What would it take to balance Bruiser vs. Monk?

[Devolux]

DPS:Scale Monk CAs up a bitThe AE advantage of bruisers is fine - since they are more AE so we should be more DD (but aren't).Buffs:3 minute mitigation buff should be brawler not bruiser.  A 3 min 1300 mit buff if pretty insane - how many fights that a brawler would tnak last more than 3 mins?OR Make Skin Like line a self buff (426 mit or so Master1)Not to mention having insta cast on the root/stun mit buffs would help both kinds of brawlers a ton.This is  not comprehensive or even clear - just wanted to open the discussion - what would it take??<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Monks: Give everything bruisers have to monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers: Give nothing monks have to bruisers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There. Now it's properly balanced.</DIV>

[JerradDoomaxe]

<DIV>I don't want balance, I'd like to see a more defined role for Brawlers, right now were not great tanks, ok to good DPS.</DIV> <DIV>I'd like to see one of the Brawlers become better at Tanking and the other DPS, balance would make almost the same.</DIV> <DIV>But Bruisers do seem to have an edge on Tanking and DPS right now ....</DIV>

[TheWorm]

I believe that the classes are balanced already.  In my expierence, equally grouped/equipped Monk's typically parse (t7 raids) about 100-300 DPS LESS than Bruisers and occasionally beat them.  With the amount of group utility that Monks get I feel that the DPS difference is definately justified.It is also my expierence that Monk's will parse better on single target mobs, so I dont agree that you aren't doing more "DD." The Monk's "Skin Line" is the equivilant of the 1300self mit buff since you can pretty much have it running the whole time while tanking.  The Bruiser's Mit buff has a 3min duration, but also has a 3min recast.  I think one thing both classes would benefit from would be removing the "stun" on Mountain Stance and the Bruiser equivilant and replacing it with a stifle.  The extra 2100 mit is nice... for about 3 seconds until you lose agro.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>The difference in DPS between monks and bruisers is minimal. Hopefully the changes to haste caps can increase monks DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Barring the cap changes. To help balance monks vs bruisers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) remove the 3 sec cast time on Mountain stance buff make it instant and stifle on both monk/bruiser versions<BR>2) remove haste cap (done)<BR>3) give monks a progressive mitigation buff. Sorta liek the int AA. </DIV> <DIV>In example: 100% health=500 mitigation, 90%=600mitigation, 80%=700mitigation, 70%=800 mitigation, 60%=900 mitigation,....10%=1400 mitigation at master 1</DIV> <DIV>4) make tsunami more reliable (removal of +accuracy might help)</DIV> <DIV>5) add lvl 70 fear brawler spell. (both classes)</DIV> <DIV>6) Put heal on 90sec recast timer or make heal amounts the same (timer preferred)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would also like to see the same buff applied to bruisers offensivly. <BR>in example 100% health +2% double atk,+5% riposte, 90%=4/10%, 80%=6/15%, 70%=8/20%, 60%=10/25%, 50%=12/30%,.....10%=20/50%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason i like buffs situated this way they are really tanking buffs. You need to take damage in order to become more powerful. This should make monks more defensive and bruisers more offensive a bit.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:13 AM</span>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>TheWorm wrote:The Monk's "Skin Line" is the equivilant of the 1300self mit buff since you can pretty much have it running the whole time while tanking.  The Bruiser's Mit buff has a 3min duration, but also has a 3min recast.  <hr></blockquote>Talk about misinformed...1. Spirit Like Mountain: It is +544 mitigation and roots monk and it is 30 seconds, 30 seconds recast wait after ended (not running all time sorry). So you mean +1300 mit buff for 3 minutes, 3 minutes recast is same with +544 mitigation buff, rooted , 30 seconds and 30 seconds recast? 2. Infamous Mountain Stance:2176 mitigation, stuns caster (aka same with Hardened Skin of Bruisers) , here comes the killer point. Bruiser version is instant cast, monk version is 3 seconds.... 1....2.....3....Even I agree with Gungo's points, some of those (like heal being 90 seconds) might hurt community and open invite to nerf cries I would say. May be another spell for self-heal with lesser degree for 90 seconds, but not "heal other"<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>10-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[Kainsei]

<blockquote><hr>TheWorm wrote:<u><font color="#6633ff">The Monk's "Skin Line</font>"</u> is the equivilant of the 1300self mit buff since you can pretty much have it running the whole time while tanking.  The Bruiser's Mit buff has a 3min duration, but also has a 3min recast.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>I think you're confusing it with everburning blaze (self buff that gives 40% haste and eats 1% health/3sec).<div></div>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Monks: Give everything bruisers have to monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers: Give nothing monks have to bruisers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There. Now it's properly balanced.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Isnt this called betraying?

[Gungo]

<P>The other problem with bruisers is people like to mix brawler issues such as tanking and DPS and raid usefulness. Which i consider 2 seperate issue. </P> <P>If they made monks more defensive and bruisers more offensive like i said that may help differentiate and balance the 2 classes w/o really overpowering them compared to other classes. But it would still leave us lacking in raid utility. There is still alot of things SOE can do to make us useful. Haste and DPS% only effect autoatks. And spell haste effects combat arts. </P> <P>1) They can make a buff that increases combat art DPS. Like the proc on marr's fist.<BR>2) Create an altruisim type buff. With a much shorter recast (about 3minutes)<BR>3) Give brawlers a "stonedeaf" type skill that aborbs/reduces the next aoe.<BR>4) A short duration avoidance type buff, that reduces a portion of damage on target <BR>5) A buff that takes large damage hits and spreads it out over a short duration.<BR>6) A "detonation" type buff procs an out of encoutner aoe damage/taunt on attack<BR>7) Reduction ward= a 3min recast ward that has a set amount say 2k but reduces each hit by at most a set amount say minus 100 damage per hit. Actually each fighter should have this ability and set to thier own resist type warriors = crush, crusaders= slash, brawler=pierce.<BR><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Change all combat arts except the spell based (fire/cold etc) to melee instead of specific damage type (crush/pierce) or at least leave no more then 1 specific damage type. 4-5 combat arts should not be crushing. It makes brawlers useless on the many crush immune mobs. leave 1 crush, 1 pierce and 1 slash based 1 heat/cold and the rest should be melee. </P> <P>i guess i got on a tangent here<BR></P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Monks: Give everything bruisers have to monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers: Give nothing monks have to bruisers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There. Now it's properly balanced.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Isnt this called betraying?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no. It's called giving monks everything the bruiser has as well as everything the monks have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... its a joke.</DIV>

