Yet another...

[HaginNetherbla]

..."monks are broken" thread.Now I've reserved judgement on this issue up until now.  But I am now 70/50, up to 14 or so in Claymore, have raided in T7, have 1/3 to 1/2 of my CAs as masters (and some of the rest as ad3s) and, in short, I feel informed enough to air this issue.  I am an informed commentator.  I will also add that I parse.  A lot.  I run most of my groups (and raids) with ACT running.  I've compared DW to 2H and have generally minimaxed my stats, armour, weapons and CAs.I do not have legendary/fabled T7 armour.  The weapons I am using are Strifewing fists (49 rating) x2 DW or a 92 rating 2H with a proc I got from some quest.  Yes I realize these will make a difference.  Luckily the comparisons I'm making are in a similar situation (since the people involved are generally in the same guild).There are many classes I could make a comparison to.  The one I'll start with is the paladin.  I don't think many will argue this is an overpowered class.  It is what I consider to be one of the three "real" tanks (along with zerkers and guardians; SKs don't--or didn't--have the taunt).First a bit of preamble: in t6 I realized that we are no longer tanks.  Compared to a plate tank we can't tank the same level of targets and, for whatever we do tank, we need more support--typically a mystic/defiler.  I wasn't too happy about this (because I'd started to tank for some friends and picked monk as a fighter never having played eq2) but I could live with it.  Why?  Because monks were high damage.  At 60 I was doing probably 400+ dps in a typical exp group.  Compare that to a zerker guildie who, at the time, had to be fighting 3 mobs to equal my damage and 4 to beat (just).  On 1-2 I beat him handily.At 70, typically I'm doing 500-550dps (more with a dirge and/or zerker and anyone else who can buff dps).  I self-haste to 96% (FBSS, group haste, offensive stance, everburning fire).  I'm still using the master1 of the level 32 everburning line (30%).  AD3/Master1 of th elevel 60 version would be more but honestly, theres not much point.  AD3/Master1 of the group haste would achieve the same thing and that I'm more likely to do.Problem #1: we are too haste dependant.  On this bruisers have us beat.  Capping dps is MUCH harder than capping haste and doesn't happen in everyday grouping.  It only really happens (if at all) in raids.  Add any of a number of classes (eg coercer, illusionist, dirge) to your group and you've hit the haste cap.  We need to swap some dps/haste with bruisers.  We'll both be better off and we both need it.Problem #2: we haven't really gotten any better since 60.  At least theres brawler itemization in KoS (eg manacles of dark sky) but this doens't make up for the rest.  To come back to paladins, I am typically outdamaging paladins now by a mere 5-10% IF THAT.  Now that wouldn't necessarily be a problem if it wasn't for...Problem #3: we cap at about 30% mitigation (sub-fabled; 35-37% fabled) and 70-75% avoidance (defensive stance with th eright AP lines).  Plate tanks cap out at about 65% mitigation and 65% avoidance (with a shield).  That's a problem.  Thats a massive shortfall in mitigation and a minor advantage in avoidance.Problem #4: avoidance is worse than mitigation.  If yo uhad to give me a choice of 30% mitigation/60% avoidance or 60% mitigation/30% avoidance I'd take the latter option every time without a moment's hesitation.  Theres a number of reasons for this:1. Mitigation scales better with higher level mobs than avoidance;2. Some mobs simply ignore avoidance completely (typically epics); and3. Avoidance is inherently less reliable than mitigation.  Mitigation basically always works.  Avoidance is subject ot luck and bad luck will get you killed.  Over sufficient time bad luck becomes a certainty.  The only way to manage this bad luck is to lower the risk (by fighting weaker mobs).Problem #5: we have no class-defining skills or abilities.  Group FD is admittedly nice in a group situation.  No complaints with that one but we don't have any meaningful buffs (group or targeted).  Haste?   Yawn.  Well, that's about it.  Hell, even zerkers have more buffs than we do.  They hit the 5 concentration cap in the 20s.  Buffs include dps and in-combat regen: both useful at every level.Problem #6: there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about our woeful mitigation.  No APs.  No abilities.  Nothing.  Hell, even brigands get a mitigation buff (and a single target taunt as it turns out).  