Is the grass really greener? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Junaru

06-15-2006, 10:17 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Stryyfe wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> -UGG-Andy wrote: <div></div>well im asking now as the situation has changed,never before could a lvl70 monk or bruiser switch-even gaige has switched to bruiser,so thats why im asking,mmkay? <hr> </blockquote> Who the hell cares what Gaige switched to? Who the hell is Gaige, other than a guy who constantly is on the forums helping you people out, and obviously a good monk on his server and for his guild, and apparently knows the needs of his guild and is making a choice strictly based most likley on the guild being more successful in what they want to accomplish and even possibly to have more fun based on personal preference. Don't let someone elses decision influence yours just because they are successful in their class. Why don't you send him a private message and ask some of the reasons he did it and then make your own judgement for yourself, not based on others. <hr></blockquote>Hehe I agree.. I like Gaige and have been on his side in alot of fights for balance but one thing you need to know about Gaige is he's ALL about tanking. Just look at the AA's he picked. Brusiers just have better mitigation due to their self buff and I'm sure that is a big part of Gaige switching to a Brusier.Besides I'm sure his guild have just about every master sitting in the bank so when he switches he wont lose anything.. :smileytongue:</div>

-UGG-Andy

06-15-2006, 10:26 PM

ok,stop telling me to switch,i said allready i have no intention of doing that. This was a thread asking those who HAVE switched what there opinion is,and im asking them cos they are in a position to know what they are talking about. As for gaige,since release hes been a great help to the monk community with his information,and insight into the monk class,thats why i mentioned him,just cos he is a prolific monk and his comparison of the two classes im sure will be a very interesting one,now he has experiance of both. Stop reading into my intentions,and posting off topic crap telling me to betray and find out.Im interested in the opinions of those that have switched,and im sure some others are curious as to what those opinions will be,if you yourself are not interested,don't post in the thread!

Gaige

06-15-2006, 10:42 PM

My guild had two monks. We didn't have a bruiser. I prefer to tank as much as possible including raids. The choice was easy. Playing the bruiser class is basically a carbon copy of playing the monk one, except for the obvious things like Tsunami and the like. Its not that different and one doesn't feel more "uber" than the other. I wanted the c/s/p/r debuff for raiding (because T7 is all about debuffs) and I wanted the mit/hp buff. Tsunami is cool against epics for 12 seconds but 3 mins of 1306 mit is better. The dps is a moot point as is solo'ing. I can solo the same stuff now as I could on Tuesday. The classes really feel similiar aside from like I said the obvious things. I did it because it was the best choice for my playstyle and my guild - not because monks suck. Quite the contrary I loved the monk class, it just wasn't the best choice for me anymore.Message Edited by Gaige on 06-15-2006 11:43 AM

selch

06-15-2006, 10:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: I prefer to tank as much as possible including raids. The choice was easy. it just wasn't the best choice for me anymore. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> It just is not best choice for anyone who wants to tank as brawler, who wants to dps as brawler... Sad to see you go Gaige... So we can tell from day #1 monk: "Grass is much greener for tanking side" quite the contrary what is "said" and "supposed to be" "defensive side of brawlers" Message Edited by selch on 06-15-2006 12:00 PM

zabor

06-15-2006, 11:36 PM

It is always wiser to play the class the head dev is playing too.

Gungo

06-15-2006, 11:37 PM

Depends imho monks do have better agro control then bruisers, but yes bruisers imho tank better then monks. The loss of the mitigation potion is actually a pretty decent hit to us as well. Glad i stocked up on 20 mitigation potions should last me until T8-T9 where the extra mitigation it provides will be minimal. I would like to see gaige's insight on tanking heroic fights w multi mobs w a warlock etc with a bruiser vs a monk. It was not like it was impossible but it did keep us on our toes more i would say.

Gungo

06-15-2006, 11:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote: It is always wiser to play the class the head dev is playing too. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Moorgard is not the head developer. He was promoted from community manager to game designer somewhere in the developement of EQ2. In other words during developement meetings he puts his opinion into the games design, but he does not design the game. If any one game designer/developer is considered the head of developing the game it would be Lockeye. edit: and jsut for reference there is ~20 game designers in EQ2 each of which has thier own class. A wise man once said think before you speak... you should probably listne to that advice.Message Edited by Gungo on 06-15-2006 12:44 PM

WaachBack

06-15-2006, 11:56 PM

/gasp So you really did it. :smileysad:

-UGG-Andy

06-16-2006, 12:31 AM

see..thats the sort of answer i was looking for..and it is interesting..thanks for the info gaige. I wonder what direction the two subclasses will take in the futiure with class specific AA's.

DarkerApprenti

06-16-2006, 01:09 AM

Holy crap gaige. Well, I know you get a few things from bruiser that you didn't with monk but was nice the chats we used to have about being a monk. Now they'll have to be about being a BRAWLER.Good luck and happy hunting. Tell Illuminator hey for me. Cheers,Val.<div></div>

06-16-2006, 01:59 AM

<div></div><div></div>Bruisers are a better class in every aspect in a raid oriented setting. Monks are a broken class. I've been saying this since t6. I am not going to change to a bruiser though because I have hope that SOE will realize Monks are a broken class and will do something. Either make us better tanks, or give us bruiser dps. One or the other. As it is now we are a ghetto version of a bruiser with a dumb 12 second tsunami which can be used once per fight usually. Again, we are talking raiding here...we aren't talking about a good hybrid for groups/quests/xping. If this was the vision of the Monk class, SOE should have put a note on the class select screen saying "This class will be worthless for endgame content". Since this note did not exist at character creation time...I demand someone to fix the Monk class, or give a one time class change option....to any class desired.I know devs like to respond to opinions like mine with "There are all different play styles and raid styles, and Monks are designed for certain situations". No.....No. That is an excuse from someone who does not raid. As of right now, with the current endgame content, there is ZERO reason to have a Monk in a guild over a Bruiser. And there is ZERO reason to have a bruiser over either a real tank class, or a real dps class. This is a critical problem with this...and nothing is being done about it because a)the majority of the monk player community sees no problem with their class.....because they are not real engame raiders(see why?), and b)The devs who playtest Monks aren't either. Soooo, disagree all you want, there are some people out there who understand what I am talking about. Hopefully this number will grow until something is done to the Brawler archtype all together. We are a misfit archtype with the guise of "situational uses". I knew that going into the class but hoped there would be SOME reason for my existance in the endgame content. As it is now, you either have fix mitigation/avoidance for gods sake, make us tanks, or make us dps, or give us something actually good enough for someone to say, "hey, we need a brawler for this 24 man raid". Has anyone ever heard that?(not princes)<div></div>Message Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:00 PMMessage Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:01 PM

eyes007

06-16-2006, 02:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KR wrote: Bruisers are a better class in every aspect in a raid oriented setting. Monks are a broken class. I've been saying this since t6. I am not going to change to a bruiser though because I have hope that SOE will realize Monks are a broken class and will do something. Either make us better tanks, or give us bruiser dps. One or the other. As it is now we are a ghetto version of a bruiser with a dumb 12 second tsunami which can be used once per fight usually. Again, we are talking raiding here...we aren't talking about a good hybrid for groups/quests/xping. If this was the vision of the Monk class, SOE should have put a note on the class select screen saying "This class will be worthless for endgame content". Since this note did not exist at character creation time...I demand someone to fix the Monk class, or give a one time class change option....to any class desired. I know devs like to respond to opinions like mine with "There are all different play styles and raid styles, and Monks are designed for certain situations". No.....No. That is an excuse from someone who does not raid. As of right now, with the current endgame content, there is ZERO reason to have a Monk in a guild over a Bruiser. And there is ZERO reason to have a bruiser over either a real tank class, or a real dps class. This is a critical problem with this...and nothing is being done about it because a)the majority of the monk player community sees no problem with their class.....because they are not real engame raiders(see why?), and b)The devs who playtest Monks aren't either. Soooo, disagree all you want, there are some people out there who understand what I am talking about. Hopefully this number will grow until something is done to the Brawler archtype all together. We are a misfit archtype with the guise of "situational uses". I knew that going into the class but hoped there would be SOME reason for my existance in the endgame content. As it is now, you either have fix mitigation/avoidance for gods sake, make us tanks, or make us dps, or give us something actually good enough for someone to say, "hey, we need a brawler for this 24 man raid". Has anyone ever heard that?(not princes) Message Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:00 PM Message Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:01 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Meh...crying over spilt milk is a waste of time. You can say what you want about your daft monk but I'm sick to death of those who cry about broken crap and making wide generalizations about what I or any others CAN or CAN'T do in EQ2. Go ahead and betray to a bruiser if you yourself can't get into end-game raiding, just quit trying to lump others into the same whiney chair you sit in. Me, I'm always gonna remain hopeful that we will get some nice spells eventually, but if not, I don't give a flying [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Monks have great lore, nice looking gear (considering that godawful Pally hat) and are awesome in bed (larger chi/mojo than anyone else hehe).

scalzo

06-16-2006, 04:59 AM

<DIV>Who are you KR? From ur post history on Butcherblock let me take a guess? A retired Guardian? I might be wrong but hey history says it all.</DIV>Message Edited by scalzo on 06-16-2006 09:00 AM

Gungo

06-16-2006, 08:15 AM

I do wonder what ever happened to that mass exodus of guardians who made brawlers after LU13. I remeber the ranting and raving how OMG brawlers are the best tank ever. Then how so many gaurds said they are making a brawler so they can see what it is liek to be the best tank class. Sadly all i see is many of those same ex gaurds whining how broken thier brawler is. There are a few exceptions to this rule Colosaltitan is one that comes to mind. Back on topic brawlers DPS in raids is almost identical depending on the groups and buffs. Sometimes a bruiser will outdps you and sometimes a monk will depending on spells and gear and the encounter. I regularly get outdps by the monk in my guild but then again i am building myself to tank.

DarkMirrax

06-16-2006, 12:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: My guild had two monks. We didn't have a bruiser. I prefer to tank as much as possible including raids. The choice was easy. Playing the bruiser class is basically a carbon copy of playing the monk one, except for the obvious things like Tsunami and the like. Its not that different and one doesn't feel more "uber" than the other. I wanted the c/s/p/r debuff for raiding (because T7 is all about debuffs) and I wanted the mit/hp buff. Tsunami is cool against epics for 12 seconds but 3 mins of 1306 mit is better. The dps is a moot point as is solo'ing. I can solo the same stuff now as I could on Tuesday. The classes really feel similiar aside from like I said the obvious things. I did it because it was the best choice for my playstyle and my guild - not because monks suck. Quite the contrary I loved the monk class, it just wasn't the best choice for me anymore. Message Edited by Gaige on 06-15-2006 11:43 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Fair play G that was quite possibly the best post you ever wrote mate , enlarged the main point here so that the monks here dont take it the wrong way about why you changed

