The Monk, Time is Running out

[Ethelwo]

<DIV>Here is a sad fact that amounts to a complete nerf of the enitre monk class. Total nerfage hasn't happened yet but its not far away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every other melee player is hasting upward. On raids every group is haste buffed to the max. Most other melees have something else besides haste to bring, but not monks. I can see it coming SoEs long slow plan to end the Monk class unless some timely changes arn't made and made soon. There is a point where the haste of other melee types will make us undesired in raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They need to add some monk only items to the game that add dps mods, if they don't, the writing is on the wall, and the monk will fade to black.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every time another class loots a +haste item you just got nerfed.</DIV>

[Tauch]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ethelwolf wrote: <div>Every time another class loots a +haste item you just got nerfed.</div><hr></blockquote>Would you reccomend cancelling our group haste when it comes raid time, then?</div>

[Tamo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here is a sad fact that amounts to a complete nerf of the enitre monk class. Total nerfage hasn't happened yet but its not far away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every other melee player is hasting upward. On raids every group is haste buffed to the max. Most other melees have something else besides haste to bring, but not monks. I can see it coming SoEs long slow plan to end the Monk class unless some timely changes arn't made and made soon. There is a point where the haste of other melee types will make us undesired in raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They need to add some monk only items to the game that add dps mods, if they don't, the writing is on the wall, and the monk will fade to black.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every time another class loots a +haste item you just got nerfed.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The sky is falling! The sky is falling!</P> <P> </P> <P>Seriously.... a complete nerfage of what? We dont have anything to nerf. Tsunami is currently messed up, avoidance doesn't work, we usually have the least amount of mitigation of all tank classes. Honestly... what are they going to do? Take away our group haste and FD? because at this time that's about all that works for us.</P> <P> </P> <P>We have a couple bugs at the moment... doesn't mean we have to throw in the towel all together.</P>

[Gaige]

Maybe max haste won't really be max haste for long.

[123467]

Why shouldn't it be, Gaige?It is way easier to balance something when there are hard caps around, because the you only have to worry about the caps, letting it be up to the players to reach it. Hard caps makes the developers life easy, why should they change that?(I don't agree with the OPs post, but I am curious about Gaige statement...)

[selch]

I take it as there won't be hard caps too long.

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div>Maybe max haste won't really be max haste for long.<hr></blockquote>I haven't known gaige forever, but in the time I have known him he never has wasted his words, so I would trust what he says.  He is the monk scrying stone use him wisely <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Also, has anyone ever actually parsed with over 100% haste to see if there is actually not a cap, maybe just a visual cap.</div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Also, has anyone ever actually parsed with over 100% haste to see if there is actually not a cap, maybe just a visual cap. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Both dps mod and haste cap at 100% currently.<BR>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> KazzySoJazzy wrote: <div>Also, has anyone ever actually parsed with over 100% haste to see if there is actually not a cap, maybe just a visual cap. <hr> </div></blockquote>Both dps mod and haste cap at 100% currently.<hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> KazzySoJazzy wrote: <div>Also, has anyone ever actually parsed with over 100% haste to see if there is actually not a cap, maybe just a visual cap. <hr> </div></blockquote>Both dps mod and haste cap at 100% currently.<hr></blockquote>Thanks bro asked this earlier on the worldwide chat also linpow answered.  Someone also mentioned somethign about removal of caps in the expansion *shrugs*  I would geuss that this means they will be revising the current caps to more appropriate levels for tier 7.5 ?</div>

[selch]

I don't think they will let "GOD-MODE ON" even caps are removed. There will be always some limitation either soft-caps or by itemization.

[Ethelwo]

<P>What I recomend Taucher is that you pay attention to in game trends. Here is what we know. More + haste loot drops are going to be added over time, but not any +dps loot drops. What that means over time is that monk group haste buff loses its value, but not bruisers group dps buff. The bruisers buff has nothing that drops that competes with it, but the monks group haste buff does.</P> <P> </P> <P>It is a nerf and the trend is that this nerf is only going to grow. Its just a matter of time before the monks group haste buff becomes marginalized and meaningless.</P>

[ke'la]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>What I recomend Taucher is that you pay attention to in game trends. Here is what we know. More + haste loot drops are going to be added over time, but not any +dps loot drops. What that means over time is that monk group haste buff loses its value, but not bruisers group dps buff. The bruisers buff has nothing that drops that competes with it, but the monks group haste buff does.</P> <P> </P> <P>It is a nerf and the trend is that this nerf is only going to grow. Its just a matter of time before the monks group haste buff becomes marginalized and meaningless.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Um howabout having a Monk in your group buffing haste gives you the ablity to drop that +haste Iteam and use a Procing time or an iteam that accually allows you to hit the Str cap. Just because an Iteam hast +haste does not mean there are not better options then it out there.

