Incase you missed it... Brawlers will be reborn..

[selch]

Finally having our roles more clarified <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194" target=_blank>New Combat Changes</a>

[Kainsei]

Finally !! I can't wait to try it. Caps raised, mitigation gain balanced = party time !! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>We will see what difference it makes.  Im really hoping it does work out but im not yet convinced withoutmore information than has been posted so far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the moment  raid buffed Guards for example already have quite close avoidance compared to us then we have miti compared to them. lowering the effect of both at higher levels will mean we gain a small amount regards to miti but lose a significant amount of avoidance to make up for it. especially as they are reducing both base deflect and base parry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<P><SPAN><EM>Avoidance Skill</EM></SPAN></P> <UL> <LI><EM><SPAN>Skill caps have increased from [ 1 * Level ] to [ 1.5 * Level ]</SPAN> </EM> <LI><SPAN></SPAN><EM><SPAN>Base Parry chance has been lowered from 10% to 5%</SPAN> </EM> <LI><SPAN></SPAN><EM><SPAN>Base Deflection chance has lowered from 30% to 25%</SPAN> </EM> <LI><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><EM>Increases to avoidance skills now have diminishing returns similar to the changes made for mitigation/resistance. Players experience more gains in avoidance when further away from the cap, and less gains as they reach closer to the cap</EM></SPAN></LI></UL> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>I'm sorry, but... how is this an improvement other than the 1.5 thing?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>IMO, if they want to make Avoidance useful, then they need to change it so that instead of having an avoidance value of 72.5% equalling a 30% chance for the attack to miss, 22.3% chance to deflect, and 20% chance to parry, they need to make 72.5% equalling a 72.5% chance for the attack to miss.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Thats just my oppinion. Maybe I'm not understanding the technical jargon of some of these changes.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:53 PM</span>

[Bladewind]

It lowers the emphasis on mitigation while keeping avoidnace about the same.  Whether it is actually effective or nto depends entirely on their rebalnce of mob damage output.  I'm happy that the issue between avoid and mit is at least recognized and being worked on.  As Selch posted in the thread, in addition to the balancing of mob damage output, the scaling of mit/avoid magnitude relative to level between the player and the mob should also be looked at.  That is what is killing brawlers currently when trying to tank yellow or higher cons.

[selch]

Incase you might have missed it Cussahorn, they are also changing mobs.Currently unavoidable CA's and also more accuracy to ignore avoidance is going away...

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Which means no more Critical hits for 30,000 by Hammer Fist when I pull in Lab. Thats good at least.</DIV>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<DIV>Which means no more Critical hits for 30,000 by Hammer Fist when I pull in Lab. Thats good at least.</DIV><hr></blockquote>LOL, yeah, that means Tsunami will work again relatively... (or at least while in combat mode <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

[Coriantum]

<P>cusahorn is right to a point the overall 80% cap never changed. The amount needed to reach the cap changed. The new mitgation cap is 10,500 and the avoidance cap is alot higher for parry and deflection.</P> <P>In essence they just made it so rogues can reach the 4k mitigation and 40% avoid curve easier. anything beyond that is a minimal differnce. seriously think about it brawlers were not passing the deflection and parry skill cap as it was. We barely passed met it. We normally sat around 4k mitgation. This basically is a nerf to those who are able to reach the cap in mitgation and avoidance. last i checked we didnt have the problem. </P> <P>BUT this change did foreshadow a major benefit to us. The removal of NPC's ability to 1 shot us w super hard hits and the + attack mobs were given to ignore avodiance. </P> <P>BUT even with that change warriors are still able to get ~70%. They dont use deflection so they won't get nerfed by that so inessence thier avodi will only go down by the curve set to parry. And rogues will still have equal avoid (which will become more effecitive) and better rmitgation.</P> <P>So tell me how is this a benefit to us. Its a step in the right driection, but don't let the sugar coating fool you. You still getting cough drops, because we are still not fixed.</P> <P>< BTW this is GUNGO</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>so let me recap for you. parry and deflection get nerfed. Both hits to brawler avoid. only 1 hit to warrior avoid<BR>mtigation above 4k gets hit. No change to brawlers since 4k is the breakeven point, big change for plate, but they still will havemroe mitigation then brawlers.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>The one change that benefits monks is the 125%  breakeven and 200% haste cap. Which means monks shoudl be doin substantial dps increase. Big problem again is the haste dps cap is not a rolling cap which means as buffs increase (past this tier)and items give more haste this problem will again be seen. (possibly next tier) its a quick fix to a bigger problem the exponential increase of using % based spells.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Coriantum on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 PM</span>

[selch]

Point is Gungo,Now it will be harder for plates to go higher in Avoidance. Why am I telling this?All those we have lived (being one-shotted, avoidance being ignored) etc. will go away. Now avoidance will be avoidance as it is written there. (TO-HIT values are being removed, so each melee hit regardless of mob tier, will be passed through avoidance rolls)It may look like a nerf who hit 4K mitigation in brawlers, but not. Mitigation / Avoidance is now being "normalised" by soft capping. No, it is not a nerf to itemization, since stats caps are being raised, value of a fabled will still be much valuable to reach health / power other stats.What you are possibly missing is 4.5K mitigation is already maxed mitigation for brawlers. 4K is not the cap nore best, it will go growing on mitigation with every more mitigation on item, but not be as gapped as today.We will not be hitting 70-80% values in avoidance in many setups, may be.. But in raids avoidance was already extinct.