Taicheese

06-16-2006, 03:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KR wrote: Bruisers are a better class in every aspect in a raid oriented setting. Monks are a broken class. I've been saying this since t6. I am not going to change to a bruiser though because I have hope that SOE will realize Monks are a broken class and will do something. Either make us better tanks, or give us bruiser dps. One or the other. As it is now we are a ghetto version of a bruiser with a dumb 12 second tsunami which can be used once per fight usually. Again, we are talking raiding here...we aren't talking about a good hybrid for groups/quests/xping. If this was the vision of the Monk class, SOE should have put a note on the class select screen saying "This class will be worthless for endgame content". Since this note did not exist at character creation time...I demand someone to fix the Monk class, or give a one time class change option....to any class desired. I know devs like to respond to opinions like mine with "There are all different play styles and raid styles, and Monks are designed for certain situations". No.....No. That is an excuse from someone who does not raid. As of right now, with the current endgame content, there is ZERO reason to have a Monk in a guild over a Bruiser. And there is ZERO reason to have a bruiser over either a real tank class, or a real dps class. This is a critical problem with this...and nothing is being done about it because a)the majority of the monk player community sees no problem with their class.....because they are not real engame raiders(see why?), and b)The devs who playtest Monks aren't either. Soooo, disagree all you want, there are some people out there who understand what I am talking about. Hopefully this number will grow until something is done to the Brawler archtype all together. We are a misfit archtype with the guise of "situational uses". I knew that going into the class but hoped there would be SOME reason for my existance in the endgame content. As it is now, you either have fix mitigation/avoidance for gods sake, make us tanks, or make us dps, or give us something actually good enough for someone to say, "hey, we need a brawler for this 24 man raid". Has anyone ever heard that?(not princes) Message Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:00 PM Message Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:01 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> You have a very good point here KR i have been stressing this also for a long time. i feel useless with my monk. (/ducks from all the others gona bombard me for saying that... calling me noob and saying that i dont know how to play my toon) but seriously, us monks dont have GREAT dps nor do we have GREAT tanking abilities. there is no use for us in a raid... i look for groups 24/7 and nobody wants to pick me up cause they have assassins, wizards, conj's, guards, SK, Zerkers.... its a overworked and underpaid class. we dont have any spot to fill unless somone cant fill that last DPS spot or cant find a tank. YES people that know me invite me all the time just because they know how i play but if its just some pickup group, i wont get an invite because most of the eq2 world looks down upon monks... i blieve that there are 2 reasons for this 1) not many people play monks (even bruisers for that matter) 2)we arent really that great at what we are given (in comparison to other classes) KR is right, we need something that will make us NEEDED in a group... so what i can FD the group if things get bad. what other utility do i have besides that and my measly 21% attack speed buff? Neither skill is practical in a raid situation, FD is not a good idea in a raid, 21% HASTE.... i get capped from other buffs so its not really useful. so yes we have decent DPS in raids, we maintain a constant 5-800 DPS depending on the player but besides that where is our role in a raid? can anyone tell me? the only way i got into my raiding guild is that they were new when i got in and so i got myself a firm spot as the MA now... but besides that can anyone tell me what a monks role is in a raid?? remember before answering that question; that almost everyone in this game says "monks are not DPS they are tanks" Message Edited by Taicheese on 06-16-2006 04:32 AM

SweetheartRose

06-16-2006, 03:17 PM

<DIV>Gaige has betrayed the monk class and should be forever banned from this forum <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just kidding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but honestly 9k posts man? shouldn't you have written a doctoral thesis instead .... or perhaps you can roll those posts into one somehow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my PvP monk ... took me a pally,a wiz, a ranger, and a fury to get here and I don't plan on going anywhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to laugh when i see monks crying that bruisers are better, and bruisers crying that monks are better. I think G pointed it out perfectly that they are essentially the same with a few specific differences that cater to playstyle and possibly guild needs but don't make one better than the other.</DIV>

shaolen

06-16-2006, 05:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taicheese wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> You have a very good point here KR i have been stressing this also for a long time. i feel useless with my monk. (/ducks from all the others gona bombard me for saying that... calling me noob and saying that i dont know how to play my toon) but seriously, us monks dont have GREAT dps nor do we have GREAT tanking abilities. there is no use for us in a raid... i look for groups 24/7 and nobody wants to pick me up cause they have assassins, wizards, conj's, guards, SK, Zerkers.... its a overworked and underpaid class. we dont have any spot to fill unless somone cant fill that last DPS spot or cant find a tank. YES people that know me invite me all the time just because they know how i play but if its just some pickup group, i wont get an invite because most of the eq2 world looks down upon monks... i blieve that there are 2 reasons for this</BLOCKQUOTE> 1) not many people play monks (even bruisers for that matter) In my opinion you should play a class that you like, not because others are playing it. 2)we arent really that great at what we are given (in comparison to other classes) Speak for yourself my brother, I think I tank and DPS very well. I may not be the "best" at either but I enjoy being "good" at both. KR is right, we need something that will make us NEEDED in a group... so what i can FD the group if things get bad. what other utility do i have besides that and my measly 21% attack speed buff? Neither skill is practical in a raid situation, FD is not a good idea in a raid, 21% HASTE.... i get capped from other buffs so its not really useful. so yes we have decent DPS in raids, we maintain a constant 5-800 DPS depending on the player but besides that where is our role in a raid? can anyone tell me? the only way i got into my raiding guild is that they were new when i got in and so i got myself a firm spot as the MA now... but besides that can anyone tell me what a monks role is in a raid?? I would call being the MA a very important role in a raid, dont put yourself down. A good MA can keep the raid from a total wipe, or even save the MT from certain death with a timely heal. Group FD is invaluable in my opinion. remember before answering that question; that almost everyone in this game says "monks are not DPS they are tanks" I tend to be in the top 3 when I raid, thats including all T7 stuff with the exception of Deathtoll because I havent been in there yet. But then again I am set up for more of a DPS role. With the exception of a fabled weapon my gear is far from exceptional. I do have almost all masters on my spells though so that makes a difference. Message Edited by Taicheese on 06-16-200604:32 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For those betraying I wish you well.

Stryyfe

06-16-2006, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -UGG-Andy wrote: see..thats the sort of answer i was looking for..and it is interesting..thanks for the info gaige. I wonder what direction the two subclasses will take in the futiure with class specific AA's. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Wipe the brown off your nose. That's exactly what I said in my post... after yelling at you. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Stryyfe

06-16-2006, 07:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taicheese wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KR wrote: Bruisers are a better class in every aspect in a raid oriented setting. Monks are a broken class. I've been saying this since t6. I am not going to change to a bruiser though because I have hope that SOE will realize Monks are a broken class and will do something. Either make us better tanks, or give us bruiser dps. One or the other. As it is now we are a ghetto version of a bruiser with a dumb 12 second tsunami which can be used once per fight usually. Again, we are talking raiding here...we aren't talking about a good hybrid for groups/quests/xping. If this was the vision of the Monk class, SOE should have put a note on the class select screen saying "This class will be worthless for endgame content". Since this note did not exist at character creation time...I demand someone to fix the Monk class, or give a one time class change option....to any class desired. I know devs like to respond to opinions like mine with "There are all different play styles and raid styles, and Monks are designed for certain situations". No.....No. That is an excuse from someone who does not raid. As of right now, with the current endgame content, there is ZERO reason to have a Monk in a guild over a Bruiser. And there is ZERO reason to have a bruiser over either a real tank class, or a real dps class. This is a critical problem with this...and nothing is being done about it because a)the majority of the monk player community sees no problem with their class.....because they are not real engame raiders(see why?), and b)The devs who playtest Monks aren't either. Soooo, disagree all you want, there are some people out there who understand what I am talking about. Hopefully this number will grow until something is done to the Brawler archtype all together. We are a misfit archtype with the guise of "situational uses". I knew that going into the class but hoped there would be SOME reason for my existance in the endgame content. As it is now, you either have fix mitigation/avoidance for gods sake, make us tanks, or make us dps, or give us something actually good enough for someone to say, "hey, we need a brawler for this 24 man raid". Has anyone ever heard that?(not princes) Message Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:00 PM Message Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:01 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> You have a very good point here KR i have been stressing this also for a long time. i feel useless with my monk. (/ducks from all the others gona bombard me for saying that... calling me noob and saying that i dont know how to play my toon) but seriously, us monks dont have GREAT dps nor do we have GREAT tanking abilities. there is no use for us in a raid... i look for groups 24/7 and nobody wants to pick me up cause they have assassins, wizards, conj's, guards, SK, Zerkers.... its a overworked and underpaid class. we dont have any spot to fill unless somone cant fill that last DPS spot or cant find a tank. YES people that know me invite me all the time just because they know how i play but if its just some pickup group, i wont get an invite because most of the eq2 world looks down upon monks... i blieve that there are 2 reasons for this 1) not many people play monks (even bruisers for that matter) 2)we arent really that great at what we are given (in comparison to other classes) KR is right, we need something that will make us NEEDED in a group... so what i can FD the group if things get bad. what other utility do i have besides that and my measly 21% attack speed buff? Neither skill is practical in a raid situation, FD is not a good idea in a raid, 21% HASTE.... i get capped from other buffs so its not really useful. so yes we have decent DPS in raids, we maintain a constant 5-800 DPS depending on the player but besides that where is our role in a raid? can anyone tell me? the only way i got into my raiding guild is that they were new when i got in and so i got myself a firm spot as the MA now... but besides that can anyone tell me what a monks role is in a raid?? remember before answering that question; that almost everyone in this game says "monks are not DPS they are tanks" Message Edited by Taicheese on 06-16-2006 04:32 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Wow, that is crazy that you say that. I post 800-1100 DPS on single target raid encounters every single fight. Only a couple scouts can beat me and usually we tie or are within 100dps from each other. And this is with a Paladin, Templar, Mystic, Troub, and either another melee or a mage. So no huge dps increases there... Without the Troub... and a dirge in the mix, or coercer... I do more.... and that's without weapons and the STR/INT aa's Lets see, I also tank Gorenaire with no problem.... Uhmm Uhmm.. I pull every single encounter with flawlessness thanks to Tsunami and Outward (ok ok, a few go bad)... I can take my entire guild around in a raid encounter if we skip mobs and bypass.... I can offtank when the main tank goes down with Tsunami until he gets back up .... ... there is so many F'n uses I can't even list them and i'm wasting my breath on your disgruntled [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 08:08 AM

Shankonia

06-16-2006, 07:42 PM

I think the main point is that Bruisers are superior to Monks, even if the Monk has better gear. I know this because I see the parses, I see the gear and the stats, and I know the skillsets. The brawler situation is not like Bard, Sorcerer, Druid or any other situation out there. Dirges and Troub's are both distinctly necessary, Templars are the better healers while Inquisitors prevail when it comes to DPS and debuffs. I could make this contrast w/ every other complementing class, however I think every one is readily known and obvious. Brawlers - it isn't. Monk is supposed to be the better tank the bruiser the better dps. Many people think this. Fact is however, bruiser is the better tank, slightly better utility and clearly the better dps. They hold aggro better on both solo and grp encounters - raid included, and their mitigation is cleary better. Sure we get more wisdom for resists, but maxing out any resistance on a bruiser is a breeze. Monks do not get immunities which is huge. I spent day one of the Adventure pack angry becasue I couldn't FD/train my way easily through the zone like I could in any other instance in the game. I'm guessing bruiser immunities could help them do this a bit more easily than my monk can, or cannot really do anymore. Also noticed last night in Lab that I died on trash mob pulls that were once cake - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM - as my Tsunami and Outward Calm failed to do anything. I still love playing a Monk, and will always remain a Monk, but it does seem that the Brawler separation continues to grow in opposite directions and could use a slight tweaking. I only know one person who has both a 70 Monk and a 70 Bruiser and he just recently returned to the game. Maybe you can shed some light on this subject for us Syb. Shangortu Kithicor ToV

DarkMirrax

06-16-2006, 08:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shankonia wrote: I think the main point is that Bruisers are superior to Monks, even if the Monk has better gear. I know this because I see the parses, I see the gear and the stats, and I know the skillsets. The brawler situation is not like Bard, Sorcerer, Druid or any other situation out there. Dirges and Troub's are both distinctly necessary, Templars are the better healers while Inquisitors prevail when it comes to DPS and debuffs. I could make this contrast w/ every other complementing class, however I think every one is readily known and obvious. Brawlers - it isn't. Monk is supposed to be the better tank the bruiser the better dps. Many people think this. Fact is however, bruiser is the better tank, slightly better utility and clearly the better dps. They hold aggro better on both solo and grp encounters - raid included, and their mitigation is cleary better. Sure we get more wisdom for resists, but maxing out any resistance on a bruiser is a breeze. Monks do not get immunities which is huge. I spent day one of the Adventure pack angry becasue I couldn't FD/train my way easily through the zone like I could in any other instance in the game. I'm guessing bruiser immunities could help them do this a bit more easily than my monk can, or cannot really do anymore. Also noticed last night in Lab that I died on trash mob pulls that were once cake - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM - as my Tsunami and Outward Calm failed to do anything. I still love playing a Monk, and will always remain a Monk, but it does seem that the Brawler separation continues to grow in opposite directions and could use a slight tweaking. I only know one person who has both a 70 Monk and a 70 Bruiser and he just recently returned to the game. Maybe you can shed some light on this subject for us Syb. Shangortu Kithicor ToV <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Isnt it plain to see we rock and you suck or so the general consensus is. Truth is there isnt as much disparity from a monk to a brusier as everyone seems to think an equal equipt monk will tank near enough as good as a brusier the only difference is the mitigation which brusier get more off gives them a slight upperhand though the group dps buff is good even when others say it sucks tell that to an assassin your grouped with :smileyvery-happy: Its always going to be the same arguement monks this brusier that and its never going to change the same arguements are going to rage when avoidance tanking is working along par with mitigation tanking and even then it will be who does this better who does that better. you will always get the same response "learn how to play your class and ...... " At the end of the day both classes are comparible just play whichever suits your play style

zabor

06-16-2006, 08:53 PM

I think the main comparison should not be between monk and bruiser, but between brawlers and the rest of the tank classes. Maybe bruisers have a 3 min mitigation buff, but on the long term they share the same problems as we do, which is the unreliability of avoidance compared to mitigation.It has been said previously, at the moment there is no reason why you would want a brawler in your raid (apart from the sad example of the three princes).If you need a tank, either offtank or maintank, get plate. If you need dps, get a real dps class, we cant compete with them.Every class brings something valuable to a raid: Warriors are best tanks, Crusaders just as good and have very nice buffs, healers are well balanced, bards essential utility, enchanters have been fixed i guess, summoners/rogues are debuff/dps classes, and preds/sorcs are pure dps. We don't fit anywhere. We might be decent tanks, but why take a monk if you got a guardian? We do good dps, but we cant replace a ranger. We can do 10s suicide pulls, but pet classes can do the job just as good. And nowadays, almost every class has a pet.We aren't even viable group tanks for harder stuff. HoF groups usually look for plate tanks, and try tanking nizara till the end and tell me you won't be more comfortable with a guardian.