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Ethelwolf wrote:<P>What I recomend Taucher is that you pay attention to in game trends. Here is what we know. More + haste loot drops are going to be added over time, but not any +dps loot drops. What that means over time is that monk group haste buff loses its value, but not bruisers group dps buff. The bruisers buff has nothing that drops that competes with it, but the monks group haste buff does.</P><P> </P><P>It is a nerf and the trend is that this nerf is only going to grow. Its just a matter of time before the monks group haste buff becomes marginalized and meaningless.</P><hr></blockquote>There are better DPS battery classes than Bruisers.

[tass]

dont know about haste nerfs, but I like being able to self haste my attacks by 68%.<div></div>

[Code2501]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> Maybe max haste won't really be max haste for long.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sure Gaige, just after they fix Mountain Stance to be instacast which coincidentaly is scheduled for 5 minutes after hell freezes over...</P> <P>I'm tired of waiting for some action by the Devs on these issues.</P>

[Cyngii]

I've personally stopped caring about DPS with my monk. I got so sick of hearing T1 and T2 DPS classes whining every time a monk broke into the top 3-5 in raid dps that i've truly stopped caring. Even if the Haste cap is raised, does it really matter? As soon as we start doing more damage than any other class, our DPS will be adjusted to fall within the DPS tree structure like has already been done. I'm more intersted in seeing how the new AA paths will impact mitigation/avoidance.

[Cirth_Beer]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cyngii a écrit:I've personally stopped caring about DPS with my monk. I got so sick of hearing T1 and T2 DPS classes whining every time a monk broke into the top 3-5 in raid dps that i've truly stopped caring. Even if the Haste cap is raised, does it really matter? As soon as we start doing more damage than any other class, our DPS will be adjusted to fall within the DPS tree structure like has already been done. I'm more intersted in seeing how the new AA paths will impact mitigation/avoidance.<hr></blockquote>well if we can tank as a guardian they will have us nerfed ... we have no room in the game in fact <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[circusgirl]

<DIV>I'm in my mid 50s and with self-buffs and my FBSS I can already self-buff haste to 100%.  That really doesn't leave much room for me to grow.  </DIV>

[Supp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cyngii wrote:<BR>I've personally stopped caring about DPS with my monk. I got so sick of hearing T1 and T2 DPS classes whining every time a monk broke into the top 3-5 in raid dps that i've truly stopped caring. Even if the Haste cap is raised, does it really matter? As soon as we start doing more damage than any other class, our DPS will be adjusted to fall within the DPS tree structure like has already been done. I'm more intersted in seeing how the new AA paths will impact mitigation/avoidance.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#cccccc>Im kind of in the same boat Cyngii. I'm more of a DPSing type myself, but every time we get some headway, we get kicked back down. Bruiser has more mit and more dps, does that sound right to you? But hey, we have the cool hat. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>I feel as maxed out as I can get on dps. So lately, I've been working on my mit. Every extra 100 I get sure is pain to achieve, but what else is there for me to do? When I twobox, I sure wanna be able to take a few hits. I'm desperately hoping that the monk specific AA line gives me a +100 to mit for every AA I use on a given spot for example. An extra 800 mit would be amazingly appreciated. Even if it just gets me back on par with what bruisers get by default while they pull even further ahead on dps with their AA's, I would still really appreciate it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cccccc>Ive been hearing the rumors of fixing our avoidance forever. I've seen no distinction for our avoidance vs everyone else's avoidance being upgraded. At this moment, I've got no reason to believe anything will be done about it because it's been getting discussed for so long.</FONT></P>

[Cyngii]

