). So basically a 70% sprint speed with the Brawler AA, and sprint for longer. You might actually be able to outrun things.Bruisers get a reduction in reuse on Feign Death. Might save a life quicker on fails.Honestly, it looks about equal to me. Maybe I'm giving more value than I should to the reduction in power/health cost on some of those damage abilities, but even taking them out you are only behind by one ability. Monks get 3 attacks increased in damage and get an <i>additional</i> attack. Depending on how much damage that attack can do at the higher levels and with higher strength, it could be worth as much as two abilities. And it doesn't cost anything, nor can it miss.Both don't have stellar defensive or offtanking abilities.. both get exactly the same detaunts... both get mediocre defensive abilities. Aggro control I'd almost venture to say is in favor for the Monk, as you don't have to change anything and you are better... Bruisers end up having to cast their taunts more often to get their added benefit (so over time benefit), which costs more power comparitively. Both aren't enough to make us competitors in aggro control over the other tanks.<div></div>

[Coccinea_Maga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<u>Damage</u>Monks get a damage increase to Kick, Thrust Kick, and Swooping Dragon. You get casting/recovery time reduction of Forward Strike, Mantis Jabs and Silent Palm. Lastly you get cost reduction on Cold Fist, Power Strike, and Winter's Talon. <font color="#ff0000">You also get an additional attack that cannot miss or cost any power that is used after another attack (recast 60s).</font><blockquote><font color="#6666ff">The skill you are talking about, Combination, has a VERY short window of opportunity to use it.  I had it lined up on my hotbar so I could hit punch (5), kick (6), jab (7), Combination (<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I would still miss being able to use it.</font></blockquote>Bruisers get damage increase to Stamp, Shoulder Charge, Haymaker, Sucker Punch and Knockout Combination. No extra attacks.It seems to me that Bruisers get a small boost to damage, while Monks get a smaller boost to damage, but then also has the option to have faster casting arts, and even better, lower power/health cost abilities. As well as an extra attack.Fairly equal if you ask me, and that's ignoring the obviously lesser abilities like <font color="#ff0000">range increase on Circle Cobra and Dragonbreath,</font> or Bruiser's minor Knockout duration increase.<blockquote><font color="#6666ff">These are out of encounter AEs -- Increasing the range of them make them highly situational (more than they'd been.)  Try casting one of those in a packed dungeons like SoS and see how many adds you end up bringing to your group, if you aren't careful.</font></blockquote>As for things other than damage...<u>Offtanking/Dethreat</u><font color="#ff0000">Monks get a detaunt proc, evade, and a minor hate transfer (just don't use it on the pally). Bruisers get the detaunt proc and evade, and a reduction in reuse timer on </font><font color="#ff0000"><i>all three </i></font><font color="#ff0000">intercepting skills.</font><blockquote><font color="#6666ff">Great for the DPS monk, but at least half of the community wants to be TANKS.  We want to fill our archetype role.  We don't want to be subpar DPS, we don't want to be the side class that people use to name farm, we want to be able to hold our own in any epic fight we come across.  Transfers and dehates aren't going to help us do this.</font></blockquote>Bruisers also get up to a 10% increase to health when using the intercept, however it requires having maxed out every single one of the intercept abilities. Remember, these are all on the same timer, so it's basically wasting 10 points for ZERO gain, let alone the rather low benefit of a few seconds shaved off the reuse timer.<u>Defensive</u>Both get an increase to the Heal ability.Monks get the ability to reuse their Cure faster, and cure divine, magic, and all physical ailments. Monks get a mitigation increase to their "rooted/power drain" Mitigation, and added spell resistance to their "stunned" mitigation. Monks get a reuse reduction on their magic ward and Tsunami, and lastly an extra 100% dodge ability for "oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" situations.Bruisers get reduction in reuse for their mental immunity, magic absord, and cure. They get a mitigation increase to their "stunned" mitigation buff, and a duration increase on their "health drain" mitigation. Lastly, they get a new ability to have <b>a chance</b> to proc stoneskin for one hit on a riposte. This means there's only a chance per riposte... and if you don't riposte, you won't ever proc. Ive yet to see this to proc actually, although I can't get my parry up as high with the gear I've been testing it with.<font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Oh, and you know that 1300 mitigation for health buff? It's been reduced to ~720 at master 1. The Monk one remains over 400 or so, and you now have an AA that can increase that.</font><blockquote><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#6666ff">Monks have no mitigation for health buff.  We only have our "root/power drain" and "stun" emergency skills, which brusiers get as well.</font></font></blockquote>AggroMonks get an increase to hate on their group taunt.Bruisers get a reduction in reuse timer on their single target and group taunt. Also, an increase to threat position on Rescue... just in case there's more than 2 folks ahead of him on the threat list when he loses aggro.<u>Others</u><font color="#ff0000">Monks get an increase to sprint speed (65%) and reduction in cost (so takes only 11.25% initial, and 7.5% per tic). So basically a 70% sprint speed with the Brawler AA, and sprint for longer. You might actually be able to outrun things.</font><blockquote><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#6666ff">Not exactly sure how you came up with your numbers but there is only a 25% power cost reduction for the initial cost.  There is not reduction on the cost per tick; It still takes 10% of your power while you are moving.  Besides ... who tries to outrun things.  That is what feign death is for.</font></font></blockquote>Bruisers get a reduction in reuse on Feign Death. Might save a life quicker on fails.Honestly, it looks about equal to me. Maybe I'm giving more value than I should to the reduction in power/health cost on some of those damage abilities, but even taking them out you are only behind by one ability. Monks get 3 attacks increased in damage and get an <i>additional</i> attack. Depending on how much damage that attack can do at the higher levels and with higher strength, it could be worth as much as two abilities. And it doesn't cost anything, nor can it miss.Both don't have stellar defensive or offtanking abilities.. both get exactly the same detaunts... both get mediocre defensive abilities. Aggro control I'd almost venture to say is in favor for the Monk, as you don't have to change anything and you are better... Bruisers end up having to cast their taunts more often to get their added benefit (so over time benefit), which costs more power comparitively. Both aren't enough to make us competitors in aggro control over the other tanks.<div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[scalzo]

