Request: Tanking Advice

[Athenodorus]

Thanks for taking the time to read (and, I hope, reply to) this post! I have a few questions about tanking as a monk, and as I am fairly new to EQ2, I figured asking the experienced and wise monk community for advice would be a good start. First, do you reccomend focusing on sta/agi for hp and avoidance, or on strength for aggro? Second, I seem to have a lot of problems holding aggro off healers and dps. I did manage to pick up the Masters of Rescue and Silent Threat (the 31 taunt) -- lucky drops! However my own player skill is lacking. How do you best hold aggro as a monk? When I _do_ hold aggro well, I consume a lot of power. Do you find monk tanking to be power inefficient, or am I doing something wrong? I took power regen as my first hp/power/hp+/power+ trait choice to counter this a bit. I hear riposte damage can hurt at higher levels, so should I switch from a pair of fistwraps to a 2-handed staff?

[Timaarit]

1. Go for str/sta, in that order 2. I use my group taunt first, then if the area is clear, I use my AE. Then I start switching targets and hitting them and taunting when ever it is up. Though if there are no people in group who do big AE's, I tend to stick on one target and just use my group taunt whenever it is up. Oh, and of course I keep my hate proc on. 3. All tanks use a lot of power when keeping aggro from the rest of the group. Or at least it seems so. Remember that tank is the one who engages first and thus goes to combat mode and also starts using power first. So you are not using any more power than normally, you just use it longer than the rest of the group. 4. Ripostes are possibly bad only if you are fighting orange con mobs. Which you as a monk propably wont be tanking. At least not for long <span><span>:smileytongue:. So pick the one you like more, 2h bo staffs has nice animation at least. </span></span> <div></div>

[Microphage]

<P>The conventional wisdom is that Brawlers (monks & bruisers) are fantastic at holding single target agro, and have problems with multi-target agro.  My experiene follows the same line.  Adding an AOE oriented AA line (Wisdom) helps a lot with maintaining group hate.</P> <P>I can also relate to the healer problem.  This always seems to occur when I have to do body pulls.  I usually get  an AOE taunt off in time to prevent the healer from being eaten, but there have been some close calls.  I believe the problem is that reactives/wards generate hate for the healer when you get hit.  If you do a body pull, and the mobs hit you, the only hate that gets generated is toward the healer.  </P> <P> </P>

[Snorm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Microphage wrote:<BR> <P>I can also relate to the healer problem.  This always seems to occur when I have to do body pulls.  I usually get  an AOE taunt off in time to prevent the healer from being eaten, but there have been some close calls.  I believe the problem is that reactives/wards generate hate for the healer when you get hit.  If you do a body pull, and the mobs hit you, the only hate that gets generated is toward the healer. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's a problem for tanks of any kind, and a lot of it rests in the hands of the healers (and other classes for that matter) knowing not to generate aggro before you can get some aggro on the mob. One thing I do (as a guard) is use Sentry Watch on pulls that I know can be a problem. Not sure if monks get anything like that, but it will basically take the hit that would have killed someone in my group and transfer the damage to me, as well as some hate. Also, I throw an intercede on the cleric at times, because they seem to be the one the mob goes after first, and I know monks get that.</P> <P>Snorm - 70 Guard</P>

[Microphage]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snorm wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Microphage wrote:<BR> <P>I can also relate to the healer problem.  This always seems to occur when I have to do body pulls.  I usually get  an AOE taunt off in time to prevent the healer from being eaten, but there have been some close calls.  I believe the problem is that reactives/wards generate hate for the healer when you get hit.  If you do a body pull, and the mobs hit you, the only hate that gets generated is toward the healer. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's a problem for tanks of any kind, and a lot of it rests in the hands of the healers (and other classes for that matter) knowing not to generate aggro before you can get some aggro on the mob. One thing I do (as a guard) is use Sentry Watch on pulls that I know can be a problem. Not sure if monks get anything like that, but it will basically take the hit that would have killed someone in my group and transfer the damage to me, as well as some hate. Also, I throw an intercede on the cleric at times, because they seem to be the one the mob goes after first, and I know monks get that.</P> <P>Snorm - 70 Guard</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Intercede is nice, but is only good for a single mob, I try to keep that in reserve for emergencies.  We do have a CA that allows us to take a % of the damage from one hit on another toon.  It used to be horribly bugged but has been recently fixed, I never use it, but I think I may start using it with messy pulls.