Stryyfe

06-16-2006, 09:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shankonia wrote: I think the main point is that Bruisers are superior to Monks, even if the Monk has better gear. I know this because I see the parses, I see the gear and the stats, and I know the skillsets. The brawler situation is not like Bard, Sorcerer, Druid or any other situation out there. Dirges and Troub's are both distinctly necessary, Templars are the better healers while Inquisitors prevail when it comes to DPS and debuffs. I could make this contrast w/ every other complementing class, however I think every one is readily known and obvious. Brawlers - it isn't. Monk is supposed to be the better tank the bruiser the better dps. Many people think this. Fact is however, bruiser is the better tank, slightly better utility and clearly the better dps. They hold aggro better on both solo and grp encounters - raid included, and their mitigation is cleary better. Sure we get more wisdom for resists, but maxing out any resistance on a bruiser is a breeze. Monks do not get immunities which is huge. I spent day one of the Adventure pack angry becasue I couldn't FD/train my way easily through the zone like I could in any other instance in the game. I'm guessing bruiser immunities could help them do this a bit more easily than my monk can, or cannot really do anymore. Also noticed last night in Lab that I died on trash mob pulls that were once cake - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM - as my Tsunami and Outward Calm failed to do anything. I still love playing a Monk, and will always remain a Monk, but it does seem that the Brawler separation continues to grow in opposite directions and could use a slight tweaking. I only know one person who has both a 70 Monk and a 70 Bruiser and he just recently returned to the game. Maybe you can shed some light on this subject for us Syb. Shangortu Kithicor ToV <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> You just in-validated your entire post in my opinion with the highlighted, underlined statement in yellow. If you think Brusier has even close to the amount of Utility of a monk, you are sadly mistaken. The other highlighted section, is because you aren't that good, I had an easy time doing the same things. You do not need to play a Monk any more. Please betray... I beg you. Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 10:15 AM

Stryyfe

06-16-2006, 09:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote: I think the main comparison should not be between monk and bruiser, but between brawlers and the rest of the tank classes. Maybe bruisers have a 3 min mitigation buff, but on the long term they share the same problems as we do, which is the unreliability of avoidance compared to mitigation. It has been said previously, at the moment there is no reason why you would want a brawler in your raid (apart from the sad example of the three princes). If you need a tank, either offtank or maintank, get plate. If you need dps, get a real dps class, we cant compete with them. Every class brings something valuable to a raid: Warriors are best tanks, Crusaders just as good and have very nice buffs, healers are well balanced, bards essential utility, enchanters have been fixed i guess, summoners/rogues are debuff/dps classes, and preds/sorcs are pure dps. We don't fit anywhere. We might be decent tanks, but why take a monk if you got a guardian? We do good dps, but we cant replace a ranger. We can do 10s suicide pulls, but pet classes can do the job just as good. And nowadays, almost every class has a pet. We aren't even viable group tanks for harder stuff. HoF groups usually look for plate tanks, and try tanking nizara till the end and tell me you won't be more comfortable with a guardian. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I've never had a ranger out-dps me post ranger nerf, and I never will. It appears you have little knowledge of high end game, and little knowledge of raiding, especially on the pulling comment. I agree with you on warriors being the best tanks, pallies aint bad either... but DPS is fine.Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 10:18 AM

Gungo

06-16-2006, 09:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shankonia wrote: I think the main point is that Bruisers are superior to Monks, even if the Monk has better gear. I know this because I see the parses, I see the gear and the stats, and I know the skillsets. No will explain more later The brawler situation is not like Bard, Sorcerer, Druid or any other situation out there. Dirges and Troub's are both distinctly necessary, Templars are the better healers while Inquisitors prevail when it comes to DPS and debuffs. I could make this contrast w/ every other complementing class, however I think every one is readily known and obvious. Brawlers - it isn't. Monk is supposed to be the better tank the bruiser the better dps. Many people think this. Fact is however, bruiser is the better tank, I agree a fabled out raid bruiser is a better tank slightly better utility What utility, i mus tbe missing that spell, because all i got is a 24% master dps buff. I clearly can't pull mobs to raids as well as a monk w tsunami since they still hit me. I can't fake death a group only myself, i can't heal anyone else. What do i add to this so called utlitymore then monks? and clearly the better dps I disagree other then the developers comments stating the exact opposite, monks have an easier time solo, in groups and in raids of reaching thier max dps potential. They hold aggro better on both solo and grp encounters Seriosuly do you even know the difference betwen both classes. Monks have more aoe attacks then bruisers and have a hate proc buff that adds a larger amount of overall hate. The numbers have already been supplied 1 hate = 1 damage. We already extrapolated the numbers and time and avearage damage/hate of a monk vs a bruiser and a monk adds more hate. Not only that but the monk has more aoe dps potential. - raid included, and their mitigation is cleary better Agree bruiser have more mitgation and imho tank better. Sure we get more wisdom for resists, but maxing out any resistance on a bruiser is a breeze wrong, Maxing out resist for a monk is easy, for a bruiser i farm those dang quests in tenbrous tangle for an hour before raids so i cna get close to max resists while switchign out to better resist gear and resist buffs in group. Tradeskill resit potions were removed even w the higher quest potions its not easy and in some cases possible w/o switching to much inferior ressit gear.. Monks do not get immunities which is huge. wait tsunami is not an immunity to physical attacks? You must be talkign about the bruiser close mind spell which gives us 30 secs of immmunity at master 1. But wait doesn't monks have cures for thier immunites anyway. I use both the cure and close mind in general the cure is more versatile in removing additional effects. Clsoe mind is nice but not really a comparison to the utilty that tsunami gives. I spent day one of the Adventure pack angry becasue I couldn't FD/train my way easily through the zone like I could in any other instance in the game. I'm guessing bruiser immunities could help them do this a bit more easily than my monk can, or cannot really do anymore. HAha your complainign you couldnt train through a high lvl zones thats rich. and i seriosuly doubt our 30 sec stun immutinty will let us train through entire zones. We still get hit just as hard. well nto really sinc emonks cna avodi geting hit w tsunami for a small bit. Also noticed last night in Lab that I died on trash mob pulls that were once cake - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM - as my Tsunami and Outward Calm failed to do anything. Thats odd our monk had no rpoblem pulling all but one mob. I still love playing a Monk, and will always remain a Monk, but it does seem that the Brawler separation continues to grow in opposite directions and could use a slight tweaking. Sure does monks seem to have more utility and easier to raise dps. Were the bruiser seems to be a better tank. I only know one person who has both a 70 Monk and a 70 Bruiser and he just recently returned to the game. Maybe you can shed some light on this subject for us Syb. There is actually a few Annaspider? Some other guy in this thread w a 70 monk on pvp server and a 70 bruiser on blue server. Gaige just transfered to bruiser to tank a bit better. Shangortu Kithicor ToV <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

Gungo

06-16-2006, 09:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stryyfe wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote: I think the main comparison should not be between monk and bruiser, but between brawlers and the rest of the tank classes. Maybe bruisers have a 3 min mitigation buff, but on the long term they share the same problems as we do, which is the unreliability of avoidance compared to mitigation. It has been said previously, at the moment there is no reason why you would want a brawler in your raid (apart from the sad example of the three princes). If you need a tank, either offtank or maintank, get plate. If you need dps, get a real dps class, we cant compete with them. Every class brings something valuable to a raid: Warriors are best tanks, Crusaders just as good and have very nice buffs, healers are well balanced, bards essential utility, enchanters have been fixed i guess, summoners/rogues are debuff/dps classes, and preds/sorcs are pure dps. We don't fit anywhere. We might be decent tanks, but why take a monk if you got a guardian? We do good dps, but we cant replace a ranger. We can do 10s suicide pulls, but pet classes can do the job just as good. And nowadays, almost every class has a pet. We aren't even viable group tanks for harder stuff. HoF groups usually look for plate tanks, and try tanking nizara till the end and tell me you won't be more comfortable with a guardian. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I've never had a ranger out-dps me post ranger nerf, and I never will. It appears you have little knowledge of high end game, and little knowledge of raiding, especially on the pulling comment. I agree with you on warriors being the best tanks, pallies aint bad either... but DPS is fine. Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 10:18 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Depends on the ranger. The ranger runs into plateaus. Where without specific upgrades their dps flattens. For instance a ranger who gets the taranix bow summoned T8 ammo and the bow off the monoliths or similar DR bows or specific bows liek the droag proc one. Can not be outdps'd by a brawler.If your ranger uses the grizzzlefang bow and non rare T7 arrows/poisens and you have str AA DPs line or the twin clamities and dps aa's you will outdps the ranger sometimes and only on single targetsMessage Edited by Gungo on 06-16-2006 10:37 AM

abdcefg

06-16-2006, 09:41 PM

As a monk i'd happily swap tsunami for the mit buff, im pretty sure the mitigation over 3 mins would provide me more protection than 12 secs of no dmg. If my avoidance was more efficent so i didn't have to so heavily rely on my mitigation then the small amount of posatives tsunami provides would seem more practical. Even melee AE's from the trash in labs can get nasty and are unavoidable.... where other melee classes can stay put with the higher mitigation i find myself running back waiting for a heal before i get within range. I love my monk and i love tsunami but that mit buff combined with the way avoidance is working seems to me to give bruisers the edge. I personally dont want to betray but i can understand a lot of the reasons some people have and its a shame to monks all round that bruisers have an advantage and we do not, the debuff alone would be an advantage to my guilds raid and we also have another monk so not much is lost... To answer the OP i'd have to say IMO the sun is just shining very brightly on the bruiser side of the fence so its just looking brighter, but i cling to the hope things will change eventually.

