Change the monk hate stance!

[Mendaril]

<DIV>Monk have only 2 taunts. One single and one group then we have the Dragon stances that allow us to build hate on one guy that we are hitting.  This is ok if you are only tanking one or two at a time but how many times are we tanking and have to deal with groups of 3 or more.  It's not enough.  Refresh timers are too slow to deal with it.  I have an idea for the monk's dragon stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change gain hate on 50% of hits to gain hate when you are missed.  We are avoidance tanks.  Give us an avoidance hate building stance.  I don't know about you but when you swing and miss on a mob through the whole fight wouldn't you get mad?  Shouldn't it be the same for mobs that swing and miss a monk?  This would greatly help monk tank and keep aggro.  Please let me know your thoughts on this!</DIV>

[JudyJudy]

<DIV><EM>In my opinion, I like things how they are concerning our agro potential.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>We know that our weakest ability is AoE agro - PARTICULARLY cross group Agro.  However, we do have the ablity to hold agro sufficiently with the tools we have.  Is it harder?  Absolutely.  Does it take more work?  Sure.  However, we do have the tools to get the job done.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>What I do (and you may want to try this as well) when "tank training" is head to an easy hunting ground like SoS or PoA, group with a couple guildies then have them cross-pull multiple group mobs - this helps me attain a higher awareness of mob pathing, allows me to experiment with different taunting tactics and gives me the challenge of targetting mobs that are cross-grouped.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Once you get comfortable with your tanking style and agro ability you can take it up a notch by heading to more difficult zones or simply tanking yellows in your defensive stance with your spoon - which will decrease your dps, thus affecting your ability to hold agro.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Challenge yourself and practice.  That's my advice.</EM></DIV>

[Mendaril]

no need to talk to me like I'm a newb... all I was saying is there could be a better way than what we have now.  I do tank and I tank often.  IMO I'm pretty good at it as well.  It's just an observation that there could be a way to help our lack of taunts. 

[JudyJudy]

<P><EM>I was just merely giving my opinion, as you stated yours.</EM></P> <P><EM>Respecting your opinion as I did - my intent was not to make you feel noobish - but to maybe give you a different perspective on how to handle this problem.</EM></P> <P><EM>Apparently I failed.</EM></P> <P><EM>Who knows?  Maybe with the oncoming of EoF, we'll get an AA that increases our agro potential.  Until the NDA is lifted, I fear we'll just have to wait.</EM></P>

[Mendaril]

<P>I agree with the AA thought... I would greatly love to see what our choices will be... a hate line would be nice as most of my time is spent tanking...</P> <P>I always welcome opinions as to how I do things and how I can change... I'm sorry if I seemed a bit short on yours I meant no offense but it did seem as though you were trying to make me feel belittled... I do thank you for your response to my post friend...</P>

[AndrewSquared]

<blockquote><hr>Mendaril wrote:<div>Monk have only 2 taunts. One single and one group then we have the Dragon stances that allow us to build hate on one guy that we are hitting.  This is ok if you are only tanking one or two at a time but how many times are we tanking and have to deal with groups of 3 or more.  It's not enough.  Refresh timers are too slow to deal with it.  I have an idea for the monk's dragon stance.</div> <div> </div> <div>Change gain hate on 50% of hits to gain hate when you are missed.  We are avoidance tanks.  Give us an avoidance hate building stance.  I don't know about you but when you swing and miss on a mob through the whole fight wouldn't you get mad?  Shouldn't it be the same for mobs that swing and miss a monk?  This would greatly help monk tank and keep aggro.  Please let me know your thoughts on this!</div><hr></blockquote>Personally, I really dig this idea, it's an inverse of sorts of what Shadowknights have for their main agro boost. They have a permanent damage shield that builds hate for them every time they GET hit. So once a SK has gotten agro on him, and let the mobs wail away for a couple seconds, he can VERY reliably hold agro. So the basic tools for this type of skill are in place already, as well as the precident. The only question for me is whether it SHOULD be done. From the concept of the game, I was under the impression that in tanking ability it should go like this: Guardian>Paladin>Berzerker>Monk>Shadowknight>Bruiser where as damage went like this Bruiser>Shadowknight>Monk>Berzker>Paladin>Guardian Obviously, just the inverse. Now, with the evolution of the game that has changed quite a bit, to be a bit more like this (I think) Tanking: Guardian>Berzker=Paladin>Shadowknight=Bruiser>Monk Damage: Bruiser=Monk>Berzerker>Paladin>Shadowknight>Guardian At least that's what my experience was running two toons up to 70. Of course, there were ebbs and flows, and situations where one class outshoan (sp?) another, but this was a <i>general</i> rule of thumb with maybe a slight edge in favor of one over the other within the similar brackets. Now, if SoE intends to adhere to these type of Damage/Tanking flow charts, they need to revamp skills, or classes, or whatever to put them more into line of what they feel they should be in. Personally, I don't want to tank. I want to be a crazy damage, safe falling, pulling, nutty wood-elf monk. I played a paladin to 52, then betrayed him to an SK, I did my share of tanking, and don't really want that responsibility in the game anymore, if I can avoid it. So in summary, while I LOVE the idea of the avoidance hate gain, I'm not sure if I PERSONALLY want it, and would rather wait to see where exactly SoE wants to place monks on the scale of tanking/damage. Oalu, Monk<div></div>

[Kelson]

<P>I think it's a great idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Good RP value and it makes sense.</P> <P>Not that we don't have enough tools to hold aggro, but everyone knows it's not nearly as easy for us as it is for some other tank classes on group pulls.</P> <P>To be honest, I don't mind the challenge of how it is now.  But nothing wrong with making it a bit easier to hold group aggro, either.</P>

[Yojimbo99]

<DIV>when the passive hate lines for tanks were first being looked at pre-lu13 i had really hoped that an advoidance based passive ability would have  been along the  lines pretty much how the OP has stated it for monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i thought it would have been a great idea then and i still think it a great idea now. could even have had a cool kung fu-ish name on the line  .. like taunting monkey or something</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the warrior  passive hate works by gettin hit ( guardians proc solid hate whlie zerks proc hate and damage ala' bruiser style) it gives them a huge advantage when tanking multi-based encounters. once a grp taunt is popped and the mobs all swing a few times its pretty much locked down with out all the silly tab shifting that a monk has to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rrawl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AndrewSquared wrote:<BR><BR>Tanking:<BR>Guardian>Berzker=Paladin>Shadowknight=Bruiser>Monk<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>There are problems with this... becuase there are two aspects to tanking.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1. Staying Alive.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>2. Generating/Keeping aggro.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Guardians rule at item #1, hands down. But often other fighters can manage a higher level of item #2.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>IMO... it's far better to have a tank that excels at item #2, as long as they can manage item #1, rather then the other way around.</FONT></P> <P><BR></P>

[Bladewind]

I love this idea as well for both roleplaying purposes and functionality. We are the only ones who have to dance around constantly shifting targets to hold aggro. While it is doable, it is more of a bother than it should be. As the OP suggested, replacing our hate on hit proc with a hate on avoid proc would be wondeful and bring our passive aggro gain in line with other tank types. I'd vote for either "Slippery Monkey" or "Dancing Monkey" as the new name <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ezariel]

<DIV>Its for this reason that I specced the wisdom AA line and use a 2 hander for tanking.  I have absolutely no problems holding aggro anymore against even multi-group encounters against any class unless they go absolutely nuts.  I don't even bother switching targets anymore.</DIV>

[scalzo]

I like this idea. It will put us Monks on par with other tanks. Man I hate my tab key LOL.