Plate tanks can do something about their avoidance.Problem #7: while we were decent (although not uber) dps in t6 we don't even rate a mention in t7.  I can watch assassins doing 1300-1600dps while I eke out 600 on a good fight.  Now that's what assassins are for but take a class like brigand or swashbuckler.  Not only do they beat us on damage but they have some hoopy abilities to go along with it (to the point that high end raiding simply isn't viable--or maybe even *possible*--without 1 or evne 2 brigands).  What's more I'm hitting a cap on how many CAs I can pump out without getting aggro (from a geared up guardian).  I have to hold back further hurting my dps or I'll die every fight.  The real dps classes have deaggro abilities.Problem #8: our AE taunting ability is simply woeful to the point that on any group encounter, without constant switching (and even with to a lesser degree), the healer and others will get aggro.  Master1 AE taunt every 20 seconds doesn't cut it.  3s cast damage AE doesn't help (and this casting time needs to be reduced to 0.5 seconds, I mean honestly, it's almost completely worthless).  What else is there?What exactly do you need a monk for on a raid?  Is it the avoidance buff?  Nope.  Pallies have that too.  Is it the dps?  Nope/  Other buffs?  Nope.  Oh thats right, it's for tanking Gorenaire cos, hey, we've got safe fall.  Gratz us.As I understand it, long ago in the mists of early EQ2, avoidance was king and anyone with sufficient AGI/avoidance could then tank 3 up heroic nameds 10 levels higher.  That got nerfed... hard.  LU13 semi-fixed this (one guildie told me he stopped playing his zerker at LU13 cos his avoidance dropped form 100% to 60%) but not far enough.Our taunt stance is great.  If only there was a reason to taunt anything.Now I know SOE.  Like always they balance things out by going too far (and taking too long to come to a consensus).  In fact, once consensus is reached, the reaction is almost kneejerk and completely half-arsed (melee mitigation in eq1 SoL anyone?  Vex Thal anybody?).  It's kinda weird that they spend 2 years deciding something only then to get it completely wrong by spending two and a half minutes cobbling together a crappy solution.  The pendulum will (eventually) swing back the other way.  In the meantime, I'm going to see if I can be bothered levelling a useful character to 70.  If not, goodbye EQ.  And I'm not one of those Vanguard fanboys either (frankly I think the game is looking pretty awful so far).The one thing left to do on my monk it seems is to take my free respec to get rid of all these useless deflection/parry APs.  Not sure what to swap them for yet.  Maybe the AE proc on the wis line but 8% seems pretty crappy for 8 APs.  Suggestions welcome (for most dps).<div></div>

[Kasai]

<div><blockquote><hr>HaginNetherblade wrote:..."monks are broken" thread.Now I've reserved judgement on this issue up until now.  But I am now 70/50, up to 14 or so in Claymore, have raided in T7, have 1/3 to 1/2 of my CAs as masters (and some of the rest as ad3s) and, in short, I feel informed enough to air this issue.  I am an informed commentator.  I will also add that I parse.  A lot.  I run most of my groups (and raids) with ACT running.  I've compared DW to 2H and have generally minimaxed my stats, armour, weapons and CAs.I do not have legendary/fabled T7 armour.  The weapons I am using are Strifewing fists (49 rating) x2 DW or a 92 rating 2H with a proc I got from some quest.  Yes I realize these will make a difference.  Luckily the comparisons I'm making are in a similar situation (since the people involved are generally in the same guild).There are many classes I could make a comparison to.  The one I'll start with is the paladin.  I don't think many will argue this is an overpowered class.  It is what I consider to be one of the three "real" tanks (along with zerkers and guardians; SKs don't--or didn't--have the taunt).First a bit of preamble: in t6 I realized that we are no longer tanks.  Compared to a plate tank we can't tank the same level of targets and, for whatever we do tank, we need more support--typically a mystic/defiler.  I wasn't too happy about this (because I'd started to tank for some friends and picked monk as a fighter never having played eq2) but I could live with it.  Why?  Because monks were high damage.  At 60 I was doing probably 400+ dps in a typical exp group.  Compare that to a zerker guildie who, at the time, had to be fighting 3 mobs to equal my damage and 4 to beat (just).  On 1-2 I beat him handily.At 70, typically I'm doing 500-550dps (more with a dirge and/or zerker and anyone else who can buff dps).  