Shankonia

06-16-2006, 10:16 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> If you think Brusier has even close to the amount of Utility of a monk, you are sadly mistaken.</BLOCKQUOTE> The other highlighted section, is because you aren't that good, I had an easy time doing the same things. When was this o' master Stryyfe? Before or after LU24? Only been two nights since LU24, and you have stated past generalizations in which i'm fairly certain you have yet to retry on the past two days prior to your posts. Maybe I should put it in perspective for you oh great and knowledgeable one. I pulled two sets of trash mobs in Lab last night after popping my buffs with the intent of splitting them. I've done this exact same pull 20 times, never had a problem. Last night however the first pull resulted in insta-death, and they reset. So I tried it again, this time giving myself more space. I pull mob (x), they social, and before I can FD, I am dead. This time, both groups aggro the raid, and 1/2 of the party dies. So I try again, more space, quicker FD. EVERY TIME, I either died, or FD'd too quickly and they reset. From now on we'll use a pet to pull them from a distance just to be safe. And yes, I realize the tank may have been slow to pluck one of the encounters, yes I realize he could've taunted to bring them all, and yes I realize my feign death may have failed, and yes I realize the tanks taunts may have been resisted. Also, please explain to me how a mob hitting me for slashing damage with Tsunami and Outward calm up makes me not very good? You do it you gain my repect, if you cannot, you will not. Before you bash me again, understand that I do not think we are broken, nor that we are a useless or worthless class by any means. We tank fine, we hold aggro fine, we DPS fine. I love playing a monk, will continue to do so, and will not betray. I think we are a great class. My bruiser is not level up to 50 atm, therefore I cannot make honest factual experienced based comparisions between the two classes. Bruisers are in fact more powerful at lvl 50+, as we all are so I will not claim to "Know" again. This is why I requested the words of wisdom from someone who has either betrayed, or has leveled up both a bruiser and a monk to level 70 and raided on both with competency, tact, top notch surroundings and success. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

masakre

06-16-2006, 10:23 PM

<DIV>I play a 66 monk and a 64 bruiser, and they are very similar with a few CA differences. Monk is consistent dps with all their haste buffs where as bruisers are splurt damage with thier lack of haste, but with bigger hits. The monk has far more utility with tsunami and group fd. The bruiser has ..... the things that gaige mentioned of why he changed classes. They are so similar that it really depends on what interests you have with their minimal difference in CA's. The gear is the same, both wearing pajamas or druid gear. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I outfitted both my toons in exactly the same gear just to see how similar/different they were when they were both 64. Similar aa invested and same mobs being killed. Both could take the same content with the same amount of ease, or difficulty, just two different methods based on CA's and strategy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally like my bruiser better for the fact that there are less on the servers than monks. I see them as [Removed for Content] off drunken brawlers, where as I view a monk as a intelectual fighter (A little RP here, but it suits my interest in the game). Play the toon for what it is, not what you want or envision it to be. Don't complain about your toon not being what you want it to be, becuase every class has a wish list of things they would like different, but no class will ever be everything they wanted and more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Class balance imo is nearly impossible. The only way to completely balance everyone is to give them all the same gear, CA's, strategies, spells, and well..... the same darn toon. There would be a lack of interest in the game if there weren't multiple choices. You have to choose what is right for you, and accept you are not going to be a master of all trades, but rather a specialist in certain aspects of the game.</DIV>Message Edited by masakre on 06-16-2006 11:25 AM

Shankonia

06-16-2006, 10:58 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> Monks do not get immunities which is huge. wait tsunami is not an immunity to physical attacks? It is not an immunity. You must be talkign about the bruiser close mind spell which gives us 30 secs of immmunity at master 1. But wait doesn't monks have cures for thier immunites anyway. Contrary to popular belief, Monks do not have immunities. Bruisers have immunities. Monks do have cures, but our one T7 cure does not cure everything, including trauma which would result from us being hit by a physical AE. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Again, bottom line is Bruisers are better tanks, and have better DPS capability simply because when both are at 100% haste and 100% DPS and have equal gear and AA's, Bruiser is going to dish out more DPS hands down. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

Stryyfe

06-16-2006, 11:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shankonia wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> Monks do not get immunities which is huge. wait tsunami is not an immunity to physical attacks? It is not an immunity. You must be talkign about the bruiser close mind spell which gives us 30 secs of immmunity at master 1. But wait doesn't monks have cures for thier immunites anyway. Contrary to popular belief, Monks do not have immunities. Bruisers have immunities. Monks do have cures, but our one T7 cure does not cure everything, including trauma which would result from us being hit by a physical AE. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Again, bottom line is Bruisers are better tanks, and have better DPS capability simply because when both are at 100% haste and 100% DPS and have equal gear and AA's, Bruiser is going to dish out more DPS hands down. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I notice you removed your Utility comment... that's what I thought. And I disagree on DPS... through longer fights, DPS is the same.

Stryyfe

06-16-2006, 11:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stryyfe wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote: I think the main comparison should not be between monk and bruiser, but between brawlers and the rest of the tank classes. Maybe bruisers have a 3 min mitigation buff, but on the long term they share the same problems as we do, which is the unreliability of avoidance compared to mitigation. It has been said previously, at the moment there is no reason why you would want a brawler in your raid (apart from the sad example of the three princes). If you need a tank, either offtank or maintank, get plate. If you need dps, get a real dps class, we cant compete with them. Every class brings something valuable to a raid: Warriors are best tanks, Crusaders just as good and have very nice buffs, healers are well balanced, bards essential utility, enchanters have been fixed i guess, summoners/rogues are debuff/dps classes, and preds/sorcs are pure dps. We don't fit anywhere. We might be decent tanks, but why take a monk if you got a guardian? We do good dps, but we cant replace a ranger. We can do 10s suicide pulls, but pet classes can do the job just as good. And nowadays, almost every class has a pet. We aren't even viable group tanks for harder stuff. HoF groups usually look for plate tanks, and try tanking nizara till the end and tell me you won't be more comfortable with a guardian. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I've never had a ranger out-dps me post ranger nerf, and I never will. It appears you have little knowledge of high end game, and little knowledge of raiding, especially on the pulling comment. I agree with you on warriors being the best tanks, pallies aint bad either... but DPS is fine. Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 10:18 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Depends on the ranger. The ranger runs into plateaus. Where without specific upgrades their dps flattens. For instance a ranger who gets the taranix bow summoned T8 ammo and the bow off the monoliths or similar DR bows or specific bows liek the droag proc one. Can not be outdps'd by a brawler.If your ranger uses the grizzzlefang bow and non rare T7 arrows/poisens and you have str AA DPs line or the twin clamities and dps aa's you will outdps the ranger sometimes and only on single targets Message Edited by Gungo on 06-16-2006 10:37 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ok ok, I said never... I apologize.. I failed to factor in all of your "what if's" and insane statted weapon possibilities. Post the Ranger's DPS on a single target that has those weapons... and I'll post mine.

06-17-2006, 12:57 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I give a big congrats to the monks who have been saying they are the top 3 in their dps parses. I also have to say your guilds are horrible if that is true. And I mean god awful....if you truly parse in top5. I consider myself to be one of the best monks in this game, with all masters and t7 contested weaponry..and I'm lucky to get on the parse. If I do its like 2-3 notches below a bruiser, who might be 6th on the list. Also. I never stated our dps blew, or our tanking blew. But bruisers beat us in both regards, and real dps and real tanks beat us both. Hence my point...monks are pointless in a raid. Your gonna sit there and try to validate out raid existance with a 12 second normal attack damage resist? Anyone who knows what they are talking about would take a bruisers mit buff any day of the week over that...but then again why wouldn't they just take a real tanking class with pretty much comparible dps, maybe a little less. And don't make yourselves look dumb saying "we are great pullers". A bow and arrow pulls as good as a tsunami/warded monk. Also, there isn't a need to respond to this posting how uber your monk dps is. The fact of the matter is take whatever you parse, and place a real dps class in that group...then see what he parses. Compare that number and get back to me.<div></div>and again, I appreciate the comments from the non-raiding community, and casual raiding community..but my opinions don't have anythign to do with either of those things. I also do not want to be a "master of all things" as one posted mentioned above. I want one thing. Just one. Even hybrid tanks...are still real tanks. This goes back to the mitigation issue and the mechanics of tanking in this games current state. I hoped that with AA's, if implemented correct, could fix the brawler archtype by giving the player the choice of what path they wanted to walk their character down...tanking or dps...but of course soe blew that opportunity. I've gone from full defense aa's, to a full offense build...no different at all. I see they lowered our crit chance AA in lu24 also. GG sony.I also agree with Ryza on the fact that my opinions are not really geared to show differences between Monks and Bruisers. Any comparisons I use between the two are just to illustrate the pointlessness of a Monk. My main issue is with the brawler archtype in general. Arguing over whats better a Monk or Bruiser is like arguing over "do I want a crappy class or a crappier class in this raid" No point in arguing that really... I think its an agreed upon fact that bruisers tank and dps better at an inherent level. So yes. Brawler as an archtype is more of the focus of my rants.Message Edited by KR on 06-16-2006 02:28 PM

Gungo

06-17-2006, 04:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shankonia wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> Monks do not get immunities which is huge. wait tsunami is not an immunity to physical attacks? It is not an immunity. You must be talkign about the bruiser close mind spell which gives us 30 secs of immmunity at master 1. But wait doesn't monks have cures for thier immunites anyway. Contrary to popular belief, Monks do not have immunities. Bruisers have immunities. Monks do have cures, but our one T7 cure does not cure everything, including trauma which would result from us being hit by a physical AE. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Again, bottom line is Bruisers are better tanks, and have better DPS capability simply because when both are at 100% haste and 100% DPS and have equal gear and AA's, Bruiser is going to dish out more DPS hands down. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I want you to set up that theoretical group. Now After you do that set up the same theoretical group for a monk. Now you see where you place that extra illusinsit you didnt need for the monk you cna place an assasin or wizard for thier procs. OMG in this theorectical max dps group the monk does more dps becasue the assasin proc or the wizard proc or the (insert class here) proc actually adds more then the 3% boost the bruiser offensive proc adds at master 1. Yes the bruiser offensive stance is that bad.

Gungo

06-17-2006, 04:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stryyfe wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stryyfe wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote: I think the main comparison should not be between monk and bruiser, but between brawlers and the rest of the tank classes. Maybe bruisers have a 3 min mitigation buff, but on the long term they share the same problems as we do, which is the unreliability of avoidance compared to mitigation. It has been said previously, at the moment there is no reason why you would want a brawler in your raid (apart from the sad example of the three princes). If you need a tank, either offtank or maintank, get plate. If you need dps, get a real dps class, we cant compete with them. Every class brings something valuable to a raid: Warriors are best tanks, Crusaders just as good and have very nice buffs, healers are well balanced, bards essential utility, enchanters have been fixed i guess, summoners/rogues are debuff/dps classes, and preds/sorcs are pure dps. We don't fit anywhere. We might be decent tanks, but why take a monk if you got a guardian? We do good dps, but we cant replace a ranger. We can do 10s suicide pulls, but pet classes can do the job just as good. And nowadays, almost every class has a pet. We aren't even viable group tanks for harder stuff. HoF groups usually look for plate tanks, and try tanking nizara till the end and tell me you won't be more comfortable with a guardian. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I've never had a ranger out-dps me post ranger nerf, and I never will. It appears you have little knowledge of high end game, and little knowledge of raiding, especially on the pulling comment. I agree with you on warriors being the best tanks, pallies aint bad either... but DPS is fine. Message Edited by Stryyfe on 06-16-2006 10:18 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Depends on the ranger. The ranger runs into plateaus. Where without specific upgrades their dps flattens. For instance a ranger who gets the taranix bow summoned T8 ammo and the bow off the monoliths or similar DR bows or specific bows liek the droag proc one. Can not be outdps'd by a brawler.If your ranger uses the grizzzlefang bow and non rare T7 arrows/poisens and you have str AA DPs line or the twin clamities and dps aa's you will outdps the ranger sometimes and only on single targets Message Edited by Gungo on 06-16-2006 10:37 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ok ok, I said never... I apologize.. I failed to factor in all of your "what if's" and insane statted weapon possibilities. Post the Ranger's DPS on a single target that has those weapons... and I'll post mine. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its not a what if post. Its a comparison and its basically there to say a ranger should always outdps a brawler. On more then 1 mob ther eis no way a brawler doe smroe dps. ON single targets you really need to have a poorly played/geared ranger w a well geared dps build brawler for the brawler to outdps them.