Don't get me wrong I'll always be loyal to my monk and the monk community, but I'm not too thrilled with the monk class as it sits right now. I've never had any issues with single group encounters (well since LU 13 anyway). When it comes to questing, we have it pretty dang easy actually. My problems stem from raiding. Although we can tank raid mobs, there is no reason for us to since guardians do it better. We do good relatively mediocre DPS at this point, so there is no reason to choose a monk to fill a "DPS" role on a raid when there are 8 other classes at this point that out DPS us (that i can think of). When it gets down to raiding, what it comes down to is what utility does a monk bring to the table? Is there a reason to ever have more than 1 monk on a raid?1) Monks aren't or are rarely used in the main tank group so the avoidance buff is for the most part worthless. More or less I'm casting it on someone random just so i can get the couple % increase to my own avoidance.2) GFD is a novelty since invariably enough people will die within agro range of the named that half your raid is reviving and running back anyway.3) Group haste... I think this is strictly hit or miss as to how usefull our group haste really is. Our guild is heavy on mage DPS at which point our monk group haste buff does less overall damage increase than say taking another T1 or even T2 DPS class. 4) Tsunami... I don't know about other monks but i find myself cursing Tsunami more than anything else and use it less and less.In a nutshell we are a versatile class. Our versatility is great in group situations, but i don't see it carrying over to raiding atm.

[Zabjade]

<div></div><font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">I wonder if we should take this (make a similar post but form it as a Question) to the Test or Gameplay forums. I don't know if any Devs even troll here to care about us, much less even play a Monk. Downside of course would be people calling for us to be further nerfed, and outright trolls. On subject, We could use a Mit buff or at least a Resist Buff. WE need MORE group taunts and we need avoidance fixed. and probably many more. </font></font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zabjade on <span class=date_text>09-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:31 PM</span>

[Quijonsith]

<div></div>Yes, people can get haste items.  Now let me ask this, is any class able to self buff to 100% haste besides monk? (that's a serious question).  Monk group haste stacks with the haste people get from gear.  That means that the people sitting at 82% or less get a bonus from the monk group buff. (Derived that number from monks buffing my templar from 42% to 60%).  Do I think we need some love, yes most absolutely.  Do I think the sky is falling as the OP suggests, no.  I've seen group feign death insure that the entire raid doesn't have to run back, instead being able to rez each other right there where we fell if the perverbial crap hit the fan.  We regularly use monks in the MT group for the avoidance buff on the MT because monks have the most avoidance.  We've even had a monk turn on dragon advance (don't know the T7 version name) to be an amends target for a pally MT.  As far as nerf crying anytime a monk gets in the top 4 DPS on a raid, my templar has managed to do so (once, and this was parsing personal DPS, not encounter length DPS) in the melee DPS group so meh.  I would like to see some differentiation between how much of a brawler's avoidance is ignored by raid mobs compared to how much plate tank avoidance is ignored.  In City of Heroes the defense system is almost entirely avoidance based and has a cap of 95%.  I think another differntiation that should be made is to raise the avoidance cap of brawlers and lower the avoidance cap of fighters.  Maybe have tower shields providing part avoidance and part mitigation due to their size, rather than all avoidance.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class=date_text>09-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 PM</span>

[DarkSkador]

<DIV> I don't know about you guys but I am damm proud to be a monk and yes we can use some improvements however think the good thing we can do. I can even tell you how manny time I had save the whole Raid because our FD and FDG or when you tank a mob and pull more than you can handle we can aways FD and not figth them no like other classes when they tank once they hit the mob there not turning back. </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zabjade wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#66ff00><FONT size=2><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I wonder if we should take this (make a similar post but form it as a Question) to the Test or Gameplay forums. I don't know if any Devs even troll here to care about us, much less even play a Monk.</FONT></FONT></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think posting here you'll get heard just fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Zabjade]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zabjade wrote: <div></div><font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">I wonder if we should take this (make a similar post but form it as a Question) to the Test or Gameplay forums. I don't know if any Devs even troll here to care about us, much less even play a Monk.</font></font></font> <hr> </blockquote>I think posting here you'll get heard just fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote><font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Unless your a dev in disguise <span>:smileywink:</span> haven't seen many Devs post here. <span>:smileytongue:</span> but we do tend to be the Red-headed Step child of tanks we arn't as bad as the Rangers yet...</font></font></font><div></div>

[Ethelwo]