[Untalent]

Have the devs ever stated anything about working on balance issues between the two? There are obvious advantages that bruisers have over monks, which have been stated time and time again. Gaige says it, everyone knows it. Sure maybe they parse pretty close together on fights, but that doesn't make the classes balanced.<div></div>

[djinnz]

<DIV>bruisers talk of monks having the advantage because of the benfits of haste over dps buffs, monks talk of bruisers having the advantage because of thier mit buff, both seem massivley misimformed about the other ones abilities in that kind of head in the sand, the grass is greener style that alway seems to raise its head on class message boards.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in away i guess that is a sort of balance</DIV>

[Athenodorus]

Is there a benefit to haste over DPS? Not trying to be rude, I'm just a semi-newbie still and never heard of one. <div></div>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Athenodorus wrote:<BR>Is there a benefit to haste over DPS? Not trying to be rude, I'm just a semi-newbie still and never heard of one.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Proc rate improves with haste, DPS buffs does nothing for procs.</P> <P>And with Monks having a 50% chance to proc their hate over the 25% that bruisers have the hate gain is more stabile.</P><p>Message Edited by Dananeb on <span class=date_text>10-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

[djinnz]

<P>yeah and  the amounts are different bruiser 24% dps buff total, monks can buff there haste way in excess of this, wont pretend to know the figures or the down sides to those buffs, i know there are some though.</P> <P> </P> <P>my basic point is its all about perspective</P>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Dananeb wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Athenodorus wrote:Is there a benefit to haste over DPS? Not trying to be rude, I'm just a semi-newbie still and never heard of one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Proc rate improves with haste, DPS buffs does nothing for procs.</P><P>And with Monks having a 50% chance to proc their hate over the 25% that bruisers have the hate gain is more stabile.</P><p>Message Edited by Dananeb on <span class=date_text>10-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Considering 25% comes with Extra Damage to add to aggro, I barely see it as more stable. On the other hand, 100% self-haste (I wish was in tanking mode)Easily? Offensive stance + health burning M1's, yes... FBSS if you still carry around one or some new Haste items that Every class can get. But that never ever helps for tanking considering both fighter classes, not scouts.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>10-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 PM</span>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR>Athenodorus wrote:<BR>Is there a benefit to haste over DPS? Not trying to be rude, I'm just a semi-newbie still and never heard of one.<BR><BR><BR> <BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><BR>Proc rate improves with haste, DPS buffs does nothing for procs.</P><BR> <P>And with Monks having a 50% chance to proc their hate over the 25% that bruisers have the hate gain is more stabile.</P> <P>Message Edited by Dananeb on <SPAN class=date_text>10-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Considering 25% comes with Extra Damage to add to aggro, I barely see it as more stable. On the other hand, 100% self-haste (I wish was in tanking mode)<BR><BR>Easily? Offensive stance + health burning M1's, yes... FBSS if you still carry around one or some new Haste items that Every class can get. But that never ever helps for tanking considering both fighter classes, not scouts. <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>10-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The added DPS from from the hate proc is outdone easily by your 40% haste for life, last i checked my parses it was less than 2%(1.9% i think it was) of my total dps. Most CA's are above 2% of my dps. Considering these facts i would rather have a simple CA to hit over the dps from the proc. Also comsidering that my autoattack is about 20% of my total damage a self haste if not reached the cap is a significant improvement. Remember still that 1 point of damage = 1 hate, and tanking anything its about keeping the agro!.

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Ive been thinking about the DPS increases associated with "removing" the haste cap. As I understand it, the true haste cap, in relation to current day, will be 125%, assuming you actually have 200% haste stated in your persona screen, because of the bell curve. Or maybe it starts curving at 125%, giving you less and less increased benefit beyond 125. Im not sure which.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>It's important to note that if it is the bell curve, the true value of being at 125% of stated haste on your persona screen will be equivalent to what in reality? It certainly wouldnt be 125 if it's curving to 200. 100 wouldnt be 100 either. It's conceivable that 125% haste after expansion would be equivalent to 100% haste today. If that's so, there's no DPS boost.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>I used to think that getting beyond 125 started showing the lesser and lesser benefit, but recent discussions have made me wonder. Thoughts anyone?</FONT></DIV>

[Cirth_Beer]

<div><blockquote><hr>Supple a écrit:<div><font color="#cccccc">Ive been thinking about the DPS increases associated with "removing" the haste cap. As I understand it, the true haste cap, in relation to current day, will be 125%, assuming you actually have 200% haste stated in your persona screen, because of the bell curve. Or maybe it starts curving at 125%, giving you less and less increased benefit beyond 125. Im not sure which.</font></div> <div><font color="#cccccc"></font> </div> <div><font color="#cccccc">It's important to note that if it is the bell curve, the true value of being at 125% of stated haste on your persona screen will be equivalent to what in reality? It certainly wouldnt be 125 if it's curving to 200. 100 wouldnt be 100 either. It's conceivable that 125% haste after expansion would be equivalent to 100% haste today. If that's so, there's no DPS boost.</font></div> <div><font color="#cccccc"></font> </div> <div><font color="#cccccc">I used to think that getting beyond 125 started showing the lesser and lesser benefit, but recent discussions have made me wonder. Thoughts anyone?</font></div><hr></blockquote>I think the same thing, solo i can go to 96%haste (i dont have any haste item atm) when i eat my health, but they stated that 100% we have now = 125% in the future so to have the same haste than before i need to find 29%haste = a haste item so i consider it a bit like a nerf because i will loose dps, on the other hand in raid situation if in group with a haster i was caped at 100% (and didnt bother to see what was the supposed haste at this point)  so with eof in raid the dps linked to haste should be better if you are in the good group... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[lagerone]