[jrolla777]

to the OP 0 i think its a rational idea and could be nice, but when i'm trying to pull a mob off someone else per se, i'd rather have our current taunt stance. hey, maybe they'll give us both <span>:smileysurprised:</span><div></div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mendaril wrote:<BR> <DIV>Monk have only 2 taunts. One single and one group then we have the Dragon stances that allow us to build hate on one guy that we are hitting.  This is ok if you are only tanking one or two at a time but how many times are we tanking and have to deal with groups of 3 or more.  It's not enough.  Refresh timers are too slow to deal with it.  I have an idea for the monk's dragon stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change gain hate on 50% of hits to gain hate when you are missed.  We are avoidance tanks.  Give us an avoidance hate building stance.  I don't know about you but when you swing and miss on a mob through the whole fight wouldn't you get mad?  Shouldn't it be the same for mobs that swing and miss a monk?  This would greatly help monk tank and keep aggro.  Please let me know your thoughts on this!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think that the dodging part [Removed for Content] off the mobs more should have been thought of earlier, as it makes sense.  I know if I was trying to hit something and I missed, I would be [Removed for Content], it is just common sense.  I hope they are reading this and maybe even implement it for all classes not just us, sure we would benefit the most as we dodge the most *shrugs*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[artophwar]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc>I actually think this would greatly unbalance us. Even though it is a good idea it will cause a lot of problems with what class builds the most agro. Our hate gain will be 10x better than any other class if we pull 10 separate mobs, throw up our ae attack, and then drop tsunami. Then of course the nurf bat will follow and it usually swings pretty hard.</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>

[Kelson]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> artophwar wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc>I actually think this would greatly unbalance us. Even though it is a good idea it will cause a lot of problems with what class builds the most agro. Our hate gain will be 10x better than any other class if we pull 10 separate mobs, throw up our ae attack, and then drop tsunami. Then of course the nurf bat will follow and it usually swings pretty hard.</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It all depends on how strong the taunt component is.  If mitigation tanks that get hit by most swings can get a taunt proc when hit, why can't we get, as avoidance tanks that get missed most swings, get a taunt proc when we are missed?  I don't see a disparity between the 2 ideas.</DIV>

[JudyJudy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mendaril wrote: <P>I always welcome opinions as to how I do things and how I can change... I'm sorry if I seemed a bit short on yours I meant no offense but it did seem as though you were trying to make me feel belittled... I do thank you for your response to my post friend...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>That's the teacher in me, I think.  I have a tendancy to lecture when I probably shouldn't.  :smileywink:</EM></P> <P><EM>My apologies again for giving you that impression.</EM></P> <P><EM>That said, it looks as if your agro idea is very popular.  I can definitely see the roleplay value of missing your target over and over and over resulting in the mob getting a bit peeved.</EM></P> <P><EM>With the oncoming avoidance revamp, I'm assuming there will be a change of mob scaling concerning their abilities and overall stats.  If there is a good time to incorporate this agro idea - it would be at EoF launch.</EM><BR></P><p>Message Edited by JudyJudy on <span class=date_text>10-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 PM</span>

[TheWorm]

I think this idea has a LOT of merit.  However, with the upcoming changes to avoidance/mitigation theres going to be a lot more important thing to work on.  I say this because effectivly they would make the switch and scale the result to match the current hate gain.  From a RP standpoint this is a great idea.  I'd be curious to see it tried on test.  <div></div>

[tuli]

<P>Forget taunt and better aggro keeping...</P> <P>All we getting by EoF AA's are a speech like this: "Go play in corner, you are not tank, be a lesser brigand"</P> <P>3 types of deaggros but not a single aggro keeper. Thanks to rest of noobs who can't tank.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Specteral]

I rather like this idea, but I do see one potential concern:  What if the mob gets away from you?As I understand the current proc, every time we hit we might generate extra aggro.  Under the presently suggested system, when the mob misses us, we gain extra aggro.Therefore, if the mob gets away somehow (chain stun/interupt, overzealous M1/fabled DPS going nuts right at the get go, etc) then getting aggro back would be harder wouldn't it?Or am I totally reading it wrong again?  lol<div></div>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Specteral wrote:<BR>I rather like this idea, but I do see one potential concern:  What if the mob gets away from you?<BR><BR>As I understand the current proc, every time we hit we might generate extra aggro.  Under the presently suggested system, when the mob misses us, we gain extra aggro.<BR><BR>Therefore, if the mob gets away somehow (chain stun/interupt, overzealous M1/fabled DPS going nuts right at the get go, etc) then getting aggro back would be harder wouldn't it?<BR><BR>Or am I totally reading it wrong again?  lol<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The thing that many dislike about the current passive proc is that you only accrue hate on what you have targeted. All other tank classes have an ability to passively gain hate on all mobs in (and even out of) the encounter without shifting their targets.  For instance, guardians and berzerkers have an ability that procs a hate gain on a mob x% of the time whenever they are hit.  The suggestion is to change our ability to an analogue of this that takes avoidance, our means of tanking , into account.  If a low avoidance tank can proc hate whenever something hits them, it seems the natural progression would be that a high avoidance tank would proc hate when they were missed.   The tremendous advantage to having some sort of passive hate gain is that you can focus on one target at a time without worrying about other mobs in the encounter peeling as easily.  Granted, it is currently easier for us to get peels back with the offensive proc, but I'd rather just prevent them from happenning with a defensive proc.  You still have your single target taunt, high damage CAs, and rescue to regain aggro should a mob peel.<p>Message Edited by Bladewind on <span class=date_text>10-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[AndrewSquared]

<DIV>Even Pally's and SK's have "passive" hate gain. Paladins have amends, which gives (I think) 46% of that persons hate to the paladin, as well as a group hate transfer. Shadowknights have something far more similar to the Warrior line, a damage shield that also adds hate with each hit (don't remember the numbers on that). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, as far as I can tell, brawlers are the only class where you have to actively DO something to build more hate. Take that as you may.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and my previous post wasn't meant to be my idea or thoughts on how I would LIKE things to be in the tanking heirarchy, just how they really are in general. I haven't seen any guardian or berzerker who was at least half decent loose agro from a normal group. On raids, it's guardian all the way, no problem with agro, and stays alive the best for the agro they can hold.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yeah, I agree, if you can't hold agro, staying alive through a massive pummeling dosen't mean squatt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oalu, Monk</DIV>

[Cirth_Beer]

i like this idea  (and i hate my tab key too :p)<div></div>

[Specteral]

Good point Bladewind, I hadn't thought that all the way through.  With the proc working on avoidance, the odds of needing to peel should drop.That settles that, I agree, this is a great idea.<div></div>

[Mendaril]

Thanks for backing me up guys!!  Now all we need to do is get a dev's attention to read this.  I'm glad this is a popular idea :smileyvery-happy:  I just hate to see the monk or bruiser become something less than a tank.  We are tanks and we need to be on par with other tanks.  As it is now we are pushed out of MT possitions because of A) hate control and B) people who don't know the class strengths!  I just want to hear from a dev to know what their thoughts are!!!!