<P>Listen all, the train hasn't crashed yet on the haste trend, but were all L70 now and the game is designed for a Level cap of at Least 100. My worries are what its going to be like down the road as the trend is set. I also play a zerker and a ranger, You bet I want the highest haste items I can get my hands on for these character and even for my monk. At T7 the best item haste you can get is 23%, I can see that growing to around 33% by the 80s and maybe reach 40% by level 100. As these items continue to offer ever more haste our group haste buff becomes less needed. If they did raise the cap on haste, it doesn't mean a whole lot, your weapons have their own cap.</P>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ethelwolf wrote:<div></div> <p>Listen all, the train hasn't crashed yet on the haste trend, but were all L70 now and the game is designed for a Level cap of at Least 100. My worries are what its going to be like down the road as the trend is set. I also play a zerker and a ranger, You bet I want the highest haste items I can get my hands on for these character and even for my monk. At T7 the best item haste you can get is 23%, I can see that growing to around 33% by the 80s and maybe reach 40% by level 100. As these items continue to offer ever more haste our group haste buff becomes less needed. If they did raise the cap on haste, it doesn't mean a whole lot, your weapons have their own cap.</p><hr></blockquote>Only way weapons can be capped is if you have 200% haste imo.  There is no floor on delay that has been found  yet...  I mean look @ the skewer...As for the future levels, I hope I can someday drop everburning because I hate having my health go down, especially if I get the lazy healers in my group that night.</div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Cirth_Beer wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Cyngii a écrit:I've personally stopped caring about DPS with my monk. I got so sick of hearing T1 and T2 DPS classes whining every time a monk broke into the top 3-5 in raid dps that i've truly stopped caring. Even if the Haste cap is raised, does it really matter? As soon as we start doing more damage than any other class, our DPS will be adjusted to fall within the DPS tree structure like has already been done. I'm more intersted in seeing how the new AA paths will impact mitigation/avoidance.<hr></blockquote>well if we can tank as a guardian they will have us nerfed ... we have no room in the game in fact <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Bah, have you seen zerkers nerfed? They tank like guardians and have higher DPS than brawlers. But yes, we have no room in the game unless we solo.<div></div>

[Kronadin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>But yes, we have no room in the game unless we solo.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>... or if you have friends that like to have you in their group, no matter what. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kronadin wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:But yes, we have no room in the game unless we solo. <hr> </blockquote>... or if you have friends that like to have you in their group, no matter what. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Yeah, well, I have a templar and a conjurer too. They like to have me in the group, just not with my monk.<div></div>

[Mescali]

    They have to do something about our class.  In raids i am more cannon fodder than anything and with the massive amounts of aoe fights my ranged damage is at best mediocre.  I would just like to contribute something of SUBSTANCE to a raid force, not just FD or GFD.  That means i am there just to save peoples [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'s if we fail at a mob.  GIVE ME MEANING DEVS!!! DANCE THE DANCE OF LIFE!<div></div>

[Zabjade]

<blockquote><hr>Mescaline wrote:    <font color="#66ff00" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4"><u><b>They have to do something about our class.  In raids i am more cannon fodder than anything and with the massive amounts of aoe fights my ranged damage is at best mediocre.  I would just like to contribute something of SUBSTANCE to a raid force, not just FD or GFD.  That means i am there just to save peoples [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'s if we fail at a mob.  GIVE ME MEANING DEVS!!! DANCE THE DANCE OF LIFE! </b></u></font><div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Needed saying again. <span>:smileywink:</span></font></font></font><div></div>

[Nightt N'D]

<DIV>In my opinion the best thing that can be done for a monk would be for the Devs to fix how avoidance scales. We are supposed to be a tank but boy oh boy do those orange con mobs hurt! I feel that we are right where we need to be with the DPS it is just that the orange cons rip through us like wet toilet paper. I am not asking to be as good as one of those plate wearing pansies running around out there but we should at least be a viable option.</DIV>

[ArcticBlue182]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nightt N'Day wrote:<div>In my opinion the best thing that can be done for a monk would be for the Devs to fix how avoidance scales. We are supposed to be a tank but boy oh boy do those orange con mobs hurt! I feel that we are right where we need to be with the DPS it is just that the orange cons rip through us like wet toilet paper. I am not asking to be as good as one of those plate wearing pansies running around out there but we should at least be a viable option.</div><hr></blockquote>i asseme the above post is refering to tanking epics..., as i understand it avoidance V's epic content is being looked at and will be sorted out with the next expansion, IMO avoidence V's heroic content is just fine, any monk out there can tank any heroic content if they are in a resonable group.my only wish is for alittle more group utility, not to make us uber or anything like that just so we can offer alittle more to a raid group and even a normal group.and i really dont think monks are as poor as alot of people make out, i think alot of people out there whatever the class what to have their cake and eat it,, have best mit, avoidence, DPS, heals etc etc rolled into 1 toon, all the constant moaing makes me wonder if half the people have got past lvl 40 or know what they are actually doing.</div>