<DIV>I play a 70 Bruiser and a 70 Monk.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruiser have higher burst damage (a lot) but in a long fight with 100% self haste a monk would actually do more damage, I have parsed both but not extensively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are really 2 significant gripes I have with monks:</DIV> <UL> <LI>the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] buff that gives 128 wisdom instead of 128 agi; that missing 128 agi hurts monk's ability to tank, and when you add the lack of a miti buff, yeah they are inferior in the tanking department, i respeced mine for a balanced AA line to compensate (ie less DPS)</LI> <LI>the self heal should be exactly the same as the bruiser heal, throw out the cast-on-others element, the weaker heal on the longer timer really is frustrating</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only real advantages monks have over bruisers are:</DIV> <UL> <LI>better dps on long encounters</LI> <LI>group feign death, neat but very situational and with a high fail rate</LI> <LI>tsunami, way too short a duration to be really useful</LI></UL> <DIV>I also think bruisers have better utility than monks with combo, close mind, and stone deaf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In summary, brawlers are fun classes to play but far weaker than they used to be (pre DoF).  I wouldn't recommend anyone roll one if they intended to raid, but if they were really set on the class just for fun, I definitely would say Bruiser before Monk.</DIV>

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Excellent post Lager. We dont get to hear from many 70 Bruiser/Monk 's. Im rolling a bruiser myself to test it, and I must say that I am starting to see the difference, not to say that I didnt expect to.</FONT></DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

So much confusion flying around for the upcoming haste changes...They've said that Haste and DPS will not be going on the same curve as stats will, and that the new "max" benefit will be 125%. That is the MOST you will get out of it, when your indicator show 200%.They also said that haste and dps will remain basically 1:1 ratio from 1-100%, after that it's on a decline so the 2nd 100% you get (from 101-200) will net make you go from 101-125%.Basically, everything above 100% will be reduced to a quarter. It'll take 4% to increase your actual amount by 1%.As for mitigation buffs and healthdraining abilities, here's the comparison...Bruisers get a 1300 mitigation buff (<b>health draining</b>), 3 min up, 3 min down.... Monks get a 544 (??) mitigation buff that only roots them, 30s up, 30s down.Bruisers get a massive mitigation buff that stuns you, 30s up, 2min recast (or something like that), insta cast... Monks get the same thing, but 3s cast instead.Bruisers get a high damage, backstab attack that dazes for 1s or so, 60s recast.... Monks get at the same level their 40% (??) Haste buff (<b>health draining</b>), on as long as they want (??).You know how you guys talk about that Haste buff while in tank mode? Well it's the same thing with the 1300 mitigation, only the mitigation helps with keeping the damage down... however it's not without cost.And especially with the differences in mitigation meaning less and less after the 4000 mark at lvl 70... the Bruiser's mitigation for health will mean we are sitting in the nerf zone when it's up... ie, not as useful as it was before the update. So we'll still be losing a % of our health (the health cost goes up when I get more HP, it's nasty looking when raid tank buffed)... but the mitigation "extra punch" is going down.On the flipside, while our backstab attack basically sits the same, your Haste buff will become more valuable as you'll be able to go over the 100% haste mark and still get benefit.The best us Bruisers can get is 24% DPS, and whatever Item haste we can lay our hands on (25% from Deathtoll item?). I don't think there's a way to stack 175% haste onto one character at this time... you'd need a Zerker, Monk, Fury, Inquisitor and Troub all stuffed into your group, and even then.. I'm not sure that's enough, let alone we're assuming it all stacks.I do agree though, your stunned mitigation should be insta cast... or at the very least we should be equal, and something useful.<div></div>

[WaachBack]

<DIV>I also have a 70 Bruiser and a 70 Monk.</DIV> <DIV><BR>What I have noticed from playing both of them is that the bruiser has the upper hand in the tanking AND DPS department. The <EM>only</EM> area in which the monk pulls ahead a little is in the utility department.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, bruiser > monk. My buriser will usually parse 300+ higher then my monk in almost any given situation. He also is able to off tank adds much easier then my monk thanks to the mit buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In order to balance both of these classes, SOE would have to give monks a little more in the tanking / mit department.</DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

After the fix avoidance, then if Tsunami was fixed to actually work I could see Monks doing very well.Right now, boosting mitigation really high is broken.. and they plan on fixing it. It's hard to say what exactly Monks will need in comparison to Bruisers with a new mechanic on it's way.<div></div>

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Raidi, you cant say the monk haste buff is comparable to the bruiser mit buff. The comparison would be to the bruiser dps buff. And I would trade my 40% haste buff for your 24% dps boost any day of the week. Seriously. And I'll tell you something else. I'm going to keep a close eye on the next level cap increase. Right now, I have 100+p in masters spent on my monk so there's no betraying. When the next level cap comes out, Im sticking with adept1's and no class specific gear until I'm satisfied this bruiser favoritism has not carried through. For if it has, I will switch classes. Takes about 3 hours to switch.</FONT> <FONT color=#cccccc>I have a 22 bruiser that Im leveling just to confirm everything I'm hearing, and already I'm seeing the distinction. Normally you have to get to T5 first to start seeing the differences.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Supple on <span class=date_text>10-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:12 AM</span>

[djinnz]

<DIV>interested about the statement about the bruiser out damaging the monk by 300dps in any given situation. against heroics with groups i can see this. but in raids or against solo targets i just cant say i see that with comparable toons. what i see is bruisers doing more against groups monks against solo mobs, which is where i always thought it was ment to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>300dps seems such a huge figure, maybe my bruiser isnt the best, in a standard group a lil buff here and there he goes between 700-1000dps, with the perfect group and going all out if the fight doesnt last to long and if it against a group can do some amazing spike dps, but very situational. i cant think of any monk even badly equipped one that im grouping with that parses and average of 400-700dps a fight. that would be less than most other tanks and if it is the case monks have alot more to worry about than bruisers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supple wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Raidi, you cant say the monk haste buff is comparable to the bruiser mit buff. The comparison would be to the bruiser dps buff. And I would trade my 40% haste buff for your 24% dps boost any day of the week. Seriously. And I'll tell you something else. I'm going to keep a close eye on the next level cap increase. Right now, I have 100+p in masters spent on my monk so there's no betraying. When the next level cap comes out, Im sticking with adept1's and no class specific gear until I'm satisfied this bruiser favoritism has not carried through. For if it has, I will switch classes. Takes about 3 hours to switch.</FONT> <FONT color=#cccccc>I have a 22 bruiser that Im leveling just to confirm everything I'm hearing, and already I'm seeing the distinction. Normally you have to get to T5 first to start seeing the differences.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Supple on <SPAN class=date_text>10-16-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:12 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The monk haste buff i think he is referring to is the group haste monks get (swift calm). Now the disparity in dps can come from the fact that bruiser CA's are VERY variable in min to max dmg, while the monk CA's are higher min and lower max dmg. This creates a equal average but when people look at each art they only look at the max damage not the minimum and average.</P> <P>Now what CA and buff compares the best to what will always be debatable, overall i think we are very equal with the exception of one buff, the spirit line. But with the changes coming up i bet this will be changed in one way or the other!</P>