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>I agree with the above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A typical group pull for me goes:  1. Body Pull, 2. AoE Taunt, 3. AoE attack(s), 4. Cycle through the MoBs and hit them with single taunt/CA until all are dead.  The last bit helps a lot in keeping aggro, but you will need to either have the DPS in the group /assist you or use a different character as main assist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For single MoBs, they stick to monks like glue.  Only time I lose aggro is on body pulls with healers who are too anxious on reactives or occasionally on Ice Nova.</DIV>

[Athenodorus]

Thank you all for the advice. It's already helped me a good bit. Now, about gear: I have heard that the level of the item affects how well it will protect you, as much as mitigation and stats. If this is true, does it mean I should update my cuirboilli (T3 rare) pieces to etched (T4 common) when fighting beasties over level 30? The etched pieces have the same mitigation and 8 more "levels", but much worse stats. If not, would the expense of upgrading to T4 rare be worth it? <div></div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Athenodorus wrote:<BR><BR>Thanks for taking the time to read (and, I hope, reply to) this post! I have a few questions about tanking as a monk, and as I am fairly new to EQ2, I figured asking the experienced and wise monk community for advice would be a good start.<BR><BR>First, do you reccomend focusing on sta/agi for hp and avoidance, or on strength for aggro? <BR><BR>Second, I seem to have a lot of problems holding aggro off healers and dps. I did manage to pick up the Masters of Rescue and Silent Threat (the 31 taunt) -- lucky drops! However my own player skill is lacking. How do you best hold aggro as a monk?<BR><BR>When I _do_ hold aggro well, I consume a lot of power. Do you find monk tanking to be power inefficient, or am I doing something wrong? I took power regen as my first hp/power/hp+/power+ trait choice to counter this a bit.<BR><BR>I hear riposte damage can hurt at higher levels, so should I switch from a pair of fistwraps to a 2-handed staff?<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is the best advice I can give you...  go Bruiser or go Plate tank<STRONG><U><EM><FONT size=7>.</FONT></EM></U></STRONG> (period emphasized)

[Athenodorus]

That is rather depressing. I keep hearing the opposite too, though. <div></div>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>Bah.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are some imbalances right now, but Monks can tank <EM><STRONG>all</STRONG> </EM>heroic content in the game just fine, thanks.  And over time, be more efficient at it than a plate tank.  The places where the differences show up and make it impractical for us to tank are on epic names.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to your equipment question, mitigation scales with respect to YOUR level against the MoB, so you wouldn't want to go T3 rare to T4 common.  That said, you will want to go to T4 rare as soon as you can -- a few points of mitigation and some extra avoidance makes a lot of difference to us.   </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Morrolan V wrote:<div>Bah.</div> <div> </div> <div>There are some imbalances right now, but Monks can tank <em><strong>all</strong> </em>heroic content in the game just fine, thanks.  And over time, be more efficient at it than a plate tank.  The places where the differences show up and make it impractical for us to tank are on epic names.</div> <div> </div> <div>As to your equipment question, mitigation scales with respect to YOUR level against the MoB, so you wouldn't want to go T3 rare to T4 common.  That said, you will want to go to T4 rare as soon as you can -- a few points of mitigation and some extra avoidance makes a lot of difference to us.   </div><hr></blockquote>We can tank it all right. But the way we do is far from fine. A plate tank with legendary gear can tank HoF with no casualties. With an equally geared monk, you never know.<div></div>

[ThE_GuN]

Try tanking the den with 2 summoners and a warlock, tabbing to taunt the other monsters and the summoners pets steal agro, dont tab and the warlock takes it, god I hate mages *grins* <div></div>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>Morrolan V wrote:<div>Bah.</div><div> </div><div>There are some imbalances right now, but Monks can tank <em><strong>all</strong> </em>heroiccontent in the game just fine, thanks.  And over time, be moreefficient at it than a plate tank.  The places where thedifferences show up and make it impractical for us to tank are on epicnames.</div><div> </div><div>As to your equipment question, mitigation scales with respect toYOUR level against the MoB, so you wouldn't want to go T3 rare to T4common.  That said, you will want to go to T4 rare as soon as youcan -- a few points of mitigation and some extra avoidance makes alot of difference to us.   </div><hr></blockquote>Wecan tank it all right. But the way we do is far from fine. A plate tankwith legendary gear can tank HoF with no casualties. With an equallygeared monk, you never know.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Well, tanking HoF in Legendaries as Monk is not a problem beside the nameds (at least after changes and still if cured on time) however Nameds got the upper hand here. Either you are loosing aggro so quick to healer because you have to get healed a lot, too much spike & dots or simply let die against nameds in there. Either way, trashes can be done within Legendaries, but seems no way for the nameds.I repeat, that's in (non-raid dropped) Legendary gear.Named "heroics" generally is a big issue for someone like me in Legendaries. I can not tank them efficiently, no lies. Trashes of HoF barely if not in more than one group, nameds, not a chance there... On the other hand, considering them "heroics" still, I would not say we can tank 100% of all heroics even in Legendary gear. Fabled might change dices lot, but not in Legendary.We should underline a difference here:Equipping fully fabled equipment and telling they can tank 100% of heroic content is not something comparable. Heroic's equivalent is Legendary, Epic's equivalent is Fabled. So as much as I can say I can solo every solo mob 100% within Legendaries, that would not be comprasion either. I am just thinking it is simply like "As tough as tanking Epics within Fableds, it is nearly as tough as tanking heroics within Legendaries" , doable, ofcourse, even some might be very easy... but as you said, not without casualties especially on nameds which tends to have higher attack rating to reduce avoidance values to pathetic degrees...<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:32 PM</span>

