Monks: The lesser Brawler

[Tarmagin]

<DIV>I am a level 70 Monk on a PvE server.  I am part of a raiding guild and thus well equipped.  While I enjoy playing my monk I have had my eyes opened to just how far behind our fellow Brawlers we are.  We are lesser when it comes to DPS, and we are lesser when it comes to mitigation.  In fact I feel that the difference between Bruisers and Monks is greater than wiithin any other class, ie Ranger vs Assassin, Wizard vs Warlock and so on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was aware that we were behind the Bruiser but finally realized how far behind when I played my friends Bruiser, who has almost identical gear to what I have.  I was able to do things with his character that I never could have done with my monk.  It was thoroughly depressing to finally come face to face with how great the divide is.  It is no supprise that the number of Monks has declined and is continuing to shrink while the number of Bruisers has increased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will not go in to a long diatribe about all the specific comparative issues between us.  What I am after is feedback from others who are wondering why we have been left so far behind our Brawler brothers since the release of the KOS expansion.  More importantly, what is going to be done about it in the future to bring the balance back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No I am not calling for a nerf to the Bruiser class because I do not feel they are overpowered.  What I would like is to be put back on to a level playing feild with them.  I know I could defect and become a Bruiser but that does nothing to answer the question as to why this gap has been allowed to exist as we currently know the game.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tarmagin on <span class=date_text>09-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 PM</span>

[Siberia2]

There is definatly a desperity between the two. Bruisers have better miti buffs, more damage, and better avoidance. Only thing we have which is desirable is 100% haste. Imo Bruisers, as you said, arn't overpowered. Monks are just meh. <div></div>

[selch]

One of most favored classes they are due someone being actively in them...Let's see, - Decrease C/P/S by 50 vs. Decrease Defense 15.8 (1.5% avoidance at 70? Avoidance? What is that?)- +1300 mitigation 3 minutes recast vs 40% haste all time- Insta Cast 2176 Stunned mitigation vs 3 seconds cast 2176 Stunned mitigation- 1.5 minutes self-heal, 3 minutes heal others at same values- 24% DPS vs 21% haste- Double attacks with KB vs. None- Mesmerize (shared timer with Instill Panic) vs none- 30 second duration immunity to all magic attacks up to 3 times, 15 second duration 4300 ward against all magic attacks.- Immunity to all effects for 30 seconds 3 minutes recast vs. Group Feign Dead 15 minutes recast...Clearly they have the offensive & defensive abilities and we are back up. Whatever option you look at the differences, they are clearly better at tanking... I would not change Group FD to anything ofcourse, but beside from that I agree with monks being "a lesser fighter". Grass is greener but with this clearly it is, not an halussination...This might be either because to encourage Freeport characters more, but I guess it is encouraged enough by now. Time to encourage balance.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:18 AM</span>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>selch wrote:One of most favored classes they are due someone being actively in them...Let's see, - Decrease C/P/S by 50 vs. Decrease Defense 15.8 (1.5% avoidance at 70? Avoidance? What is that?)- +1200 mitigation 3 minutes recast vs 40% haste all time- Insta Cast 2176 Stunned mitigation vs 3 seconds cast 2176 Stunned mitigation- 1.5 minutes self-heal, 3 minutes heal others at same values- Same DPS wise 21% DPS vs 21% haste- Double attacks with KB vs. None- 30 second duration immunity to all magic attacks up to 3 times, 15 second duration 4300 ward against all magic attacks.- Immunity to all effects for 30 seconds 3 minutes recast vs. Group Feign Dead 15 minutes recast...Clearly they have the offensive & defensive abilities and we are back up. Whatever option you look at the differences, they are clearly better at tanking... I would not change Group FD to anything ofcourse, but beside from that I agree with monks being "a lesser fighter". Grass is greener but with this clearly it is, not an halussination...This might be either because to encourage Freeport characters more, but I guess it is encouraged enough by now. Time to encourage balance.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">09-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:55 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>They also get self heals, which I would gladly give up my heal anyone for [Removed for Content], because I end up using it on myself anyways.</div>

[nanlee]

I am sick to death of hearing this.Bruisers and monks have thier differences, but they are balanced.I'm not sure what you guys are doing but we have 2 bruisers and 3 monks in our guild that raid pretty often, the damage is comparable and real close, but 90% of the time the one monk is almost always first, and the damage from all of us are pretty darned good.Also with your comparison there you forgot tsunami? what thats not worth mentioning? i know our monks get used to pull alot more then the bruisers, and my guild is in death toll right now, so its not as if they dont know what they are doing.Further more my wife has a 70 monk so i do know what they can do.Do i think monks need a little love? yeah they do, but not near as much as alot of people try to say.

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>nanlee wrote:<div></div>I am sick to death of hearing this.Bruisers and monks have thier differences, but they are balanced.I'm not sure what you guys are doing but we have 2 bruisers and 3 monks in our guild that raid pretty often, the damage is comparable and real close, but 90% of the time the one monk is almost always first, and the damage from all of us are pretty darned good.Also with your comparison there you forgot tsunami? what thats not worth mentioning? i know our monks get used to pull alot more then the bruisers, and my guild is in death toll right now, so its not as if they dont know what they are doing.Further more my wife has a 70 monk so i do know what they can do.Do i think monks need a little love? yeah they do, but not near as much as alot of people try to say.<hr></blockquote>You cannot just compare gear, have to go to AA's.  Also who isn't in DT anymore?  And you are a bruiser, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you know =P  you are the other side to this.  Also 5 brawlers in one guild ouch, ouch ouch....</div>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>nanlee wrote:Also with your comparison there you forgot tsunami? what thats not worth mentioning? <hr></blockquote>Yeah, sorry, forgot to add fluff spells.Interrupting 1160 damage 1 minute re-use vs Tsunami (12 seconds auto-attack dodging from non-named heroics or below) 3 minutes recast.

[nanlee]

If you bothered to read the whole post i said my wife has a 70 monk.I have played this char from time to time, and while there are differences its a great char.I have a 70 bruiser and a 70 monk at my finger tips to compare,and furthermore has selch made a post in the past year that hasnt been a whine about monks?You class needs some love, but not near as much as a select few would like to make it out to be.