[blueduckie]

<DIV>Didnt read past a couple posts on this thread but I dont see why this needs changed at all. For one they set up aggro of classes differently on purpose so tanks where better in different situation. That includes aggro. Knights and Warriors have the best ae aggro but there single target aggro is no where near as good as a monks or bruisers. It is not to hard to find mob areas where there are only ^^^'s to make a monk shine. As for raids no one can hold a single target like a monk. If you are using fast weapons 9especially with eof changes comming up that should make monks better targets) you can have dps pretty much go all out and not peel from you with out them relying on a troubador aggro reducer. Also if you have cane flock ae you can use it on a encounter you really need the ae aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as I can tell if you change the stance you just turn monk aggro into no longer being as unqieu. There is no reason to over power monk aggro as it is the single highest one target aggro capability. Guardians often lose targets on single target aggro (sta aa line which is over powered was there only saving grace on this) I play both a guardian and a monk. I thinkthings are great howthey are. I think your asking to much if you want more aggro. Game isnt meant to be easy mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thought of stance being changed to you being hit or the mob hitting would lower your aggro alot. Watch how slow the mobs hit. If you talk to a guardian up to about lvl 50 or 60 they are going to tell you they cant hold aggro well at all. Single target peels on any good dps. Ae mobs do to but they still generate the most ae aggro. Well why is this. One mobs dont hit extremely fast so there taunt stance doesnt generate near the aggro you would think. They dont have enough single target aggro until getting reinforcement and deep in aa's. If monks stance is changedto passive aggro it would be come the same thing. The monk dps would help some on single target aggro but understand. Guardians have more single and group taunts and because of how there stance is they rely on hate increase skills and deaggros on dps. Like troubador song etc. So before you think changing monk stance would help. Try playing a guardian or a class with those skills to see how good you really have it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>10-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 AM</span>

[Mendaril]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <DIV>Didnt read past a couple posts on this thread but I dont see why this needs changed at all. For one they set up aggro of classes differently on purpose so tanks where better in different situation. That includes aggro. Knights and Warriors have the best ae aggro but there single target aggro is no where near as good as a monks or bruisers. It is not to hard to find mob areas where there are only ^^^'s to make a monk shine. As for raids no one can hold a single target like a monk. If you are using fast weapons 9especially with eof changes comming up that should make monks better targets) you can have dps pretty much go all out and not peel from you with out them relying on a troubador aggro reducer. Also if you have cane flock ae you can use it on a encounter you really need the ae aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Try reading them... you will see that the majority of people think this is a problem... I play both Monk and Guard and from expirience I know their strength and weakness...  even on single encounters guards have no issue holding aggro if they are played right... same thing with monk on group encounters... all I'm saying is that to keep a group on a monk, he has to swap targets constantly... this gets anoying after a while and you still end up losing mobs... yeah maybe it's easier to peel them back but I prefer to prevent them from moving off all together...  agro control is a group effort don't get me wrong... if a wiz nukes the hell out of Sothis... well he won't last long... even with the current monk stance...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as I can tell if you change the stance you just turn monk aggro into no longer being as unqieu. There is no reason to over power monk aggro as it is the single highest one target aggro capability. Guardians often lose targets on single target aggro (sta aa line which is over powered was there only saving grace on this) I play both a guardian and a monk. I thinkthings are great howthey are. I think your asking to much if you want more aggro. Game isnt meant to be easy mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>This wouldn't put the game easy in 'easy mode'... you still have to worry about mobs peeling off just you would be able to focus on the one while still having a passive hate gain like ALL OTHER TANKS... I'm not talking about pre lvl 20 crap... when I tank SoS or PoA I have to focus on one encounter at a time instead a Guard can come pull the whole room and never loose a single mob even when warlocks and furies are slaming then hard...  I think that is an unfair advantage... all I'm asking for is to make us be on par with the other plate tanks...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thought of stance being changed to you being hit or the mob hitting would lower your aggro alot. Watch how slow the mobs hit. If you talk to a guardian up to about lvl 50 or 60 they are going to tell you they cant hold aggro well at all. Single target peels on any good dps. Ae mobs do to but they still generate the most ae aggro. Well why is this. One mobs dont hit extremely fast so there taunt stance doesnt generate near the aggro you would think. They dont have enough single target aggro until getting reinforcement and deep in aa's. If monks stance is changedto passive aggro it would be come the same thing. The monk dps would help some on single target aggro but understand. Guardians have more single and group taunts and because of how there stance is they rely on hate increase skills and deaggros on dps. Like troubador song etc. So before you think changing monk stance would help. Try playing a guardian or a class with those skills to see how good you really have it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes on single mob encounters we would generate less hate... but give me a break our DPS is so much better than other tanks that we would still be the best single mob fighter but we have no group control... one group taunt on a long timer and one (or two at higher lvl) ae attacks in not enough to keep aggro over time... hate drops slowly over time and we don't have enough to keep up with hate generated by healers... and this is not a lack of ability because I have 15+ master abilities and the rest are Adept 3... it's just we can not keep hate over the length of a battle with out tabing through encounters...  </FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by blueduckie on <SPAN class=date_text>10-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>All I'm saying is we need a passive hate gain like other tanks... either it's what I suggested or a hate transfer of some sort or what ever we need something... it's not working the way it is...</FONT>

[Bladewind]

<P>Exactly!  The lack of a passive hate gain might make holding one encounter a bit inconvneient, but it makes handling adds/multi encounters a complete pita.  I had some rather zealous folks going blue aoe crazy in an instance last night, and I was just about ready to pull my hair out because they kept pulling groups of 3-4 mobs while we were engaged.  We had as many as 5 encounters on us at once.  For another tank, holding extra groups is as simple as popping an aoe and letting the hate build as the mobs attack and trigger the passive hate proc.  For a brawler, we can initially grab aggro via our own blue aoe, but then we have to go from target to target building up extra hate one target at a time, rather than on all at once.  This inevitably leads to peels since we can only build significant hate on one mob at a time.  Shifting the proc from activatinging when we hit something to proccing when something avoids us would put us on an even footing for handling adds and allow us to be able to tank multiple mobs in the same manner as other tanks.  </P> <P>From a RP perspective, the notion that continually missing your target would infuriate you just makes sense.</P>

[JudyJudy]