I self-haste to 96% (FBSS, group haste, offensive stance, everburning fire).  I'm still using the master1 of the level 32 everburning line (30%).  AD3/Master1 of th elevel 60 version would be more but honestly, theres not much point.  AD3/Master1 of the group haste would achieve the same thing and that I'm more likely to do.Problem #1: we are too haste dependant.  On this bruisers have us beat.  Capping dps is MUCH harder than capping haste and doesn't happen in everyday grouping.  It only really happens (if at all) in raids.  Add any of a number of classes (eg coercer, illusionist, dirge) to your group and you've hit the haste cap.  We need to swap some dps/haste with bruisers.  We'll both be better off and we both need it.<font color="#66ff00">This can be true.  There are many times where I cap at haste and at this point it is worthless.  I do think that we need to balance haste/dps buffs a little to make our buffs worth more.</font>Problem #2: we haven't really gotten any better since 60.  At least theres brawler itemization in KoS (eg manacles of dark sky) but this doens't make up for the rest.  To come back to paladins, I am typically outdamaging paladins now by a mere 5-10% IF THAT.  Now that wouldn't necessarily be a problem if it wasn't for...<font color="#66ff00">I'm not sure if its your weapons or what, but I am usually close if not on top of the parsing.  Raids I am usually in the top 3 or 4(again, it might be your weapon) and I can dish out my share of damage.</font>Problem #3: we cap at about 30% mitigation (sub-fabled; 35-37% fabled) and 70-75% avoidance (defensive stance with th eright AP lines).  Plate tanks cap out at about 65% mitigation and 65% avoidance (with a shield).  That's a problem.  Thats a massive shortfall in mitigation and a minor advantage in avoidance.<font color="#66ff00">Saying we cap mitigation at 30% is a joke.  I am in average gear, common drops of a few names and some legendary crafted.  I have 30% avoidance in offense stance.  When i go in defense stance i get up to about 35%.  By doing the quests in the claymore line, there are many peices of jewelry that add to mitigation and if you know what you are doing, you can get up to 3k miti.  This is much higher than 30%.  I do agree that we need AA's that buff our mitigation because it is kind of unfair.</font>Problem #4: avoidance is worse than mitigation.  If yo uhad to give me a choice of 30% mitigation/60% avoidance or 60% mitigation/30% avoidance I'd take the latter option every time without a moment's hesitation.  Theres a number of reasons for this:<font color="#66ff00">This is true,  mitigation is mor reliable than avoiance.  But with certain preists, (mystic, Defiler), and with the right armor, we can tank certain mobs better than plate tanks.  It is more situational but it's not impossible.</font>1. Mitigation scales better with higher level mobs than avoidance;2. Some mobs simply ignore avoidance completely (typically epics); and3. Avoidance is inherently less reliable than mitigation.  Mitigation basically always works.  Avoidance is subject ot luck and bad luck will get you killed.  Over sufficient time bad luck becomes a certainty.  The only way to manage this bad luck is to lower the risk (by fighting weaker mobs).Problem #5: we have no class-defining skills or abilities.  Group FD is admittedly nice in a group situation.  No complaints with that one but we don't have any meaningful buffs (group or targeted).  Haste?   Yawn.  Well, that's about it.  Hell, even zerkers have more buffs than we do.  They hit the 5 concentration cap in the 20s.  Buffs include dps and in-combat regen: both useful at every level.<font color="#66ff00">There are a few class definining abilities that we have.  First and foremost, FD.  this abilitiy is almost unreplaceable in raids and it helps a lot in regular groups as well.  WE have the best avoidance buff to put on other people as well as group haste.  They are not huge thigns like berzerk but they are something.</font>Problem #6: there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about our woeful mitigation.  No APs.  No abilities.  Nothing.  Hell, even brigands get a mitigation buff (and a single target taunt as it turns out).  Plate tanks can do something about their avoidance.<font color="#66ff00">True, other than getting the best armor we can't do anything about miti.</font>Problem #7: while we were decent (although not uber) dps in t6 we don't even rate a mention in t7.  I can watch assassins doing 1300-1600dps while I eke out 600 on a good fight.  