[Coriantum]

<DIV>How is it harder for plates to reach a higher avoidance?</DIV> <DIV>Parry and deflection is being normalised on a higher spread. Thats 2 hits to brawler avoid 1 hit to warrior crusader.<BR>The initial bonus for deflect nad parry is being hit. Thats  2 hits to brawlers 1 to warrior/crusader.<BR>protection the warrior/crusader opposite to deflection is not gettign hit.</DIV> <DIV>It was always easier for a warrior to cap parry if anything this makes use of that extra parry (possibly defense a guard had) over a brawler.</DIV> <P>O yeah eventually the + to hit named recieved will be removed. But that benefit is universal to all. Don't let what seems to be a bone fool you rogues and plates will benefit more. I see this change benefiting rogues and warriors the most.  </P> <DIV><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Coriantum on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:42 PM</span>

[selch]

I can presume, you will see no more than 40% avoidance "solo" on any plate tank, which can reach 60% today "solo"...Think it that way... They are making it like a scale (as it should be at first): As mitigation goes higher, avoidance will go lower, Avoidance go higher, mitigation go lower without class independency.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:02 PM</span>

[Coriantum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR>I can presume, you will see no more than 40% avoidance "solo" on any plate tank, which can reach 60% today "solo"...<BR><BR>Think it that way... They are making it like a scale (as it should be at first): As mitigation goes higher, avoidance will go lower, Avoidance go higher, mitigation go lower without class independency. <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>09-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your presuming with nothing to back it up.. btw the sole change to parry will not decrease warriors avoidance by 20%, but the doubel whammy to parry and deflection may lower brawler actual avoid by 20%.  But don't take just my word for it. Look at the feedback coming out now alot of other people have the same doubts i see.  Rogues being alot more suitable to offtank, legendary tanks being more effecient compared to fabeld tanks, increases to melee dps (scouts now with 125% haste dps cap and possible 200% diminishing cap) with decrease to caster dps (int spread further equals harder to hit the max damage cap).<p>Message Edited by Coriantum on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:29 PM</span>

[selch]

I doubt it will drop Brawler avoidance.Remember it is curve now...Not like 70% - 20% = 50% anymore...

[Coriantum]

<DIV>what don't you understand abotu the changes ?</DIV> <DIV>the overall cap is still 80% avoid.</DIV> <DIV>previously brawlers were given a base delfection of 30% and parry of 10% ... Now its 25% and 5% respectivly</DIV> <DIV>right off the top brawlers loose 10% avoid from what u see today. While warriors and crusaders onl receive a 5% drop</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Previously skill capped at 420 for parry and deflection. while obtainable w the best fabled and  tank group we were able to.</DIV> <DIV>Now caps are 50% further away for both parry and delfection i would expect at least another 5% from each. So while brawlers may recieve another 10% reduction warriors may only see another 5% reduction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets ad the  totals up shall we 10+10= 20% reduction to brawlers  5+5= 10% reduction to warriors and crusaders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How again are we benefiting from these changes mroe then anyone else?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to say the haste cap then i agree. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Coriantum on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>Gungo you are silly.  Either that or you're being obtuse on purpose.</P> <P>Brawlers in particular gain a lot from these changes.  Since most fabled brawlers are between 3200 and 4000 mitigation, none of them should lose mit, but they will gain a substantial amount of mit.  Also the variances in mit are changing toward the median/bottom level of the curve so a brawler with 4000 mit vs a warrior with 6500 mit will not be the ridiculously huge difference that it is today.  It will simply be a few percent at most.</P> <P>Sure we'll lose some avoidance, but the avoidance that we retain will actually work.  No more overpowered mobs that have all kinds of accuracy and damage bonuses because they won't need it.  They won't be going up against warriors who are neigh unkillable unless the mob is orange with the ability to one shot them.</P> <P>So if I have to lose a few % of avoidance in order for the avoidance I have to actually work, I'm all for it.</P> <P>There is no way, at all, that this is a nerf to brawlers.  Its silly that you think so.  We stand to gain a lot with these mechanic changes, so if you guys don't understand them its probably best to not post about them.</P>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>Gaige has it exactly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Biggest problem for us today - names that never miss and hit like Mack trucks falling from great heights.  Why do those names exist?  Because plate classes could easily hit 80% mit and at or near 80% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By RAISING the caps on both avoidance and mitigation considerably and making it very difficult to hit the caps, they can nerf the mobs -- make them hit less hard and without the accuracy bonuses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They also lowered the base parry and deflect skills, which, presuming they balance all MoBs in the game for the new lowered values, HELPS us a lot, since it increases the effectiveness of our enhanced skills and 360 avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, recap:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Less difference between our mitigation and that of plate classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. More chance for us to separate ourselves from base avoidance values.  (Due to both lowered base and increased caps.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. MoBs (particularly names) without crazy to hit values and monster one shot damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is our wish list folks.  Have some champagne.</DIV>

[Danan]

<DIV>Now listen all, the most fun we are going to have with this is..... To watch it unfold on the Guardian boards :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Cirth_Beer]

humm i'll wait to see how it is implemented and how it will change my monk life to see if i must rejoice or cry ^_^<div></div>

[JudyJudy]