<DIV><EM>I whipped this up in about 60 seconds.  Perhaps if a percentage was put on the combat art, the fear of unbalancing would be eased.</EM></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <P><B><U><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3></FONT></SPAN></U></B></P> <P><B><U><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#99ff66>Serene Wind</FONT></FONT></SPAN></U></B></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#99ff66>Master I</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#99ff66>A stance that the monk can assume during combat that has a chance to increase the threat when a blow is deflected or parried.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Up to ten attackers can be affected at once.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>Target:<SPAN>  </SPAN>Self</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>Power: 100</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>Casting:<SPAN>  </SPAN>0.5</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>Recast:<SPAN>  </SPAN>30.0 seconds</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>Duration:<SPAN>  </SPAN>Until Cancelled</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>Max AoE targets:<SPAN>  </SPAN>10</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>Level:<SPAN>  </SPAN>70</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>Effects:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3>On a successful deflection or parry this spell has a 50% chance to cast Serene Wind on <SPAN> </SPAN>attacking targets.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#99ff66><SPAN>           </SPAN>-Increase threat by 350</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#99ff66 size=3></FONT> </P></DIV>

[Bladewind]

<P>I'd rather it be a constant buff that just replaces the hate proc we have now.  Guardians get a 50% chance to proc 400ish when they are hit, zerks a 20% chance to proc the same + a similar amount of damage (1 damage = 1 threat) damage when hit...  Changing ours to something like 30% to proc 250ish (at adept 3) when we avoid an attack would have it right in line with those buffs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Here's  a little number crunching:</P> <P>Plate avoid ~55%, which means a 45% chance to be hit.  </P> <P>Guardian:  45% chance to be hit * 50% chance to proc* 400 hate per proc = about 90 hate proc per time the mob hits.</P> <P>Zerk:  45% chance to be hit * 20% chance to proc * (400 threat per proc + 400 threat (from damage component) = about 72 hate per time the mob hits.</P> <P>Brawler ~70% avoid  - proposed hate on avoid buff:  70% chance to be missed* 30% chance to proc* 250 hate per proc = 52.5 hate proc when mob misses brawler</P> <P>Given the same enemies with the same attack speed, a brawler is missed ~1.5 times for every time a warrior would be hit.   (70% chance to be missed : 45% chance to be hit is approx 1.5:1)</P> <P>52.5 hate/miss on brawler * 1.5 misses on brawler/hit on warrior~ 79 hate generated on brawler in the same amount of time as a warrior is hit once.  This means passive hate gain on the brawler (using the suggested values) would be about the same as a zerker sees and moderately less than what a guardian experiences.  The numbers can be tweaked either way.  This just shows how easy it is to manipulate them to make an effect that passively generates hate over time comparable to what other tanks have.</P>

[EasternKing]

<P>just to correct your assumptions </P> <P>Guardians Get 50% chance at master 1 to proc holding the line on target attacker when the attacker DAMAGES the guardian ..increases threat to target by 478. ..its also easily resisted..its no where near as good as you all seem to think.</P> <P>a 50% chance on every attack when your self hasted 100% haste is out of this world...not damage ..hitting.</P> <P>and guards dont have easy mode on group encounters ..a zerker or a pally or even an SK has the ability to generate more aoe aggro than a guardian ..guards get 1 blue aoe 30sec recast and 1 encounter based aoe ...pallys zerker and sk's have 3-5 true aoes ....they own guards on aoe damage ...single target you say ....brawlers and pallys and zerkers again own a guard on single target hate generation. </P> <P>get a clue about the game and what class's have what before you start the waghh bandwagon on guards again.</P>

[Bladewind]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P>just to correct your assumptions </P> <P>Guardians Get 50% chance at master 1 to proc holding the line on target attacker when the attacker DAMAGES the guardian ..increases threat to target by 478. ..its also easily resisted..its no where near as good as you all seem to think.</P> <P>a 50% chance on every attack when your self hasted 100% haste is out of this world...not damage ..hitting.</P> <P>and guards dont have easy mode on group encounters ..a zerker or a pally or even an SK has the ability to generate more aoe aggro than a guardian ..guards get 1 blue aoe 30sec recast and 1 encounter based aoe ...pallys zerker and sk's have 3-5 true aoes ....they own guards on aoe damage ...single target you say ....brawlers and pallys and zerkers again own a guard on single target hate generation. </P> <P>get a clue about the game and what class's have what before you start the waghh bandwagon on guards again.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>50% every time the guardian is damged makes it even better than what was assumed.  If that is the case, you proc hate from hostile spells and combat arts as well as from melee attacks.  If you would care to actually read the thread, you would notice that no one is complaining about guardians or their abilities.  Quite the contrary...  The complaint is that brawlers have zero passive hate gain ability while all ofther tanking classes do.  An art similar to what guardians have is suggested as a replacement for our current hate proc to bring brawlers in line with everyone else.  To hammer the brawler issue with passive hate generation home, even a *rogue* can take an AA skill to get a passive hate buff...  I've played several tank classes and a rogue at high levels.  I do have "a clue" about the hate gen abilities that other classes have.</P> <P>I'm not sure why you brought up single target issues, as no tank should have a problem with that.  Damage = threat, so combat arts on one target work just as well as taunts.  Actually read the discussion before firing off a rant that has nothing to do with what is being talked about in the thread.  No one singled out gaurdians to whine about them being overpowered.  Instead, a guardian skill was used as a reference for a template for a suggested brawler skill.</P>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mendaril wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <DIV>Didnt read past a couple posts on this thread but I dont see why this needs changed at all. For one they set up aggro of classes differently on purpose so tanks where better in different situation. That includes aggro. Knights and Warriors have the best ae aggro but there single target aggro is no where near as good as a monks or bruisers. It is not to hard to find mob areas where there are only ^^^'s to make a monk shine. As for raids no one can hold a single target like a monk. If you are using fast weapons 9especially with eof changes comming up that should make monks better targets) you can have dps pretty much go all out and not peel from you with out them relying on a troubador aggro reducer. Also if you have cane flock ae you can use it on a encounter you really need the ae aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Try reading them... you will see that the majority of people think this is a problem... I play both Monk and Guard and from expirience I know their strength and weakness...  even on single encounters guards have no issue holding aggro if they are played right... same thing with monk on group encounters... all I'm saying is that to keep a group on a monk, he has to swap targets constantly... this gets anoying after a while and you still end up losing mobs... yeah maybe it's easier to peel them back but I prefer to prevent them from moving off all together...  agro control is a group effort don't get me wrong... if a wiz nukes the hell out of Sothis... well he won't last long... even with the current monk stance...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as I can tell if you change the stance you just turn monk aggro into no longer being as unqieu. There is no reason to over power monk aggro as it is the single highest one target aggro capability. Guardians often lose targets on single target aggro (sta aa line which is over powered was there only saving grace on this) I play both a guardian and a monk. I thinkthings are great howthey are. I think your asking to much if you want more aggro. Game isnt meant to be easy mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>This wouldn't put the game easy in 'easy mode'... you still have to worry about mobs peeling off just you would be able to focus on the one while still having a passive hate gain like ALL OTHER TANKS... I'm not talking about pre lvl 20 crap... <STRONG><U>when I tank SoS or PoA I have to focus on one encounter at a time instead a Guard can come pull the whole room and never loose a single mob even when warlocks and furies are slaming then hard...  I think that is an unfair advantage</U></STRONG>... all I'm asking for is to make us be on par with the other plate tanks...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thought of stance being changed to you being hit or the mob hitting would lower your aggro alot. Watch how slow the mobs hit. If you talk to a guardian up to about lvl 50 or 60 they are going to tell you they cant hold aggro well at all. Single target peels on any good dps. Ae mobs do to but they still generate the most ae aggro. Well why is this. One mobs dont hit extremely fast so there taunt stance doesnt generate near the aggro you would think. They dont have enough single target aggro until getting reinforcement and deep in aa's. If monks stance is changedto passive aggro it would be come the same thing. The monk dps would help some on single target aggro but understand. Guardians have more single and group taunts and because of how there stance is they rely on hate increase skills and deaggros on dps. Like troubador song etc. So before you think changing monk stance would help. Try playing a guardian or a class with those skills to see how good you really have it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes on single mob encounters we would generate less hate... but give me a break our DPS is so much better than other tanks that we would still be the best single mob fighter but we have no group control... one group taunt on a long timer and one (or two at higher lvl) ae attacks in not enough to keep aggro over time... hate drops slowly over time and we don't have enough to keep up with hate generated by healers... and this is not a lack of ability because I have 15+ master abilities and the rest are Adept 3... it's just we can not keep hate over the length of a battle with out tabing through encounters...  </FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by blueduckie on <SPAN class=date_text>10-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>All I'm saying is we need a passive hate gain like other tanks... either it's what I suggested or a hate transfer of some sort or what ever we need something... it's not working the way it is...</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>there is 1 reason why i posted in this thread (bolded and underlined) ...that and the fact that all you supposedly well read brawlers dont even know what triggers the guard passive hate gain.....</P> <P>guards are about middle of the road for hate gen ..single target and group....im kinda [Removed for Content] as being classed the be all and end all of hate generation and being used to be an example of what other fighters lack ...guards are NOT the best single target Hate generation and guards are NOT the best at multi mob hate generation</P> <P>so again 1 get your facts straight and 2 actually lists the correct class's for the omg we suck compared to these </P> <P>guards get 1 single target taunt 1 encounter taunt ...they generate the same threat as a brawlers at M1 / M2 ..guards get an aoe taunt encounter only and 1 aoe ...brawlers get an True aoe and no encounter based aoe taunt ...so in fact the class your saying is the master of easy mode for multi mobs has 1 more taunt than a brawler ...omg the world is ending...<BR></P> <P>(Edited yes i know guards get an attack with a taunt combined but that is single target and we are talking about aoe and multi mobs)</P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>11-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 AM</span>