[wil]

my thoughts on the bruiser vs monk argument:swift calm (group haste) vs group dps - i don't know if this is the case at all levels, but the M1 bruiser buff in t7 gives 24% dps versus 21% haste from swift calm.  in my opinion these should be even.tanking - yes bruisers have an edge.  its fairly lopsided as is at the moment, the skin like... buff series doesn't come close to comparing to the 3m mitigation buff.  yes it drains hp, but if you are tanking you are also being healed.  what nobody mentions about the skin like buff is that it drains power instead of health, leaving less power for taunts and combat arts (ie, less agro), not to mention the 3 second casting times on both of our mitigation buffs makes all the difference while tanking.overall dps - in my experience (i have raided extensively with 3 different bruisers), with the right group monk or bruiser can do about the same dps.  variation should come from masters and individual skill.  one of the bruisers i very much enjoyed raiding with edged me out most of the time, but there were occasions where i could outdo him.  others i have been able to outdamage by large margins.<div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<div><blockquote><hr>Supple wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div><font color="#cccccc">Raidi, you cant say the monk haste buff is comparable to the bruiser mit buff. The comparison would be to the bruiser dps buff. And I would trade my 40% haste buff for your 24% dps boost any day of the week. Seriously. And I'll tell you something else. I'm going to keep a close eye on the next level cap increase. Right now, I have 100+p in masters spent on my monk so there's no betraying. When the next level cap comes out, Im sticking with adept1's and no class specific gear until I'm satisfied this bruiser favoritism has not carried through. For if it has, I will switch classes. Takes about 3 hours to switch.</font> <font color="#cccccc">I have a 22 bruiser that Im leveling just to confirm everything I'm hearing, and already I'm seeing the distinction. Normally you have to get to T5 first to start seeing the differences.</font></div><p>Message Edited by Supple on <span class="date_text">10-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:12 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Eh? Two problems...First, I didn't compare the haste buff to the mitigation buff. I compared the mitigation buff with the other mitigation buff. The only part I even came close to bringing them on any similar level was the health drain, and even then only to show how there's a cost in there somewhere. Mitigation will be less effective after the update, yet the cost remains the same. I'd wait until after the update to see if Bruisers are still the be-all end-all tanking brawler...Second, there's already a group haste buff to compare to the group dps buff. Don't forget that you have what... 3 sources of haste? Offensive stance, health drain buff, and group buff. Bruisers have only one single dps buff, the group version.And I already did directly compare the 40% haste/health drain buff with the CAs Bruisers get at the exact same level... which IS a combat CA (backstab high damage attack).<blockquote><hr>willd wrote:<div></div> <div></div>swift calm (group haste) vs group dps - i don't know if this is the case at all levels, but the M1 bruiser buff in t7 gives 24% dps versus 21% haste from swift calm.  in my opinion these should be even.<hr></blockquote>Except that +DPS is not as effective as +Haste. Haste increases your damage through attacking more, <b>as well as</b> increasing your number of procs. DPS <b>only </b>increases the damage you do with your autoattack.If DPS actually increased your proc damage, then I could understand having it more equal... but that's simply not the case.You can see this throughout other classes. Coercer +DPS is higher than Illusionist's +Haste for the same reason.</div>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supple wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Raidi, you cant say the monk haste buff is comparable to the bruiser mit buff. The comparison would be to the bruiser dps buff. And I would trade my 40% haste buff for your 24% dps boost any day of the week. Seriously. And I'll tell you something else. I'm going to keep a close eye on the next level cap increase. Right now, I have 100+p in masters spent on my monk so there's no betraying. When the next level cap comes out, Im sticking with adept1's and no class specific gear until I'm satisfied this bruiser favoritism has not carried through. For if it has, I will switch classes. Takes about 3 hours to switch.</FONT> <FONT color=#cccccc>I have a 22 bruiser that Im leveling just to confirm everything I'm hearing, and already I'm seeing the distinction. Normally you have to get to T5 first to start seeing the differences.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Supple on <SPAN class=date_text>10-16-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:12 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Eh? Two problems...<BR><BR>First, I didn't compare the haste buff to the mitigation buff. I compared the mitigation buff with the other mitigation buff. The only part I even came close to bringing them on any similar level was the health drain, and even then only to show how there's a cost in there somewhere. Mitigation will be less effective after the update, yet the cost remains the same. I'd wait until after the update to see if Bruisers are still the be-all end-all tanking brawler...<BR><BR>Second, there's already a group haste buff to compare to the group dps buff. Don't forget that you have what... 3 sources of haste? Offensive stance, health drain buff, and group buff. Bruisers have only one single dps buff, the group version.<BR>And I already did directly compare the 40% haste/health drain buff with the CAs Bruisers get at the exact same level... which IS a combat CA (backstab high damage attack).<BR><BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> willd wrote:<BR> swift calm (group haste) vs group dps - i don't know if this is the case at all levels, but the M1 bruiser buff in t7 gives 24% dps versus 21% haste from swift calm.  in my opinion these should be even. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><STRONG>Except that +DPS is not as effective as +Haste. Haste increases your damage through attacking more, as well as increasing your number of procs. DPS only increases the damage you do with your autoattack.