<P><EM>This is the best news I've heard concerncing my class - EVER.  The fact that the devs took the time to let us know prior to EoF is just icing on the cake.</EM></P> <P><EM>Keep in mind many of you young, new brawlers - This is indeed what Gaige and many others have fought for, for the past 2+ years.</EM></P> <P><EM>Kudos to you, the faithful brawler community:  I couldn't be more excited.</EM></P>

[Illustrious]

<DIV> <HR> <P>This is the best news I've heard concerncing my class - EVER.  The fact that the devs took the time to let us know prior to EoF is just icing on the cake.</P> <P>Keep in mind many of you young, new brawlers - This is indeed what Gaige and many others have fought for, for the past 2+ years.</P> <P>Kudos to you, the faithful brawler community:  I couldn't be more excited.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>How is this what Gaige has been "fighting" for for 2+ years?</P> <P> </P> <P>Almost every post i have seen Gaige post in reply to peoples moans that avoidance tanking is broken for top end raiding goes almost exactly like this:</P> <P> </P> <P>"Avoidance tanking works and i have tanked almost every top epic encounter in game"</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway</P> <P>Personally i am hoping for big things tanking wise from these changes, but from what i have read so far it seems that scouts will be as good or better tanks than us brawlers, especially monks with our lower miti.</P> <P> </P> <P>All i want to see is (100 - Miti%) x (100 - Avoid%) to equal roughly the same for all tanks (assuming avoidance is working properly on the quoted % figures with no stupid to hit stuff like we have now). Even if that does happen then avoidance tanking will still be the hardest for healers due to the luck factor of a run of bad rolls but at least it will be fair and tbhi dont even want parity of tanking i just want to be in the same ball park. However due to the extra nerf of avoidance that we get  over and above what everyone else gets, i.e deflection is also being lowered as well as parry then as things stand now i would think that there will still be a big difference in that formula depending on class. I am hoping to be proven wrong but i suspect only time will tell.</P></DIV>

[Harpax]

<DIV>"Avoidance tanking works and i have tanked almost every top epic encounter in game"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That sounds like a pre-KoS statement hehe.</DIV>

[Morrolan V]

<P>A few points.</P> <P>1. As to scouts tanking better than us, that should not be the case.  At the high end, their mitigation should be well into the "diminshing returns" area, where ours will be more in the middle.  That will reduce the effective separation in mitigation between us.  (Same goes for us and plate tanks, only moreso.)</P> <P>2. Aavoidance -- remember that base avoidance is higher for us leather wearers.  By reducing the base values for deflect and parry, they have further INCREASED the importance of the differentiation between leather avoidance and chain/plate avoidance.</P> <P>3. Your equation, Illustrious, is correct as far as it goes.  Damage taken over time = (1-Mitigation) x (1-Avoidance).  However, that equation does not explain all of our "survivability" in a fight.  As we all well know, given the random nature of avoidance against the very steady and predictable nature of mitigation, the experience of tanks and their healers is very different.  Mitigation tanks take damage in smaller chunks, more slowly.  This is easier to heal and less subject to a spike that can insta-kill the tank before the healers can react.</P> <P>So, in order to have things be "equal" those tanks with lower mitigation need to have their (1-Mitigation) x (1-Avoidance) equation equal something higher than those tanks with higher mitigation.  SoE has acknowledged this in the past.</P> <P>Where they got away from this was, with the caps too low and end-gamers living at the caps all the time, you had a bunch of warriors running around with both their mitigation and avoidance maxed out.  They had to balance the end game around that.  The rest of us, who couldn't ever max out mitigation, were screwed.</P> <P>It appears that the Devs understand this and these changes are intended to fix it.</P> <P>4. I am concerned about the implementation of these changes.  Player damage output isn't really being changed at all, but players' ability to absorb and avoid damage is being majorly nerfed, at least at the high end.  This will mean that the MoBs' damage output (for virtually every MoB in the game) will have to be adjusted as well.  I think it will be very difficult for them to get this right, and, rather than make it so that everyone and his sister can suddenly take down Tarinax, they are likely to miss high, at least initially.</P> <P> </P>

[Prodigus]

Thanks for reposting this.  I tend to only visit server/monk boards so I would have missed this till the patch notes lol.  Looking forward to it!-prodigus<div></div>

[superdave]

My head hurts from this update. I understand our role will increase which is great dont get me wrong i am loving it. I mean i look at as a whole. this will hurt raiding guilds like mine. Why because lets say your mt mit raid buff is 6400 with new rules it be like tanking those mobs at 5700. am i missing something. we need look at this as a whole not just our class because last time i looked a monk couldnt solo deathtoll. I probably missing something so please go ahead and explain.

[Morrolan V]

<P>That shouldn't happen, Dave, IF they do the changes right.</P> <P>They have acknowledged that they need to nerf the damage done by epic names to account for these changes.  Whether they get that right or not, as I posted above, is another question.</P>

[Lalerin]

This is all very good news for me, and I am looking forward to see how it all pans out as they implement it.Its good to see that they have been listening to what the brawler community has been saying.<div></div>