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>nanlee wrote:<div></div>If you bothered to read the whole post i said my wife has a 70 monk.I have played this char from time to time, and while there are differences its a great char.I have a 70 bruiser and a 70 monk at my finger tips to compare,and furthermore has selch made a post in the past year that hasnt been a whine about monks?You class needs some love, but not near as much as a select few would like to make it out to be.<hr></blockquote>My wife plays a Priest on WoW, I play it maybe once a week or if she needs some hardcore stuff done, as she isnt very skilled but plays for fun.  I cannot say, "Oh I am a master of the priest class in WoW because I play once a week."I read your post top to bottom bottom to top, and I would say the exact same thing still.  Come back again when you have been out tanked by a brigand, which means never cause unless you let it happen they cannot out tank a bruiser, only a monk.</div>

[Tarmagin]

<DIV>There were some comments about the DPS difference between Bruisers and Brawlers during raids.  This is a very tricky comparison.  Deppending on what group you are in and what buffs have been applied to you your dps output can vary widely.  It is a much better comparison to examine each on an individual basis so that you can not color the results either way.  If I have a dps flavored group with some dps buffs I can out dps the two bruisers in my guild by 30 to 40.  When we then switch groups they out dps me by 250 to 450.  I am not talking about one fight either, we have done comparisons from well over 100 raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you examine the point by point differences, as was shown by an earlier post, you can not deny the need for some serious Monk<FONT size=1>ey </FONT><FONT size=3>love.</FONT></DIV>

[jeffdo]

Interrupting 1160 damage 1 minute re-use vs Tsunami (12 seconds auto-attack dodging from non-named heroics or below) 3 minutes recast.-----------Did Tsunami get nerfed? I thought it worked on names?<div></div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>jeffdo wrote:Interrupting 1160 damage 1 minute re-use vs Tsunami (12 seconds auto-attack dodging from non-named heroics or below) 3 minutes recast.-----------Did Tsunami get nerfed? I thought it worked on names?<div></div><hr></blockquote>'Working' is an interesting definition. Tsunami 'works' on nameds as long as they only autoattack. But since over 50% of some nameds attacks are unavoidable CA's (yes, some CA's can be avoided but some mobs also have only unavoidable ones), you really cant say Tsunami is working. It is 'working' yes, but not the way its description says as over 50% of the attacks still go through.<div></div>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>jeffdo wrote:Interrupting 1160 damage 1 minute re-use vs Tsunami (12 secondsauto-attack dodging from non-named heroics or below) 3 minutes recast.-----------Did Tsunami get nerfed? I thought it worked on names?<div></div><hr></blockquote>'Working'is an interesting definition. Tsunami 'works' on nameds as long as theyonly autoattack. But since over 50% of some nameds attacks areunavoidable CA's (yes, some CA's can be avoided but some mobs also haveonly unavoidable ones), you really cant say Tsunami is working. It is'working' yes, but not the way its description says as over 50% of theattacks still go through.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Quite close, however, if mob has +accuracy (many heroic nameds, some solo mobs, and all epics) , auto-attack's can bypass Tsunami easily...Let me tell more clear: Tsunami boosts even con solo avoidance to 100% -> Avoidance is scaled through mob tiers -> Therefor not 100% in practical but on paper...Calculation of Tsunami should be made POST casual avoidance calculations, currently you are on mercy of mobs accuracy boost.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:57 AM</span>

[HydroTsuna]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I agree with Selch as always..As for beeing delusional about the monkvsbruiser hey just take a look at why Mr Gaige betrayed.It really doesn't take "A LOT" of brain power to add it up.Also to answer the main question of the OP-we have been left so far behind because it's SOE here just take a look as some of their track record... *cough* SWG* along with others. It's really no shock to me lol. Sadly the only thing they do understand is the massive use of cancel button. *also don't think too much into the WHY aspect of it all.. you will just get more frustrated*I log into my chars maybe once twice a week.. with every passing day I grow more relentless of logging in. Anyways...erm MONK ON!(until the time beeing)lol<div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by HydroTsunami on <span class=date_text>09-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 AM</span>

[Supp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nanlee wrote:<BR> I am sick to death of hearing this.Bruisers and monks have thier differences, but they are balanced.I'm not sure what you guys are doing but<FONT color=#0099ff> we have 2 bruisers and 3 monks in our guild that raid pretty often, the damage is comparable and real close, but 90% of the time the one monk is almost always first</FONT>, and the damage from all of us are pretty darned good.<FONT color=#33cc00>Also with your comparison there you forgot tsunami? what thats not worth mentioning? i know our monks get used to pull alot more then the bruisers</FONT>, and my guild is in death toll right now, so its not as if they dont know what they are doing.Further more my wife has a 70 monk so i do know what they can do.Do i think monks need a little love? yeah they do, but not near as much as alot of people try to say.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#cccccc>Let me chop this up a little bit...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>I've been in two raiding guilds, and the monks dont beat the bruisers. If your monks are beating your bruisers, well, you dont wanna know what I have to say about that. Perhaps you should stop grouping with your monks because we really enjoy your dps buff.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Oh my. A few live updates ago, they changed Tsunami so that it would not work unless we were engaged in combat. That eliminated effectiveness on springing traps. Fortunately, there is a one second lag on trap springs in DT, so we get a chance to feign, but in no better fashion that bruisers. We can still throw something at a mob to pull it, but easing into that nonaggro 25m range takes precious seconds from Tsunami. For if we lumbered in now and threw an axe on the way back, we get squished for lack of Tsunami working the way it used to. And lets not forget that they also nerfed Tsunami by requiring it to be master to get 12 seconds now. And this nerf came about right when the population would stop farming the mobs that would drop it. I havent seen the master on the market since KoS came out. Dude, we all have adept3's at 10.5 seconds. I'd say the only monks that have it as master were L60 monk mains playing during DoF, and had plat to spare for a CA that, at that time, gave no upgrade for master.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>On the point of heals. Consider this. Monk heal is 35% as master, and is on a 3minute reuse. Bruiser heal is 48% master and every 1.5 minutes. Oh, but monks can cast it on other people right? Is that a good thing? You cast yours without even having to target, saving precious time during a crucial moment. Most times, we use the heal on ourselves, because we dont get the healer luvins since we arent "real" tanks. Lets say we are tanking, and we heal ourselves through the mob so that other folks targeting through us dont lose their target if we were to target ourselves. Our heals can be ninja'd if we do that. Methinks youre taking those precious seconds for granted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>I'm a happy monk. Dont get me wrong. And I aint switchin. If there was one thing I think should be fixed, it would be to give us the mit of bruisers. Dont even know why ours is so much lesser. Bruisers get higher dps. That makes sense. We get more group support stuff. Ok. We are still tanks. Why do we have the mit of druids? Hmmm.</FONT></P>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<div></div>I'm a Bruiser, and I'll just say that I think Monk's DO need a few tweaks to make them a bit more viable...However, there's a couple things said about bruisers that I think need clearing up:<font color="#ffff00">- Double attacks with KB vs. None</font>We don't have an ability that does double attack % along with knockback. The only double attacks we get are from AAs, which Monk have the same access to.Maybe you were thinking Knockout Combination, which is something else entirely. It basically does an extra bit of damage and .5s knockdown with every combat art used. It's nice for spike damage, and can add to DPS.. but it's not an always on double attack and knockdown. At best it allows me to pull aggro if I try and use it fully.Also, this would be the 65 specialty ability, which directly compares to your Dragon Breath.. .which I understand is just another DPS booster too.<font color="#ffff00">- Interrupting 1160 damage 1 minute re-use vs Tsunami (12 seconds auto-attack dodging from non-named heroics or below) 3 minutes recast.</font><div></div>What ability is this comparing to? If you are talking about Sonic Fists, then you might want to add in the fact that it HAS to be used at range (not just whenever you want), and screws up so often that it often doesn't even do damage or anything... at best it can pull something.Honestly, I use it for pulling, that's about it. I don't even remember the last time it actually LANDED for damage... thought about spending money on upgrading, but decided to save my cash.<font color="#ffff00">- +1300 mitigation 3 minutes recast vs 40% haste all time</font>What about the Root for Mitigation ability Monks get? I mean, it's gained at the same level as our Mitigation buff... in fact, your health for for haste ability is gained at the same level as we get our backstab. So while they are similar abilities in design (cost health over time), they are gained at different levels, and have completely different purposes.Also, one thing you neglect to mention is that these do take health... which isn't so bad when DPSing, but is counter intuitive to defense. Don't get me wrong, the ability still rocks, and seems to be a HUGE sticking point for monks, but its not just straight up mitigation.The health drain might not seem like that big a deal at the higher levels, but at the lower levels, in a one healer group, fighting normal things, and most people NOT mastered out, it was basically killing me. Healers were telling me to turn off the ability because it put too much of a strain on them. The problem is, you have to mitigate more than 66% of your health in that 3 minute period in order for the healing cost to even out... and most of the time it wasn't. (Avoidance on regular groups in lower levels actually works).Now that we have two healers as a common situation, or mastered spells with crit heals, etc... it's far easier to heal through that cost, and spike damage is far more of a problem. Only in the end game has it started to show any usefulness.And it's not like we are ahead by 1300 mitigation and you get NOTHING... you get a mitigation ability that doesn't cost health, and at most roots you (which is rarely an issue).However, that brings me to the last point... all this tanking stuff means zilch unless we are actually tanking. And which a zerker pulling down more DPS than me WHILE tanking, AND tanks better than any brawler, why the heck would they want me for tanking (unless it's for some special situation). We are in the same boat, avoidance-wise... not sure why folks seem to think we have more avoidance than Monks.Honestly, I only ever tank instances or claymore groups now, and even then not always. And in those situations, our tanking benefits are overkill. I can honestly say I've used my self-stun mitigation more often than the Mitigation for Health ability. That is to say... very, very, VERY few times.<p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class=date_text>09-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 PM</span>