Now that's what assassins are for but take a class like brigand or swashbuckler.  Not only do they beat us on damage but they have some hoopy abilities to go along with it (to the point that high end raiding simply isn't viable--or maybe even *possible*--without 1 or evne 2 brigands).  What's more I'm hitting a cap on how many CAs I can pump out without getting aggro (from a geared up guardian).  I have to hold back further hurting my dps or I'll die every fight.  The real dps classes have deaggro abilities.<font color="#66ff00">This is where I disagree.  With the right weapon, we can get above 1000dps on raids reguarlarly.  Try staff of the flapping wing, a farily common drop on trash mobs in ascent of the awakened x2.  With the right setup of AAs, its very easy to get above 1k dps.  If you are not in a raiding guild, the STR AA line is another viable choice.  It is about equal to having 2 57dr duel weilds or a 110ish 2HB.  The weapons you have are average and a lot of our dps is from auto attack.</font>Problem #8: our AE taunting ability is simply woeful to the point that on any group encounter, without constant switching (and even with to a lesser degree), the healer and others will get aggro.  Master1 AE taunt every 20 seconds doesn't cut it.  3s cast damage AE doesn't help (and this casting time needs to be reduced to 0.5 seconds, I mean honestly, it's almost completely worthless).  What else is there?<font color="#66ff00">we may have bad AE taunting but we have probably the best single target taunting.  I never loose aggro to a single mob and if your group is assisting you properly, you can just switch every few hits and build hate with hte adds.</font>What exactly do you need a monk for on a raid?  Is it the avoidance buff?  Nope.  Pallies have that too.  Is it the dps?  Nope/  Other buffs?  Nope.  Oh thats right, it's for tanking Gorenaire cos, hey, we've got safe fall.  Gratz us.<font color="#66ff00">Monks are useful in raids because:1) FD ( It prevents wipes and in some cases, prevents raids from reclearing zones.)2) pulling.  Some mobs almost require a monk to pull the name to the MT.  When mobs arent in the right place to tank them, usually the monk will be the puller and get them to the right spot.3) DPS.  It is easy to get high in the parses if you get good weapons.  Hell, i can hit about 450+ dps from just autoattack SOLO.  With raid buffs you can usually hit about 600+ DPS auto attack only.  Keep your skills upgraded and you can actually compete with those assassins. One thing of advice i have to give you is to make yourself known.  Usually the monk won't get a good group because they don't prove themselves...With the right group ( zerker, coercer and maybe a bruiser) you can hit 100% haste and about 80-100% DPS.  This will allow you to hit about 800+ DPS auto attack.  This may be rare but you can be a big help to the raid if you make yourself known.</font>As I understand it, long ago in the mists of early EQ2, avoidance was king and anyone with sufficient AGI/avoidance could then tank 3 up heroic nameds 10 levels higher.  That got nerfed... hard.  LU13 semi-fixed this (one guildie told me he stopped playing his zerker at LU13 cos his avoidance dropped form 100% to 60%) but not far enough.Our taunt stance is great.  If only there was a reason to taunt anything.Now I know SOE.  Like always they balance things out by going too far (and taking too long to come to a consensus).  In fact, once consensus is reached, the reaction is almost kneejerk and completely half-arsed (melee mitigation in eq1 SoL anyone?  Vex Thal anybody?).  It's kinda weird that they spend 2 years deciding something only then to get it completely wrong by spending two and a half minutes cobbling together a crappy solution.  The pendulum will (eventually) swing back the other way.  In the meantime, I'm going to see if I can be bothered levelling a useful character to 70.  If not, goodbye EQ.  And I'm not one of those Vanguard fanboys either (frankly I think the game is looking pretty awful so far).The one thing left to do on my monk it seems is to take my free respec to get rid of all these useless deflection/parry APs.  Not sure what to swap them for yet.  Maybe the AE proc on the wis line but 8% seems pretty crappy for 8 APs.  Suggestions welcome (for most dps).<font color="#66ff00">Ok, first let me tell you that I'm on a PvP server.  I have some avoidance buffs that help with that...For raw dps, the best way to do it would probably be:4-4-8 STR4-4-8 STA4-4-8 INTthis is good atleast until you get some good weapons. 56+ish dr at that point you can go for4-4-8 STA4-4-8 WIs4-4-8 INTthe wisdom line will add some dps, not always much and you will need to turn it off at times to prevnt pulling adds but it will help.I hope this helps, Monks are in no way useless, it just takes some fine tuning to get them the way you like.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[laatikko]