zabor

06-17-2006, 04:34 AM

<blockquote><hr>KR wrote:<div>I give a big congrats to the monks who have been saying they are the top 3 in their dps parses. I also have to say your guilds are horrible if that is true. And I mean god awful....if you truly parse in top5. I consider myself to be one of the best monks in this game, with all masters and t7 contested weaponry..and I'm lucky to get on the parse. If I do its like 2-3 notches below a bruiser, who might be 6th on the list.<hr></blockquote>Yes, this is true. I would be so embarrassed if i continuously did top3 on dps parses of my guild, always outdpsing my guild ranger, i think i would never post about it on a public board. It doesn't mean, that monk dps is uber, it means, your folks are slacking really really bad.Message Edited by zaboron on 06-17-2006 02:35 AM

shaolen

06-19-2006, 06:16 PM

<DIV>The arrogance of some of you guys is really hard to swallow sometimes.</DIV>

SwissArmySh

06-19-2006, 07:02 PM

From my experience, when there are broken aspects to a class as far as balancing is concerned there is generally a much more unanimous agreement across the majority. Now I'm not saying that there is or isn't an imbalance, but from what I am reading here, if there is then it is negligible. When a debate of this nature has such a huge for and against argument(even on the Bruiser boards) then that usually satisfies my curiosity that the actual 'truth' of the matter is that Monks and Bruisers are pretty much balanced (or close enough) I can say from the opinion of a 54 Monk that I can't see much difference between the two(but then I'm only 54) apart from their stated differences. The only contradiction as such is the higher Mitigation that Bruisers achieve for Raid mobs over a (more defensive) Monk. But then, as already stated the Monk has more utility to make up for it. As far as standard group/named heroic tanking is concerned, then I think it would be hard to say who is definitively a better tank. If raid tanking is you main enjoyment then I would betray to fulfill that need. Peace

Pnaxx

06-19-2006, 11:46 PM

<DIV> <DIV>The arrogance of some of you guys is really hard to swallow sometimes.</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/182/colani2qq.gif"></DIV></DIV> It's not our "arrogance"that is hard to swallow.:smileywink:

Lildebbie

06-20-2006, 03:20 AM

well i betrayed at level 17 once it became available on Venekor. i had 38 human monk but i have always wanted a dark elf, so i rerolled. anyhow, i was tremendously disappointed at my ability to tank as a bruiser. plus, they don't get the killer animations we do and they look like crap, and isn't that what it's all about.

shaolen

06-20-2006, 06:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pnaxx wrote: <DIV> <DIV>The arrogance of some of you guys is really hard to swallow sometimes.</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/182/colani2qq.gif"></DIV></DIV> It's not our "arrogance"that is hard to swallow.:smileywink: <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sorry, not sure what you mean by that

SwissArmySh

06-20-2006, 03:06 PM

An apple a day gathers no moss :smileyindifferent:

Raidi Sovin'faile

06-21-2006, 02:03 AM

We aren't even viable group tanks for harder stuff. HoF groups usually look for plate tanks, and try tanking nizara till the end and tell me you won't be more comfortable with a guardian. Well, for one thing I can tank HoF easily. That zone is cake as long as you have priests paying attention and getting rid of your debilitate. Plate tanks die just as fast when hit with -5000 mitigation debuffs. Try schooling your priests a bit.. then you can school that zone, lol! As for Nizara... funny you should mention it, but I was just in there the other night and there was a couple situations where I was crucial to our progress. First part was pulling... knockbacks are killer in that multi-leveled zone, and we had to pull some nasty nameds down to safer areas. The SK tried to pull... got stunned partway down the ramp, got far too low on health, and died quickly when we all got settled (even with two healers, one a mystic and they set up their preheals). Then the assassin tried to surveil.. right.. he got nailed and died on the way back down the ramp. The Brigand also tried, but just managed to pull it into the room and they went all over killing one of the priests. So I told them I'd try it. Ran up, tossed on protections, and did group taunt... ran down to the pull spot and once the SK did his group taunt, I FD'd to clear aggro and voila... perfect pull. It's the group taunt + shedding aggro that helped... the SK could try and FD the others, but not while trying to get group taunt off... Plus, I was barely damaged. Being that I'm a Bruiser, I had Close Mind and Stone Deaf up... absorbed two nukes for 4k each, and immune to stuns/roots, etc. Maybe I'm a better puller than a monk would have been, but Monks have cure and I never used my self heal (which the monk could have used as well). The second part was when we faced those Named that love to heal themselves. One wasn't too hard, but the second would pop off a 30k heal every once in a while. In power conserve mode, the SK could not hold aggro (we didn't have an enchanter or bard). I told him I had a hate proc that works on autoattack, and abilities that use health instead of power. So I tried tanking and never lost aggro once. Also, never died... but that might have had something to do with spamming Stone Deaf and my self heal. Although, a monk would have tsunami on those physical attacks, so just a different area of expertise I think. You can use +haste to get far more autoattack damage than myself in that same group set up, and a higher proc % on the hate too (especially combining those). Also, with the change to intercede, and our ability to heal ourselves, having an offtank really, really helps now. Our raids have started using it lately... all the tanks see the MT hit orange or red, slap on intercede and you've just saved a wipe. Who cares if some random tank that's DPSing is low on health or dies... as long as the MT lives, the raid can survive. Whenever I took the hit like that, I could slap on my self heal... virtually no strain on any healer and just saved a cluster [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. That and our offtank buff helps more than others. Staying in at least mid-stance with that offtank buff means we can give the Tank a 40% chance to use our 70% avoidance for another check to avoid. It's like having another shield! Most tanks use that offtank buff to get the little bit of extra agility or defense... but it really should be the offtank putting that on the tank. The benefits far outweigh that small benefit... and it's really only there to buff the offtank's avoidance while in offense mode so he can deflect the hit better when it goes off. In a Brawler vs Othe Tanks sense... we are really pumped up for Offtanking role... but I've seen plenty of situations where we are VERY effective at tanking. Sometimes, procs on attacks work better to hold aggro than procs when hit. It's those situations where the Brawler should really be stepping in.

DarkMirrax

06-21-2006, 05:58 PM

dibilitate been nurfed in hof , hardly any mobs using it now from what i saw the other night which i thought was wierd but the warden confrimed it aswell .. anyone else notice this ?

Gungo

06-21-2006, 06:31 PM

Thats ok i figured Hof would be nerfed soon nazira = the new HoF. As long as the mobs still occasionaly cast debilitate it will keep healers on thier toes. And it can allow a most single healers in a casual group to heal that zone. The loot in HoF wasn't anything super. I guess i am saying nerf or not it doesnt really affect me nor bother me. But i do want them to leave nazira alone, well maybe they can upgrade the loot table there to reflect an epic x2 zone with a 3 day lockout.

SwissArmySh

06-22-2006, 03:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote: We aren't even viable group tanks for harder stuff. HoF groups usually look for plate tanks, and try tanking nizara till the end and tell me you won't be more comfortable with a guardian. Well, for one thing I can tank HoF easily. That zone is cake as long as you have priests paying attention and getting rid of your debilitate. Plate tanks die just as fast when hit with -5000 mitigation debuffs. Try schooling your priests a bit.. then you can school that zone, lol! As for Nizara... funny you should mention it, but I was just in there the other night and there was a couple situations where I was crucial to our progress. First part was pulling... knockbacks are killer in that multi-leveled zone, and we had to pull some nasty nameds down to safer areas. The SK tried to pull... got stunned partway down the ramp, got far too low on health, and died quickly when we all got settled (even with two healers, one a mystic and they set up their preheals). Then the assassin tried to surveil.. right.. he got nailed and died on the way back down the ramp. The Brigand also tried, but just managed to pull it into the room and they went all over killing one of the priests. So I told them I'd try it. Ran up, tossed on protections, and did group taunt... ran down to the pull spot and once the SK did his group taunt, I FD'd to clear aggro and voila... perfect pull. It's the group taunt + shedding aggro that helped... the SK could try and FD the others, but not while trying to get group taunt off... Plus, I was barely damaged. Being that I'm a Bruiser, I had Close Mind and Stone Deaf up... absorbed two nukes for 4k each, and immune to stuns/roots, etc. Maybe I'm a better puller than a monk would have been, but Monks have cure and I never used my self heal (which the monk could have used as well). The second part was when we faced those Named that love to heal themselves. One wasn't too hard, but the second would pop off a 30k heal every once in a while. In power conserve mode, the SK could not hold aggro (we didn't have an enchanter or bard). I told him I had a hate proc that works on autoattack, and abilities that use health instead of power. So I tried tanking and never lost aggro once. Also, never died... but that might have had something to do with spamming Stone Deaf and my self heal. Although, a monk would have tsunami on those physical attacks, so just a different area of expertise I think. You can use +haste to get far more autoattack damage than myself in that same group set up, and a higher proc % on the hate too (especially combining those). Also, with the change to intercede, and our ability to heal ourselves, having an offtank really, really helps now. Our raids have started using it lately... all the tanks see the MT hit orange or red, slap on intercede and you've just saved a wipe. Who cares if some random tank that's DPSing is low on health or dies... as long as the MT lives, the raid can survive. Whenever I took the hit like that, I could slap on my self heal... virtually no strain on any healer and just saved a cluster [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. That and our offtank buff helps more than others. Staying in at least mid-stance with that offtank buff means we can give the Tank a 40% chance to use our 70% avoidance for another check to avoid. It's like having another shield! Most tanks use that offtank buff to get the little bit of extra agility or defense... but it really should be the offtank putting that on the tank. The benefits far outweigh that small benefit... and it's really only there to buff the offtank's avoidance while in offense mode so he can deflect the hit better when it goes off. In a Brawler vs Othe Tanks sense... we are really pumped up for Offtanking role... but I've seen plenty of situations where we are VERY effective at tanking. Sometimes, procs on attacks work better to hold aggro than procs when hit. It's those situations where the Brawler should really be stepping in. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> This is pretty much what i mensioned in another post but you have given examples making it much clearer. I agree 100%

Miroh

06-22-2006, 04:06 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>KR wrote:<div></div><div></div>Bruisers are a better class in every aspect in a raid oriented setting. Monks are a broken class. I've been saying this since t6. I am not going to change to a bruiser though because I have hope that SOE will realize Monks are a broken class and will do something. Either make us better tanks, or give us bruiser dps. One or the other. As it is now we are a ghetto version of a bruiser with a dumb 12 second tsunami which can be used once per fight usually. Again, we are talking raiding here...we aren't talking about a good hybrid for groups/quests/xping. If this was the vision of the Monk class, SOE should have put a note on the class select screen saying "This class will be worthless for endgame content". Since this note did not exist at character creation time...I demand someone to fix the Monk class, or give a one time class change option....to any class desired.I know devs like to respond to opinions like mine with "There are all different play styles and raid styles, and Monks are designed for certain situations". No.....No. That is an excuse from someone who does not raid. As of right now, with the current endgame content, there is ZERO reason to have a Monk in a guild over a Bruiser. And there is ZERO reason to have a bruiser over either a real tank class, or a real dps class. This is a critical problem with this...and nothing is being done about it because a)the majority of the monk player community sees no problem with their class.....because they are not real engame raiders(see why?), and b)The devs who playtest Monks aren't either. Soooo, disagree all you want, there are some people out there who understand what I am talking about. Hopefully this number will grow until something is done to the Brawler archtype all together. We are a misfit archtype with the guise of "situational uses". I knew that going into the class but hoped there would be SOME reason for my existance in the endgame content. As it is now, you either have fix mitigation/avoidance for gods sake, make us tanks, or make us dps, or give us something actually good enough for someone to say, "hey, we need a brawler for this 24 man raid". Has anyone ever heard that?(not princes)<div></div>Message Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:00 PMMessage Edited by KR on 06-15-2006 03:01 PM<hr></blockquote> You couldn't be any more wrong. Do you even know the monk class? Honestly? Bruisers bring one thing to a raid group....dps buff thats all. You can throw in another class that gives better dps and has more buffs to add. Monks sure we have a haste buff but if you want to compair them tanking...Haste=more hate not dps. The faster you swing the more you [Removed for Content] a mob off and with 100% haste during most groups and raids with your hate proc you can easily keep agro. We have tsunami and outward calm to help us with pulls and fighting. Lets not forget our lovely group FD to save a nice run back from a wipe, that is if the mob isn't AE'ing like nuts. As far as utility, Monks have better and can be more relied upon. As far as tanking, sure Bruisers get the mit buff but we as monks keep agro better due to our speed. lol Why you think EC has no bruisers...because there is no point. Sorry but thats the bottom line, you can argue all you like but the fact remains...monks are more wanted in a raid. I tank epics fine so you complaining about making us better tanks seems to be a personal issue, you not being able to tank like other monks. Stop crying to change the monk class and learn to play it or re-roll if you can't. Deal with the lack of taunts, deal with the lack of mit, deal with the non dps buff...You see bruisers crying for a haste buff?? Why you crying for their dps buff? </div>

Gaige

06-22-2006, 09:54 PM

Miroh you're so silly. You're like an angry little kid repeating something he saw on TV but getting the specifics wrong. As a bruiser when I'm offtanking I almost always have 100% haste. I'm pretty close to 100% haste when I am tanking, plus I have my dps mod. The mitigation buff is huge and it puts me pretty close to 79% mitigation atm (I need new bracers and ring of the cause) while raid tanking. Bruisers also have a worthwhile debuff, versus the monk's lackluster debuff. For outward calm we have stone deaf, which works basically the same way. For tsunami we have close mind, and while not as good it certainly gets the job done. The dps done by both classes is pretty much even. I do decent dps (compared to Shifu) even with my straight tanking build. As for group fd... you can have it. Group fd or fd accomplishes the same thing - it prevents the raid from wiping. So I fail to see how you have better utility. As for EC having no monks. Don't ask me. I was surprised Esar didn't make you betray, since he is the main monk and all.