</STRONG><BR><BR>If DPS actually increased your proc damage, then I could understand having it more equal... but that's simply not the case.<BR><BR>You can see this throughout other classes. Coercer +DPS is higher than Illusionist's +Haste for the same reason.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You get a very nice additional proc on your mixed and offensive stances in place of monk stance haste that considerably increases your DPS/hate gen/raw# of procs.  If I am not mistaken, the proc can fire off of CAs as well, something which haste has zero effect upon.  I'd say we are on a pretty even footing with stances.</P> <P>It is really tough to measure the health burn skills since they help in opposite situations.  If I use the haste while tanking, I may hit the mob more (allowing me to do more damage and generate more hate), but the extra damage done is not enough to offset the health drain on top of damage spikes.  The bruiser mit buff smoothes out damage spikes and allows a healer to keep up with the damage you take over the course of the fight.  The issue in a tanking situation is how much healing your healer can do at any given moment when you take a damage spike rather than shortening the fight because the healer runs out of power.  The flip side is that, while dpsing, the haste buff is a huge benefit that your group's healer (or even group regen buffs) can easily keep up with, while the bruiser mit buff is all but useless (nice for the occasional physical aoe).  So, in one way they are balanced overall, but monks feel they get the short end of the stick there since we are tanks before dps.</P> <P>I raid with a comparably equipped bruiser (the difference being he uses the str line and i use dw weaps with an average dr of 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  We are almost always in the same melee dps group due to our complimentary buffs.  I usually beat him on the overall parse for the evening, but he can beat me on any given encounter he wishes to because of that one art that adds to CA damage for 20 seconds.  If he uses that and then spams all of his CAs, he'll out-dps me by 200-400.  The longer the encounter, the more of an advantage I have.  I still usually parse  a bit higher overall since he can only use that CA on an avaerage of 1/3 of the encounters during the raid.  As was stated above, bruiser CAs have a higher max and lower min damage, so we avaerage the same, but there are fluke nights when he gets lucky and just ends up doing 100 or so dps more than me overall due to getting higher max damage numbers and more crits.</P> <P>Overall, I think bruisers have a slight edge on dps, but nothing that upsets me too much.  It is the tanking advantage that frustrates me.  Hopefully the rebalance and system changes will rectify this without any other tinkering.</P>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bladewind wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>You get a very nice additional proc on your mixed and offensive stances in place of monk stance haste that considerably increases your DPS/hate gen/raw# of procs.  If I am not mistaken, the proc can fire off of CAs as well, something which haste has zero effect upon.  I'd say we are on a pretty even footing with stances.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Lets compare stances then, Monk master 1 offensive stance 41% haste, bruiser 10% chance to proc 424 -707 fire damage. Now lets assume that the user of these effects cannot max their haste, its not a tough choice what would be the better effect.</FONT></P> <P>It is really tough to measure the health burn skills since they help in opposite situations.  If I use the haste while tanking, I may hit the mob more (allowing me to do more damage and generate more hate), but the extra damage done is not enough to offset the health drain on top of damage spikes.  The bruiser mit buff smoothes out damage spikes and allows a healer to keep up with the damage you take over the course of the fight.  The issue in a tanking situation is how much healing your healer can do at any given moment when you take a damage spike rather than shortening the fight because the healer runs out of power.  The flip side is that, while dpsing, the haste buff is a huge benefit that your group's healer (or even group regen buffs) can easily keep up with, while the bruiser mit buff is all but useless (nice for the occasional physical aoe).  So, in one way they are balanced overall, but monks feel they get the short end of the stick there since we are tanks before dps.</P> <P>I raid with a comparably equipped bruiser (the difference being he uses the str line and i use dw weaps with an average dr of 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  We are almost always in the same melee dps group due to our complimentary buffs.  I usually beat him on the overall parse for the evening, but he can beat me on any given encounter he wishes to because of that one art that adds to CA damage for 20 seconds.  If he uses that and then spams all of his CAs, he'll out-dps me by 200-400.  The longer the encounter, the more of an advantage I have.  I still usually parse  a bit higher overall since he can only use that CA on an avaerage of 1/3 of the encounters during the raid.  As was stated above, bruiser CAs have a higher max and lower min damage, so we avaerage the same, but there are fluke nights when he gets lucky and just ends up doing 100 or so dps more than me overall due to getting higher max damage numbers and more crits.</P> <P>Overall, I think bruisers have a slight edge on dps, but nothing that upsets me too much.  It is the tanking advantage that frustrates me.  Hopefully the rebalance and system changes will rectify this without any other tinkering.</P><FONT color=#ffff00>Like is said before, bruiser CA's have a wider spread in damage compared to monks, this can show as higher damage sometime and lower at other times, The KO combo skill is a VERY nice skill, but you need to have all your skills up (meaning prepared for it) for it to have any effecienty, hardly ever can it be used as a snap agro tool since when you do loose agro not that many skills are genereally up and ready to be used.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The new mitigation / avoidance should fix the few dispareties that are between monk and bruiser tanking.<BR>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Um haste does increase proc amounts. </DIV>

