Rogues better DPS/tank than Monk?

[mr23sgte]

<DIV>Personally I'm tired of Tsunami not working correctly, being outtanked  and DPS'ed by Rogues. Anyone have any ideas that could help me? Sure Rogues are a DPS class - but cough -- if I am supose to be a tank, why do they tank better than me as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm currently 4/4/8 Stam, 4/4/8 Int, 4/4/8 Wis -- all masters accept 4 Adept 3 and mostly fabled gear except jewlery needs upgraded. Don't get me wrong, I can solo heroics ...blah blah    but feel pretty useless on raids except the occasional group FD. I can't save the raid by tanking -- can't debuff except my 1 litle AA, can't power regen, can't heal --I can't pull half the mobs b/c they 1 shot through Tsunami (yes I am engaged)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am hoping for either mit AA's or a necro type rezz or a debuff or something on next expansion..............or maybe a power regen off our haste auto attack. Throw me a freakin bone </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hereo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>70 Monk - Unrest</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by mr23sgte on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[selch]

I don't see future of Rogues well about tanking wise ( I mean really tanking, not being able to hold some shots)I wait for EoF, then future dark if disappointed...

[psubull]

Tsunami doesn't work for combat arts, thats the problem.  If it did, then a lot could change.  I currently have no problem dpsing in the 1300+es with the right group, and I'm altruism specced (4-4-4-8-8 agil, 4-4-5-8 int).  I take hits fine when I tank on raids for those brief moments I might grab aggro.I might agree with the first half of your statement, but rogues never tank in raid situations, and I do, and I'm a monk, so therefore monks have the capability to do so.  This is coming from a new monk too.  Literally started playing the class about a week ago when I betrayed.  You have the capabilities, just find them.<div></div>

[psubull]

did I mention its fun to see yourself on the heal parse when you land a heal for 5k?  That makes the healers say "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!"  <div></div>

[JudyJudy]

<P><EM>LOL :smileyvery-happy:</EM></P> <P><EM>Healing the MT ftw!</EM></P>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>psubullet wrote:did I mention its fun to see yourself on the heal parse when you land a heal for 5k?  That makes the healers say "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!"  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Enlighten me, but I did not find any relation about tanking vs. healing "MT". Is that a reason that we are "super in demand"(!) for raids? And if you are raiding as a monk:a.) Either you are in guild for brawler loot not to rotb.) Keeping a brawler safe for "brawler-tailored" encounters which might be possible and used in a few.We are not healers, are you by any chance in raid as healer? LOL, that would be pathetic, beside, you can't see those on parses eventually all healers will do much more Heal Per Second and I would rather have a healer than a 3 minute monk heal of 10 monks. Emergency actions that all players should do in required times, does not compansate anything OP mentioned. In many servers, guilds are booting their brawlers and SK's because they are just a placeholder atm, group FD? Heh, check Swashy AA line then... and for your previous post:If rogue has one more taunt than they currently have, believe me, they would use the Rogue instead of you, because in current state of the game, they can absorb 1.5x damage what you can absorb with very similiar avoidance (which can be ignored in raids anyway).<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 PM</span>

[Bladewind]

<P>As I level my brigand, I get more and more disturbed about the state of monk.  With a mitigation self-buff and chain armor, he has only about 10% less mit than a comparably-equipped plater of the same level and and about 40% more mit than a comparably-equipped brawler.  While dual weilding, his avoid is 45%, but that can be incresed greatly (5-10%) by equipping a round shield and shifting my AA points into stamina, which also gives a group taunt and a dps increase to compensate for wielding a 1-hander and a shield.  Basically, he has 140% of the mit and 85% of the gross avoidance of a brawler of the same level.  In addition, since he is a dps archetype, his damage output is considerably higher, even while in defensive stance with a 1 hander and a shield.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong, I love the notion of a rogue tank and I am not asking for rogue abilities to be stripped away.  What bothers me is how relatively gimped brawlers are to rogues as a tank class.  As the op observed, we do less dps since we are a fighter (i'm fine with that, i rolled a monk to be a tank as advertised), but now we can be easily out-tanked by rogues.  As has been said countless times, avoidance needs to be looked at as it utterly fails vs white con or higher mobs, and tsunami is broken.  The fatal flaw for us right now is that we simply do not have enough physical mit to reliably survive high end content, even with skilled healers and good group buffs/setup.</P> <P>However, I am not sure how I feel about another total revamp being foisted upon us.  Generally speaking, I really enjoy the current system.  Why not make a few simple changes to see if brawlers can fulfill their tanking role within the confines of the current system.  I would suggest 2 things:</P> <P>1) Add a small physical mitigation boost to the brawler base self buff (ie, outward calm/bob and weave).  I'm thinking something like 50 mit per tier.  This could also be a new buff that uses a concentration slot called 'body conditioning' or something.  Any practitioner of real world martial arts (myself included) has been through exercises designed to make their bodies tougher.  You'll find a makiwara in just about any dojo or a kung fu dummy in any temple.  The primary purpose of both of these is for the practitioner to harden their body parts through systematic self-bludgeoning.</P> <P>2) Greatly increase the mitigation boost from defensive stance for brawlers.  I would say at the very least double the current value (if the self buff has the minor mit increase), or triple the current value if the self-buff remains unchanged.  The purpose of this is to provide an isolated solution (brawler mit is way too low to function effectively) without imbalancing the system - ie sweeping changes to the mechanics of combat.</P> <P>This would put our mitigation on par with rogues while retaining our avoidance edge (as useless as it may be for now).  I think those two small changes would put brawlers back where they need to be on the tanking scale (ie, above non fighters) while not throwing other parts of the game out of balance (not nullifying plate tanks).  The mit issue could also be resolved with an AA line.  I really do not understand why one of our AA lines was not a body conditioning line that granted increased physical mit from the get-go.  I am making these suggestions from the standpoint of the current system and with the idea of being as least invasive as possible.</P>