[Coriantum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>Gungo you are silly.  Either that or you're being obtuse on purpose.</P> <P>Brawlers in particular gain a lot from these changes.  Since most fabled brawlers are between 3200 and 4000 mitigation, none of them should lose mit, but they will gain a substantial amount of mit.  Also the variances in mit are changing toward the median/bottom level of the curve so a brawler with 4000 mit vs a warrior with 6500 mit will not be the ridiculously huge difference that it is today.  It will simply be a few percent at most.</P> <P>Sure we'll lose some avoidance, but the avoidance that we retain will actually work.  No more overpowered mobs that have all kinds of accuracy and damage bonuses because they won't need it.  They won't be going up against warriors who are neigh unkillable unless the mob is orange with the ability to one shot them.</P> <P>So if I have to lose a few % of avoidance in order for the avoidance I have to actually work, I'm all for it.</P> <P>There is no way, at all, that this is a nerf to brawlers.  Its silly that you think so.  We stand to gain a lot with these mechanic changes, so if you guys don't understand them its probably best to not post about them.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am being obtuse on purpose becuase many see this as the big brawler fix which i don't see it anywhere near as. <BR>At 4k mitigation we niether see a difference in lose or gain or actual mitgation value as that is the break even point.<BR>Yes i agree the difference of a 6.5k mitgation tank and a 4k brawler tank will be narrowed, but they will still be better.<BR>My issue with the changes is strictly with the avodiance changes. It helps ALL PC's. Thats fine the problem is rogues and warriors can obtain substantial avodiance. With the nerf to base Deflection (brawler Only) and base Parry. Our avodiance will drop sunstantially. Tied to the fact warriors and rogues can alreayd achieve high avoidance (~70%) with half the nerf (no deflection nerf to them). not only will warriors and rogues have higher mitgation, but  equal avodiance. Thats my issue.</P> <P>Yes they may remove the + to hit on NPCs and avodiance will work, But it will work for everyone. And as such we will be less of tanks compared to warriors and rogues. Anyway you look at it the numbers, hit us more. <BR><BR>It gets worse when you look at the which classes here well beyond the caps before this update. Brawlers were hard pressed to pass most caps (other then haste). You as well as anyone knows how hard it was for a brawler to achieve 420 in parry/deflection/defense gaige. How Hard it is for a brawler to achieve 80% avoid and no where near 80% mitgation. <BR></P> <P>Warriors (guaridans in particular) were well beyodn the defense cap (guard has a defense buff), guardianswere well beyond the parry cap (thier avodi buff adds parry and dirge = beyond cap), guardians were well beyond the 6k mitigation cap, so much so thier short duration mitigation buffs did little to reduce dmaage. Now Guard will take a decent hit to thier actual mitgation% But it will still be well beyond any brawler. Both guardians short duration mitigation buffs will actual be useful and noticeable now. All the while both guards and rogues will still have ~60% shown avodiance (70% previosuly shown minus the 5% parry base reduction and the reduction due to the cpa being raised) Brawlers who previously had ~80% avoidance take a direct 10% hit to avoid ( due to the base reduction of parry and deflection). 70% + the reduction to parry and deflection as the cap is now raised. Which will prolly equal another 10%. <BR></P> <P>yes i am extremey skeptical of these changes because it does not help the disparity of bralwer tanks. What this change will ultimatly do is make avodiance mroe effective. But the difference of avodiance between brawlers and rogues/warriros will be minimal. While the mtigiation differnece will be substantial still. These are good changes but they are no where good enough to "Fix" the brawler issue. </P>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Coriantum wrote: <P>At 4k mitigation we niether see a difference in lose or gain or actual mitgation value as that is the break even point.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Good thing most brawlers are around 3500ish even fully fabled, which means they will gain mitigation.  Couple that with the gaps narrowing and hooray, we're already more survivable and we haven't even considered avoidance that works better and works against all types of mobs, even epic named.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short you're worried because you don't understand.</DIV>

[Bladewind]

<P>He brings up a good point with base deflection, a brawler only stat, being reduced.  That is a double whammy for us.  We'll have to see how it shakes out in the end.  Overall, it will be an improvement no matter what, but, with our unique stat that gives us our advoidance edge taking a rather large hit, our relative advantage in avoidance over both plate tanks and rogues will be reduced sharply.  Unless block takes the same hit, then I am not so worried.  Since it is the avoidance that the other tank classes use in place of deflection, the avoidance reduction will be closer to a global one than if only brawlers had two contributing factors reduced while everyone else only had one.</P> <P>Also, could we please drop the insults and childish name calling here?  This community is better than that.</P>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>Gungo, what you are missing is that, because warriors will no longer be able to cap both their mit and avd, these changes will make it unnecessary for epic names to have huge accuracy bonuses and incredible one shot damage.  THAT is what will fundamentally make it possible for brawlers to tank end game content.</DIV>

[Coriantum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Coriantum wrote: <P>At 4k mitigation we niether see a difference in lose or gain or actual mitgation value as that is the break even point.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Good thing most brawlers are around 3500ish even fully fabled, which means they will gain mitigation.  Couple that with the gaps narrowing and hooray, we're already more survivable and we haven't even considered avoidance that works better and works against all types of mobs, even epic named.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short you're worried because you don't understand.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>4k today is the same as 4k tommorrow after 4k the return now diminishes. If you fail to read or understand another persons argument that is not anyone fault but your own. I read your post there is nothing new or enlightening about it. I understand quite well the changes being implemented. If you feel you have such a vast graps on the changes then please enlighten us with what you know because clearly the  numbers stated otherwise do not reflect your opinion. I say opinion because thats all you have given so far.<BR>