[J4k]

<P>I think you all need to whipe the tears from your eyes really quick and realise that both brawler classes are pretty messed up atm. Neither class is really a needed class except for the princes encounter. More then 1 brawler on a raid is a waste of a raid slow. Even 1 brawler in a raid can be considered  a waste of space. Berserkers are able to put out more dps then monks and bruisers, Tank better then monks and bruisers, and generate more hate then monks and bruisers. Our hate is pretty jacked up as it is due to it coming over time where as most other fights are capable of burst hate. I think you should stop crying about which brawler is better and realise that it doesnt matter because at the end of the day theres classes out there who can perform all of our jobs and do it better. </P> <P>PS> I know some fool is going to try and say berserkers cant out dps us and id strongly suggest that you avoid saying that because all you will do is make your self look dumb and show everyone how much knowledge you lack when it comes to this game THUS why i strongly suggest avoiding saying it. And if a berserker is really parsing lower then you i wouldnt admit it because he obviously hasnt a clue what to do and shouldnt be in a guild untill he does get a clue.</P>

[Kichigai Daidoji]

<P>ok ill bite</P> <P>BERSERKERS DO NOT OUT DPS, BRAWLERS!!!!</P> <P> </P>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>Yes, they do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only reason a zerker with similar equipment, properly spec'ed on AAs will not out DPS a brawler is if the zerker doesn't pace his DPS and pulls aggro too much.  And forget it if the zerker is tanking.  20% higher DPS across the board.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Morrolan V on <span class=date_text>09-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>Bruisers are way better than monks, but both brawlers need help.</P> <P>In short: Dragorn is right.</P> <P>Oh and if you play a bruiser and have access to a monk but still think the classes are balanced, I do this when I think of you:</P> <P>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.</P> <P>I played a monk from beta until high level betrayal, and it isn't even close.  There is no, zero, none, not any reason to pick a monk over a bruiser, ever.</P>

[ki sensei]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>Bruisers are way better than monks</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Blasphemy!

[Supp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>There is no, zero, none, not any reason to pick a monk over a bruiser, ever.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#cccccc>We do look cooler old buddy, not that that wins me any spots. Nevertheless, I appreciate you saying it straight up. Lots of peeps base their opinions on yours. Perhaps the Devs are more likely to listen as well.</FONT>

[Gungo]

<DIV>I agree monks need help, but that doesnt mean bruisers are overpowered. In short i agree with dragorn, but at the same time we are suppsoe to be the tank/dps hybrid. More tank then DPS. while we are suppsoe to be nearly equivlant tanks we should be able to provide ample DPS. Which we do on raids. No we are not T1 DPS, but then again we are not suppose to be.  Imho the best way to make brawlers into a useful raid class. Is to give them utility to increase raid DPS and not the brawlers direct DPS. In example turn thier group haste/DPS buffs into overcap buffs. 21% haste overcapped and 24% DPS overcapped will increase the raids DPS more and still contain a controlled cap. (and allow monks to make full use of all thier haste buffs, thus increasing thier DPS closer to bruisers)</DIV> <DIV>They should also turn the monks stun mit buff into an instant cast.  </DIV> <DIV>Then they should add in a limited Mitigation buff to monks. I was thinking of a mit buff that increases depending on the monks health. 100% = +700 mit, 90% = +800, 80%= +900, 70% = +1000, 60%= +1100, 50% =+1200, 40% =+ 1300, 30% =+1400, 20% =+1500, 10%= +1600. This wouldn't be overpowering and would allow the monk to prevent getting 2 shotted which is one of the brawlers main issues.  </DIV>

[Mala-Shea]

<P>Ok...lets sum it up....</P> <P>Monks..68+.56% blah blah blah..+1100mit blah...then blah...45% @23 haste...blah blah blah....mad....blah blah blah....monks teh suXXor</P> <P> </P> <P>Raid usefulness? </P> <P>Monk...nil</P> <P>Bruisers...nil (but a little more than than monks)</P> <P>Zerker...more dps, more hate generation, better..no wait...VIABLE raid tank...and a freakin' cool class hat good for ramming up mobs [Removed for Content]!</P> <P> </P> <P>yeah........</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[diamondma]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>J4kik wrote:<div></div> <p>I think you all need to whipe the tears from your eyes really quick and realise that both brawler classes are pretty messed up atm. Neither class is really a needed class except for the princes encounter. More then 1 brawler on a raid is a waste of a raid slow. Even 1 brawler in a raid can be considered  a waste of space. Berserkers are able to put out more dps then monks and bruisers, Tank better then monks and bruisers, and generate more hate then monks and bruisers. Our hate is pretty jacked up as it is due to it coming over time where as most other fights are capable of burst hate. I think you should stop crying about which brawler is better and realise that it doesnt matter because at the end of the day theres classes out there who can perform all of our jobs and do it better. </p> <p>PS> I know some fool is going to try and say berserkers cant out dps us and id strongly suggest that you avoid saying that because all you will do is make your self look dumb and show everyone how much knowledge you lack when it comes to this game THUS why i strongly suggest avoiding saying it. And if a berserker is really parsing lower then you i wouldnt admit it because he obviously hasnt a clue what to do and shouldnt be in a guild untill he does get a clue.</p><hr></blockquote>    i agree with drag its way beyond a bruiser / monk debate at this point. the fact of the matter is other than a for a few mobs there is absolutely no need for a brawler on raid at this time. its time people quit crying about bruisers being better and start calling for changes to the brawler class because at the moment we are a near useless class for raids.        the community in general called for nerfs against the brawler class because of our solo'ing ability and in turn our dps has been decreased quite a bit over time, yet instead of addressing the big issue u would rather complain about a class that is in the same leaky boat as us they just have a few less holes.  quit crying about bruisers being better and start asking for brawlers in general to be addressed. </div><p>Message Edited by diamondmage on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:31 AM</span>