[Disturbe]

<P>OMG, </P> <P>All i see is whining, lets up our mitigation to be that of a plate tank and increase our avoidance to something like 85-90% at least. Isn't that what u want. </P> <P>Came to the monk board cause i was thinking i might make a monk alt and everyone here is whining.</P> <P>I have a lvl 70 raid brigand with 5200 mitigation and 63% aviodace, i can tank epic x4s, i average 800-1000 dps on raids. At the same time i've seen monks average 1500 on raids, u have fd, last ditch mit buff rescue, group haste, etc.  I've even seen monks solo epic x2s only 12 lvl below them!?!?! how many other classes you know of that can do that? Monk are not [Removed for Content], just u as a player SUCK!!!!  LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CHAR!!!! </P> <P>As a brigand I'vr been out dps by monks, brusiers, berserkers, i've even seen dirges out parse me.</P> <P>Figure it out, it not your class..... ITS YOU!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Athenodorus]

Disturbed; had you bothered to read the above post, you would see that plate mitigation and 90% avoidance is far from what is being discussed. If avoidance tanking were fully functional (NOT insane like it used to be, but degimped) against heroic named and epics we probably would not be complaining at all. I am very new here as well, but that is what I get out of the discussion after some small experience and 2 minutes' time spent reading. <div></div>

[mr23sgte]

<P>I have seen a Rogue tank MOA4, so don't tell me they can't tank.</P> <P> </P> <P>Disturbed: so thanks for proving my point with your rant. Hell, Lower my DPS and give me your mit --I'M a TANK CLASS for CHRIST SAKE!  Your Rogues must suck in Raids, b/c rogues in our guild always out DPS the fully fabled/ DPS AA Monks.............you have evac, dispatch and more --- so don't try that utility B.S.  In order to achieve the high DPS we have to be in the most optimal group or we will only do 700-900 typically.</P> <P> </P> <P>I know how to play my class, but if you have a V W - no matter what the Porshe is always going to be faster.</P><p>Message Edited by mr23sgte on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:31 PM</span>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Disturbed3 wrote:<BR> <P>OMG, </P> <P>All i see is whining, lets up our mitigation to be that of a plate tank and increase our avoidance to something like 85-90% at least. Isn't that what u want. </P> <P>Came to the monk board cause i was thinking i might make a monk alt and everyone here is whining.</P> <P>I have a lvl 70 raid brigand with 5200 mitigation and 63% aviodace, <FONT color=#ffff00>i can tank epic x4s</FONT>, i average 800-1000 dps on raids. At the same time i've seen monks average 1500 on raids, u have fd, last ditch mit buff rescue, group haste, etc.  I've even seen monks solo epic x2s only 12 lvl below them!?!?! how many other classes you know of that can do that? Monk are not [Removed for Content], just u as a player SUCK!!!!  LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CHAR!!!! </P> <P>As a brigand I'vr been out dps by monks, brusiers, berserkers, i've even seen dirges out parse me.</P> <P>Figure it out, it not your class..... ITS YOU!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Then you are overpowered, my friend. Simple as that. Scouts tanking x4s is not right so enjoy it while you can.</FONT>

[Bladewind]