[Bladewind]

<P>The thread is about brawlers not having a passive hate gain.  I personally think berzerkers and paladins are the 'best' hate generators overall, but I am not clamoring for brawlers to get insolent gibe or amends.  The gaurdian passive skill was cited as an example because it is so similar to what monks want - a buff that procs hate on mobs when they miss us.  Having zero passive hate gian sucks.. period.  This is not about which class can generate the most hate, but it is about which class has zero ability to generate hate passively - brawlers.  The guardian skill is basically an inverted model of monks want.  That is why it was brought up, not because we think guardians are 'the best' or because guardians do do not deserve the skill.</P> <P>As an aside, don't think you are being just slightly nit-picky about the difference between threat proc when hit and threat proc when damaged?  How often are you hit but not damaged?  A few ToS procs, maybe?  My apologies for not getting the art correct from memory verbatim, but the two are essentailly the same since procs of off arts/spells you are hit by will make up for the few hits you take but do not receive damage from.</P> <P>The anecdotal claim about being able to run around a zone and have multiple encounters on you without issue that someone else made may be overstating the difference, but the fact is that a monk has to almost constantly switch targets on a single group encounter to reliably hold aggro, and we have a major headache with multiple encounters or out-of-encounter adds.  A crusader or warrior is also challenged by this to some degree, but has a much easier time holding aggro on multiple mobs, especially multiple encounters, than a monk because they have passive aggro generation.  We have a weak blue aoe on a 30 sec reuse and medium blue aoe on a long reuse.  Once they are popped, we are SOL and generate zero threat on mobs other than our target.  However great or poor you think passive abilities are, you get to continuously accrue hate on mobs that you do not target, assuming you have initial aggro.  Brawlers do not get this, and therefore experience peels galore.  This destabilizes the encounter since the mobs start moving around when we have to chase down targets etc.</P> <P>To reiterate, we want a passive hate gain.  We are not citing the guardian ability because we think it is the end-all be-all, we are citing it because it is structured very similar to the ability that monks want.  Having to constantly switch targets really sucks.  Say what you want about how well your passive ability works, but you know you are not constantly dancing from one target to another and you know that popping an aoe when you get an add will let you hold aggro and build hate so long as people in your group do not target the add prior to finishing your current target.</P>

[Yojimbo99]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>there is 1 reason why i posted in this thread (bolded and underlined) ...that and the fact that all you supposedly well read brawlers dont even know what triggers the guard passive hate gain.....</P> <P>guards are about middle of the road for hate gen ..single target and group....im kinda [Removed for Content] as being classed the be all and end all of hate generation and being used to be an example of what other fighters lack ...guards are NOT the best single target Hate generation and guards are NOT the best at multi mob hate generation</P> <P>so again 1 get your facts straight and 2 actually lists the correct class's for the omg we suck compared to these </P> <P>guards get 1 single target taunt 1 encounter taunt ...they generate the same threat as a brawlers at M1 / M2 ..guards get an aoe taunt encounter only and 1 aoe ...brawlers get an True aoe and no encounter based aoe taunt ...so in fact the class your saying is the master of easy mode for multi mobs has 1 more taunt than a brawler ...omg the world is ending...<BR></P> <P>(Edited yes i know guards get an attack with a taunt combined but that is single target and we are talking about aoe and multi mobs)</P> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:16 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do you even know why you're so angry.. really that one lil line  that hasnt be used as a quote or a benchmark reference in the entire thread.. and some how you want to troll here..</P> <P>the heart of this matter is single target offensive hate proc for monks is a waste .. even with it off we often peel and take aggro as it is .. brawlers have an awesome ability to 360 block/parry and yet the bottom of the barrel group based hate generation. instead we were given great singel target hate gen .. guess what we didnt need that to begin with.. while it has it uses its very limited ..we alrdy deliver large amounts single target hate as it is due to dps.. we never needed the whole dragon stance proc line as it currently stands imo..</P> <P>as to your first post in here about some reference to 100% haste .. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is that having to do with anything in here ??? /boggle</P> <P>what we are talking about is a passive proc that would work when we dodge/deflected/parry/riposted (or some combination of those) this was never a guardian whine thread </P> <P>really i dont think any of the fighters have to big of an issue with single target in paticular brawlers by nature and warriors that go sta line; its large group based mobs where all the fighters have the problems( or can potentially)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00>.brawlers get an True aoe and no encounter based aoe taunt</FONT> ...so in fact the class your saying is the master of easy mode for multi mobs has 1 more taunt than a brawler ...omg the world is ending...<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>(Edited yes i know guards get an attack with a taunt combined but that is single target and we are talking about aoe and multi mobs)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>[Removed for Content] you talking about again EK?</P> <P>All taunts we have are shared with all fighters. They are exactly same. We don't have AOE taunt. I underlined it for you. Every other fighter has passive taunts with AA's at least, also did I say we have no interrupt beside that taunt? </P> <P>"You are mitigation tank and supposed to take damage but low damage, so you get your taunt from being hit"</P> <P>"We are avoidance fighters and supposed not to take damage, we should get our taunt from not being hit" how hard to understand logic?</P> <P>You know what is wrong now? You get taunt from being hit naturally and not being hit from AA at same time with buckler line. How stupid is that, isnt it?</P> <P><IMG src="http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6136/easternkingel2.jpg"></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>11-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:39 PM</span>