[Coriantum]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morrolan V wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gungo, what you are missing is that, because warriors will no longer be able to cap both their mit and avd, these changes will make it unnecessary for epic names to have huge accuracy bonuses and incredible one shot damage.  THAT is what will fundamentally make it possible for brawlers to tank end game content.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I understand the accuracy bonus is bound to go away. I also understand the accuracy bonus removal helps anyone tanking. What i also understand is that while warriors will still have higher mitgation (whether its as beneficial today or not) they will have as high or equal avoid due to the doubel nerf to deflection and no reduction to block(protection value). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You act as though the removal of accuracy will only benefit brawlers i assure you it will not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is simple the new uncapped mitigation vs the new double nerfed avodiance value will not even out. If i was you i would expect rogues will equal avoidance and higher mitigation. Btw guards where never able to reach 80% avoid. In fact the only class able to reach 80% avoid/mit was a bruiser. using the 3 minute buff, but now brawlers get a double nerf to avoid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fully raid geared i was sitting at 420 parry 414 delfection (need matron pants) and 426 defense in raid MT group w ~6k(80%) mitgation and 80+%avoid.</DIV> <DIV>The guard in same group was sitting at 430+ parry 1402 protection (unchanged) and 430+ defense, w 6.4 mitgation (without using 2 short term mitgation buffs) and 70% avoid. Who again does raising the caps help the most. To me it seems the guard is the one well beyond the current caps.</DIV> <P>I could be wrong maybe its a typo and instead base deflection will not be reduced. Defense should also be normalised to a higher cap which would effect all classes equally. If those 2 changes were made i would't see a major problem with these changes and how they adversly affect brawlers.</P><p>Message Edited by Coriantum on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:30 PM</span>

[Shankonia]

<P>I like the changes personally.  I just hope it works well, and scales appropriately between the various tank classes.  Still don't see any love for the Paladin.</P> <P>As far as brawlers are concerned, pending these changes really help us, our primary concern should be how the EQ2 community views the changes and views us in our future state.</P> <P>We know the Guards will take notice, the bigger question is will everyone else?  I truely hope so.</P> <P> </P> <P>Shangortu</P> <P>Kithicor </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coriantum wrote:<BR> 4k today is the same as 4k tommorrow after 4k the return now diminishes. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You. Aren't. Listening.</P> <P>I understand that, but the point is most brawlers can't reach 4k buffed (not counting the 3 min bruiser buff).  So most brawlers won't be losing anything as far as mitigation goes.  Plate tanks however will be losing mitigation.  They are also shifting the "longevity" scale of mitigation from 5k+ to below 4k so increases in mitigation below 4k relate to longer longevity.</P> <P>Seriously... why are you arguing with me?<BR></P>

[Cyngii]

An item that has been touched on, but overlooked by a lot is even though our displayed avoidance will drop due to lowering base deflecting and parry, our actual in game avoidance will increase. Is it truly 75% avoidance when there are unavoidable combat arts? With those going away, that right there means good things for us... With the diminished returns setup on mitigation, it makes a lot more people viable tanks (even say as an example the non uber equipped guardian). The uber guild "MT" will still have an edge i would think, but the differences between he/she and others should be drastically reduced. Less short duration Mit buffs like Spirit like Mountain a well equipped main tank buffed monk will be where??? 4000ish mit +/-? That basically puts us right at the break even point. Like Gaige said, the difference between that point and say 6500 mit could be as low as 5-10% difference in absorbed damage. I just find it funny that they release this info right after i vented my frustrations with our class... I feel better now. Let's just hope it get's implemented right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Untalent]

Step in the right direction... I'm happy.<div></div>

[Supp]

<P><FONT color=#cccccc>     My head definitely hurts. Ive read every post, trying to understand. Im trying not to give Gaige too much credibility because even though he has a knowledgable rep and is writing some promising posts, I dont wanna get all excited over a nerf in disquise. So let me sum up the highlights, and you tell me if I've got it right...</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Self-buffed, my monk is at 3200 mit, and looking to be about 3500ish when I get the rest of my gear. I honest dont see how I could get better than 3500 currently, so let's just say 3500 is current monk cap. So I will effectively be autoboosted by 500 mit to meet this new 4K mit break even point?</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>I honestly havent tried that hard to maintain a high level of avoidance since concentrating on defl and parry gear cost me mit and str, and because avoidance didnt seem to work that well. Regeared, in def stance, Im sitting at about 65% solo. It seems I will be dropped to 55% in def with the changes? But that's ok because my avoidance will actually work more effectively? I guess it's the "more effectively" point that Im not following too well. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>I can see the obvious nerf to current plate tank effectiveness vs brawlers, at least in the short term, in relation to mit. It would seem though that plate tank avoidance, which is usually not that much less than mine, will be about equal to mine because they are being hit less. Is this a way to give something back to the plate tanks, who are being rendered less effective after the change? When the level cap goes to 80, our happy-go-lucky 4K mit selves will start getting mushed again by those diminishing returns, which will now affect us. I have nothing to back this up, but I firmly believe that monks will get a mit sublcass AA bonus. Perhaps at 70, we will be affected, yet already by the diminishing returns.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>If haste were not capped, I would have 119%. If I get an Everburning Blaze master, I guess I'll get another 5%. This will give me a noticeable overall dps boost if the cap goes to 200%, with the breakeven being 125%. 23% is the best haste gear you can get, for now. So to me, this is a nice upgrade, but only in the short term.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Exactly how are rogues/assassins being hurt by any of this? Are they benefitting from the feud of the plate tanks vs the brawlers? It seems so. And they sure dont need any boosts.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Am I correct in ascerting that the problem of yellow con mobs being a problem in the scaling of mit vs avoidance still exists? It seems it does. </FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>     My conclusion is that brawlers will be significantly more survivable as tanks, for now. We'll get a noticeable, but not big, dps boost due to the haste cap increase. Im presuming that no bruisers out there are solo-reaching the current DPS mod cap, even with the STR AA line. I appreciate everyone's opinions. Thanks in advance for any responses.</FONT></P>