<P>It helps to take the time to read before criticizing.  I did not ask for any sort of avoidance increase.  Neither did I ask for plate tank mit.  I asked for mit to be brought up to a level similar to chain wearers through an increase in defensive stance buffs, and this only in the event that the problem with avoidance cannot be fixed.  the current mits buffs you speak of that monks have are both short duration.  In addition, one roots the player and provides a small bonus, while the other stuns the player for the entire duration...  Having to be stunned to get decent mitigation is not exactly a great tradeoff and leaves the ability with limited uses at best.</P> <P>I have done some remarkable things as a monk, and I know the class, strategies, and inherent abilities intimately.  That does nothing to change the fact that a comaprably-equipped rogue played by the same person (ie me - i play a brig and a monk), can tank much better in a majority of situations.</P> <P>The fact that you can get plate tank mit and near brawler avoidance and tank high end content as a brigand is testament to my point that brawlers need attention.  I think the sta line for rogues is great and the idea of a rogue tank is great.  I am in no way asking for brigands to be nerfed.  I think they are a very fun class to play and are currently balanced very well.</P> <P>DPS comparisons are irrelevant to a tanking discussion.  The core of the issue is that a dedicated fighter class is at a disadvantage when tanking compared to a dedicated dps class.  In addition, while there are always exceptions to the rule, monks do not typically out parse brigands unless there is a great disparity in buffs, gear quality, or player skill between the two.</P>

[selch]

Guess long awaited changes has been <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194" target=_blank>finally released.</a>So I'm guessing that would make brawler "a tank" better than any other "non-fighter"

[mr23sgte]

<DIV>Just wanted to say great feedback from my fellow Monks --</DIV>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>Whilst I belive brawlers do need some dev love, and I hope that EoF's changes will bring it, I *personally* cant really agree with much of what seems to be the opinion..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got a 70/50 swashie (dps specced) and a 70/50 monk (tank specced) and sure, my monk has nowhere near the same dps, but, not counting epic tanking, my swashie's tanking abilities vs that of my monk is nowhere near, its not even a competition.. If I need to tank, Ill load in my monk.</DIV> <DIV>This is despite the fact I have played my monk a few months and my swashie over a year, the fact that my monk is claymore/instance equipped with mainly adept3 and my swashie is close to all fabled with almost all m1.</DIV> <DIV>If I had specced my monk to focus on damage and I specced my swashie to tank it might be different, I couldnt say as thats not the roles Ive made them for, but for my girls, the presence of chain armour instead of leather doesnt make up for no deflection, one single target taunt, no group taunt (without goin tanking AA line), no rescue, a deaggro proc instead of an aggro proc and absolutely no 'oh crap' buffs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I said, I do belive monks need some tanking love and Im sure someone with a Sta AA specced rogue might have a different experience then me, but as I have maxxed out chars of both classes I figured I might as well chime in with my experiences of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iseabeil wrote:<BR> <DIV>Whilst I belive brawlers do need some dev love, and I hope that EoF's changes will bring it, I *personally* cant really agree with much of what seems to be the opinion..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got a 70/50 swashie (dps specced) and a 70/50 monk (tank specced) and sure, my monk has nowhere near the same dps, but, not counting epic tanking, my swashie's tanking abilities vs that of my monk is nowhere near, its not even a competition.. If I need to tank, Ill load in my monk.</DIV> <DIV>This is despite the fact I have played my monk a few months and my swashie over a year, the fact that my monk is claymore/instance equipped with mainly adept3 and my swashie is close to all fabled with almost all m1.</DIV> <DIV>If I had specced my monk to focus on damage and I specced my swashie to tank it might be different, I couldnt say as thats not the roles Ive made them for, but for my girls, the presence of chain armour instead of leather doesnt make up for no deflection, one single target taunt, no group taunt (without goin tanking AA line), no rescue, a deaggro proc instead of an aggro proc and absolutely no 'oh crap' buffs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I said, I do belive monks need some tanking love and Im sure someone with a Sta AA specced rogue might have a different experience then me, but as I have maxxed out chars of both classes I figured I might as well chime in with my experiences of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Switch out your swash AAs  to maximize the stamina line and you will see a large difference, as you alluded to in your post.  From the stamina line, you get a nice chunk of added health, added mitigation (something like +400ish at 70), added avoidance (5% on top of the 10ish% that the shield shield gives you), a guardian-style passive hate gain on hit, and an encounter taunt.  If you happened to be a brigand, you'd have another 400+ mit bonus from your basic self buff as well.</P> <P>I really dont think the rogue 'mini-tanks' are overpowered - I even play one.  The thing that irks me is how underpowered my monk, who is tank specced with AAs, is relative to my brig.</P> <P>With the announcement of the new changes, it looks like we may actually have a nice balance to look forward to.  If mitigation is no longer the single dominant force in high end content due to mobs having insane damage capability and to-hit bonuses, both brawlers and rogue tanks will probably both be much more viable for tanking difficult content.</P> <P> </P> <P>PS - Your rats are sickeningly cute.</P>