[Sslarrga]

<DIV>Guardian reactive Hate nowhere near as good as some thing?  Uh...yeah ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Considering that a Guardian on a raid can maintain aggro on multiple mobs with Raid wide AE's even when those mobs aren't in the same group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something that NO other fighter class can do except a Zerker and even a Zerker loses aggro in those situations more easily than said guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Throw in a monk?  Yeah, first big AE nuke that goes off, poof dead Warlock/Wizard and to some extents Rangers.  And that's WITH Coercer Hate buff AND Dirge hate buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure single target the only classes that are going to take aggro from me is a DPS buffed Bruiser (pulling 1.4k-1.7k dps), Zerker (pulling 2k+ dps), Brigand, or Assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and BTW, those poor poor mistreated Guardians are also pulling 1k+ dps on raids, AND can hold aggro better than a monk in that same single target situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I don't mind if Guardians tank better, they should.  Or if they can hold aggro better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I DO however have an issue when they do that AND can pull the same or more DPS as a Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm absolutely sick of Guardians whining that they can't dps for shiznit when if they choose DPS friendly AA's they can out DPS a freaking monk with DPS oriented AAs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV>Croaker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><U><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>.brawlers get an True aoe and no encounter based aoe taunt</STRONG></FONT> </U>...so in fact the class your saying is the master of easy mode for multi mobs has 1 more taunt than a brawler ...omg the world is ending...<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>(Edited yes i know guards get an attack with a taunt combined but that is single target and we are talking about aoe and multi mobs)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>[Removed for Content] you talking about again EK?</P> <P>All taunts we have are shared with all fighters. They are exactly same. We don't have AOE taunt. I underlined it for you. Every other fighter has passive taunts with AA's at least, also did I say we have no interrupt beside that taunt? </P> <P>"You are mitigation tank and supposed to take damage but low damage, so you get your taunt from being hit"</P> <P>"We are avoidance fighters and supposed not to take damage, we should get our taunt from not being hit" how hard to understand logic?</P> <P>You know what is wrong now? You get taunt from being hit naturally and not being hit from AA at same time with buckler line. How stupid is that, isnt it?</P> <P><IMG src="http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6136/easternkingel2.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:39 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>whats so hard to understand about the bolded and underlined part of my original post Selch ? you as a brawler have an aoe attack a blue aoe ...and have no aoe with a taunt component ...guards have an aoe attack and an aoe encounter based taunt..guess i was not clear enough for you.</P> <P>again ill state that guards get 1 aoe / encounter taunt more than a brawler </P> <P>read on selch </P> <P><IMG src="http://www.eq2forsaken.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Taunts.JPG"></P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

The problem, EasternKing, is that the way you typed the sentence it looked like you were saying we had a True Aoe taunt... because you never say "damage" in that sentence, you go on to talk about the encounter taunt. If you wrote more clearly, there'd be no mistakes. People just need to say "encounter" when they mean green background, "aoe" when they mean blue background, and "damage" when they mean damage vs "taunt" when they mean taunt.What you aren't understanding though, is that the problem has nothing to do with the casted taunts. It's all about how much better the passive taunt is at hold aggro on EVERYTHING, compared to anything Brawlers have.This is the point: Guardian passive taunt "50% chance to taunt when damaged" built into a class designed to be hit more for less damage, is superior to the Monk active taunt of "50% chance to taunt when landing a blow", requiring that you land a blow on each creature.In other words... Monk has to <b>manually</b> switch targets constantly. Whereas the Guardian <b>doesn't even have to do anything at all, but sit there and look pretty. </b>Both do better when less defensive (Guardian gets hit more, Monk can land more hits), so the manual vs passive is the only major difference.<b></b>If you don't understand immediately why this can be such a HUGE factor in holding aggro...... Imagine you have 10 things to hold aggro on (say, 3 groups). The Monk has to cycle through each individual creature, hitting them an average of 2 times each, to make it so his ability affects everything.A guardian only needs to get HIT an average of two times per creature to get the <b>same</b> benefit.In a timeline, this is how the Taunt numbers would look:<font face="Courier New">            # of ProcsAttacks   Monk  Guardian   1       -        -   2       1       10   3       -        -   4       2       20   5       -        -   6       3       30   7       -        -   8       4       40   9       -        -  10       5       50  11       -        -  12       6       60  13       -        -  14       7       70  15       -        -  16       8       80  17       -        -  18       9       90  19       -        -  20      10      100</font>In the same situation, the Guardian has 10x the procs going off on this ability, and even better, he doesn't even have to do anything to get them. On the other hand, the monk not only has to land hits, but also has to switch targets, making assisting a PIA, not to mention until he's hit every single mob, <i>the ones he hasn't hit has had ZERO taunt from this ability</i>, while the <i>Guardian has been taunting each equally, right from the beginning</i>.No, it's not 10x more taunt than Monks. It is exactly as many times more procs as there are creatures attacking.When it's a single target, the Monk has the advantage because he can control how fast the procs happen, and it's only one creature, no other creature is being left behind when the monk goes nuts on attacks. However, when there's any more than 1 mob, the Guardian starts to pull ahead, in keeping aggro on EVERYTHING AT ONCE.I don't think I can make this any more clear.If Brawlers got more AoE's, then the proactive proc taunts would be better, because we'd be able to proc on multiple targets to match a similar aggro control the "when hit" one has.But to add insult to injury, not only do we have less AoE abilities overall than most tanks, we don't even get an Achievement ability that multiplies our attacks, <b>like every single other tank can get</b> (Warrior and Crusader Agility lines BOTH grant autoattack vs multiple targets). Brawlers get a big 8% reduction in reuse timers in place of it. That does not even come CLOSE.Basically, we are being told to just completely forget thinking of being any real aggro holder when it comes to groups. Which would be less of a problem if holding single target aggro was actually a chore for the other tanks. When 90% of the rest of your abilities are single target, (causing aggro), or when all your multi-target attacks STILL land on the single target (it's not like it doesn't work on single target here), most tanks don't have a problem holding single target.The only situation where a proactive taunt proc helps in any appreciable manner over the passive one, or multiple target bonuses, is when you need to grab aggro against something that isn't currently focused on you, and it's only one target.This means for memwipe encounters, a Brawler will be the best at getting that aggro back.So unless they make 1/6th of encounters memwipe, we are will always remain a worse option for tanking on most situations... regardless of how much more defensive they make us.Changing the proc taunt to AoE would help. Changing that Agility AA line from 8% reduction in reuse time to a "autoattack hits multiple targets" ability, would make us closer to similar aggro holding strength.Those two things and the fix to avoidance tanking would make us viable options, instead of laughable one-trick Tanks we are now. And I use the term "tanks" loosely until we see the next update.<div></div>