[Tyrion]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now listen all, the most fun we are going to have with this is..... To watch it unfold on the Guardian boards :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ha ha, this change doesn't bother me too much. Diminishing returns are diminishing returns, but the difference between 4K and 6K mit will still be there, and will be noticeable enough that Guardians will still be preferred MT. And it should always be that way.</P> <P>But it'll be awesome to see my guild monks and bruisers kicking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and actually tanking some of the harder named raid encounters that they would normally keep away from with a 100 ft pole. If it all works out, I'll be really happy for you guys, as the tanking field will narrow quite a bit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Illustrious]

<P>I am still dubious about the implementation, and i am concerned that we get a double hit taken from our avoid (parry and deflect) while everyone else only losses parry and not block as well.</P> <P>However on the plus side, as long as im not going to get 1 shotted on a regular basis when i end up tanking some of the harder hitting mobs like Bloodbeast and Tarinax for example i will still be a lot happier. I mean for instance last night on tarinax we had only 1 Plate tank on so i ended up dual tanking with him, with 4.6k Miti i had 2 hits on me of over 12k auto attack. I had about 12.5k HP at 100% but both times they hit me i wasnt at 100% of course so ended up dieing, that chang alone makes the update worth while for me.</P>

[Mala-Shea]

<DIV>Believe me fellow brawlers, we are getting exactly what we [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed for. Making 4K break-even mit gives us a chance to tank/mitigate dmg effectively. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the most important change is the avoidance fix...at least our class, since thats how we are to roll. A bit of a decrease in 2 checks, in exchange for an over-all avoidance that actually works?!?!? Are some of you that are skeptical just plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lemme shoot a hypothetical out there...imagine a n00b that has to choose between two fabled rings for his last ring slot...one has a 30% dps increaser...the other has 2 more str. points....but he puts his other ring on because it has 2 more str points....sound [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? Indeed. This is the bomb for us, baby! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Embrace your change with merriment and glee! Or face a hairy fisting from Sasquatch himself!</DIV>

[Morrolan V]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dananeb wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now listen all, the most fun we are going to have with this is..... To watch it unfold on the Guardian boards :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ha ha, this change doesn't bother me too much. Diminishing returns are diminishing returns, but the difference between 4K and 6K mit will still be there, and will be noticeable enough that Guardians will still be preferred MT. And it should always be that way.</P> <P>But it'll be awesome to see my guild monks and bruisers kicking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and actually tanking some of the harder named raid encounters that they would normally keep away from with a 100 ft pole. If it all works out, I'll be really happy for you guys, as the tanking field will narrow quite a bit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks, Tyrion.  On the whole, the Guardian community has been very mature and realistic about this change.  It's nice to see us coming together as tanks!<BR>

[Kasai]

<div></div>I'm kinda confused with this whole thing.  This is what I have seen so far after reading.So basically, for monks:*******avoidance is being nerfed in a sense but on the account that avoidance didn't work on epics anyway, it kind of looks like this:           normal mobs- worse avoidance (the value showed was the correct value for these mobs so by dropping it would drop them the most)           heroic mobs- slightly worse avoidance (Heroic mobs were more accurate than what was shown for avoidance values so a slight drop)           raid mobs-much better avoidance (Avoidance was so bugged vs raid mob its not even explainable...big increase here)******Mitigation will be increased because of the curve favoring below 4k mitigation.                        the difference between monk vs. plate tank mitigation will be narrowed because of hte deminishign return after 4k.If someone could explain this to me it would be very nice.<p>Message Edited by Kasai259 on <span class=date_text>10-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 PM</span>

[selch]

Kasal259:Normal Mobs: We see exact / close number of hits avoided by us to our avoidance number in persona window.Heroic Mobs: We still see exact / close number of hits avoided by us in persona window. However they hit (ofcourse) much harder and have Combat Arts that we can't avoid.Heroic Named Mobs: Serious drop in our avoidance here. They have high to-hit values, they miss us less, we got hit hard / more frequent, our avoidance in total might be less than 1/3 of our avoidance in some cases. Even there is chance to avoid auto-attacks of mobs, you can't avoid Combat Arts.Trash Raid mobs: Avoidance is still visible, however, close to Heroic Named Mobs section.Raid Boss Mobs: Avoidance is extinct. You can't avoid possibly any hit unless not directed at you. Mitigation will be increased because of curve favoring 4K mitigation, correctDifference between monk vs. plate tank mitigation will be narrowed, correctHowever, Same would be for avoidance. "Avoidance" difference between us and "any" plate tank will get narrowed, because we will loose our avoidance in diminishing returns (Hence guardians does not have much difference in avoidance with us anyway) But good side, whatever our avoidance will be after changes within diminishing returns, it will work same for any tier of mob. Which means, heroic, named, raid, raid boss mobs will not ignore avoidance and loosing their "accuracy" bonuses with mobs being adjusted to that.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>10-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 AM</span>

[Kasai]

so basically, the harder the mob gets, the bigger difference we will see when it comes to avoidance working.  That works for me.<div></div>