I was wondering if any monks in beta have tried to raid tank yet with the combat changes? If so I think we would all love to hear your opinion on this.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Coccinea_Maga,<font color="#6666ff">The skill you are talking about, Combination, has a VERY short window of opportunity to use it.  I had it lined up on my hotbar so I could hit punch (5), kick (6), jab (7), Combination (<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I would still miss being able to use it.</font>You've queued up Combo after a punch, kick, or jab and still haven't been able to land it? /Bug and /Feedback. If you aren't missing with the first hit, then you should be able to use the ability especially if it's right after.<font color="#6666ff">These are out of encounter AEs -- Increasing the range of them make them highly situational (more than they'd been.)  Try casting one of those in a packed dungeons like SoS and see how many adds you end up bringing to your group, if you aren't careful.</font>I direct you to where I said I was IGNORING those useless abilities increases.<font color="#6666ff">Great for the DPS monk, but at least half of the community wants to be TANKS.  We want to fill our archetype role.  We don't want to be subpar DPS, we don't want to be the side class that people use to name farm, we want to be able to hold our own in any epic fight we come across.  Transfers and dehates aren't going to help us do this.</font>Completely off-topic. We are talking about the differences between the Monk and Bruiser AA's. Not if they are worth having. BOTH brawlers are in the same boat here... so I fail to see your point of contention when taken in context of the thread.You may want to direct your dislike of the AAs in general towards the thread that talks about them in general?<font color="#ff0000"><font color="#6666ff">Monks have no mitigation for health buff.  We only have our "root/power drain" and "stun" emergency skills, which brusiers get as well.</font></font>Get your facts straight. Bruisers DON'T have a "root/power drain" emergency skill. Our version of it IS the health drain one. Which has been reduced by 50%. My point is valid.<font color="#ff0000"><font color="#6666ff">Not exactly sure how you came up with your numbers but there is only a 25% power cost reduction for the initial cost.  There is not reduction on the cost per tick; It still takes 10% of your power while you are moving.  Besides ... who tries to outrun things.  That is what feign death is for.</font></font>Hmm.. I was going by the old power cost info where it listed it in the actual cost section. I guess that now it's changed to the effect side, it can't be decreased by this? Doesn't sprint still hurt when a Coercer puts that "damage per power point" thing on you tho? Regardless, the increased sprint speed is more important here.Many raids I've been on call for a monk to pull named to an appropriate spot. Sprinting might help, so cost being down and a large increase could help. Plus, it helps getting through zones much faster... I sprint as far as I can normally and THEN FD... 25% increase alone would mean being able to get MUCH further per drop, and outrunning autoattack a lot easier. Thinking of SoS here.It's at <i>least</i> as good as a little 2.5s reduction in reuse of FD. Neither are huge, but it's not like Monks are at some massive disadvantage between these abilities.<font color="#6666ff"></font><div></div>