Zigmun

06-23-2006, 12:01 AM

"For tsunami we have close mind, and while not as good it certainly gets the job done." Actually Gaige you are wrong. Tsunami and Closed Mind are very different animals - so it's application is quite different. So your statement is very misleading. Tsunami is a very good Monk class ability. Closed Mind does nothing remotely even close to what Tsunami does. Tsunami is a great pulling tool for one main reason - It allows the Monk to take the first few hits off a tough epic mob and basically "laugh it off". The fact that some raiding guilds choose not to use this ability because SoE has dumbed down pulling in this game and strategy doesn't mean that it's not a good ability when used right. The Bruiser has no such ability. Please offer balanced opinions. To put things in perspective (balanced) the Monk argueably makes a better pulling class - while the Bruiser makes a better off tanking class. dps is roughly equal. So it comes down to which role you prefer to play / and how your guild raids.

-UGG-Andy

06-23-2006, 12:12 AM

Tsunami is not reliable,when i pull a raid mob with it up im lucky to not get one shotted with hammer fist or something right through it..you cannot rely on it anymore,simple as that. The other thing that happens to me on pulls is stun/mez/fear..then i die.great. Thats why our guild bruiser pulls,close mind is reliable,so hes absolutely not gonna get stunned/mez/feared. With his mit buff and that stoneskin,hes also less likely to get one or two shotted for 10k damage or so.Cos mit is reliable,and tsunami is not. Thats how it goes in my experiance.

Gaige

06-23-2006, 12:54 AM

Which was exactly my point. Plenty of times as a monk pulling with tsunami I'd get hit with a CA through it or the mob would miss but I'd still get stunned, feared, etc. Tsunami would wear off before I got back to the raid, and I'd die. So like I said, its a toss up.

Gungo

06-23-2006, 01:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: Miroh you're so silly. You're like an angry little kid repeating something he saw on TV but getting the specifics wrong. As a bruiser when I'm offtanking I almost always have 100% haste. I'm pretty close to 100% haste when I am tanking, plus I have my dps mod. The mitigation buff is huge and it puts me pretty close to 79% mitigation atm (I need new bracers and ring of the cause) while raid tanking. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> How in an offtank group are you hitting 100% haste? Lets see illusinist 46% + dt access item 23% + inquisitor ~23% + troub ~30% Btw those classes i mentioned are probably just as good to place in a DPS group. Which is the same as a monk who grouped w coecer/inqusitor/dirge fro dsp. and seriosuly whats with the bruiser hate. Monks have issues sure and so do bruisers. monks are crying bruisers have more mitgation brusiers are crying zerkers still tank better and do more dps. if you have a problem with yoru class fix it. the 2 issues i see with the monk class is the need for a mitgation AA path for tanking monks/bruisers AND the emergency 30 sec stun miti buff needs to be made instant cast. Bruisers need some type of spike damage preventer such as tsunami, My recommendation was to have a 3 hit stone skin proc or make stone deaf absorb 3 spell OR melee hits. also SoE should bring fake death spliitign encoutners back into raiding.Message Edited by Gungo on 06-22-2006 02:38 PM

-UGG-Andy

06-23-2006, 11:15 AM

<DIV>Well,i don't have no bruiser hate,i just think they got a good few advantages over monks,and i'd like to see things evened out a bit,and NOT by nerfing bruisers..i think they are fine,and that monks could do with a *little* love,however i don't expect any changes until class specific AA's are introduced with EoF.</DIV> <DIV>As for zerkers,thats a whole other matter,and yeh..they seem to have it very very good atm,but after all,zerkers are not the flip side of the brawler coin..bruisers are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways,i agree with the idea that we need something to bring to a raid..other than some dps and fd.(i think every class should have something they bring to the table no one else can)Maybe with the new direction they are taking with the mobs large social aggro radius,the classic eq1 role i hear monks filled might become a reality in eq2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for bruisers getting a tsunami type spell to prevent spike damage,i wish monks had one..those 11k combat arts are what it lets through,and that def spike damage in my book :smileytongue:</DIV>

Gungo

06-23-2006, 05:35 PM

If there is an issue with tsunami and combat arts going through then that ability is bugged. It is suppose to prevent all melee damage. the warrior version afaik does prevent all melee dps. If its a spell that does physical damage well there really is not much you can do about that. I do see imbalances in the monk class, but i don't think that is directly asssociated with bruisers at all. If anything bruisers are balanced more to what the rest of the fighter archtype can do and monks need a little tweaking. I also agree i doubt SoE will change the current AA setup to include mitigation. The main reason i am campaigning for a mitigation AA is because when SoE adds the new AA paths in EoF i want to make sure they include that AA in the brawler trees. And monks have thier advantages over bruisers namely in thier solo and small group dps, thier hate gain, and tsunami.

Timzil

06-23-2006, 06:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: The choice was easy. I did it because it was the best choice for my playstyle and my guild - not because monks suck. Quite the contrary I loved the monk class, it just wasn't the best choice for me anymore. Message Edited by Gaige on 06-15-2006 11:43 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Too bad that you couldn't betray to, or create, a plate class back preLU13 when apparently that would have been the better choice for you. I guess the bruiser class should be relieved that it only cost you a few plat to get what you wanted this time, else you might have been championing their nerfage to the lowest denominator as well.

scalzo

06-23-2006, 06:34 PM

I lub my Monk :smileytongue: Besides Frogloks dont belong in Freeport! They didnt help us when the Ogres attacked :smileymad:

Gaige

06-23-2006, 09:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timzilla wrote: Too bad that you couldn't betray to, or create, a plate class back preLU13 when apparently that would have been the better choice for you. I guess the bruiser class should be relieved that it only cost you a few plat to get what you wanted this time, else you might have been championing their nerfage to the lowest denominator as well. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Blah blah blah. I could care less about all you people who whined that I campaigned for changes that weren't positive for the monk class. You need to get it through your head that at best we're a hybrid so our dps will never compare to a real dps class. Asking for improved tanking was the only thing that made sense when our class truly was searching for an identity. I feel no sorrow in posting all the stuff I did and the eventual changes that came from my and other player's posts. I've played a monk (and now bruiser) since beta. I've seen the mechanics of the class since the beginning and I asure you that its a way better class now then it was at release. As for the mitigation AA we had it in beta and it was removed.Message Edited by Gaige on 06-23-2006 10:07 AM

Xendo

06-28-2006, 07:30 AM

<DIV>The big issue that concerns me as a Monk is the current haste cap as most see it. It is not at all difficult to be max haste (100%) as a monk. Aside from the temporary effects from str imbued rings, are there any equipment to give +% dps? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will monks be allowed superhuman haste into T8 and beyond (120% 150% or whatever seems appropriate) or perhaps simply leaveing the 100% haste self capped but can move beyond under outside haste (chanter/bard whatever)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is a Weapons % to proc affected by haste? (i'm actually quite curious about that one cuz it should IMO (if it isn't) or is it locked to the % per 3 sec rule?) (if I swing the same weapon twice as fast I should proc twice as often right?) It's prolly true but I could use the verification.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know of any answers to these questions at this time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance has been a concern of mine as well its gotten better in recent days for me but it always seems to me the brawler is the better tank if the mob cons green.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My theory is the calculations on the chance to avoid hits are adjusting too strongly over level differences) Results:</DIV> <DIV>Red and Orange Mobs avoidance fails miserably face it you're gonna get hit alot Mitigation and High HPs are your best bet.</DIV> <DIV>Yellows Mobs Hits are frequent and not as damageing but nothing a good healer (or 2) can stop. Avoidance works so-so still Mitigation and high HPs rules the day Avoidance can give a break or 2 but lack of mitigation can erase that in a hurry as well.</DIV> <DIV>Evens (white) Mobs Ideal contrast between avoidance and mitigation. any fighter archetype suits this role well.</DIV> <DIV>Blue Mobs Avoidance starts to shine mobs hits are also much lighter as well. Making Mitigation a bit less vital as most healers have little difficulty.</DIV> <DIV>Green Mobs Avoidance is somewhat excessively overpowered Hits are far and in between plus damages when they do hit are even further reduced. Soloing isn't out of the question at this point for the avoidance tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mit tanks fare better the higher the con avoidance tanks fare better the lower the con.</DIV> <DIV>Mit tanks are more consistent over the con spectrum where as avoidance tanks are more punished on the high end and more rewarded on the low end. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But Hey I still love the monk in the end. Just uncertain what is to become of us when we move into T8 and beyond? Am I gonna be able to cap haste without Everburning flame line? Is there even gonna be a cap on haste? Is there gonna be more content that'll slow raising a need for excessive haste?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too soon to tell. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> Message Edited by Xendo on 06-27-2006 08:31 PMMessage Edited by Xendo on 06-27-2006 08:41 PM

-UGG-Andy

06-28-2006, 10:40 AM

the lower a mob is compared to the person its trying to hit,the less it hits,and the less it can hit for..this works for every class,not just brawlers..if your fighting green mobs,you don't need a tank at all.They are gonna go down so fast and hardly hit its not worth bothering.I can take my brigand and kill a lvl63^^^ mob before it even hits me-why would anyone need a tank for that? Its hardly something to be pleased about,and no,brawlers are not the best to tank greens imo,a plate tank still is..cos they mit more against greens aswell as avoid more. Thats my personal experiance,based on running through claymore in SoS vs green mobs with my 3 toons both solo and in groups doing various roles. And yes,i hate the place now and it gives me nightmares..:robotvery-happy: As for haste its easily capped now,never mind in t8...i can only conclude we are either not gonna get upgrades or they are going to have to re think what our off stance etc does. I think that 100% haste does help with procs..not something i've really looked into though.Message Edited by -UGG-Andy on 06-27-2006 11:51 PM

Miroh

06-28-2006, 11:43 AM

All I have ever seen from you is this Gaige, I did this for this and I do that for that. Always been about what you want. Why don't you shut the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up for once and actually let others state their opinions on whats going on instead of always butting in with your 2 cents trying to shut others up. How bout that. <div></div>

scalzo

06-28-2006, 11:49 AM

Is the Gaige / Miroh war in full gear now?