[Cyngii]

<blockquote><hr>Supple wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#cccccc"> My head definitely hurts. Ive read every post, trying to understand. Im trying not to give Gaige too much credibility because even though he has a knowledgable rep and is writing some promising posts, I dont wanna get all excited over a nerf in disquise. So let me sum up the highlights, and you tell me if I've got it right...</font></p><ul><li><font color="#cccccc">Self-buffed, my monk is at 3200 mit, and looking to be about 3500ish when I get the rest of my gear. I honest dont see how I could get better than 3500 currently, so let's just say 3500 is current monk cap. So I will effectively be autoboosted by 500 mit to meet this new 4K mit break even point?</font></li>Keep in mind you are talking about "self buffed"... once you're in a group environment with a healer and a support class odds are you'll be over 4k mit. Say you're at 3500 mit, you won't get "autoboosted" to 4000... you'll still be at 3500. The point is 3500 will be more meaningful since the amount of mit gained from say going from 5000 to 5500 doesn't have as big of an impact as say going from 3500 to 4000. Due to the existing linear Mit system, they had to beef up NPC damage so that guardians with 6500+ mit could take serious damage.... the problem with this was everyone that didn't have 6500+ mit were getting [Removed for Content]. So something key to remember is that NPCs (across the board (?) ) shouldn't be hitting as hard anymore as their won't be a need to have named that can theortically hit for 20k+.<li><font color="#cccccc">I honestly havent tried that hard to maintain a high level of avoidance since concentrating on defl and parry gear cost me mit and str, and because avoidance didnt seem to work that well. Regeared, in def stance, Im sitting at about 65% solo. It seems I will be dropped to 55% in def with the changes? But that's ok because my avoidance will actually work more effectively? I guess it's the "more effectively" point that Im not following too well. </font></li>If you read the boards you'll see numerous posts on how avoidance is "broken". Following the same reasoning as Mit, in order to make encounters "challenging" lots of NPCs were givin specail to-hit bonuses essentially making a lot of attacks unnavoidable. For classes that rely on avoiding attacks, that doesn't work that well (especially when you consider mitigation comes into play on those unnavoidable attacks). With unavoidable attacks going bye bye your avoidance is now a more meaningful/realistic number.<li><font color="#cccccc">I can see the obvious nerf to current plate tank effectiveness vs brawlers, at least in the short term, in relation to mit. It would seem though that plate tank avoidance, which is usually not that much less than mine, will be about equal to mine because they are being hit less. Is this a way to give something back to the plate tanks, who are being rendered less effective after the change? When the level cap goes to 80, our happy-go-lucky 4K mit selves will start getting mushed again by those diminishing returns, which will now affect us. I have nothing to back this up, but I firmly believe that monks will get a mit sublcass AA bonus. Perhaps at 70, we will be affected, yet already by the diminishing returns.</font></li>Per Gallenite's post, the mit cap will be based on 150xlevel, with the "break even" point being about 40% of that. When the level cap goes to 80, the mit cap will go up to 12000 and the break even point will be around 4800. With associated higher level gear/buff upgrades my thought is well geared monks will usually be around this "break even" point. As far as future achiements... I think it's hard to say at this point. Until we see how the new combat system works, for all we know +mit through achievements could be overpowering. I'm not sure if they would roll it out at the same time as the combat revamp. <li><font color="#cccccc">If haste were not capped, I would have 119%. If I get an Everburning Blaze master, I guess I'll get another 5%. This will give me a noticeable overall dps boost if the cap goes to 200%, with the breakeven being 125%. 23% is the best haste gear you can get, for now. So to me, this is a nice upgrade, but only in the short term.</font></li>Although it will have diminished returns, since we live above 100% already and so many current buffs are worthless to us this will be very nice.<li><font color="#cccccc">Exactly how are rogues/assassins being hurt by any of this? Are they benefitting from the feud of the plate tanks vs the brawlers? It seems so. And they sure dont need any boosts.</font></li>According to the official post regarding the revamp, survivability should increase across the board. I'm not sure if the changes are intended to "hurt" any classes but rather removing/reworking mechanics that essentially created significant class imbalances.<li><font color="#cccccc">Am I correct in ascerting that the problem of yellow con mobs being a problem in the scaling of mit vs avoidance still exists? It seems it does. </font></li></ul>Haven't really seen anything on this yet, but i'm sure a) scaling still exists but b) would hope the scaling of mit/avoidance would be fluid/consistent.<p><font color="#cccccc"> My conclusion is that brawlers will be significantly more survivable as tanks, for now. We'll get a noticeable, but not big, dps boost due to the haste cap increase. Im presuming that no bruisers out there are solo-reaching the current DPS mod cap, even with the STR AA line. I appreciate everyone's opinions. Thanks in advance for any responses.</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[Supp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cyngii wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supple wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>My head definitely hurts. Ive read every post, trying to understand. Im trying not to give Gaige too much credibility because even though he has a knowledgable rep and is writing some promising posts, I dont wanna get all excited over a nerf in disquise. So let me sum up the highlights, and you tell me if I've got it right...</FONT></P><BR> <UL><BR> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Self-buffed, my monk is at 3200 mit, and looking to be about 3500ish when I get the rest of my gear. I honest dont see how I could get better than 3500 currently, so let's just say 3500 is current monk cap. So I will effectively be autoboosted by 500 mit to meet this new 4K mit break even point?