[selch]

<DIV>Is it me or are we the only class that gets achievement to an ability to all non-monk classes have "Sprint" ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think they could not find enough ability to give achievement <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make it Group FD, reduce 1 minute per rank, 10 minutes Group FD at least.</DIV>

[jrolla777]

guess the Sprint achievement  is so we can kite ie. solo better, and to make us better raid pullers? great. <span>:smileysad:</span>I have to say, i dont like Martial order turning completely into a non tanking spell. i'f im the only fighter in a group, im screwed, say good bye to that extra deflection. that 'enhancement' should give us another version of the spell, i see no reason to change its use like this.<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>The change is to make it an offtanking buff. If you are planning on being a tank, don't put points into that AA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for sprint.. I'd almost rather have the sprint bonus over the SELF FD bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, an improvement to GROUP FD would have been a nicer bonus.</DIV>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is it me or are we the only class that gets achievement to an ability to all non-monk classes have "Sprint" ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think they could not find enough ability to give achievement <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make it Group FD, reduce 1 minute per rank, 10 minutes Group FD at least.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ranger: Survival line - first skill being Enhance Sprint, same % per point as monk I belive.</DIV> <DIV>Assassain: Murdering line - first skill Enhance Sprint, also same % afaik.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying its an 'acceptable' AA skill, but its not a unique one for monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iseabeil wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Ranger:</FONT> Survival line - first skill being Enhance Sprint, same % per point as monk I belive.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Assassain:</FONT> Murdering line - first skill Enhance Sprint, also same % afaik.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying its an 'acceptable' AA skill, but its not a unique one for monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That gave me a little chuckle <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> they confused archetypes I guess <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Siberia2]

<div></div>First off, both characters I am about to mention are NOT beta buffed, they are home grown from live. As a 70 Monk on beta, full AAs and high(er) end T7 gear, I can honestly say that I was able to main and offtank orange x2 named mobs in castle mistmoore with little problems. I was avoiding as if the mob was yellow (6/10 avoids) and rarely did it spike(1.5k - 2.5k Hits, 4k CAs). I was sitting around ~55% Mit and ~65 Avoidance. Definatly a change. Coincidentally, I also have a well T7 geared Bruiser on beta, who sits at relativly higher mit (~2%) and higher avoidance (~2%). I personally feel more comfortable on a bruiser then a monk, which is where my bias lies. I have yet to test out the epic tanking, but as far as tanking anything heroic goes, it's a walk in the park - for both characters. As far as damage is concerned, my monk sits at 141 haste and 20 DPS with Augs and Self buffs. With an auged Greater TC and auged scepter of destruction, he is a machine gun, spam of orange. Haste equates to roughly 113% curved. Damage on average in every heroic instance I was in was base 1100 DPS, the highest I hit was around 1800. Fights were fast. My bruiser sits around 40 haste and 44 DPS, double the DPS but a third of the haste of the Monk. With an auged Hand of Destruction and auged bonetooth skewer, the weapons are extremely similiar. The damage was comparable between the two in the heroic instances, although the bruiser had a lot more room for haste and thus would benefit a lot more from it than the monk would in a raid situation. Now, on to AAs: Both characters have 100 AAs(50 KoS/50 EoF). The monk's AAs are scattered, unorganized, and generally enhance things which are only needed to reach the tier below it. Opposite of this the bruiser's AAs are linear, extremely easy to decide upon, and are in my opinion of better quality. This could of course be because of organization. I can tell you that I wish my bruiser could enhance the cure line to cure every state in the game like monks, or up the mitigation of a buff(In this case mountain line VS spirit line). This is also a double edged sword, because as a bruiser the paths are so precise that I have little choice beyond each path. I can't be an offtank AND DPS, I con only be a mix of both, which puts me back at square one. On the other hand, I am not going to attempt to hide the fact that bruisers have some very nice AAs. On beta I have a full DPS spec, and I like it quite the bit. It's not overpowered in the least, mostly because the most it will add to my CAs is 200~ damage. I get 3 points to rescue which I think would be better suited in the monk tree, evade which monks get, deaggro stance which monks get, and that's pretty much it. Monk's AAs have potential - lots of it. The only problem is organization, amounts, and negatives. The recast reducers should be damage %, the dodge endline shouldn't Daze/Stifle(And if that's overpowered, then double the recast), and the lines should become more organized and linear. One line for tanking, utility and DPS. Mix and match as you want, with the realization that you can't master more than one line. If you want to DPS, take that line. If you want to MT, take that line. In the end you can do one or the other, or be mediocre at both. As far as Gods go, Rallos only has one really cool ability that I ever use, and it gives a 100% crit chance with 20% double attack. Marr has some cool tanking abilities, and if you just want to mess around Sol Ro has a nuke that I've seen hit for 22k on an epic mob. In the end, it's all really fluff, a one time per zone impressive parse, if you can stay alive through it. In the end I know what I suggested kills diversity, but I assume we are talking from a basic balance standpoint. It's also 3 A.M. and my mind is fried from lack of sleep. Oh, and in case anyone's curious, I play the bruiser on live, and will continue to play him after release - don't believe the signature(If it even shows up). <div></div><p>Message Edited by Siberia275 on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 AM</span>