[metacell]

<div><blockquote><hr>psubullet wrote:did I mention its fun to see yourself on the heal parse when you land a heal for 5k?  That makes the healers say "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!"  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Wow! They really say "Expletive haxxored by Raijinn"? That's so cool! It'll be my new swear word!</div>

[Wildfury77]

<DIV>GENERALISING</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Rogues</FONT>    </STRONG>- toughest scouts, tier 2 DPS......AAs can improve DPS or improve tanking - Making a "swashtank"</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Brawlers</FONT>  </STRONG>- Highest DPS tanks - can use AAs to become DPS powerhouses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both groups seem to fall into the <STRONG><U>"hybrid"</U></STRONG> DPS/Tank category with the right AAs,equipment and style. I tend to only play rogues/brawlers BECAUSE of this. If I wanted a rigid role I'd pick ranger or guardian.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><EM>In no way is a SWASHTANK better than fully specc'd Brawler tank (i play BOTH) but a staminaline swashie can be better at tanking than a DPS focused brawler.</EM> </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thankfully SoE has given us the option <U><STRONG>not to have to play rigid roles</STRONG></U>.....for those that continue to moan on this thread i suggest <FONT color=#3300ff><STRONG><U>"arcade gauntlet"</U></STRONG></FONT> You'll love it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4><STRONG>SHADOWSCREAM 70 SWASHTANK</STRONG></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <span class=date_text>10-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:57 PM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wildfury77 wrote:<BR> <DIV>GENERALISING</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Rogues</FONT>    </STRONG>- toughest scouts, tier 2 DPS......AAs can improve DPS or improve tanking - Making a "swashtank"</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Brawlers</FONT>  </STRONG>- Highest DPS tanks - can use AAs to become DPS powerhouses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both groups seem to fall into the <STRONG><U>"hybrid"</U></STRONG> DPS/Tank category with the right AAs,equipment and style. I tend to only play rogues/brawlers BECAUSE of this. If I wanted a rigid role I'd pick ranger or guardian.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4><STRONG><U>In no way is a SWASHTANK better than fully specc'd Brawler tank (i play BOTH) but a staminaline swashie can be better at tanking than a DPS focused brawler. </U></STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#66ff00 size=4></FONT></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#66ff00 size=4>QFE - SPOT ON !</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thankfully SoE has given us the option <U><STRONG>not to have to play rigid roles</STRONG></U>.....for those that continue to moan on this thread i suggest <FONT color=#3300ff><STRONG><U>"arcade gauntlet"</U></STRONG></FONT> You'll love it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4><STRONG>SHADOWSCREAM 70 SWASHTANK</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Dak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Disturbed3 wrote:<BR> <P>OMG, </P> <P>All i see is whining, lets up our mitigation to be that of a plate tank and increase our avoidance to something like 85-90% at least. Isn't that what u want. </P> <P>Came to the monk board cause i was thinking i might make a monk alt and everyone here is whining.</P> <P>I have a lvl 70 raid brigand with 5200 mitigation and 63% aviodace, i can tank epic x4s, i average 800-1000 dps on raids. At the same time i've seen monks average 1500 on raids, u have fd, last ditch mit buff rescue, group haste, etc.  I've even seen monks solo epic x2s only 12 lvl below them!?!?! how many other classes you know of that can do that? Monk are not [Removed for Content], just u as a player SUCK!!!!  LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CHAR!!!! </P> <P>As a brigand I'vr been out dps by monks, brusiers, berserkers, i've even seen dirges out parse me.</P> <P>Figure it out, it not your class..... ITS YOU!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I played a Dirge before they nurfed them, and went through this "You're too powerful" issue too. The problem is often the whiners get their way with SOE.</P> <P>I agree it is with the player and not the class. Now My alt which is a Monk is not high enough  for this skill they are talking about, but if it is not working (and with SOE this is not unusual) then it should be fixed, not the Nurf calls. I play an alt that is a lvl 19 Monk, and personally I am quit pleased with her, my first tank class toon. IN SH she in a fight that drew heavy aggro was the last to be dropped, and she does not use anything but fist and mod weapons for her fists. She also is using no more than App4 skills with the exception of the 2 Master II skills she got with lvling. When I play her, I usually put her against lvls 2-4 lvls above and she does well soloing. In fact last night soloing in TS she soloed 3 lvl 22 undead farmers and never went below orange in health. Ohhh her mit is only 480.</P> <P>Player skill means a lot in this game.</P>

[mr23sgte]

Not saying Rogues are overpowered, just saying Monks having issues when Rogues are tanking better. Looks like this will change soon -------