[EasternKing]

<DIV>again so many missconceptions its untrue</DIV> <DIV>what are brawlers prepared to sacrifice to get better group aggro abilitys ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brawlers atm are hands down the best single target hate gens of all tanks...and not so hot multi group aggro.</DIV> <DIV>you all seem to think guards and other tanks have it easy and never have to change targets when fighting multi encounters ...here is a BIG heads up all tanks have to tab through targets in multi encounters to hold aggro reliably </DIV> <DIV>another statment which shows just how powerful brawlers are single target hate gen ..i see in this thread again and again ..no tanks really have issue with single target hate gen ...you are WRONG most tanks without the benefit of a hate buff or a hate trans cannot hold aggro on single target against most dps class's </DIV> <DIV>as a guardian if i want to hold aggro reliably im reliant on either a coercer giving me +dps and + hate gain if i want to hold aggro single target from scouts and brawlers and casters.....wake up and smell the coffee NO tank has easy mode for hate generation ..we <STRONG><U>all</U></STRONG> have to work to do our jobs.</DIV><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 AM</span>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <DIV>again so many missconceptions its untrue</DIV> <DIV>what are brawlers prepared to sacrifice to get better group aggro abilitys ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The thread is about replacing our single target hate proc with a passive hate gain proc...  I think we're prepared to sacrifice that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Our single target hate proc is redundant because we can already do enough damage to hold aggro on one target without it.</P> <P>I know every tank has to switch targets to some degree and get outside help from hate transfers etc, but monks have to *constantly* switch targets to even have a prayer.  What you don't seem to be getting is that while we are on a target and proc our hate gen once on that one target, you have all targets hitting you with an equal chance of proccing your hate gen on each.  Ie, if there are 5 mobs in the encounter, you are proccing 5 times as much hate - all without rotating your target.  You can then rotate your target on top of that to spread out damage and single taunts as needed.  If you do not see the staggering advantage in that, I can't really help you.  With passive hate gen and a disciplined group/raid, encounters are very stable.  Peels occur much less frequently because all mobs are continually proccing hate on the tank.  With the current monk style hate gen, hate is increasing on one mob and decaying on all others.  Peels happen early and often because you cannot be everywhere at once adding threat like a tank with passive hate gen can.  Even if the monk manages to keep aggro on everything, the constant target shifting leads to the mobs jumping around and destabilizes the encounter due to positional attacks getting messed up.<BR></P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<div></div><font color="#ffff00">you are WRONG most tanks without the benefit of a hate buff or a hate trans cannot hold aggro on single target against most dps class's</font>Um, what raids are you playing in that doesn't give you a hate buff or hate transfer as the MT?I'm not talking about standard grouping... for the most part, tanking regular group content isn't an issue at all. Tabbing between 2-3 creatures is easy. Most other tanks have it easier with green targets, and can pull whole rooms, but we do fine taking one encounter at a time.It's raids that it becomes an issue. All those debuffs and buffs create extremely high damage for some classes, and especially AoE damage. With hate transfers and bonuses, there isn't really a tank worth his salt that can't hold aggro on a single target. "Press every button you have" pretty much guarantees locked down single target... and with hate bonuses and power regen through the roof, I've never seen anyone, even on pickup raids, have trouble holding single target.It's multiple creature, and multi encounter, RAID, content that brawlers are being left behind. Since most encounters in an Epic zone are multi creature (even bosses 99% of the time), we make a useless raid choice, regardless if we can take the hits or not.I personally think a Paladin with Amends on a large aggro generator (warlock, wizard, etc), makes an even better aggro controller than guardians. However, I think the guardian's ability is light years ahead compared to brawlers. All creatures at once vs one at a time... combined with better AA choices (buckler reversal, agility multi attack), how could we ever compete?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 PM</span>

[Yojimbo99]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <DIV>again so many missconceptions its untrue</DIV> <DIV>what are brawlers prepared to sacrifice to get better group aggro abilitys ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brawlers atm are hands down the best single target hate gens of all tanks...and not so hot multi group aggro.</DIV> <DIV>you all seem to think guards and other tanks have it easy and never have to change targets when fighting multi encounters ...here is a BIG heads up all tanks have to tab through targets in multi encounters to hold aggro reliably </DIV> <DIV>another statment which shows just how powerful brawlers are single target hate gen ..i see in this thread again and again ..no tanks really have issue with single target hate gen ...you are WRONG most tanks without the benefit of a hate buff or a hate trans cannot hold aggro on single target against most dps class's </DIV> <DIV>as a guardian if i want to hold aggro reliably im reliant on either a coercer giving me +dps and + hate gain if i want to hold aggro single target from scouts and brawlers and casters.....wake up and smell the coffee NO tank has easy mode for hate generation ..we <STRONG><U>all</U></STRONG> have to work to do our jobs.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:43 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>wow just wow.. well any way i havew a 70 monk and a 65 zerk and ive all but given up on tanking with my monk.. with the current broken mechanic of advoidance and mitigation its a joke and multiple mob aggro generation is the worst. so bad in fact that ive recently tanked spec'd my brig(6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and i can generate better multi hate then with my monk( who btw took the 64 mas 2 ae taunt choice has mas 1 single traget taunt and both dragon breath and circular strike at mas 1(the 2 ae's blue damage arts we get)) and the sad part is i dotn even have the finnal line in the rogue tanking tree yet( the passive hate gain much like the warriors get )  just ranks in ae taunt and mas 1 singel traget taunt (combine that with a double up and the blue damage ae  and a green ecounter based snare life tap poison ,debuffs and better mitigation and a mini rescue on a much shorter timer ect ect tanking with a rogue is by far more grp efficient with a rogue then a monk imo as things stand.</P> <P>and as my zerk i rarely if ever swith targets and have ZERO ranks in buckler line and keeping  aggro is a joke just about .. the only time its lost is when some brawler/brawlers decide to have a dps contest or a an unlucky brig spams a few arts(and as a brig i know this can happen pretty easy) really about the only time i switch encounters on a zerk is when its time fot the next one to die or i decide to pull entire rooms of mobs! note i said entire rooms some thing that i dont see any monk ever doing unless they just want to test thier grp fd. if im lcuky enough to be a in pug with hate trans with my zerk gettin away from keyboard to sneak  a beer run to the fridge is very very easy and the grp doesnt even know i was gone.</P> <P>so keep coming here and telling all us noobs that we have  no clue while we point out that 800lbs gorrilla to ya but when a tank  spec'd rogue has fewer agro problems( and an ability to passivily gain aggro by gettin hit) then there is an issue with monk hate generation.<BR></P>

[Mendaril]

Did any one else notice that since the patch it is even harder to hold aggro on even one encounter?  My tuants are resisted even more so than before... and yes they are both Master... And is the Tranquil Vision AA supposed to be a joke?!?  5%? 5% hate transfer?  Talk about teasing us... I'm so mad at SOE...