[JudyJudy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morrolan V wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bah.</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>There are some imbalances right now, but Monks can tank <EM><STRONG>all</STRONG> </EM>heroic<BR>content in the game just fine, thanks.  And over time, be more<BR>efficient at it than a plate tank.  The places where the<BR>differences show up and make it impractical for us to tank are on epic<BR>names.</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>As to your equipment question, mitigation scales with respect to<BR>YOUR level against the MoB, so you wouldn't want to go T3 rare to T4<BR>common.  That said, you will want to go to T4 rare as soon as you<BR>can -- a few points of mitigation and some extra avoidance makes a<BR>lot of difference to us.   </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>We<BR>can tank it all right. But the way we do is far from fine. A plate tank<BR>with legendary gear can tank HoF with no casualties. With an equally<BR>geared monk, you never know.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Well, tanking HoF in Legendaries as Monk is not a problem beside the nameds (at least after changes and still if cured on time) however Nameds got the upper hand here. Either you are loosing aggro so quick to healer because you have to get healed a lot, too much spike & dots or simply let die against nameds in there. Either way, trashes can be done within Legendaries, but seems no way for the nameds.<BR><BR>I repeat, that's in (non-raid dropped) Legendary gear.<BR><BR>Named "heroics" generally is a big issue for someone like me in Legendaries. I can not tank them efficiently, no lies. Trashes of HoF barely if not in more than one group, nameds, not a chance there... On the other hand, considering them "heroics" still, I would not say we can tank 100% of all heroics even in Legendary gear. Fabled might change dices lot, but not in Legendary.<BR><BR>We should underline a difference here:<BR><BR>Equipping fully fabled equipment and telling they can tank 100% of heroic content is not something comparable. Heroic's equivalent is Legendary, Epic's equivalent is Fabled. So as much as I can say I can solo every solo mob 100% within Legendaries, that would not be comprasion either. <BR><BR>I am just thinking it is simply like "As tough as tanking Epics within Fableds, it is nearly as tough as tanking heroics within Legendaries" , doable, ofcourse, even some might be very easy... but as you said, not without casualties especially on nameds which tends to have higher attack rating to reduce avoidance values to pathetic degrees... <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>09-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:32 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>Monks can tank fine - though we need our avoidance looked at and possible mitigation bonuses from the upcoming AA additions in the EoF expansion.</EM></P> <P><EM>I've tanked many a heroic instance with only 2 fable pieces of armor and wielding my SPOON from DoF - this includes HoF.</EM></P> <P><EM>I just had the opportunity to tank and hold agro on the Doom Prophet in labs while the raid dropped the other two.  Held agro fine, healers didn't have a problem.</EM></P> <P><EM>It's all about making the best of the class.  Player skill will always dominate over class mechanics.  The only thing you need once player skill is met is the faith of your teammates.  Once you have that - anything is possible.  Anything.</EM><BR></P>

[selch]

That includes best group setup Kaio and best raid setup allowing you to have good mitigation to make it happen. "Monks tank just fine when best setup possible, that's when Brigands can tank too" "Monks can do mitigation tanking in raids" yeah, a brigand would do it better if buffed as a tank.Since I don't know whatever those two fabled pieces are (or some may be raid dropped legendaries), it makes +500 mitigation difference solo (as I know your solo mitigation from our chats with 2 fabled pieces). That's not something to be underestimated.Best of class you said... How about comparing best of other tank classes to yourself as best of monks?<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 AM</span>