[selch]

I don't think anyone asked for nerfs to Bruisers in this thread. We are just showing "monks" are already way pathetic than Bruisers. (or may be forgetten in right terms, actually we all know not forgetten, big possibility ignored.)If somethings going to be done to brawlers, <b><i>first</i></b> brawlers should be <u>in-line</u>, <b><i>then</i></b> should move ahead together. Otherwise it will stay as Gaige said: There is (and will be) no reason to pick a monk over bruiser (2+1 still > 1+1)<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:40 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

Heh, well I have had similar 'discussions' in templar boards. Every comparison between templar and a fury was seen as Nerf The Fury even though everyone clearly stated that they dont want to see furies nerfed. To me that seemed to be more of an attemp to disqualify the valid complains than any real argument. So I think same goes here, some people just dont want to see monks being improved so they will invent strawmen as their main arguments. <div></div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:Heh, well I have had similar 'discussions' in templar boards. Every comparison between templar and a fury was seen as Nerf The Fury even though everyone clearly stated that they dont want to see furies nerfed. To me that seemed to be more of an attemp to disqualify the valid complains than any real argument. So I think same goes here, some people just dont want to see monks being improved so they will invent strawmen as their main arguments. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree completely.  I hope somethign is done with us in EoF or there will be a lot of monk deaths (either quitting the game or playing alts).  I know I will be one of those mentioned deaths, and if I can ever get over this strep throat I should have my troub to 50 here soon then 60 etc...  Usually my favorite saying is Viva La Revolucion, but in this case there isn't much to fight for anymore, it is like beatign a dead horse, and it is almost better to give up than to fight.</div>

[DarkSkador]

<P> Its funny how all you guys dps this dps that I do this you do that. I mean guys for real it doesn't how strong and how much damage you can do it's all come down to how good is your healer and teamwork and I don't care who is better then who as long as the job is done so don't worry about who's the best enjoy the game guys <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>DarkSkador wrote:<div></div> <p> Its funny how all you guys dps this dps that I do this you do that. I mean guys for real it doesn't how strong and how much damage you can do it's all come down to how good is your healer and teamwork and I don't care who is better then who as long as the job is done so don't worry about who's the best enjoy the game guys <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><hr></blockquote>That is just it, hard to enjoy a game when you are turned down from raiding guilds because more than 1 brawler is a waste of space.</div>

[Nightt N'D]

<P>I love my monk but I have to agree with a lot of posts here. We need some loving to the point where we are at least on par with our brawling cousins.</P>

[jinxedup]

NERF BRUISERS!

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div></div>NERF BRUISERS!<hr></blockquote>Won't do anything but make brawlers even less useful in raid situations.</div>

[J4k]