<blockquote><hr>Kasai259 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>HaginNetherblade wrote:..."monks are broken" thread.Now I've reserved judgement on this issue up until now.  But I am now 70/50, up to 14 or so in Claymore, have raided in T7, have 1/3 to 1/2 of my CAs as masters (and some of the rest as ad3s) and, in short, I feel informed enough to air this issue.  I am an informed commentator.  I will also add that I parse.  A lot.  I run most of my groups (and raids) with ACT running.  I've compared DW to 2H and have generally minimaxed my stats, armour, weapons and CAs.I do not have legendary/fabled T7 armour.  The weapons I am using are Strifewing fists (49 rating) x2 DW or a 92 rating 2H with a proc I got from some quest.  Yes I realize these will make a difference.  Luckily the comparisons I'm making are in a similar situation (since the people involved are generally in the same guild).There are many classes I could make a comparison to.  The one I'll start with is the paladin.  I don't think many will argue this is an overpowered class.  It is what I consider to be one of the three "real" tanks (along with zerkers and guardians; SKs don't--or didn't--have the taunt).First a bit of preamble: in t6 I realized that we are no longer tanks.  Compared to a plate tank we can't tank the same level of targets and, for whatever we do tank, we need more support--typically a mystic/defiler.  I wasn't too happy about this (because I'd started to tank for some friends and picked monk as a fighter never having played eq2) but I could live with it.  Why?  Because monks were high damage.  At 60 I was doing probably 400+ dps in a typical exp group.  Compare that to a zerker guildie who, at the time, had to be fighting 3 mobs to equal my damage and 4 to beat (just).  On 1-2 I beat him handily.At 70, typically I'm doing 500-550dps (more with a dirge and/or zerker and anyone else who can buff dps).  I self-haste to 96% (FBSS, group haste, offensive stance, everburning fire).  I'm still using the master1 of the level 32 everburning line (30%).  AD3/Master1 of th elevel 60 version would be more but honestly, theres not much point.  AD3/Master1 of the group haste would achieve the same thing and that I'm more likely to do.Problem #1: we are too haste dependant.  On this bruisers have us beat.  Capping dps is MUCH harder than capping haste and doesn't happen in everyday grouping.  It only really happens (if at all) in raids.  Add any of a number of classes (eg coercer, illusionist, dirge) to your group and you've hit the haste cap.  We need to swap some dps/haste with bruisers.  We'll both be better off and we both need it.<font color="#66ff00">This can be true.  There are many times where I cap at haste and at this point it is worthless.  I do think that we need to balance haste/dps buffs a little to make our buffs worth more.</font>Problem #2: we haven't really gotten any better since 60.  At least theres brawler itemization in KoS (eg manacles of dark sky) but this doens't make up for the rest.  To come back to paladins, I am typically outdamaging paladins now by a mere 5-10% IF THAT.  Now that wouldn't necessarily be a problem if it wasn't for...<font color="#66ff00">I'm not sure if its your weapons or what, but I am usually close if not on top of the parsing.  Raids I am usually in the top 3 or 4(again, it might be your weapon) and I can dish out my share of damage.</font><font color="#cc0000">Give me coerceror, ember seed, phoenixblade, posion proc, dirge, etc. I'll be running nice dps too. might even be high top on parse. The sad thins is all other melee dps classes can still pull out more dps with the same setup. </font><font color="#cc0000">Scouts in general parse higher than monks so why waste b</font><font color="#cc0000">uffs on monk if u got better available. Parsing raid dps is all nice but doesnt give u a real image of ur dps. Monks only get to play dps if ur short on other classes. Besides monk parsing top dps with no deaggro is always risky for ur own (and raids) health. Even a troubadour can pull over 1k dps on right situation. still wouldnt say their a dps class.</font> Problem #3: we cap at about 30% mitigation (sub-fabled; 35-37% fabled) and 70-75% avoidance (defensive stance with th eright AP lines).  