[Timaarit]

What I have seen from parses is that avoidance vs. solo and heroic content work as it should. Exeption from this are the named mobs. Any named mob will hit you more often than what they should be doing compared to avoidance. In addition, they swing more often and harder than regular mob. Also avoidance and mitigation scale differently with target con. These 3 things are what make avoidance tanks much worse than plate tanks in absorbing damage. <div></div>

[Nightt N'D]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i asseme the above post is refering to tanking epics..., as i understand it avoidance V's epic content is being looked at and will be sorted out with the next expansion, IMO avoidence V's heroic content is just fine, any monk out there can tank any heroic content if they are in a resonable group.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well that's good to know. I look forward to see what they come up with. I have to agree with Arctic, more group utility would always be a good thing but I am not sure what they can give us that would not broach another classes utility. Perhaps a raising of the haste cap as i have seen mentioned before might be the answer.<BR><p>Message Edited by Nightt N'Day on <span class=date_text>09-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:29 AM</span>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>ArcticBlue182 wrote:i asseme the above post is refering to tanking epics..., as i understand it avoidance V's epic content is being looked at and will be sorted out with the next expansion, IMO avoidence V's heroic content is just fine, any monk out there can tank any heroic content if they are in a resonable group.<hr></blockquote>Keyword: Reasonable group...No, they don't need to find "reasonable" group to be able to tank. Do plates look for reasonable group to be able to tank? I didnt think so. Same goes for Monks. Brawler Avoidance should not scale to make things equal. Epics are just multiplied health & strength values of heroics. Heroics use the same mechanism as Epics on Avoidance. They just having lesser Attack rating than Epics, that's reason they "can" miss more and that is the reason why we see lesser avoidance going by tiers of mobs. What we see as avoidance is against solo mobs and it reduces by every mob tier that going up. But mitigation? Heh, it stays same vs solo mobs , same vs epic mobs...<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:41 AM</span>

[ArcticBlue182]

<div><blockquote><hr>selch wrote:<blockquote><hr>ArcticBlue182 wrote:i asseme the above post is refering to tanking epics..., as i understand it avoidance V's epic content is being looked at and will be sorted out with the next expansion, IMO avoidence V's heroic content is just fine, any monk out there can tank any heroic content if they are in a resonable group.<hr></blockquote>Keyword: Reasonable group...No, they don't need to find "reasonable" group to be able to tank. Do plates look for reasonable group to be able to tank? I didnt think so. Same goes for Monks. Brawler Avoidance should not scale to make things equal. Epics are just multiplied health & strength values of heroics. Heroics use the same mechanism as Epics on Avoidance. They just having lesser Attack rating than Epics, that's reason they "can" miss more and that is the reason why we see lesser avoidance going by tiers of mobs. What we see as avoidance is against solo mobs and it reduces by every mob tier that going up. But mitigation? Heh, it stays same vs solo mobs , same vs epic mobs...<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">09-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:41 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>so are you trying to tell me that for a monk to tank heroic content they must have a "great" group or they cannot do it ? if so then im sorry but your talking rubbish, ive read alot of your posts on here mate and i usually agree with alot of what you have to say.. but there seems to be alot of people out here who read this type of thread then say they cannot do x or y when quite simply we can.my monk is lvl 70 i have no fabled or relic items and i have only just got some of the good items from the claymore quest line yet for the past few months i have been able to tank every T7 heroic instance in the game with no problems what so ever, i can do nest and den with 1 warden and 1 swashy (guild mates) with no problems at all as im sure other can and have, the only problems i have had for example is trying to tank in labs against some of the epic content in there, but given the right gourp setup and healers who didnt slack im sure i could do a better job, maybe not as good a plate tank but still i know i could do better.so back to your reply... what exactly are you trying to say ?</div>

[selch]

Question is:Are you mitigation tanking or avoidance tanking... If avoidance, please can you parse "hit/swing" ratio.. Thanks...