[JudyJudy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR>That includes best group setup Kaio and best raid setup allowing you to have good mitigation to make it happen. "Monks tank just fine when best setup possible, that's when Brigands can tank too" "Monks can do mitigation tanking in raids" yeah, a brigand would do it better if buffed as a tank.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>To be honest - it was a very poor group set up.  Four fighters and two healers in the group I was in, and no - one wasn't a pally.  I had a fury and a templar keeping me up.  My mit was standing at about 4200 and about 4700 every 30 seconds or so when skin like mountain was available.</EM></P> <P><EM>No doubt brigands can tank as well as we can when the said brigand is buffed to do so.  But to be honest, what a brigand can and can't do only concerns me to the point of understanding their role in groups and raids.  Beyond that, comparing myself to other classes only leads to self doubt and frustration.</EM><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR><BR>Since I don't know whatever those two fabled pieces are (or some may be raid dropped legendaries), it makes +500 mitigation difference solo (as I know your solo mitigation from our chats with 2 fabled pieces). That's not something to be underestimated.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><EM>You're right, I probably shouldn't have downplayed it as I did.  The two pieces i have are the eye boots and the fright gloves.  With dark chitin I'm sitting at around 3300, with light at around 3440ish.  Believe me, that is definitely not the high end.  Fully fabled monks blow these numbers out of the water.</EM><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR><BR>Best of class you said... How about comparing best of other tank classes to yourself as best of monks?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>My brother, I am far from best of the monks.  The only time I ever compare myself to other tanks is for the purpose of understanding and learning my role better.  My statement was referring to making the best of what we have.</EM><BR><BR></P>

[Almeric_CoS]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Athenodorus wrote:<BR><BR>When I _do_ hold aggro well, I consume a lot of power. Do you find monk tanking to be power inefficient, or am I doing something wrong? I took power regen as my first hp/power/hp+/power+ trait choice to counter this a bit.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Once you get the Dragon Stance (taunt proc) line, you can conserve power by using fewer damage combat abilities.  Throwing taunts every time they reset does use a lot of power, and you will always need to do that when tanking for a group, but you won't neccesarily need to use your expensive high-damage skills.</P> <P>Achievement skills aside, when tanking for a group that has high DPS I usually just use my defense debuff, stifle (obtained at level 50), and my stun skills.  I let my strong autoattack damage and taunt proc handle the rest and it saves a bit on power-regen downtime.</P>

[Cyngii]

I rarely have problems with single target encounters, but multiple targets are just a bear. I'll typically body pull, cast the single target taunt while running back, cast group taunt once the group has kinda formed up (i've had troubles in the past with not all the mobs being hit by the group taunt if they are too far apart). Then once i get to the group i will use Dragon Breath and go from there. I rarely use Crescent Strike since the cast time is so dang long that someone usually grabs agro by the time it actually casts. You can cycle targets, but with only having the 1 single target taunt it can be a rough go while waiting for it to pop. Unless i'm using Crane Flock (sure fire way to lock down agro btw <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), or have someone transfering hate, about any AEing "DPS" class can pull agro from me against grouped mobs. That's with master 1 taunt, group taunt, Dragonbreath, and storm advance.

[Athenodorus]

After I got Dragon Stance I did indeed have a lot less trouble holding aggro on single targets, which is a relief. Also a bit of practice helped a lot. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I join you in your annoyance over the cast time of mountain stance and the AE. Cyngii, you mentioned the wis (crane) line; what do you think of it overall? I just got my second AA point and am considering starting into crane in order to help with my encounter aggro. How often can you use Crane Flock? Does the "middle" ability help much? <div></div>

[Kelson]

<P>I am a a 20 something Monk and I too have noticed that when I am MT, my power plummets at a speed that is just plain scarey.</P> <P>I've decided that I need to tone down how many CAs I use when I am MT and save those for offtanking.  Since taunting takes a lot of power, I'll focus almost solely on taunting and using my aoe attack whenever it's up (and is safe to do so) to help hold encounter aggro.</P> <P>I can't wait until I get my buff that allows me to build hate with every hit.  That should allow me to single taunt a bit less and use more CAs.</P> <P>I also agree with those who use their encounter taunt when they pull.  I can't tell you enough how much that helps the dps and healers in the group!  When I play one of my squishies, I am often in a position of politely asking the MT to use their encounter taunts when pulling.  Otherwise, a lot of stray aggro occurs.</P> <P>I plan on speccing my Wis AA line first because as a Monk I need all the aoe aggro holding help I can get, lol!  I only plan on getting the first 3 abilities, however (including the Wisdom stat boost).  I actually plan on getting the first 3 abilities in Wisdom (for more aoe usefulness), then Stamina (for the damage proc), then Intelligence (for melee crits).  None of my other characters spec in 3 AA lines, but it seems to be the most bang for the buck for us Monks and fills in the aoe gap a bit.</P> <P>-Scrappy</P> <P>Message Edited by Kelson13 on <SPAN class=date_text>09-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:57 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Kelson13 on <span class=date_text>09-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:03 AM</span>