<DIV>Ok. Obviously no one realises this so im going to lay it out for you. AS long as all you silly people complain about oh brawlers are tanks because they are fighters, well there will never be a need for more more then 1. Other fighter classes are far better at tanking and keeping aggro and everyones solution to wanting monk and bruisers to be more useful is some type of utility.... Unless that utility is a raid wide mass group buff 1000 dmg ae proc with 100 dps/haste or some type of extreme debuff, i really dont see there being much of a utility that will change peoples minds about wanting more then 1 bruiser. I also dont see how this "Utility" Is at all going to increase our tanking ability which everyone has such a hard on about. A game where you can only have 24 people in a raid DOES NOT need 6 different tank classes. 1/4th of a raid doesnt need to be tanks. If 1/4th of your raid is tanks well dont question why you never kill things. Ive been saying this since day one and always people cry about us being fighters so we much be tanks~~ Well lemmy let you in on a secret Back when all the descriptions of brawlers pointed toward us being dps well thats when we were actually wanted in raids. I was doing great dps i really had no utility or tanking ability in t5 but i could do dps and i was quite happy with that. Being wanted in a raid or guild because i had a use was alot more fun and made me alot more happy then being a class that is only needed for the princes and then i could be replaced with a berserker or scout which could bring 3x as much to a raid. Then people cry that oh we are fighters so we must tank. Now do you see a pattern from the day we became " Fighter tanks " because of the cry babies to now? We have grown progessivly less wanted and less useful. 6 tanks in a game where only 24 people can raid you will never have all 6 in a raid unless you guild doesnt want to progress anywhere. 1/4th of a raid being tanks will get no one anywhere its a waste of space. All you need right now is 3 to 4 tanks in a raid and thats it. One of which being a berserker which does just as much dps as any scout can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am i saying i hate playing a bruiser? No. ive been playing once since beta. I will continue to play one and continue to try and make the class better. I Play my class to the best of its ability but the issue is that the best of its ability and as far as i can tell the best of monks ability is the worst of other classes ability. ( I.E our best is other classes worse for example berserkers.... yeah... ) Now I know that everyones going to cry now and say well... we are fighters so we must tank!!! because thats the only excuss ive seen toward any of my posts that might actually make us somewhat wanted in the past year or more and thats ok to not have your own opinons about anything just say what you read BUT untill you realise that giving us some type of utility to make us more wanted would completly defy all of your cry baby posts about us being tanks. Would some type of utility make us better? possibly but do you think its going to happen? Do you really want to be usefull because you are a buff bot? Brawlers being turned into tanks is what got us where we are now. Brawlers being turned into tanks is what started the unlimited amount of posts about what use do brawlers have? Brawlers need to be better! Why should i make a brawler? and the list goes on. The only hope for us from a tanking stand point is this mit/avoidance revamp in EoF. Which even if this whole avoidance/mit revamp makes us somewhat better at tanking... That wont change the fact that we wont be wanted. You still wont need 10 brawlers in a raid or guild. What i see it doing is letting a bruiser or monk tank ocasionally but you still wont be seeing a mass number of brawlers being recruited.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now am i saying monks dont need a boost? Nope im saying it doesnt matter because any boosts that will logically be done to your class wont make you any more wanted then bruisers are atm. 6 tanks = to many.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>J4kik wrote:<div></div> <div>Ok. Obviously no one realises this so im going to lay it out for you. AS long as all you silly people complain about oh brawlers are tanks because they are fighters, well there will never be a need for more more then 1. Other fighter classes are far better at tanking and keeping aggro and everyones solution to wanting monk and bruisers to be more useful is some type of utility.... <font color="#ccffff" size="6">Unless that utility is a raid waid mass group buff 1000 dmg ae proc with 100 dps/haste or some type of extreme debuff, i really dont see there being much of a utility that will change peoples minds about wanting more then 1 bruiser</font>. I also dont see how this "Utility" Is at all going to increase our tanking ability which everyone has such a hard on about. A game where you can only have 24 people in a raid DOES NOT need 6 different tank classes. 1/4th of a raid doesnt need to be tanks. If 1/4th of your raid is tanks well dont question why you never kill things. Ive been saying this since day one and always people cry about us being fighters so we much be tanks~~ Well lemmy let you in on a secret Back when all the descriptions of brawlers pointed toward us being dps well thats when we were actually wanted in raids. I was doing great dps i really had no utility or tanking ability in t5 but i could do dps and i was quite happy with that. Being wanted in a raid or guild because i had a use was alot more fun and made me alot more happy then being a class that is only needed for the princes and then i could be replaced with a berserker or scout which could bring 3x as much to a raid. Then people cry that oh we are fighters so we must tank. Now do you see a pattern from the day we became " Fighter tanks " because of the cry babies to now? We have grown progessivly less wanted and less useful. 6 tanks in a game where only 24 people can raid you will never have all 6 in a raid unless you guild doesnt want to progress anywhere. 1/4th of a raid being tanks will get no one anywhere its a waste of space. All you need right now is 3 to 4 tanks in a raid and thats it. One of which being a berserker which does just as much dps as any scout can.</div> <div> </div> <div>Am i saying i hate playing a bruiser? No. ive been playing once since beta. I will continue to play one and continue to try and make the class better. I Play my class to the best of its ability but the issue is that the best of its ability and as far as i can tell the best of monks ability is the worst of other classes ability. ( I.E our best is other classes worse for example berserkers.... yeah... ) Now I know that everyones going to cry now and say well... we are fighters so we must tank!!! because thats the only excuss ive seen toward any of my posts that might actually make us somewhat wanted in the past year or more and thats ok to not have your own opinons about anything just say what you read BUT untill you realise that giving us some type of utility to make us more wanted would completly defy all of your cry baby posts about us being tanks. Would some type of utility make us better? possibly but do you think its going to happen? Do you really want to be usefull because you are a buff bot? Brawlers being turned into tanks is what got us where we are now. Brawlers being turned into tanks is what started the unlimited amount of posts about what use do brawlers have? Brawlers need to be better! Why should i make a brawler? and the list goes on. The only hope for us from a tanking stand point is this mit/avoidance revamp in EoF. Which even if this whole avoidance/mit revamp makes us somewhat better at tanking... That wont change the fact that we wont be wanted. You still wont need 10 brawlers in a raid or guild. What i see it doing is letting a bruiser or monk tank ocasionally but you still wont be seeing a mass number of brawlers being recruited.</div> <div> </div> <div>Now am i saying monks dont need a boost? Nope im saying it doesnt matter because any boosts that will logically be done to our class wont make you any more wanted then bruisers are atm. 6 tanks = to many.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>I highlighted what I am responding to =PI agree compeltely with your post, and currently monks only have one useful debuff and that is punishing cobra.  Monks,hell brawlers period, should have nice debuffs.  Monks usually cripple their opponents using pressure points etc correct?  While bruisers also cripple their opponents through breaking things, noses bones etc... Why can we not get a defining thing.  We used to have tsunami till they screw it up, and well we aren't the only ones who can fd, pets pull better than we can.  I do not really want to tank personally, if I did I would roll a plate.  Yes, I was [Removed for Content] that a brigand out tanked me due to mitigation, but brigands get aoe dodge, massive debuffs, insane dps, where are their downfalls?   Anyways I would like to see our Ca's have some debuffs added on, as stuns etc are useless on epics, cept frozen palm or whatever it is that does knockdown epics.Ie.  flailing centipede reducing the mobs avoidance for a short duration, I don't know about you guys but if I got hit 5 times I would be hurting...  May not be the best example but something new, something that makes sense...</div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>KazzySoJazzy wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div></div>NERF BRUISERS!<hr></blockquote>Won't do anything but make brawlers even less useful in raid situations.</div><hr></blockquote>I bet that is a bruiser who demands the nerf.<div></div>

[Supp]

<FONT color=#cccccc>Let me remind everyone of the title of this thread. It is not called, "Brawlers, the needless raid spot?" You bruisers in this thread that are telling monks to stop asking for monk enhancements need to reread the original post, for you are hijacking the thread.</FONT> <FONT color=#cccccc>Lets say the Devs found a way to give the brawlers a static dps boost of say 40%. Still, there would be no reason to roll a monk over a bruiser. Or perhaps a static mit boost of say 50%? You see where Im headed here? Stay on topic please. Bruisers have better dps and much better tanking ability. Monks are also hybrids to perform that function, but we do neither better than a bruiser. That's the issue currently in question.</FONT><p>Message Edited by Supple on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 AM</span>

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supple wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#cccccc>Let me remind everyone of the title of this thread. It is not called, "Brawlers, the needless raid spot?" You bruisers in this thread that are telling monks to stop asking for monk enhancements need to reread the original post, for you are hijacking the thread.</FONT> <FONT color=#cccccc>Lets say the Devs found a way to give the brawlers a static dps boost of say 40%. Still, there would be no reason to roll a monk over a bruiser. Or perhaps a static mit boost of say 50%? You see where Im headed here? Stay on topic please. Bruisers have better dps and much better tanking ability. Monks are also hybrids to perform that function, but we do neither better than a bruiser. That's the issue currently in question.</FONT> <P>Message Edited by Supple on <SPAN class=date_text>09-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:11 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am fully aware of what this thread is about and im telling you it doesnt matter. What ever boost you are wanting to get wont matter because neither monks or bruisers which ever you see is better are Wanted because neither are good enough to warrent a guild to having more then 1. Look at the bigger picture here.</P> <P>Lets say a monk all of a sudden gets a increase to be at par with bruisers. Do you think every guild is going to kick there bruisers for you? Do you actually think you will get more guild invites? No to both because more then 1 brawler in guild and definatly in a raid is useless.</P> <P>Try reading my post if you can read that much and open your eye's because thats how it is wether you think so or not.</P><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 AM</span>

[Supp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supple wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#cccccc>Let me remind everyone of the title of this thread. It is not called, "Brawlers, the needless raid spot?" You bruisers in this thread that are telling monks to stop asking for monk enhancements need to reread the original post, for you are hijacking the thread.</FONT> <FONT color=#cccccc>Lets say the Devs found a way to give the brawlers a static dps boost of say 40%. Still, there would be no reason to roll a monk over a bruiser. Or perhaps a static mit boost of say 50%? You see where Im headed here? Stay on topic please. Bruisers have better dps and much better tanking ability. Monks are also hybrids to perform that function, but we do neither better than a bruiser. That's the issue currently in question.</FONT> <P>Message Edited by Supple on <SPAN class=date_text>09-19-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:11 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am fully aware of what this thread is about and im telling you it doesnt matter. What ever boost you are wanting to get wont matter because neither monks or bruisers which ever you see is better are Wanted because neither are good enough to warrent a guild to having more then 1. Look at the bigger picture here.</P> <P>Lets say a monk all of a sudden gets a increase to be at par with bruisers. Do you think every guild is going to kick there bruisers for you? Do you actually think you will get more guild invites? No to both because more then 1 brawler in guild and definatly in a raid is useless.</P> <P>Try reading my post if you can read that much and open your eye's because thats how it is wether you think so or not.</P> <P>Message Edited by J4kik on <SPAN class=date_text>09-19-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:23 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>O K. LET ME SPEEL IT OUT FOR YOU. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT RAID DESIRABILITY. I KNOW PERFECTLY WELL ABOUT THE RAID INVITES ISSUE. STOP DISCUSSING CLASS RAID NEEDS. NOT EVERYONE RAIDS. YOU ARE HIJACKING THE THREAD. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT IMBALANCES BETWEEN SUBCLASSES OF THE BRAWLER CLASS. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>Sorrry for the caps folks, but some people just dont get it.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by Supple on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 AM</span>