Plate tanks cap out at about 65% mitigation and 65% avoidance (with a shield).  That's a problem.  Thats a massive shortfall in mitigation and a minor advantage in avoidance.<font color="#66ff00">Saying we cap mitigation at 30% is a joke.  I am in average gear, common drops of a few names and some legendary crafted.  I have 30% avoidance in offense stance.  When i go in defense stance i get up to about 35%.  By doing the quests in the claymore line, there are many peices of jewelry that add to mitigation and if you know what you are doing, you can get up to 3k miti.  This is much higher than 30%.  I do agree that we need AA's that buff our mitigation because it is kind of unfair. <font color="#cc0000">Agree. Having some AA's to beef mitigation would be nice. I can selfbuff aroun 50%miti (3.5k) and 70-75% avoidance depending on gear. This doesnt justify zergers/guardians sitting well over 80% miti and 60% avoidance alone. The zerger can easily outdps a monk (and a lot of other too) if hes MTing </font></font>Problem #4: avoidance is worse than mitigation.  If yo uhad to give me a choice of 30% mitigation/60% avoidance or 60% mitigation/30% avoidance I'd take the latter option every time without a moment's hesitation.  Theres a number of reasons for this:<font color="#66ff00">This is true,  mitigation is mor reliable than avoiance.  But with certain preists, (mystic, Defiler), and with the right armor, we can tank certain mobs better than plate tanks.  It is more situational but it's not impossible. <font color="#cc0000">What mobs? orange mobs hit too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard. we may run in troubles with yellows. blue and green r too easy. Only thing comes in mind is gorenire and that fall isnt high enough to kill a plate tank so it doesnt rly even require a brawler fot that...</font> </font>1. Mitigation scales better with higher level mobs than avoidance;<font color="#cc0000">So true</font>2. Some mobs simply ignore avoidance completely (typically epics); and<font color="#cc0000">Mosty a problem with mobs using CA's </font>3. Avoidance is inherently less reliable than mitigation.  Mitigation basically always works.  Avoidance is subject ot luck and bad luck will get you killed.  Over sufficient time bad luck becomes a certainty.  The only way to manage this bad luck is to lower the risk (by fighting weaker mobs).Problem #5: we have no class-defining skills or abilities.  Group FD is admittedly nice in a group situation.  No complaints with that one but we don't have any meaningful buffs (group or targeted).  Haste?   Yawn.  Well, that's about it.  Hell, even zerkers have more buffs than we do.  They hit the 5 concentration cap in the 20s.  Buffs include dps and in-combat regen: both useful at every level.<font color="#66ff00">There are a few class definining abilities that we have.  First and foremost, FD.  this abilitiy is almost unreplaceable in raids and it helps a lot in regular groups as well.  WE have the best avoidance buff to put on other people as well as group haste.  They are not huge thigns like berzerk but they are something. <font color="#cc0000">FD is next to useless in modern day raiding now that u can revive in zones. only exeption i can think of is the crab instance.</font> <font color="#cc0000">And what comes to our avoidance buff... Avoidance is risky enough as it is. I haven't met a plate tank yet who would trade hes parry/defence buff to an avoidance lottery.</font></font>Problem #6: there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about our woeful mitigation.  No APs.  No abilities.  Nothing.  Hell, even brigands get a mitigation buff (and a single target taunt as it turns out).  Plate tanks can do something about their avoidance.<font color="#66ff00">True, other than getting the best armor we can't do anything about miti.</font>Problem #7: while we were decent (although not uber) dps in t6 we don't even rate a mention in t7.  I can watch assassins doing 1300-1600dps while I eke out 600 on a good fight.  Now that's what assassins are for but take a class like brigand or swashbuckler.  Not only do they beat us on damage but they have some hoopy abilities to go along with it (to the point that high end raiding simply isn't viable--or maybe even *possible*--without 1 or evne 2 brigands).  What's more I'm hitting a cap on how many CAs I can pump out without getting aggro (from a geared up guardian).  I have to hold back further hurting my dps or I'll die every fight.  