Miroh

06-28-2006, 12:02 PM

Just tired of this Self-Rightous crusade<div></div>

-UGG-Andy

06-28-2006, 02:01 PM

<DIV>How about we have some discussions without flaming and personal attacks?</DIV> <DIV>Lets just stick to constructive discussions,they might actually get us somewhere.All this childish flaming and attacking people just gets threads locked.</DIV>

Miroh

06-28-2006, 04:00 PM

All for it....<div></div>

Gungo

06-28-2006, 04:22 PM

That would be good at least gaige's thread whether you agree with his observations or not contain personal experience/opinions and other relevent information to the subject at hand. If you agree with his position or not his threads always contain relvent information. Miroh on the otherhand contianed nothing in his threads of merit. Instead since his views are different to that of giage he decided it was in the communities best interest to insult gaige and condemn him for stating his opinion. There is a word for people like that. "bigot" : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices a little more trust in the community to decide which view and position they stand behind is needed by him. Whether or not he thinks gaige is on some "crusade". Who gives miroh the right to persecute him. Most of us are grown adults and are able to form our own opinion and views and miroh's decision to point out such injusticies is actually quite insulting. In other words if you do not agree with gaige says state your side of the debate list your "facts" and move on. Calling people names and swearing does little more then obscure your point and make you seem foolish.Message Edited by Gungo on 06-28-2006 05:27 AM

StarryEyedElf

06-28-2006, 06:05 PM

The personal attacks are a bit much guys... can we chill with them a bit? If I have to come back here, it'll be to lock this thread... <div></div>

Miroh

06-28-2006, 06:57 PM

Yes ma'am <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

Shankonia

06-28-2006, 09:56 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: And monks have thier advantages over bruisers namely in thier solo and small group dps, thier hate gain, and tsunami. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Of these apparent advantages Monks have over Bruisers, there is such a fine line between the two classes on each that it's barely noticeable, if they even exist at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only true advantage that can clearly been seen imo, is that we have a better heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know how this thread turned into a perceptive Bruiser bash, but I think Brusiers are just fine. I've been playing this game as a Monk from the start and i've served my time. Two things that eat me up however and are really starting to tick me off:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) It seems that at least 75% of the players i've played with on 2 different severs think that Bruisers are Monks. A Bruiser goes and does something great, the wrong plate tank see it, and then runs around shouting Monks need to be nerfed. For example, a guild grp of mine was in Nizara a few weeks ago, and I get a tell "We need you to come tank Nizara. So and so beat the zone earlier and said it was cake with a Monk tanking." So I find out who beat the zone earlier and send him a tell asking who the tank, or Monk was. He told me who it was, and of course, it was a Bruiser. Different class hats would help. As would maybe a tag line when examined that says "Monk (no immunities, less dps, less Mit, but we can group FD)."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.) As an officer in my guild, it sometimes pains me that i'm in there instead of my dirge after a wipe. I love playing my Monk, I love the class, I have all but 3 Masters, I parse 800+ dps per fight every time, I can get any resist up to where I need it for any mob, I can self buff 8k hp, I can pull just fine when needed.....but come on. I look at the raid setup, and usually if I had to pick one person to drop to bring in that extra little dps push that will put us on top(a dirge w/ adept 3 skills and a few masters), it's usually going to be me. Not the brusier who has 1/2 the Masters and 1/2 the gear. Not the Zerker who sometimes beats me on the parse and helps his group out a whole lot more, but me - the Monk. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, if Tsunami and my cure worked every single time it would probably be a different story. At least 3 people in my group didn't have to run all the way back to the encounter - of course had we not wiped they wouldn't had to have done it anyway. </DIV>

Gungo

06-28-2006, 10:36 PM

wait why wouldn't you remove the bruiser instead of the monk? neither class offers a whole lot to the raid. But the monk can at least heal the tank, rescue and tsunami an add, group fake death in wipes, and be less reliant on class setups for haste. What does the bruiser bring instead? Similar dps and none of the above.

-UGG-Andy

06-29-2006, 01:07 AM

Neither brawler is raid essential i think..we do have the odd nice trick though. Group fd saves on repairs and can help raids recover fast or depending on zone avoid a lockout...single fd does that too,and lots of classes have it.Basically small advantage to monk here,cos they save there guildies some repair money. Both brawlers can be good for pulling a mob,bruisers are more reliable for this though,stun/mez immune plus temp mit boost means they are more likely to survive a pull-tsunami is unreliable,and several times i was hit for up to 11k damage straight through that and my ward,or i was mezzed/stunned/feared and then killed.Advantage bruiser. Dps-in the same groups the bruiser typically beats the monk,due to higher damage combat arts.You need to take specific aa lines to compete with a bruiser,and run your hp drain for haste buff,and be in offensive stance-just to match a bruiser in balanced.When tanking a monk loses haste,and falls even further behind the dps a bruiser will put out whilst tanking.Advantage bruiser,by a good margin. Tanking-mit is king,plus close mind means bruisers tank hard mobs better,and can be immune to mental effects that would prevent a monk being a possible choice without a 2nd party to provide group stun immune.Advantage bruiser. Heal-bruisers got the advantage using it whilst solo,its faster cast and heals more.Group and raid wise the monk one can sometimes save the mt..where the bruiser one helps keep there own health up from aoe's.About even here. Basically as i see it,brawlers primary role is tanking..bruisers have the advantage. Seconday role is DPS,again..bruisers have advantage. And our utility is about even.

Miroh

06-29-2006, 01:17 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>-UGG-Andy wrote:<div></div> Neither brawler is raid essential i think..we do have the odd nice trick though. Group fd saves on repairs and can help raids recover fast or depending on zone avoid a lockout...single fd does that too,and lots of classes have it.Basically small advantage to monk here,cos they save there guildies some repair money. Both brawlers can be good for pulling a mob,bruisers are more reliable for this though,stun/mez immune plus temp mit boost means they are more likely to survive a pull-tsunami is unreliable,and several times i was hit for up to 11k damage straight through that and my ward,or i was mezzed/stunned/feared and then killed.Advantage bruiser. Dps-in the same groups the bruiser typically beats the monk,due to higher damage combat arts.You need to take specific aa lines to compete with a bruiser,and run your hp drain for haste buff,and be in offensive stance-just to match a bruiser in balanced.When tanking a monk loses haste,and falls even further behind the dps a bruiser will put out whilst tanking.Advantage bruiser,by a good margin. Tanking-mit is king,plus close mind means bruisers tank hard mobs better,and can be immune to mental effects that would prevent a monk being a possible choice without a 2nd party to provide group stun immune.Advantage bruiser. Heal-bruisers got the advantage using it whilst solo,its faster cast and heals more.Group and raid wise the monk one can sometimes save the mt..where the bruiser one helps keep there own health up from aoe's.About even here. Basically as i see it,brawlers primary role is tanking..bruisers have the advantage. Seconday role is DPS,again..bruisers have advantage. And our utility is about even.<hr></blockquote> Tsunami and Outward Calm have limitations. Only do you take dmg if the mob cast a spell that is crushing/pierce/slashing dmg. Outward Calm doesn't register is as a spell due to the physical dmg from it, Tsunami doesn't recognize it due to it technically being a spell.... Sure they can be immune to mental effects but thats what monks are based on, Mental Tanks, thats why you get that lil boost from you stance and can easily pass 10k Mental without really even sacrificing beneficial stats.</div>

Shankonia

06-29-2006, 05:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: wait why wouldn't you remove the bruiser instead of the monk? neither class offers a whole lot to the raid. But the monk can at least heal the tank, rescue and tsunami an add, group fake death in wipes, and be less reliant on class setups for haste. What does the bruiser bring instead? Similar dps and none of the above. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I'm referring to when you need that extra push of DPS to get the mob down. Bring in a Dirge, problem solved. If some other class was in the raid, say a Guard or a Pali for example, sure the Monk would stay. Of course you can juggle groups, and try your hardest to get the slackers to wake up, however from my experiences any time you throw a dirge in a slack melee DPS grp their eyes open up quite a bit without even having to speak up.

scalzo

06-29-2006, 08:53 AM

No Brawler I guess your not going for the 3 Princes then. :smileysurprised:

-UGG-Andy

06-29-2006, 10:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Tsunami and Outward Calm have limitations. Only do you take dmg if the mob cast a spell that is crushing/pierce/slashing dmg. Outward Calm doesn't register is as a spell due to the physical dmg from it, Tsunami doesn't recognize it due to it technically being a spell.... Sure they can be immune to mental effects but thats what monks are based on, Mental Tanks, thats why you get that lil boost from you stance and can easily pass 10k Mental without really even sacrificing beneficial stats. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> yes,those are the limitations i was referring too,it happens frequently enough in my experiance to be a major issue. And my entire point is they don't need to stack resists at all,they just got a skill that does it,an immune skill again is more reliable than resists,resists are capped at 80%,no matter how high you go..thats still a distinct possibility of being mezzed or feared with a spell,and won't protect you at all from a combat art stun like closed mind. Like i said,advantage bruiser.

Miroh

06-29-2006, 05:04 PM

So with close mind I am guessing you know when to cast it while say...tanking, you sense the stun and mez coming?<div></div>

-UGG-Andy

06-29-2006, 08:20 PM

well,you know when you are going to pull,so you cast it before yes? A good example is the first named alzid in labs..he mezzes/fears/charms as soon as you pull him most of the time,a bruiser can just hit close mind before pull,and be immune to this.Its handy whether you are gonna kill him or want to move him out the way so everyone can run past(which is what we do when we farming relic).I can't pull this guy with my monk,as i get feared/charmed/mezzed too often. Another example is cazels meza,back in t6 i could never tank that guy without a templer,every single time he would stun me,i'd be lucky to taunt him once-the group would wipe often simply because i could'nt taunt him.Again,not a problem for a bruiser,just hit close mind,pull,and burn him down. There are situations where close mind is invaluable all through the game.Its an ideal tool for someone pulling mobs,it stops the mobs stopping you,and its reliable at it.

Shankonia

06-29-2006, 11:46 PM

What about teleport punch? /drool Havne yet to see any mention of it thus far as it's a skill I would love to have.

Gungo

06-29-2006, 11:52 PM

You do know there is a potion that provides stun/stilfe immunity and a fear/snare/root immunity potion. i am still looking for that tsunami potion =/Message Edited by Gungo on 06-29-2006 12:53 PM

Shankonia

06-30-2006, 12:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: You do know there is a potion that provides stun/stilfe immunity and a fear/snare/root immunity potion. i am still looking for that tsunami potion =/ Message Edited by Gungo on 06-29-2006 12:53 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, that 10 sec. one is oh so easy to time. Has a great recast as well. The guild level 50 items are a little better, but that status burns up quick.

-UGG-Andy

06-30-2006, 12:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: You do know there is a potion that provides stun/stilfe immunity and a fear/snare/root immunity potion. i am still looking for that tsunami potion =/ Message Edited by Gungo on 06-29-2006 12:53 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> yeh,i know of them. Guild lvl50 required,and they cost gold and status,and you'd need to pop several at once to get the effect of close mind.So not everyone can access them at all. Anyway,my point regarding close mind was that it makes bruisers great for pulling,or tanking that tricky named that stuns/fears right off the bat.

Gungo

06-30-2006, 12:45 AM

The bruiser one is 30 secs at master 1 and 3 min? recast. Hardly a big difference then a 10 sec 5min? recast. Still the fact remains you can buy that ability. Do i see a similar tsunami type potion at 10 secs and 5 min recast. Nope. Andy there are status and tradeskill version.Message Edited by Gungo on 06-29-2006 01:46 PM

-UGG-Andy

06-30-2006, 01:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: The bruiser one is 30 secs at master 1 and 3 min? recast. Hardly a big difference then a 10 sec 5min? recast. Still the fact remains you can buy that ability. Do i see a similar tsunami type potion at 10 secs and 5 min recast. Nope. Andy there are status and tradeskill version. Message Edited by Gungo on 06-29-2006 01:46 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> thanks for that info gungo,i've never heard of player made potions that can give stun immune,stifle immune,mez immune,and fear immune. Can you tell me the names of those potions?I'd certainly like to order a batch.