[KazzySoJaz]

Actually this is completely about raid viability IMO...  Brawlers are in perfect shape in any other way shape or form, other than in raids.<div></div>

[Supp]

<P><FONT color=#cccccc>Ok, I'll make one less go of this...</FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarmagin wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am a level 70 Monk on a PvE server.  I am part of a raiding guild and thus well equipped.  <FONT color=#ff0000>While I enjoy playing my monk I have had my eyes opened to just how far behind our fellow Brawlers we are. </FONT><FONT color=#0099ff> We are lesser when it comes to DPS, and we are lesser when it comes to mitigation.</FONT>  <FONT color=#ff0000>In fact I feel that the difference between Bruisers and Monks is greater than wiithin any other class</FONT>, ie Ranger vs Assassin, Wizard vs Warlock and so on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0099ff>I was aware that we were behind the Bruiser but finally realized how far behind when I played my friends Bruiser, who has almost identical gear to what I have.  I was able to do things with his character that I never could have done with my monk.</FONT>  <FONT color=#ff0000>It was thoroughly depressing to finally come face to face with how great the divide is.</FONT>  It is no supprise that the number of Monks has declined and is continuing to shrink while the number of Bruisers has increased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will not go in to a long diatribe about all the specific comparative issues between us.  <FONT color=#0099ff><STRONG>What I am after is feedback from others who are wondering why we have been left so far behind our Brawler brothers since the release of the KOS expansion.</STRONG></FONT>  More importantly, what is going to be done about it in the future to bring the balance back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No I am not calling for a nerf to the Bruiser class because I do not feel they are overpowered. <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG> What I would like is to be put back on to a level playing feild with them.</STRONG></FONT>  I know I could defect and become a Bruiser but that does nothing to answer the question as to why this gap has been allowed to exist as we currently know the game.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Tarmagin on <SPAN class=date_text>09-16-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#cccccc>Aint a thing in there about raid desirability. If you still dont get it, I'm afraid I tried.</FONT>

[JudyJudy]

<DIV><EM>Dragorn, you come off as rude, insensitive and have the uncanny knack of addressing the brawler community like we're stupid.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>But...  You're honest, straight forward and you know your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I like that.  :smileyhappy:</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><EM></EM> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM>The only hope for us from a tanking stand point is this mit/avoidance revamp in EoF. </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><BR></EM> </DIV><EM></EM> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><EM>I agree completely with this statement - and many more you've described.  I hope we do get our mitigation and avoidance looked at in EoF.  I hope everyday.</EM><BR></DIV>

[Gaige]

Dragorn you're dumb.  Making a tank class balanced as a scout for desirability is a horrible idea.

[Gungo]

<P>The problem is not that we are fighters. It is because we are not scouts. Yes you want moe dps. fine. Ok lets say SoE Decides to increase brawlers dps. Do you expect to do more DPS then assasins, then wizards etc? I can assure you Brawlers will never be T1 DPS. It was never intended to be. </P> <P>So lets say they increase our dps. WHY WOULD A RAID GUILD TAKE A  BRAWLER over an assasin, who will always produce more DPS. Fact is we won't be taken and will still be useless. Utility in the form of increasing the raids overall DPS, comparable tanking, and sufficeint direct DPS is what brawlers need to be viable. If brawlers where the only class to overcap Haste/DPS or some such and classes are able to cap thier haste/ DPS easily in raids. A brawler setup in the proper group adding 24% additional overcap haste/DPS to each other class in that group will increase the overall raid dps more then just adding in another dps class. Look at the impact brigands debuffs make on the raid DPS. You do not need to have direct dps to impact on a raids functionality or be useful. utility in the form of debuffs and buffs can have a significant impact on how a raid performs. </P> <P>Each one of us chose a brawler and here is the simple fact of life you need to deal with. You will never be the best tank, you will never be the best DPS.  If you think you need to be the best TANK or the best DPS to be useful on a raid then you might as well make a new class now.</P>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>Dragorn you're dumb.  Making a tank class balanced as a scout for desirability is a horrible idea.<hr></blockquote>*pushes the scout away*...</div>

[Supp]

<P><FONT color=#cccccc>I picked a brawler knowing full well I wouldnt be a raid tank, knowing I wouldnt be T1 dps, knowing there would be limited spacing on raids. I picked brawler because I truly wanted the hybrid nature, a decent amount of both, and of course the holy feign. I love brawler abilities. I picked the monk over the bruiser because of the motif, which I still hold true to. I picked a summoner over a sorcerer for very similar reasons. It's what I like. However RP and Motif vs ability can only be withstood for so long. Take my Fury, who was once a 70 Warden. The warden had a wonderful motif for a long time. But, a long series of neverending nerfs and inconsiderate craptastic destruction of Warden RP and Motif made me finally switch.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>This thread is hopelessly hijacked at this point.</FONT></P>