[ArcticBlue182]

the truth is i really dont know.. i dont run parses, i play this game to have fun simple as that, im told and ive read post on here by other monks who have been playing the game alot longer than i have (1 year) and seem to have ran these "test" that avoidence is working fine against all heroic content but does not scale down very well against epics, i have no reason not to believe this.i guess i could run a program or 2 to see what is actually happening then come on here and moan like am old woman if i find its not working 100% as it should, but like i said i play the game for fun, doing that would turn the game into a job and i have 1 of those and dont want another, were lead to believe that SOE have known about this problem for a while and are going to try and fix it with the next expansion, so why dont everyone just enjoy playing the monk class and wait and see what happens.<div></div>

[selch]

I'm just telling it is "NOT" a problem of just epics.It is a problem of scaling at ANY tier. Epics , yes, that is MOST visible, lesser visible than epics on NAMEDS, lesser visible on heroics.But this scaling is what makes us much less functional in any group.

[PrimusPilus]

<blockquote><hr>ArcticBlue182 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Nightt N'Day wrote:<div>In my opinion the best thing that can be done for a monk would be for the Devs to fix how avoidance scales. We are supposed to be a tank but boy oh boy do those orange con mobs hurt! I feel that we are right where we need to be with the DPS it is just that the orange cons rip through us like wet toilet paper. I am not asking to be as good as one of those plate wearing pansies running around out there but we should at least be a viable option.</div><hr></blockquote>i asseme the above post is refering to tanking epics..., as i understand it avoidance V's epic content is being looked at and will be sorted out with the next expansion, IMO avoidence V's heroic content is just fine, any monk out there can tank any heroic content if they are in a resonable group.my only wish is for alittle more group utility, not to make us uber or anything like that just so we can offer alittle more to a raid group and even a normal group.and i really dont think monks are as poor as alot of people make out, i think alot of people out there whatever the class what to have their cake and eat it,, have best mit, avoidence, DPS, heals etc etc rolled into 1 toon, all the constant moaing makes me wonder if half the people have got past lvl 40 or know what they are actually doing.</div><hr></blockquote>I have already suggested a buff to the monk to fix avoidence scaling without effecting other classes. The idea is either one buff that acts differently depending on the type (epic/heroic/solo, named and non named) and level of the mob, or if that is hard to program, seperate buffs for each mob type, say one for level 72 heroic non named (probably not needed), another for 72 named, another for 72 epic non named, another for 72 epic named, etc. Such buffs need not be visible to the player or take up concentration. It can just add such amounts and types of avoidence as the Devs testing shows is needed and not game breaking. In this way avoidence for monks would appear to scale less steeply since it would effectivly be higher, even though the basic avoidence numbers stay the same before the buff is applied. My idea has the advantage of being simple, workable (it uses existing programming, ie buffs), and doesn't mess with the underlying avoidence program for other classes so there is no great amount of game wide changes needed. The one disadvantage is that it needs extensive and comprehensive testing to make sure that some clever players don't find ways to make themselves untouchable.It could be for all bruisers and monks, one size fits all, or better seperatly so that they can be tweaked individually. It can be for all brawlers, or some or all of it could be put as a power (or seperate levels of a power, or speperate powers of increasing level) in the new subclass achievment trees. Probably the best way is a mixture of some smaller buff for all brawlers, and then one or more powers in the "tank" line of a subclass achievement tree. The restult could be that a "tank monk" who went all the way down the "tank" line of thier subclass tree would be a very viable option as a tank even in a raid, although not better than a plate type but at least near equel, although still suffering from the luck problem while making up for it to some extent with single target agro and the ability to hold some agro without power.Note that my idea works in the system we have now, it may not work as well if the avoidence and mitigation system is changed for everyone. Even if it is, however, I see no way to improve our avoidence without turning higher avoidence plate tanks into godmode if avoidence scaling is changed for everyone.There is also the question of how this might change mobs. Imaging, if you will, the future, with our mr plate tank going up against an epic monk type mob, and discovering that he cannot hit it very often and thus has some problems holding agro. The solution, get the raid monk to tank, with a modification so that if a player monk is fighting a mob monk, the player will have some increased chance to hit it due to being a monk and understanding the monkley moves. The mob might also have some greater ability to hit, so the monk and monk mob can go at it hammer and tongs and at least the monk will be able to hold agro a lot better. It could be noted that mental based taunts might be somewhat ineffective against a monk mob, and thus the monk hit taunt might be the most effective taunt anyone has. This gives monks some mobs they are good against, which makesa them valuable in a raid, at least some of the time. I personally like the idea of every class being especially valuable in some situations, makes em feel important, needed, heroic. There might also be some mobs who have a greater than normal chance to hit monk players, so as to also give warrior types their time to shine.Personally I think the only heroic content which might need an avoidence buff is maybe some heroic named. I know that with basically a 5 person group (the sk plate tank got one shotted) I was able to tank "frankie", the hardest Halls mob (with 50 AA and lots of fabled), so it can be done now and such heroic content buffs as are needed will probably be small or only for orange con types (and perhaps for what I like to think of as "epic x1" in say Nizara).Plus I think that guardians and to a lesser extent berzerkers should still be just slightly better as raid tanks much of the time because those people rolled to be a tank and so they should be able to still do what they made their caracter to be. Monks should just be viable if soemwhat inferior tanks who are superior in certain situations and good enough in others that if the plate type is unavailable or goes down the monk will be a viable option, even if not the best option. The luck factor of avoidence tanking is probably enough to assure this.