[AndrewSquared]

Does not increase procs for CA's. Haste has no affect upon CA's.

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AndrewSquared wrote:<BR> Does not increase procs for CA's. Haste has no affect upon CA's.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And +Dps has no effect on CA's, where are we going with this?

[Supp]

<P><FONT color=#cccccc>Every time I read these arguments, this is what I observe...</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>There's a bunch of monks pointing out why bruiser dps is better</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>There's a bunch of monks pointing out why bruiser tanking is better</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>There's a bunch of bruisers giving out detailed answers as to why monk's are equal to bruisers</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>There are many monks with bruiser envy</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Monks agree that both classes will be better after expansion, but the rift wont change.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Very little credence is given to the monk's complaints</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>A quick visit over to the bruiser boards yields little-to-no monk envy.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>So you have to ask, why would a bruiser want the gap closed? This isnt a flame against bruisers, or an attempt to point out deception, it's just common sense. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>I ran some numbers on my upcoming dps increase with the new 200% cap coming with this expansion...</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>From 1-100% haste, nothing will change.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>From 101-200%, haste operates on a curve where 200% is equivalent to an actual 125%, or 1% for every 4% of actual haste.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>With the best of everything, a monk can self buff to 124% after the expansion.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>So, that is actually a 6% dps boost for my monk, assuming Im fully mastered.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>And you must consider, that's autoattack only. If autoattack is 40% of my overall dps, that actually translates into an overall 2.5% DPS increase for my monk. WOW!!!!!! Yeehaw. You see, that's what Im talking about. I calculate current bruiser dps to be about 20% better than that of monks. Again, we will only be nipping at your heels. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>Now let's talk about the closing of the tanking gap due to mit changes. From the way Im reading it, I will have the same mit then that I have now, only the mobs will hit less hard. At 4K, the diminishing returns starts occuring. I figure monks and bruisers pretty much have the same mit without that wonderbuff, somewhere around 3500 currently for a great tank, 3800 if you're amazing. Beyond 4K, each additional point offers less overall survivability, so this will be felt on the plate end far more than the brawler end. If you turn on your buff, and youre sitting at 5K, you're still wayyy better off than a monk without that buff. The gap is lessened yes, but it's still massive. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>So, I calculate no appreciable change in the brawler imbalance. Outside of brawlers, awesome change. Within the brawler class, yet more of the same. One of us is supposed to be better DPS, while the other better at tanking. That is the hybrid that creates the existence of the brawler. So why are there two if one does both better?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>One more thing. Wardens and Furies have had a similar problem for a long time, though it's harder to put your finger on. In a short fight, either is great, but the fury gets an advantage because of the dps. Over a long fight, the warden is superior (healing), but it's quite the arthritic experience. So you cant say a warden is broken, but you can say something is not right. You can arguably say that druids were lied to about their dps. It's furies with the dps, and it ticks off the wardens. I have played both at 70, so that's how I know. And what I noticed in the Warden boards is lots of Fury envy, and lots of furies telling wardens there's nothing wrong. Yet on the fury boards, there is no warden envy.</FONT> <FONT color=#cccccc>Does that sound right to you?</FONT></P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>I was on a raid with another Bruiser just the other day. He was fully mastered, nearly fully fabled with excarnate and a few key relic. He had both Calamities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have 2 masters, 2 adept 3s, and the rest adept 1s. I have broker-bought legendary gear at best, mastercrafted jewelry and my MoA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>His AA's were spec'd with Int/Sta with defense in mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mine are spec'd Str/Sta/Int 4, 4, 8... well, almost, my Sta is only 4, 4, 5 atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was outdpsing him throughout the whole night. Usually 300+ DPS.. more if I was using Knockout Combo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh.. and he had the haste buff in his group. I had just a zerker giving me his buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He admittedly said himself he wasn't sure of his own CA chains, had lower Strength because of resists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Strength line, Strength score, and doing the right CAs in the right combination can mean a MASSIVE difference in DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's no way you can just come up with a "20% difference between Bruiser and Monk DPS" when you can see two BRUISERS having as wide a margin or more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh.. and the Monk on the raid was outdpsing me <EM>every single time.</EM></DIV>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AndrewSquared wrote:<BR> Does not increase procs for CA's. Haste has no affect upon CA's.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And +Dps has no effect on CA's, where are we going with this?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your stance proc (which has a high %chance and very high damage) can fire from CAs as well as autoattacks.  That makes up for the increase in other procs that monks see from haste, as haste has zero effect on our CA damage.  In fact, we are so hasted that in many cases we are losing autoattack damage unless our CAs are perfectly-timed.  I think the stances are balanced very well - not trying to say either side is unbalanced there.   I also agree with you that the combat chnages should bring the tanking issue into balance.  I think the problem here is that some of the less informed people on both sides of the debate are arguing about current issues and ignoring the fact that everything is going to change in a few weeks.</P> <P> </P> <P>PS Gimme KO Combo for one day to play with <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Supp]

<P><FONT color=#cccccc>Raidi, as I say, Im rolling a bruiser. Now this bruiser is comparatively young, so I'm really only looking at CA's. Since the equipment and AA's are the same, that's a fair way to judge it. Further evidence for me, is the boards reference I made earlier. It's strikingly like that of the druid disparity. My fellow wardens told me "Dont come crying to us when wardens become better than furies!". That's was 6 months ago. Nothing's changed. /sniff.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>Yes, I have beaten bruisers too. But if I were a bruiser, I would be beating my old monk self. As you know, there is more to this class than spamming CA's, but I see that way too much nevertheless. I wont keep arguing with you, and I'm glad you're a happy camper. But I do personally know that SOE does not always think these things through, and sometimes takes forever, if ever, to fix them. Ultimately, they released a betrayal to satisfy people like me. But I'm gonna hold off on that in case things turn around. After all, class specific AA's are about to be released.</FONT></P>

[AndrewSquared]

<P>Sorry, thought I read someone trying to say that +haste affects CA's.</P> <P>On a side note, how do you quote someones post previously (other than copy and paste) so you know exactly who you're responding too.</P> <P>Similar to how Dananeb did with mine maybe.</P> <P>Oalu, Monk</P>

[selch]

Let's talk about Debuffs too while at it:50 C/S/P debuff of Bruiser vs 15.8 Defense debuff of Monks...Makes me laugh a lot... 50 C/P/S could save a lot to me as tank, decreasing mobs accuracy... 15.8 defense is what? 1.9% avoidance debuff... 1.9 "avoidance(!)" (We all know how avoidance working <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) .if 50 Defense, it should be worthwhile a "tiny" bit.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>10-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:15 AM</span>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AndrewSquared wrote:<BR> <P>Sorry, thought I read someone trying to say that +haste affects CA's.</P> <P>On a side note, how do you quote someones post previously (other than copy and paste) so you know exactly who you're responding too.</P> <P>Similar to how Dananeb did with mine maybe.</P> <P>Oalu, Monk</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Look for the <IMG src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/global/post_quote.gif"> Icon above the box you type in.