[Fleaba]

<P>I was thinking avoidanced based hate sounded like a good idea too, but I also agree that it could be unbalanced if not done right. </P> <P>I'm making a guess here that if we did have good avoidanced based hate generation....them farmer bot groups would dump the zerkers and get themselves monks to pile up on auto following :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <DIV>again so many missconceptions its untrue</DIV> <DIV>what are brawlers prepared to sacrifice to get better group aggro abilitys ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brawlers atm are hands down the best single target hate gens of all tanks...and not so hot multi group aggro.</DIV> <DIV>you all seem to think guards and other tanks have it easy and never have to change targets when fighting multi encounters ...here is a BIG heads up all tanks have to tab through targets in multi encounters to hold aggro reliably </DIV> <DIV>another statment which shows just how powerful brawlers are single target hate gen ..i see in this thread again and again ..<FONT color=#ff0000>no tanks really have issue with single target hate gen ...you are WRONG most tanks without the benefit of a hate buff or a hate trans cannot hold aggro on single target against most dps class's </FONT></DIV> <DIV>as a guardian if i want to hold aggro reliably im reliant on either a coercer giving me +dps and + hate gain if i want to hold aggro single target from scouts and brawlers and casters.....wake up and smell the coffee NO tank has easy mode for hate generation ..we <STRONG><U>all</U></STRONG> have to work to do our jobs.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:43 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ummm... as a troub (and a former Monk), in normal groups I usually start with the agro helper, and then I try without it. I usually never put it back, unless we have a brawler tanking. In normal groups the only time I see a single encounter turn away from a plate tank it's usually followed by "Hehehe boom" by whichever of my guildies decided to be funny. In that example, no tank could have kept that mob on him.

[Gungo]

Don't pay attention to estrnking. He does this on every fighter thread. He goes to threads where classes discuss thier problems and trys to convince entire classes they are better then eveyr other fighter and guards are worse and how if that class gets  better at "this" or "that" it will be overpowered. Its a reoccuring theme with him. Most times he gets the game mechanics so completely [Removed for Content]'d he just looks silly.

[Jobeson]

<div></div><div></div>I would just like to say for any monk without the logic to think this through but its been in from way back in dof for aoe tanking.  Tsunami is an aoe taunt guys if you haven't noticed.  Sure they cant [Removed for Content] off the mobs right off the bat but through the tsunami you will most likely taunt each mob at least once.  Your group will need the ability to listen but it will work for agro on multi grouped and ungrouped mobs.  The hardest part is learning to position them.  Throw in our (100% proc + magic aoe) + fire aoe and tanking up to 8 mobs usually works out alright.  Follow up the end of tsunami with our mit increase.  When we get over 8 mobs then you might as well throw a fury up there or something to tank they would be better at it.  Feel free to point out most pugs are full of people who cant tell the difference from aoe and group attacks but at least when your group listens it works.  I always just tell them if they cant even wait 5-10 seconds for agro then they should of made a tank.  The main problem with monk tanking is grouping with noobs... <div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Jobeson on <span class=date_text>12-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 PM</span>

[PantherXX]

<DIV>It seems like everyone has missed something pretty critical in this debate.</DIV> <UL> <LI>Passive hate gain abilities work whether or not you are hitting the mob.  In fact, the guardian ability actually gets BETTER with higher con mobs and epics or named, as they will ALWAYS hit more.</LI> <LI>Proc based hate ONLY works if you hit the mob.  Have you noticed how hard it is to hit a high yellow/orange con mob in defensive stance?  Even our vaunted single target agro control goes out the window in hard fights, because we can neither produce DPS nor hit with our taunt proc.  Our only tool becomes our limited taunts and the ocassional AOE.</LI></UL> <P>I actually like the fact that we rule at single target agro and pay the penalty a bit on group encounters.  However, for hard fights, we don't actually rule on even single targets.  The recent combat changes have made it nearly impossible to generate hate in defensive stance, and we need something to compensate for that.  The brawler class was designed to control agro through DPS, and we cannot do it now on hard encounters.</P> <P>Again ... I am not calling for a nerf of the guardian ability, I just think ours needs tweaking to work as intended.</P> <P>PS  Note that adding an avoidance passed proc also reduces our effectiveness with higher con mobs.  That will not solve the scaling problem.</P><p>Message Edited by PantherXX on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:12 AM</span>

[Quind]

For the slashing/piercing/crushing cut that we take in defensive, I've found dirges more than helpful.  The mastercrafted haste cloaks help too, if you don't have something better in that slot. Passive hate gain would be lovely, but frankly, I'd rather sacrifice our fear for it than our single target proc.  Because I'm greedy.  (Though, the fear /can/ make a nice ST taunt, if you can break it before the mob runs off.)<div></div>

[Kota]

my biggest problem with our hate proc, is that i can't hit the [Removed for Content] mobs when i'm in def stance.  so it doesn't work.<div></div>

[Quind]

<blockquote><hr>Lahkota13 wrote:my biggest problem with our hate proc, is that i can't hit the [Removed for Content] mobs when i'm in def stance.  so it doesn't work.<div></div><hr></blockquote>There's some gear that can help deal with that- the mastercrafted cloaks have +slashing/crushing/piercing on them, along with some haste.  It's not a 100% recovery, but it's something.  Dirges help too, but unfortunately, not everyone lives with someone who plays one.  =/<div></div>

[Junaru]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote: <div>again so many missconceptions its untrue</div> <div>what are brawlers prepared to sacrifice to get better group aggro abilitys ?</div> <div> </div> <div>brawlers atm are hands down the best single target hate gens of all tanks...and not so hot multi group aggro.</div> <div>you all seem to think guards and other tanks have it easy and never have to change targets when fighting multi encounters ...here is a BIG heads up all tanks have to tab through targets in multi encounters to hold aggro reliably </div> <div>another statment which shows just how powerful brawlers are single target hate gen ..i see in this thread again and again ..no tanks really have issue with single target hate gen ...you are WRONG most tanks without the benefit of a hate buff or a hate trans cannot hold aggro on single target against most dps class's </div> <div>as a guardian if i want to hold aggro reliably im reliant on either a coercer giving me +dps and + hate gain if i want to hold aggro single target from scouts and brawlers and casters.....wake up and smell the coffee NO tank has easy mode for hate generation ..we <strong><u>all</u></strong> have to work to do our jobs.</div><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class="date_text">11-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Jumping in this kind of late and I know this is on page two but I thought I would address this anyways. By changing the Monk hate proc off hitting a mob to when we avoid a hit is a sacrifice. Monks would no longer have the same ability to hold aggro on single targets the way we do now. I never did understand why Brawlers were the only fighters that needed to hit a mob to gain aggro while every other class does it by being hit. The idea of changing it to being missed is just common sense to me.I can say that I often shy away from tanking for groups just cause of my lack of ability to hold aggro with group mobs.</div><div></div>