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> Dragorn you're dumb.  Making a tank class balanced as a scout for desirability is a horrible idea.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never once said we should out dps a scout BUT being somewhat good at dps and somewhat good at tanking isnt working. People want to be better tanks well if we are made better tanks its really not going to change the want or need for more then 1 brawler. After 2 years of playing this game i highly highly doubt everyguild is going to go. oh brawlers are better at tanking then they used to be. !!! Lets just make them tank instead of guardians and berserkers and paladins and shadowknights!!! Ya thats a great idea. Well now you got 3 classes are are just as if not more useless then we were. ( except zerkers because they can out dps scouts ). </P> <P>Our dps will never be T1 dps and will never be better then a scout i never once said it should be BUT there needs to be something done to give us a use. I mean Scouts not only do better dps then us there utility is greater also. They get so many poisons that do different things to the mob thats 6 assassins could be doing 6 differet debuffs just from poisons to the mob. As sucky as being a buff bot might be i did somewhat enjoy T5 having a 1k mitigation buff that i could put on the tank. Yes 1k is a little extreme BUT we do need something to contribute to the raid along with slightly better dps. Even if monks got some type of defensive buff that would help the tank out and bruisers got some type of offensive damag increasing stuff that would possibly create a want to have atleast 1 of each in a raid. Plus of course being able to do decent dps etc. I just honestly dont think the whole tanking thing is working for us. When we became tanks is when we became more and more unwanted. As time goes on its getting worse and we are getting less usefull and less wanted. </P> <P>When you see GROUPS saying Looking for tank anything but  a brawler on more then 1 occasion thats pretty low.</P>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>There are three separate questions here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Are brawlers balanced relative to other tanks (or DPS, or utility) for game-wide, non-raid content?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Do brawlers have a role in a properly constituted raid force?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. In both cases, are monks balanced relative to bruisers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that the answer to all three questions, at least at level 70, 50 AA points is no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. This is the closest question.  Warriors can hold aggro better than brawlers, and can out DPS them.  Mitigation, in general, works better than avoidance, particularly against yellow and orange MoBs.  That said, our utility, particularly FD, makes brawlers great for soloing at all levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Brawlers are marginalized on raids.  We are not the best choice to tank 98% of raid mobs, and, even spec'ed out for max damage, we are mediocre DPS at best.  Our utility and buffs are marginal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Bruisers are superior to monks in almost every scenario across the game.  DPS, tanking, whatever.  This is just wrong and should be corrected.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What to do about 1?  Either buff brawlers or nerf warriors.  In particular, warrior DPS is broken relative to brawlers.  No way should a zerker be able to hold aggro, mitigate damage AND DPS better than a brawler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What about 2?  Seems to me that one solution to this would be to about double the effectiveness of AAs, but make tanking and DPS AAs mutually exclusive.  So, we could go down an AA path that would allow us to tank really well but would keep our DPS low, or we could go down a DPS path that would put us up near scouts and mages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And 3?  I have no specific suggestions, but overall the balance between brawler sub classes needs to be improved.</DIV>

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <P>Each one of us chose a brawler and here is the simple fact of life you need to deal with. You will never be the best tank, you will never be the best DPS.  If you think you need to be the best TANK or the best DPS to be useful on a raid then you might as well make a new class now.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Make a berserker. They seem to being pretty good when it comes to being the best at dps and tanking atm...

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> Dragorn you're dumb.  Making a tank class balanced as a scout for desirability is a horrible idea.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never once said we should out dps a scout BUT being somewhat good at dps and somewhat good at tanking isnt working. People want to be better tanks well if we are made better tanks its really not going to change the want or need for more then 1 brawler. After 2 years of playing this game i highly highly doubt everyguild is going to go. oh brawlers are better at tanking then they used to be. !!! Lets just make them tank instead of guardians and berserkers and paladins and shadowknights!!! Ya thats a great idea. Well now you got 3 classes are are just as if not more useless then we were. ( except zerkers because they can out dps scouts ). </P> <P>Our dps will never be T1 dps and will never be better then a scout i never once said it should be BUT there needs to be something done to give us a use. I mean Scouts not only do better dps then us there utility is greater also. They get so many poisons that do different things to the mob thats 6 assassins could be doing 6 differet debuffs just from poisons to the mob. As sucky as being a buff bot might be i did somewhat enjoy T5 having a 1k mitigation buff that i could put on the tank. Yes 1k is a little extreme BUT we do need something to contribute to the raid along with slightly better dps. Even if monks got some type of defensive buff that would help the tank out and bruisers got some type of offensive damag increasing stuff that would possibly create a want to have atleast 1 of each in a raid. Plus of course being able to do decent dps etc. I just honestly dont think the whole tanking thing is working for us. When we became tanks is when we became more and more unwanted. As time goes on its getting worse and we are getting less usefull and less wanted. </P> <P>When you see GROUPS saying Looking for tank anything but  a brawler on more then 1 occasion thats pretty low.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow dragorn i almost agree with you. here is what i think. Keep brawlers as comparable tanks for add pick ups etc.(not the best tank skills like Tower of stone set guards apart from bruisers), keep brawlers as sufficeint DPS below rogues but around bard DPS. Give brawlers 1 utility for raid guilds to say we need a bruiser to increase Raid DPS (ala Dispatch), We need a monk to keep the tank alive (ala massive debuffs from swash). We don't loose anything this way we don't interfere with other class roles. and we keep sufficient DPS tanking and raid desirebility.

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>J4kik wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Gungo wrote:<P>Each one of us chose a brawler and here is the simple fact of life you need to deal with. You will never be the best tank, you will never be the best DPS.  If you think you need to be the best TANK or the best DPS to be useful on a raid then you might as well make a new class now.</P><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Make a berserker. They seem to being pretty good when it comes to being the best at dps and tanking atm...<hr></blockquote>May be making a scout for you also could do the trick you have been longing for.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <P>Each one of us chose a brawler and here is the simple fact of life you need to deal with. You will never be the best tank, you will never be the best DPS.  If you think you need to be the best TANK or the best DPS to be useful on a raid then you might as well make a new class now.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Make a berserker. They seem to being pretty good when it comes to being the best at dps and tanking atm...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I wouldn't say bezerker are the best overall tank, but they do tank and DPS far better then they should. I was always under the impression by the eq2 dev team that paladins were ment to be the second best tank. And we see what a good job they did on that. </P> <P>As far as DPS gos many beleive Warrior DPS to be far better then it should be particularly zerks. While few are chanting for a nerf to zerks. We wouldnt mind adjustments made to other classes to compensate for the warriors far better AA tree's. Which really is what all this came from. The warrior AA tree was far better then anything the brawlers or the crusaders recieved. +mitgation AA, + double attack w procs and wpns, +DPS. Etc. It offered warriors a clear option of becoming a better tank or better at DPS and agro. Imho no changes shoudl be made to the Kos AA tree until we see what mess is created by the EoF subclass and belief tree's. </P>

[Shinku]

Well, seems like this thread is starting to go in circles, so since it's kind of turned in to an opinion thread, I'll give mine <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I realize there are fairly significant differences between the 2 brawler classes. However I think the main issue even above the differences, is the "need" for brawlers. (yeah, I know, another circle). Which is why I think this thread got hijacked and tuned into a "needed" class discussion. Because it's the real issue. I really don't care about the differences too much between brawlers. I play a 70 monk with 48 AA's just for the record. I also have a 70 assassin. In my guild, my monk is never really asked to come to a raid. The guild usually wants me to bring my 70 assassin or 69 illusionist. It's just a fact. I didn't roll my monk because I wanted to tank. I wanted to dps mostly and just like the "character" of a monk. Honestly, I still make the dps list 98% of the time. First is assassins, then summoners, then wiz's. I'm usually right under them about 7 or 8 on the list. I think that's reasonable since I'm not pure "dps" or "tank". The thing that DOES irritate me though, is the fact that our zerkers now are reaching top 5 consistantly on the dps list. Outdamaging everything other then assassins, and summoners. it's usually 60/40 the wizs make the top 5 only a touch more then the zerkers. So yeah, a plate tank should NOT be outdamaging virtually all scouts and brawlers, and maintain superb tanking mit at the same time. Our MT is a zerker, it's not him doing the uber damage "usually". It's the other 2 zerks in offensive duel wielding that tear past the scouts and brawlers, and even the MT on occasioin. So yeah, I say give us brawlers something else to help the desireability factor. Like one post above said, presure points, etc.....DEBUFFS would be my guess for a good start if they don't want to up our dps. Virtually everyone of my assassins CA's have some sort of debuff/dot on them, not to mention all the poisons assassins get. So give brawlers debuffs of one sort or another on each CA and all of a sudden our desireability goes up. Either that, or since quite a few of the Monks CA's have some sort of stun/knockdown/stifle, make it affect Epic targets...thus "desireabliity" on raids. My assassin is boring in group situations, yet a blast in Raid's. My illusionist is way more fun in group situtations and very boring in Raid situations. However I love playing my monk in both situations. So give brawlers some other reason to be at a raid is all I'm saying, and appears most of the brawler community feels the same way.<div></div>