[Aliele]

<DIV>"they confused archetypes I guess"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  I'm not 100% sure but did  they not  get rid of the archtype? So as not to just have a fighter tree, scout tree ect ect. and we each have a class.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aliele on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:48 AM</span>

[Snapdragyn]

<P>They may not have an archetype 'tree', but they certainly have archetypal roles. We came into the game under the fighter role, not the scout role.</P> <P>(And btw, if you think the archetype concept is truly dead, start a scout of any class and play to 10, then rinse & repeat with another scout class -- same icons for main attack CAs, same effects, only differing in the damage type. They do diversify as levels gain, but at least for scouts the playstyle is really identical through level 10 -- right when they'd switch from archetype to class under the old system.)</P>

[Morrolan V]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Siberia275 wrote:<BR> . . .<BR>As far as damage is concerned, my monk sits at 141 haste and 20 DPS with Augs and Self buffs. With an auged Greater TC and auged scepter of destruction, he is a machine gun, spam of orange. Haste equates to roughly 113% curved. Damage on average in every heroic instance I was in was base 1100 DPS, the highest I hit was around 1800. Fights were fast.<BR><BR>My bruiser sits around 40 haste and 44 DPS, double the DPS but a third of the haste of the Monk. With an auged Hand of Destruction and auged bonetooth skewer, the weapons are extremely similiar. The damage was comparable between the two in the heroic instances, <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM>although the bruiser had a lot more room for haste and thus would benefit a lot more from it than the monk would in a raid situation</EM></STRONG>.<BR><BR></FONT>. . . .<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Siberia275 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:08 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The red part is key.  It's something that has been bothering me for a bit.  Bruisers self buff DPS, and can then take advantage of a large number of items that give haste.  Are there any items in the game that give a self DPS buff?<BR></P>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morrolan V wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Siberia275 wrote:<BR> . . .<BR>As far as damage is concerned, my monk sits at 141 haste and 20 DPS with Augs and Self buffs. With an auged Greater TC and auged scepter of destruction, he is a machine gun, spam of orange. Haste equates to roughly 113% curved. Damage on average in every heroic instance I was in was base 1100 DPS, the highest I hit was around 1800. Fights were fast.<BR><BR>My bruiser sits around 40 haste and 44 DPS, double the DPS but a third of the haste of the Monk. With an auged Hand of Destruction and auged bonetooth skewer, the weapons are extremely similiar. The damage was comparable between the two in the heroic instances, <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM>although the bruiser had a lot more room for haste and thus would benefit a lot more from it than the monk would in a raid situation</EM></STRONG>.<BR><BR></FONT>. . . .<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Siberia275 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:08 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The red part is key.  It's something that has been bothering me for a bit.  Bruisers self buff DPS, and can then take advantage of a large number of items that give haste.  Are there any items in the game that give a self DPS buff?<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Only the crappy necklace that gives a whopping 7% dps and no stats or resists.  You'd have to be high to wear it instead of your mark or another piece of good loot.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>As I understand it, there's adornments that will give +DPS.</P> <P>Oh, and it's a score now, not a +%... since it can go over 100.</P>

[Bladewind]

I'm pretty excited about adornments - will lets us specialize quite a bit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Untalent]

So with all of the talk going around.... it seems as if we won't really be any better tanks then before. Bummer<div></div>