[PrimusPilus]

Oh, and for the haste problem, with groups in a raid getting to high haste, a solution, which may be on the way, is to remove the haste cap for monks (although not nessisarily for others), or raise it. Then put that monk in a hasted group and watch their dps soar. Probably the best way to do this is to put one or more haste cap raisers in the "dps" line of a monk subclass acheivment tree. Such a tree would also include the deagro power(s) you would need if you had that. Bruisers could have the same thing but for raising the dps add cap.

[Cyngii]

Something I wish they would do (possibly even though AP) which would in turn help our viability IMO, would be to give the "buffing" classes limited raid wide buffs (which obviously would be limited by concentration points). Something similar to EQ1 "MGB" but single target and limited to within the raid.So much emphasis goes into the MT group (and rightfully so), that it's usually an all or nothing thing. If the MT ever falls, yeah a raid can recover from it, but it's usually prety rare since so many crucial classes typically get owned while another fighter jumps on it. Even then, fighters outside of the MT group are usually nothing more than speed bumps anyways. Without having Tsunami we typically die just about as fast as any other class. If there were limited raid wide buffs I think it would give more classes (us included) more viablity on raids.

[KazzySoJaz]

Until recently I never believed how other classes could out tank us, I mean I knew plate could...  But, the other night I was tanking Gorenaire and a healer didn't know I was tanking so I missed some heals, after I died a brigand got gore, and proceeded to not only out tank me but take way less damage while having just abotu the same avoidance...  I threw my copperhead against the wall disgusted (almost broke the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing) and I have not logged onto kazzanova since, effectively retiring him.  I am hoping to see what EoF has in store for us as tanks, and if we will ever be viable in groups (doubt it).  Until then though I am playing my troub and loving the fact that I am useful to someone, it is a good feeling.<BR>

[Shankonia]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR>Until recently I never believed how other classes could out tank us, I mean I knew plate could...  But, the other night I was tanking Gorenaire and a healer didn't know I was tanking so I missed some heals, after I died a brigand got gore, and proceeded to not only out tank me but take way less damage while having just abotu the same avoidance...  I threw my copperhead against the wall disgusted (almost broke the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing) and I have not logged onto kazzanova since, effectively retiring him.  I am hoping to see what EoF has in store for us as tanks, and if we will ever be viable in groups (doubt it).  Until then though I am playing my troub and loving the fact that I am useful to someone, it is a good feeling.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Avoidance works that way sometimes.  If Monks are so useless, and Brigands so much better tanks, maybe you should have that Brig tank Nizara sometime.  Let me know how it goes.</DIV>

[fre'do]

My question to yall is.  Are yall having fun playin a monk?  That is the only thing that should matter to you nothing else.  If you are not then find something better to you liking.  If you like playin a monk the flaws are of the class is a hurdle and nothing else.

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>fre'do wrote:My question to yall is.  Are yall having fun playin a monk?  That is the only thing that should matter to you nothing else.  If you are not then find something better to you liking.  If you like playin a monk the flaws are of the class is a hurdle and nothing else.<hr></blockquote>1. I like my monk's potential.2. I dislike how we are wasted and abandoned from what we "ARE" supposed to be. Monk is a class at this moment that is not what it is intended or promoted.May be that answers your question.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 AM</span>