The real dps classes have deaggro abilities.<font color="#66ff00">This is where I disagree.  With the right weapon, we can get above 1000dps on raids reguarlarly.  Try staff of the flapping wing, a farily common drop on trash mobs in ascent of the awakened x2.  With the right setup of AAs, its very easy to get above 1k dps.  If you are not in a raiding guild, the STR AA line is another viable choice.  It is about equal to having 2 57dr duel weilds or a 110ish 2HB.  The weapons you have are average and a lot of our dps is from auto attack. <font color="#cc0000">As said above monk pretty much needs to be unarmed with 448 in str to be somekind of dps I got over 60 rated dw myself and with all AA fooling around I still do better dps with the str line</font> </font>Problem #8: our AE taunting ability is simply woeful to the point that on any group encounter, without constant switching (and even with to a lesser degree), the healer and others will get aggro.  Master1 AE taunt every 20 seconds doesn't cut it.  3s cast damage AE doesn't help (and this casting time needs to be reduced to 0.5 seconds, I mean honestly, it's almost completely worthless).  What else is there?<font color="#66ff00">we may have bad AE taunting but we have probably the best single target taunting.  I never loose aggro to a single mob and if your group is assisting you properly, you can just switch every few hits and build hate with hte adds. <font color="#cc0000">I'm going all out offensive stance, got storm advance M1 on and I spam my taunts (both M1). I can't peel from a coer hate buffed zerger. So I'd say were good at holding single target aggro. even single encounter. but not best. </font></font>What exactly do you need a monk for on a raid?  Is it the avoidance buff?  Nope.  Pallies have that too.  Is it the dps?  Nope/  Other buffs?  Nope.  Oh thats right, it's for tanking Gorenaire cos, hey, we've got safe fall.  Gratz us.<font color="#66ff00">Monks are useful in raids because:1) FD ( It prevents wipes and in some cases, prevents raids from reclearing zones.) <font color="#cc0000">Well yeah. like DT has some repopping eyes too.. always hate to clear those</font>2) pulling.  Some mobs almost require a monk to pull the name to the MT.  When mobs arent in the right place to tank them, usually the monk will be the puller and get them to the right spot. <font color="#cc0000">These mobs r becoming a rarety. Very few mobs actually require tsunami pulling if any.</font>3) DPS.  It is easy to get high in the parses if you get good weapons.  Hell, i can hit about 450+ dps from just autoattack SOLO.  With raid buffs you can usually hit about 600+ DPS auto attack only.  Keep your skills upgraded and you can actually compete with those assassins. <font color="#cc0000">No you can't. </font>One thing of advice i have to give you is to make yourself known.  Usually the monk won't get a good group because they don't prove themselves...With the right group ( zerker, coercer and maybe a bruiser) you can hit 100% haste and about 80-100% DPS.  This will allow you to hit about 800+ DPS auto attack.  This may be rare but you can be a big help to the raid if you make yourself known.</font>As I understand it, long ago in the mists of early EQ2, avoidance was king and anyone with sufficient AGI/avoidance could then tank 3 up heroic nameds 10 levels higher.  That got nerfed... hard.  LU13 semi-fixed this (one guildie told me he stopped playing his zerker at LU13 cos his avoidance dropped form 100% to 60%) but not far enough.Our taunt stance is great.  If only there was a reason to taunt anything.Now I know SOE.  Like always they balance things out by going too far (and taking too long to come to a consensus).  In fact, once consensus is reached, the reaction is almost kneejerk and completely half-arsed (melee mitigation in eq1 SoL anyone?  Vex Thal anybody?).  It's kinda weird that they spend 2 years deciding something only then to get it completely wrong by spending two and a half minutes cobbling together a crappy solution.  The pendulum will (eventually) swing back the other way.  In the meantime, I'm going to see if I can be bothered levelling a useful character to 70.  If not, goodbye EQ.  And I'm not one of those Vanguard fanboys either (frankly I think the game is looking pretty awful so far).The one thing left to do on my monk it seems is to take my free respec to get rid of all these useless deflection/parry APs.  Not sure what to swap them for yet.  Maybe the AE proc on the wis line but 8% seems pretty crappy for 8 APs.  Suggestions welcome (for most dps).