[AndrewSquared]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AndrewSquared wrote:<BR> <P>Sorry, thought I read someone trying to say that +haste affects CA's.</P> <P>On a side note, how do you quote someones post previously (other than copy and paste) so you know exactly who you're responding too.</P> <P>Similar to how Dananeb did with mine maybe.</P> <P>Oalu, Monk</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Look for the <IMG src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/global/post_quote.gif"> Icon above the box you type in.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Awesome, thank you.</P> <P>Oalu, Monk<BR></P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bladewind wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supple wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Raidi, you cant say the monk haste buff is comparable to the bruiser mit buff. The comparison would be to the bruiser dps buff. And I would trade my 40% haste buff for your 24% dps boost any day of the week. Seriously. And I'll tell you something else. I'm going to keep a close eye on the next level cap increase. Right now, I have 100+p in masters spent on my monk so there's no betraying. When the next level cap comes out, Im sticking with adept1's and no class specific gear until I'm satisfied this bruiser favoritism has not carried through. For if it has, I will switch classes. Takes about 3 hours to switch.</FONT> <FONT color=#cccccc>I have a 22 bruiser that Im leveling just to confirm everything I'm hearing, and already I'm seeing the distinction. Normally you have to get to T5 first to start seeing the differences.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Supple on <SPAN class=date_text>10-16-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:12 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Eh? Two problems...<BR><BR>First, I didn't compare the haste buff to the mitigation buff. I compared the mitigation buff with the other mitigation buff. The only part I even came close to bringing them on any similar level was the health drain, and even then only to show how there's a cost in there somewhere. Mitigation will be less effective after the update, yet the cost remains the same. I'd wait until after the update to see if Bruisers are still the be-all end-all tanking brawler...<BR><BR>Second, there's already a group haste buff to compare to the group dps buff. Don't forget that you have what... 3 sources of haste? Offensive stance, health drain buff, and group buff. Bruisers have only one single dps buff, the group version.<BR>And I already did directly compare the 40% haste/health drain buff with the CAs Bruisers get at the exact same level... which IS a combat CA (backstab high damage attack).<BR><BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> willd wrote:<BR> swift calm (group haste) vs group dps - i don't know if this is the case at all levels, but the M1 bruiser buff in t7 gives 24% dps versus 21% haste from swift calm.  in my opinion these should be even. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><STRONG>Except that +DPS is not as effective as +Haste. Haste increases your damage through attacking more, as well as increasing your number of procs. DPS only increases the damage you do with your autoattack.</STRONG><BR><BR>If DPS actually increased your proc damage, then I could understand having it more equal... but that's simply not the case.<BR><BR>You can see this throughout other classes. Coercer +DPS is higher than Illusionist's +Haste for the same reason.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You get a very nice additional proc on your mixed and offensive stances in place of monk stance haste that considerably increases your DPS/hate gen/raw# of procs.  If I am not mistaken, the proc can fire off of CAs as well, something which haste has zero effect upon.  I'd say we are on a pretty even footing with stances.</P> <P>It is really tough to measure the health burn skills since they help in opposite situations.  If I use the haste while tanking, I may hit the mob more (allowing me to do more damage and generate more hate), but the extra damage done is not enough to offset the health drain on top of damage spikes.  The bruiser mit buff smoothes out damage spikes and allows a healer to keep up with the damage you take over the course of the fight.  The issue in a tanking situation is how much healing your healer can do at any given moment when you take a damage spike rather than shortening the fight because the healer runs out of power.  The flip side is that, while dpsing, the haste buff is a huge benefit that your group's healer (or even group regen buffs) can easily keep up with, while the bruiser mit buff is all but useless (nice for the occasional physical aoe).  So, in one way they are balanced overall, but monks feel they get the short end of the stick there since we are tanks before dps.</P> <P>I raid with a comparably equipped bruiser (the difference being he uses the str line and i use dw weaps with an average dr of 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  We are almost always in the same melee dps group due to our complimentary buffs.  I usually beat him on the overall parse for the evening, but he can beat me on any given encounter he wishes to because of that one art that adds to CA damage for 20 seconds.  If he uses that and then spams all of his CAs, he'll out-dps me by 200-400.  The longer the encounter, the more of an advantage I have.  I still usually parse  a bit higher overall since he can only use that CA on an avaerage of 1/3 of the encounters during the raid.  As was stated above, bruiser CAs have a higher max and lower min damage, so we avaerage the same, but there are fluke nights when he gets lucky and just ends up doing 100 or so dps more than me overall due to getting higher max damage numbers and more crits.</P> <P>Overall, I think bruisers have a slight edge on dps, but nothing that upsets me too much.  It is the tanking advantage that frustrates me.  Hopefully the rebalance and system changes will rectify this without any other tinkering.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I love when people make comments w out any idea. Tell me how often a proc will go off when its based on delay when most of our combat arts have 0.5 sec delay. </P> <P>Ok ill tell you. the offensive stance proc has been parsed on the bruiser boards and you know what it comes out to a whooping 1-3% of our dps depending on haste. I am quite sure that 100% haste comes out to more then a 1-3% dps increase. especial since auto atk is mroe then 40% of brawler DPS.</P>