[Supp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> fre'do wrote:<BR> My question to yall is.  Are yall having fun playin a monk?  That is the only thing that should matter to you nothing else.  If you are not then find something better to you liking.  If you like playin a monk the flaws are of the class is a hurdle and nothing else.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Things are not so simplistic. As you can see, I'm not afraid of rolling alts, but the fact is I do like my monk. What we're talking about is a broken fallacy that needs addressing. And it is being addressed. Hence, I'm staying. Now with my ex-warden, there's some serious Dev hate there. Been going on since the inception of T6. Based on my observations, it's not getting fixed, so she's a fury now. In general, I do take your advice to get a different subclass, but I like my monk, and I dont think there's a lot of Dev hate towards monks.</P> <P>All this discussion is to educate the monk community of the brokenness so we can approach the Devs as one. We all know that the Devs know about the brokenness.</P>

[fre'do]

<P>Everything is simple....just people make them things not simple. </P> <P> </P>

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>That's deep.</FONT></DIV>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>fre'do wrote:<div></div>My question to yall is.  Are yall having fun playin a monk?  That is the only thing that should matter to you nothing else.  If you are not then find something better to you liking.  If you like playin a monk the flaws are of the class is a hurdle and nothing else.<hr></blockquote>Well, after seeing my conjurer do 1,5 to 3x my monks DPS with 3 less levels and worse gear, I started to like to play my conjurer more. After all, my monks role has been just DPS and conjurer can do that far better. So what is the point of playing a monk when you have no role to fill. Playing the monk stopped to be fun when I realized that other classes will outperform anything the monk does. Need DPS? Pick a scout or mage. Need tank? Pick a plate class. Need utility? Pick anything but a monk. So no, having fun is not all that matters. What matters is to have fun in the future too. Monk is fun to level to 70. After that, well, not so anymore.<div></div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Shankonia wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> KazzySoJazzy wrote:Until recently I never believed how other classes could out tank us, I mean I knew plate could...  But, the other night I was tanking Gorenaire and a healer didn't know I was tanking so I missed some heals, after I died a brigand got gore, and proceeded to not only out tank me but take way less damage while having just abotu the same avoidance...  I threw my copperhead against the wall disgusted (almost broke the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing) and I have not logged onto kazzanova since, effectively retiring him.  I am hoping to see what EoF has in store for us as tanks, and if we will ever be viable in groups (doubt it).  Until then though I am playing my troub and loving the fact that I am useful to someone, it is a good feeling. <hr> </blockquote>Avoidance works that way sometimes.  If Monks are so useless, and Brigands so much better tanks, maybe you should have that Brig tank Nizara sometime.  Let me know how it goes.</div><hr></blockquote>No group would allow a brig to go into defensive because they could out dps us, so we would be thrown into the role over them because dps matters in a situation like that.  But I am sure if you had two brigs over a monk, the brig in defensive would probably have about the same if not more avoidance and def. more mitigation effectively allowing them to out tank us.</div>

[RipFlex]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> fre'do wrote:<BR> My question to yall is.  Are yall having fun playin a monk?  That is the only thing that should matter to you nothing else.  If you are not then find something better to you liking.  If you like playin a monk the flaws are of the class is a hurdle and nothing else.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, after seeing my conjurer do 1,5 to 3x my monks DPS with 3 less levels and worse gear, I started to like to play my conjurer more. After all, my monks role has been just DPS and conjurer can do that far better. So what is the point of playing a monk when you have no role to fill.<BR><BR>Playing the monk stopped to be fun when I realized that other classes will outperform anything the monk does. Need DPS? Pick a scout or mage. Need tank? Pick a plate class. Need utility? Pick anything but a monk.<BR><BR>So no, having fun is not all that matters. What matters is to have fun in the future too. Monk is fun to level to 70. After that, well, not so anymore.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Pretty much where I am now 70th/50th with no insentive to finish my woodworker... after soloing, small groupings and having lower level classes go ooo ahhh, OFF they go RAIDING and continue their content... me maybe if out of desperation get into a raid with my Monk for melee DPS roll - not my primary roll...  If I was at least a reasonable MA or emergency off-tank when MT drops... but sadly that's a joke.</P> <P>So jumped on my Templar 70/50th almost 70th Provisioner and get invited in any and all content of the game for my PRIMARY ROLE.  - "healing".   </P> <P>My Monk Harvests in dangerous zones soloing the Node Campers (Monsters).</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by RipFlex on <span class=date_text>09-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:00 AM</span>

[mr23sgte]

<P>Wow this is sorta my feeling atm :smileysad:   </P> <P> </P> <P>Hereo</P> <P>70 Monk  - Unrest</P>

[Cyngii]

I don't know about others, but reading the news today about the mechanics changes has suddenly put me in a good mood.