<font color="#66ff00">Ok, first let me tell you that I'm on a PvP server.  I have some avoidance buffs that help with that...For raw dps, the best way to do it would probably be:4-4-8 STR4-4-8 STA4-4-8 INTthis is good atleast until you get some good weapons. 56+ish dr at that point you can go for4-4-8 STA4-4-8 WIs4-4-8 INT<font color="#cc0000">Can also try having 448 in STR/STA/WIS (if u dont have good weps) as the crit chance from int line doesnt do so much anymore</font> the wisdom line will add some dps, not always much and you will need to turn it off at times to prevnt pulling adds but it will help.I hope this helps, Monks are in no way useless, it just takes some fine tuning to get them the way you like.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote> <font color="#cc0000">Pauzze</font><div></div>

[dragon459]

<P>    I was going to reply to each of your points but the previous poster did a good job of doing that.  I have played my monk for quite a while now.  I rolled it after i became bored with my first character (a shadow knight).  I have been around to see most of the changes made to the brawler class , and to be honest , we are probably the best balanced class out there.  </P> <P>   Now i agree that the tanking tends to favor Mit more than avoidance.  Mit offers a much more consistent damage threshold instead of the large damage spikes we have to deal with.   You can really tell the difference on hard hitting mobs , such as epics.  But i find i tank just fine on heroics and even some of the easier epic mobs out there.  Ability plays a large part in tanking anything really.</P> <P>   As far as DPS goes , once you get most of your skills to master level and you obtain better weapons , you can hold your own.  I , like the previous poster, almost always parse high.  In a +DPS group setting i easily hit 1000 to 1100 almost every fight.  I have never had a complaint about my DPS.  </P> <P>   We have a few class defining skills.  FD of course , but also Tsunami is one of my most used.  Its is one of the best pulling abilities out there.  </P> <P>   All in all , i am happy with the monk class the way it stands now.  We aren't just a one trick pony , so to speak.  We can tank or do some nice dps depending on the role we need to fill.  Also we are one of the best solo classes out there.  Trust me , there are other classes out there that are far worse off than us.</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

Monk mitigation isn't capped at 30% at all (or 37%).  Before I betrayed to bruiser I think I was around 50% mit, 75% avoid self.

[HaginNetherbla]

<div></div><font color="#ff0000">Gaige: Monk mitigation isn't capped at 30% at all (or 37%). Before I betrayed to bruiser I think I was around 50% mit, 75% avoid self.</font>50%? Now I near my gear ain't great (as already noted). I typically have treasured level with some legendary for 30% mitigation at 70. To get to 50%, each piece of mine would need to increase by 66%. My BP is 306 mitigation. I'm just not seeing 500 mitigation *leather* BPs anywhere (raid drops or wahtever). Am I missing something here? That being said, what are the stats (dps, avoidance, mitigation) of a paladin, guardian or zerker in your guild who is similarly compared (as in same level of gear)? I'm curious.<p>Message Edited by HaginNetherblade on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:25 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>HaginNetherblade wrote:<div></div><font color="#ff0000">Gaige: Monk mitigation isn't capped at 30% at all (or 37%). Before I betrayed to bruiser I think I was around 50% mit, 75% avoid self.</font>50%? Now I near my gear ain't great (as already noted). I typically have treasured level with some legendary for 30% mitigation at 70. To get to 50%, each piece of mine would need to increase by 66%. My BP is 306 mitigation. I'm just not seeing 500 mitigation *leather* BPs anywhere (raid drops or wahtever). Am I missing something here? That being said, what are the stats (dps, avoidance, mitigation) of a paladin, guardian or zerker in your guild who is similarly compared (as in same level of gear)? I'm curious.<p>Message Edited by HaginNetherblade on <span class="date_text">07-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:25 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yes, there are jewelry with slashing, piercing and crushing resists in them. These will add to mitigation. When solo, my monk is at 42% mitigation, 71% avoidance at lvl 70 with one fabled and the rest legendary gear and master 1 defensive stance.<div></div>