[Azazel-Defia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bladewind wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR><STRONG>Except that +DPS is not as effective as +Haste. Haste increases your damage through attacking more, as well as increasing your number of procs. DPS only increases the damage you do with your autoattack.</STRONG><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I love when people make comments w out any idea. Tell me how often a proc will go off when its based on delay when most of our combat arts have 0.5 sec delay. </P> <P>Ok ill tell you. the offensive stance proc has been parsed on the bruiser boards and you know what it comes out to a whooping 1-3% of our dps depending on haste.<STRONG> I am quite sure that 100% haste comes out to more then a 1-3% dps increase.</STRONG> especial since auto atk is mroe then 40% of brawler DPS.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I love when people make comments without any idea.</P> <P>I am quite sure that 100% haste = more than 1-3% dps increase also, but since my offensive stance doesnt say "Increases haste by 100%" I dont see how it matters.</P> <P>If you did bother to look at the effect of the 2 stances in a normal group or raid- you would realize that (until expansion- la de da) the monk offensive stance probably had the same +dps % effect as having the warden +C/P/S buff on. I could turn my offensive stance off and still reach haste cap in normal groups, a well balanced raid group makes it easy.</P> <P>I guess the bottomline is that the proc buff ALWAYS provides some advantage or chance to proc. The extra haste often is wasted. Especially considering the nicest monk weapons are dual wield and there is really only 1 truly incredible two hander.</P> <P>After the expansion this will change, a haste buff on a monk will provide 1/4 the benefit of a haste buff cast on another class... maybe CAs will even become obsolete since the missed auto attacks result in much better damage output.</P> <P>I know that the promise of higher haste cap seems like a great thing. It isnt, it is a gimmick. A normal raid will still have the same number of haste buffs available, casting them on monks so that they can get the limited return over 100% would be a waste. The cast and recovery time for CAs will still cause you to have "dead space" in your auto attack times. The number of auto attacks you can achieve in between the "dead space" will still be limited. Sony has done the calculations and has probably realized that overall raid DPS will not change an unbalancing amount. I would think a 5% overall change in DPS from going 100% - 200% haste would be generous.</P> <P>Az</P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>Autoattack still goes off during recovery times. It's just the cast times that it won't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it didn't go off during recovery times, then chaining CAs would make it so you didn't autoattack at all during the whole thing.</DIV> <DIV>There was a bug a little while back where that exact thing DID happen... but they quickly fixed it because melee DPS noticed a 20-30% drop in their damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the offensive proc. I've seen it go off about once or twice in a fight, on average. So for a whopping 400-800 damage I'm getting from offensive, you are getting a 40% boost to haste, which increases not only the largest portion of your damage (autoattack), but also increases the frequency of all the procs you DO have. I'm sure you can get more than 2 extra procs from that 40% in the fight, let alone how much more autoattack damage you are doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for reaching your max... since monks in offensive can hit their max <EM>on their own,</EM> it would be rather silly to put them in a raid group that gives haste to begin with. In every raid that has had any min/maxing to it, Monks have been placed where they can benefit from +DPS. The hasters go and buff other folks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it's only as "Wasted" as your raid buffs are "mismanaged". I know not everyone can be in the perfect raid setup.. however it's usually not too hard to place a Monk in a group that doesn't waste his haste. Not unless you have a weird raid situation (I was in a naerly casterless 24 person raid before, so I admit, it is possible... just not the normal).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV>Raidi I can agree with your basic premise. It is possible to group monks in a raid so that you can take advantage of their haste ability. By that same logic, any class can be placed in a group to achieve 100% haste and 100% dps- as long as you dont mismanage your buffs and raid set up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In practice, how many coercers can 1 raid have? To my knowledge, the coercer offers the best single target DPS increase and no haste components. Everyone else offers both haste and DPS or a combo buff that can do both. Regardless, there are 1000s of combinations and we can pick out as many as we want. The point of my statement was, haste "can" be wasted and often is. In perfect group set ups, with 100% haste and 100% DPS, the proc buff is still useful and can add increased damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you dont often find yourself in a raid group where you pick up the extra 80ish % haste required to bring you to 100% (wearable haste items) while giving you 80ish % DPS buffs, you can understand how I dont often find myself in a group that can give me 100% dps buffs without dumping 40-60% haste on me I dont need.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the effects of haste over 100% on auto attack damage- I am sure you can understand the concept of wasted attacks. Monks have been fighting wasted attacks since t5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I currently have a 1.2 delay Bonetooth Skewer, 100% hasted to .6 delay. If I can time it perfectly, the auto attack will go off in between every one of my .5 sec CAs. That means I have to give a .1 sec window between each CA and use nothing over .5 sec cast time to get the maximum auto attacks from this weapon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would argue, that if I was hasted by 125%, lowering the delay from .6 sec to .45 sec will have almost 0 effect on the number of autoattacks I can manage between CAs. I will still wait .5 sec while casting, if I wait .1 sec between CAs I will still only Auto 1x.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every weapon has a break even point, I would argue that the Bonetooth Skewer actually has already been reached since I doubt I can time things as perfectly as outlined. That was my point in the discussion about haste cap increases resulting in lower dps increases than expected.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Az</DIV>

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV>I did want to point out that I dont care if Bruisers are able to get a change in their offensive stance that gives them a little more effectiveness. I dont care if Bruisers out DPS me by 10-15% or so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do think that most bruisers can <U>already</U> out DPS me by at least 10-15% if haste and dps are at equal levels. The point of this thread was a question of what different players thought was needed to balance the 2 classes. I think DPS potentials are decently balanced. I only responded to a post that caught my eye and went off topic a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is not balanced is tanking ability and self buffs. If that was balanced- so monks have a sustained 10-15% advantage in damage absorption/avoidance- the other issues wouldnt even be brought up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the OP. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think balancing the brawler classes could be done by...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>___ like Mountain abilities-</DIV> <DIV>Pick one negative, root or power drain not both.</DIV> <DIV>Increase the mit gain. 1500 + would work</DIV> <DIV>Change timers to make it sustainable for entire encounters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stone/Bouldering Stance</DIV> <DIV>Instacast</DIV> <DIV>Instacast</DIV> <DIV>Instacast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mend</DIV> <DIV>Would like a slight adjustment, but less important than the mit stance issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuff</DIV> <DIV>Why do monks get an offensive debuff and bruisers get a defensive one? Thats just strange and couter intuitive. I honestly think it was done because some dev liked the name he came up with for the bruiser line and thought it sounded to bruiserish to give to monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The type of debuff isnt necessarily a balance issue just a strange observation. The fact that the bruiser one is so much more effective is off, both skills cap at the same level, so the debuff should be similar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks should get a defensive debuff, but again thats just an observation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS</DIV> <DIV>Bruisers should have a 10-15% advantage. I think they have it if buffs properly managed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before someone says that changes like these could make monks better tanks than bruisers... I hope they do make that change. I already stated monks should be 10-15% better at damage input while bruises are 10-15% better at damage output. Just my opinion and I could be totally off. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks could be intended to be smurfing along until they get smurfed because everyone else is totally smurftastic by design. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hell, if someone would just actually come out and say that clearly I would shut up and stop torturing my poor monk by having expectations of him and hoping for some class satisfaction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Az</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[selch]

<DIV>So let's compile, shall we?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Adding defensive abilities to monk (either mitigation buff timered in similar fashion, making same abilities EQUAL not insta cast vs 3.0 seconds cast)</DIV> <DIV>- Improving debuffing abilities (at least 50 c/p/s debuff vs 50 defense debuff --not 15.9 defense debuff)</DIV> <DIV>- Improving healing abilities (or adding self heal) , healing other should have 1 penalty, not two (percentage and reuse timer currently)</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>- Making haste & dps buffs equal  not 21% vs 24% or whatever math says on parses to equivalise them</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Both brawlers needs "Disruption" on their fast cast CA's (punch & kick) , we were doing fine till our stuns are replaced, reduced in duration. Now only fighter classes that does not have any disruption beside "common" encounter taunt.</DIV> <DIV>- Both brawlers needs passive aggro gaining ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>