</FONT></LI><BR><BR>Keep in mind you are talking about "self buffed"... once you're in a group environment with a healer and a support class odds are you'll be over 4k mit. Say you're at 3500 mit, you won't get "autoboosted" to 4000... you'll still be at 3500. The point is 3500 will be more meaningful since the amount of mit gained from say going from 5000 to 5500 doesn't have as big of an impact as say going from 3500 to 4000. Due to the existing linear Mit system, they had to beef up NPC damage so that guardians with 6500+ mit could take serious damage.... the problem with this was everyone that didn't have 6500+ mit were getting [Removed for Content]. So something key to remember is that NPCs (across the board (?) ) shouldn't be hitting as hard anymore as their won't be a need to have named that can theortically hit for 20k+.</UL> <UL><FONT color=#3399ff>Ok, so you're saying we'll be in a sweet spot. I knew we'd have the same mit, hence the "effective" word usage, but I wasn't certain how much more effective that 3500 would be. Suffice it to say, 4K should be our mit goal, solo.</FONT><BR><BR> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>I honestly havent tried that hard to maintain a high level of avoidance since concentrating on defl and parry gear cost me mit and str, and because avoidance didnt seem to work that well. Regeared, in def stance, Im sitting at about 65% solo. It seems I will be dropped to 55% in def with the changes? But that's ok because my avoidance will actually work more effectively? I guess it's the "more effectively" point that Im not following too well. </FONT></LI><BR><BR>If you read the boards you'll see numerous posts on how avoidance is "broken". Following the same reasoning as Mit, in order to make encounters "challenging" lots of NPCs were givin specail to-hit bonuses essentially making a lot of attacks unnavoidable. For classes that rely on avoiding attacks, that doesn't work that well (especially when you consider mitigation comes into play on those unnavoidable attacks). With unavoidable attacks going bye bye your avoidance is now a more meaningful/realistic number.</UL> <UL><FONT color=#3399ff>This was an area of contention for me. If memory serves, Epics and named were given that special to-hit bonus mod. So I see the value of the "avoidance fix", but I still have trouble with non-named ^^^ whites and yellows when soloing. But then again, I'm supposed to.</FONT><BR><BR> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>I can see the obvious nerf to current plate tank effectiveness vs brawlers, at least in the short term, in relation to mit. It would seem though that plate tank avoidance, which is usually not that much less than mine, will be about equal to mine because they are being hit less. Is this a way to give something back to the plate tanks, who are being rendered less effective after the change? When the level cap goes to 80, our happy-go-lucky 4K mit selves will start getting mushed again by those diminishing returns, which will now affect us. I have nothing to back this up, but I firmly believe that monks will get a mit sublcass AA bonus. Perhaps at 70, we will be affected, yet already by the diminishing returns.</FONT></LI><BR><BR>Per Gallenite's post, the mit cap will be based on 150xlevel, with the "break even" point being about 40% of that. When the level cap goes to 80, the mit cap will go up to 12000 and the break even point will be around 4800. With associated higher level gear/buff upgrades my thought is well geared monks will usually be around this "break even" point. </UL> <UL><FONT color=#3399ff>This is an excellent point. Lets hope T8 gear is a significant upgrade.<BR></FONT><BR>As far as future achiements... I think it's hard to say at this point. Until we see how the new combat system works, for all we know +mit through achievements could be overpowering. I'm not sure if they would roll it out at the same time as the combat revamp. </UL> <UL><FONT color=#3399ff>It's just a hope, but I think they will.</FONT><BR><BR> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>If haste were not capped, I would have 119%. If I get an Everburning Blaze master, I guess I'll get another 5%. This will give me a noticeable overall dps boost if the cap goes to 200%, with the breakeven being 125%. 23% is the best haste gear you can get, for now. So to me, this is a nice upgrade, but only in the short term.</FONT></LI><BR><BR>Although it will have diminished returns, since we live above 100% already and so many current buffs are worthless to us this will be very nice.</UL> <UL><FONT color=#3399ff>Absolutely. And my two fabled dual wielders are currently at .6 and .8 second delays. This will be slick.</FONT><BR><BR> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Exactly how are rogues/assassins being hurt by any of this? Are they benefitting from the feud of the plate tanks vs the brawlers? It seems so. And they sure dont need any boosts.</FONT></LI><BR><BR>According to the official post regarding the revamp, survivability should increase across the board. I'm not sure if the changes are intended to "hurt" any classes but rather removing/reworking mechanics that essentially created significant class imbalances.</UL> <UL><FONT color=#3399ff>I really worded this as a point that rogues and assassins will be benefitting tremendously from the avoidance fix and mit upgrades that brawlers and casters really needed. I can only imagine what assassins will be able to do after this.</FONT><BR><BR> <LI><FONT color=#cccccc>Am I correct in ascerting that the problem of yellow con mobs being a problem in the scaling of mit vs avoidance still exists? It seems it does. </FONT></LI></UL><BR><BR>Haven't really seen anything on this yet, but i'm sure a) scaling still exists but b) would hope the scaling of mit/avoidance would be fluid/consistent.<BR><BR> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>My conclusion is that brawlers will be significantly more survivable as tanks, for now. We'll get a noticeable, but not big, dps boost due to the haste cap increase. Im presuming that no bruisers out there are solo-reaching the current DPS mod cap, even with the STR AA line. I appreciate everyone's opinions. Thanks in advance for any responses.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>