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV>This is a hot topic (again), so I guess adding to it (again) might possibly bring some attention (never) to a situation that is in dire need of a well thought out (hahaha- good luck) fix.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I apologize for the sarcasm since it isnt constructive, but it is honestly to the point that without some wry humor I cant even stand to approach this subject. I think my first ever forum post was on this exact topic 4 months out of beta.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to approach the OP's point first so as not to be accused of derailing, brawler balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am going to make a few huge assumptions, mainly because there is no official statements I can draw on that cant be twisted or reneged in a moment. I will base my assumptions on general feeling in the forums for the past year +.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Intended</DIV> <DIV>1. Tanking- Monk > Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>2. Damage- Bruiser > Monk</DIV> <DIV>3. Utility- Monk = Bruiser</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking</DIV> <DIV>To make a balance work, Monks need a comfortable edge in tanking that is equal to the Bruiser edge in damage. Monks need to find a sustainable mitigation advantage and a sustainable avoidance advantage. Avoidance changes are obviously not as critical since the avoidance tanking system has been disfunctional.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation is the biggest sticking point for monk tanking. Having scouts tank equally to a monk, simply due to mitigation difference, is beyond ridiculous. Without the ability to sustain mit levels higher than scouts for all brawlers, and the ability for monks to sustain higher mit values than bruisers, their is no way to balance this issue currently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Monk mitigation + root ability was mentioned in an earlier post. It is useless when compared to the mitigation + health drain. It has a painfully long cast time, it is short duration, you cant use it to pull, and it is much weaker. Making it a toggle ability and much stronger could help, but that is just a thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The brawler heal abilities are also off. Monk version = longer recast, weaker effect, target others, mana free. Bruiser version = shorter recast, stronger effect, self only, low mana cost. The only advantage the monk version has is the mana free cast, I personally consider the ability to cast on others or self only an even trade. Both styles can give you problems or cause complications when using the ability. The weaker effect and longer recast seems excesive penalties to pay. If they dont want to be able to heal 5000hp on a guard with a monk heal they should add different heal amounts if the monk uses it on self or on target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage</DIV> <DIV>Damage seems to be inline when comparing brawlers to each other. It is a bit off when comparing brawlers to others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some issues to fill this area.</DIV> <DIV>Bruisers hate their proc buffs.</DIV> <DIV>Monks think their haste is a dead end ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Utility</DIV> <DIV>Utility also seems balance between the two. Giving monks a bruiser ability that dead ended at 50 seemed like a backhand to the face, but it was nice to get something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok now derailing to raid usefulness. I dont have any clue how to do this well. I feel bad that the developers painted themselves into such a sad corner. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The best I could come up with is debuffing abilities. Give monks abilities that debuff att speed, dps, str, int, and attack skills. Give bruisers abilities that debuff, mit, resist, wis, agi, and defense skills. This would give them added utility and increase their ability to do their respected job focus in smaller groups as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem with this is that if you make the abilities stack with scout, mage, and priest ones.....bring on the cries of content being marginalized and huge nerfs all around. Or watch as enemies have their difficulty cranked up so the change is moot, and we all remember how well this worked when they decided avoidance was overpowering. In fact, dont remember, go play and see how it feels seeing as this is ongoing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway I am going to wind down now. BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD this is a real issue, please dont let this go another 9 mos with no corrections.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Az</DIV> <DIV>Nek</DIV> <DIV>70 monk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[HydroTsuna]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>No offense but it's always been a hot topic.. just an overlooked diluted one....For way to long. This should stay at the top of the heep.. and I feel all monks should voice on it.It will most likely as we know *track record* in hand do anything.. but atleast it's a somewhat step in the right direction.Again I thank Mr Gaige and others I back about this long and needed problem. and appreciate their knowledgeable input, that is all from me! MONK ON! lolPuab Closk FTW!Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory!<div></div><p>Message Edited by HydroTsunami on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:54 PM</span>

[selch]

I say we either put this on sticky or make a whole good list of "Monk Issues" for a sticky... <div></div>

[XKalibure]

<DIV>I think the big problem is that monks are the hybrid in EQ2. In EQ they had a very easily definable role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problems:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They (brawlers) cannot tank as well as other fighter classes (or even some scouts).</DIV> <DIV>They (brawlers) cannot DPS as well as scouts (and even some fighters).</DIV> <DIV>Their (brawlers) utility, while greater to themselves than others, is still underwhelming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does that just about cover the issue then? Performing under par in just about every area rather than excelling in one and lacking in others or coming out about even all around? (and yes, under par is still "all around", but you know where I'm going).</DIV>

[Zheen]

<div></div>But it is sure a fun gosh durn class to play<div></div><p>Message Edited by Zheen on <span class=date_text>09-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 PM</span>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Zheen wrote:<div></div>But it is sure a fun gosh durn class to play<div></div><p>Message Edited by Zheen on <span class=date_text>09-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 PM</span><hr></blockquote>"SOLO" yes, "GROUP PLAY" (aka also ROLES) no...- X group, looking for tank...- I'm a monk, can I join?- You can't tank there, we only have one healer..- Y group, looking for DPS...- I'm a monk, can I join?- Heh, your DPS not well enough, may be if we can't find other 8 classes..It is sad to hear many guilds booting their monks & SK's for they don't need them in any area.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 AM</span>

[Zheen]

What I meant was if you are unhappy with the class, then hang up the GI for awhile until its fixed. Don't play a class that you are dissapointed with because that's just a waste of time and energy. What I DO think is that a thread needs to be started that includes a list of consolodated issues that the community has about the monk class. The thread title should be something not accusational or whiney. The more facts the better. Everyone should try and contibute as much as possible, so that it is obvious it is coming from the majority of the community.<div></div>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Zheen wrote:What I meant was if you are unhappy with the class, then hang up the GI for awhile until its fixed. Don't play a class that you are dissapointed with because that's just a waste of time and energy. What I DO think is that a thread needs to be started that includes a list of consolodated issues that the community has about the monk class. The thread title should be something not accusational or whiney. The more facts the better. Everyone should try and contibute as much as possible, so that it is obvious it is coming from the majority of the community.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, I would have betrayed already if wife wanted too with this disappointment. No, I'm playing other classes atm, mystic, swashbuckler and berzerker obviously. I don't need pathetic Gi which everyone tells '...But you have Gi, why are not you happy with it?...' So for now, I'm waiting on renewal and fixes. Not more Gi's...