Gungo

06-30-2006, 01:38 AM

Freedom of mind is the stun/stilfe immunity potion. Freedom of "can't remeber (action?)" is the fear/root/mezz immunity. Then there is the status ones which are better then the tradeskill version. But for pulling the alzid the tradeskill version will do. the above tradeskill potions only last 10 secs but do the same thing needed that closed mind does at 20 secs for the master 1 version. For example fighting the fearfiend in lyceum i have to cast close mind before the aoe fear goes off to be immune. I have to time it because when i get hit with the fear i can not cast closed mind. Potions work the same way you have to use it before the effect so you need to time it correctly. and yes i do have these potions in my bag close mind is generally only good for 1 aoe with a 20 sec duration and 3min? recast.Message Edited by Gungo on 06-29-2006 02:45 PM

Miroh

06-30-2006, 08:23 AM

<DIV>Well, Bruisers have closed Mind, we have our wards and so with that and Dispell it evens out pretty much if you ask me. </DIV>

-UGG-Andy

06-30-2006, 11:30 AM

<DIV>Thanks for the info Gungo,im off to slap our guild alchemist about.:smileytongue:</DIV>

Gungo

06-30-2006, 03:52 PM

Np andy they should be cheap they are not even a rare combine. Also hit him up for some elixar of clarity. They cost me ~30silver on the broker per vial. i usually carry 40 of them. There is just so many times when i have been oop and they have come in handy. The new more expensive ones are the tactics potions the new alchemy rare. It gives you +4% crit ranged/melee. I keep 2 in my bag but they are never really worth using for the price. Instead go to tenbrous tangle get the 3 quests from the armour an then proceed to aoe the draogs in tenbrous tangle will give you a 15% Dps potion 15% haste potion and 3 defense potion 3 chrages each for about 15 minutes work. The resist potions are not bad either, but i tend to burn through my resist potions. Especially since they stack w my mitgation potion. (so sad they removed mititgation potions that really hurt brawlers down to 5 vials left =/).

Sslarrga

07-04-2006, 12:49 PM

Similar DPS on a raid. OMG I'm laughing my tushy off at that one. Both with all masters. Bruiser with crappier weapons. Roughly 110 DR vs me with roughly 122 DR weapons. Same DPS, Haste, and proc buffs. Bruiser out dps's me by 15-30% every time. Sure I can pull off 1-1.2k DPS with the right buffs. But that's still only enough to land me around 8th or 9th on the DPS charts for our guild if we're pushing DPS. Bruiser will still generally be around 3rd or 4th on the DPS charts with around 1.4-1.6 DPS. That's even considering I have more DPS AA's than he does. 4-4-8 Sta, Wis, Int vs 4-4-8-4 int and 4-4-8-4-8 wis for him. If he kicks in the final ability in the wis line, it's just ridiculous how much more he does. However, that's only once every 5ish mins. So the rest of the time he's ONLY doing 15-30% more DPS. And yeah, last time we did Nizara. Yeah we tried me tanking and him tanking. Yeah the combination of his stoneskin(?) and 1k mitigation buff much much much much better than Tsunami + Spirit like Mountain (half the mitigation, root and 30 seconds draining mana which runs out much faster than hps). If a monk has been tanking long enough for a bruisers mitigation buff to wear off there won't be any mana left to even think of putting Spirit like Mountain back up with it's mana drain. Not to mention I believe Stoneskin refreshes in 2 mins while Tsunami refreshes in 3 mins? Bruisers are fine. It's Monks that are gimped at the moment. From what he's able to do he does what a brawler is supposed to do. Offer slightly better DPS than the mit classes while offering a viable tanking alternative for pretty much all situations. At this point all I can say is, the Devs had better find a better way to balance DPS between bruiser and monk than giving monks more self haste. I'm still waiting to see what happens if they eventually raise the level cap again. Ooooh, I'll be able to self haste 150% instead of 120%. Regards, CroakerMessage Edited by Sslarrga on 07-04-2006 01:53 AM

Gungo

07-06-2006, 11:38 PM

dam rating between 2handers and dual wields are not directly comparable. for instance compare the katar of 4 winds/strifewind claw vs the staff of flapping wind. The dam ratings are comparable but the staff blows the other combo out dps wise. Furthermore that bruiser has a decent dps aa path. The wis line does more dps vs multiple mobs even compared to the int/sta/wis path. considering most raids are multi pulls. try comparing yoru dps to the bruiser dps on a single target raid namd and your numbers will be "similar".

Aeyrh

07-07-2006, 07:38 PM

<DIV> <<writing this after no sleep havin spent all night at my sisters side thru a very difficult labor, so go easy on me>> Monks are a pretty versatile class. We can tank, we can be DPS, we can solo pretty well..... But one inherent problem with playin one of the "flexible" classes is we arent the best at anything most groups NEED or look for anyway (A well timed group feign is always appreciated but i dont think its ever gotten me a group. i've never heard anyone say ok we've got 2 more spots we need a back up healer and someone who can feign us just in case). And no matter whether you agree with that statement or not, most people DO feel that way, every day you lose a shot at this or that group b/c for DPS most people want a scout, to tank a Plate tank...and we're left soloing or building our own group. I wouldnt exactly say monks are "broken" but i think one or two small changes would do us well. The big thing i'd like to see is at least one group buff thats more useful than our tiny haste, or an increase in the percentage of haste. Haste is good but i KNOW i've never gotten a group b/c i bring 19% or whatever haste to the table. Looking at a lotta the other fighter classes (like guardian for example) they seem to me to have a lot of useful group buffs (like hp and defense increases). I know i've always got concentration to spare, wouldnt you like a until canceled say...group avoidance or parry buff? All but 1 of our buffs (2 if you count the single target avoidance buff) are for our self only. Self sufficiency rox but doesnt that just tell you SOE didnt really design us to be group friendly? OR if you dont want a little added "support" action i wouldnt mind a slight increase in DPS. Now when im tryin i almost always out dps all the other fighter classes (cept maybe for zerkers in a multiple mob fight) but even tho i'm geared for DPS scout DPS is well beyond me. And frankly at lvl 70, in offensive with yer highest dmg weps, most of us dont out DPS some of the plate fighters by all that much. OR wouldnt you like to tank about as well as the plate guys? not the same as them, i'd rather take a bigger hit and get hit less often, which of course we do, i just dont think we're avoiding quite as much as we should be. (And plz dont tell me i dont know how to play my class or i should just pick a new class and quit whining, even if it gets worse for us i cant imagine any other class i'd rather be) Im not looking to be better than every other class i just dont want to be overshadowed in virtually every area. I just want to have the same shot at a group as any other class. I dont want my ability to train'n'feign to be the only time im really NEEDED. As for the comment above that FD in a raid isnt a good idea.....do you raid? My group feign has come in extremely handy raiding. With me and the other guild monk we could feasibly save almost half the raid from wiping if the MT group dropped right away or whatever.. Wouldnt really do if yer in the MT group... anyway your group will be very grateful that you salvaged another 10% on their armor. and as for that "monks are not DPS they are tanks" thing....most ppl dont think we can tank either. :smileysad:</DIV> sorry if the size comes out funky...wordpad doesnt seem to cross over well

Aeyrh

07-07-2006, 08:10 PM

im so far behind the thread...id be more embarassed but im an aeyrhed what can i do /shrug i didnt even see pages 2-4 till it was posted. still i spent time on it even if its outdated and not really relevant to the monk vs. bruiser thing...i dont know enuf about bruisers to compare. I'd love that immunity to fear etc buff and i'd love a dps buff but then i like what i've got too. why all this brawler on brawler crime? where is the love? we shouldnt fight each other we should team up and take out the competition.....then argue over who kicked more butt.

IrulanDunedanc

07-07-2006, 09:12 PM

But... but... you can't get one of the coolest looking gis in the game if you don't beat up bruisers! :smileytongue:

Supp

07-11-2006, 03:04 AM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KR wrote: As of right now, with the current endgame content, there is ZERO reason to have a Monk in a guild over a Bruiser. And there is ZERO reason to have a bruiser over either a real tank class, or a real dps class. <HR> When I first started my monk, I picked Monk over Bruiser becuase I wanted Qeynos and was under the impression that bruisers didnt have the fancy martial art graphical fighting displays of monks, but of course I was wrong on that point. Hearing they have better dps and better tanking is an annoyance, but my monk is darn powerful, it's hard to imagine being twinked anymore. Now Im one those barefisted types that "get it". Perhaps you should take off the weapons and switch your AAs to 4-4-8 on STR and INT. Maybe you'll be a happy camper then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And btw, I get the neverending genuflects when I pop off with the group feign. Have you ever seen anyone genuflect a bruiser? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

Supp

07-11-2006, 03:10 AM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shankonia wrote: I spent day one of the Adventure pack angry becasue I couldn't FD/train my way easily through the zone like I could in any other instance in the game. I'm guessing bruiser immunities could help them do this a bit more easily than my monk can, or cannot really do anymore. <HR> I feigned my way through HoF to get my Mark of Awakening Updates. And that was before the nerf to debilitate. Another monk friend of mine did the same. Now, it didnt go flawlessly, but it did get done. It's a matter of procedure and having a good quality level of FD.</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>Message Edited by Supple on 07-10-2006 04:43 PM

Supp

07-11-2006, 03:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote: If you need a tank, either offtank or maintank, get plate. If you need dps, get a real dps class, we cant compete with them. <HR> In a group setting, Ive often found my place as a backup tank both relaxing and conducive to the group staying together until they find another plate tank. Many times I am the tank and seem to have no trouble against any non-epic (except for that pesky vornerous tyrant. What's with that guy anyway?). I prefer to DPS of course, but being able to do either is handy in a pinch. In a raid scenario, that pesky issue of epics ignoring avoidance does keep me out of the MT group, but I have a variety of utilities that only a true feigner can offer. A 10 second reuse on the main feign is very handy for a messy pull (even more so now with the increase of social aggro), and I'll usually have people fighting over me for the group feign (especially now that stripping gear is meaningless). And Tsunami often helps if things awry or we need a 12 second diversion. Oh and dont forget the utility of springing traps and mobs in a raid. As for the DPS issue. Over a sustained raid evening, I'll get 500 dps. On a fight, at least 900. And dont forget that my survivability rating over say a scout or mage is astronomically higher. That's good for fighting the good fight for an extended period, not having to hold back much on my dps, and not to mention savings to the pocketbook.</BLOCKQUOTE> Message Edited by Supple on 07-10-2006 04:46 PM

07-11-2006, 03:58 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Supple wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> As for the DPS issue. Over a sustained raid evening, I'll get 500 dps. On a fight, at least 900. And dont forget that my survivability rating over say a scout or mage is astronomically higher. That's good for fighting the good fight for an extended period, not having to hold back much on my dps, and not to mention saving to the pocketbook.</blockquote><hr></blockquote> /cry I don't know how else to put this. I do not care what you say your supposed dps is. Take your current group makeup in your raid, take your dps numbers. Substitute a real dps class in your spot. Take his numbers and compare. That will wrap things up on the dps talk. As for the tanking? Do the same replace deal with a real tank. That is my arguement. Not Jimbobs DPS in his group, or Maryjanes tanking ability in her group...but the class as a whole, compared to other REAL classes. Brawlers ability to FD is not a must have in raiding, nor is the ability to /disband /runIntoTrapsToPopHiddenMobs /FD. The ONLY thing we have going for us right now is tsunami, which is situational at BEST, and having a plate tank or dps taking a monks spot should be prefered 9.9/10 times. These are not just my opinions, ask anyone from the top 5 raiding guilds in this game. If the dev community does not listen to the top players in this game I don't know who they should listen to. While you are at it talk to them about Ranger DPS, or Wizards. I don't care what the Brawler class turns out to be. A DPS or a Tank. I just want it to be one or the other. As it is now we aren't either for raid level content. The original vision was for a Brawler to be a tank...as was said in early development as shown through the choice of putting a brawler in the Fighter archtype along with Paly, SK, Guardian, anf Berserker....all raid level tanks. So for gods sake fix the avoidance != mitigation problem, and make us tanks. Either that..or forget the notion of Brawlers being tanks...and just give us real dps(very simple...increase our combat ability damage, shorten recasts...done. Or dps oriented AA's in next expansion). Actually the Brawler AA's in EoF could fix the class once and for all if done right. And please, any comments and /flames, remember this is for raiding...not group oriented content. Yes of course a monk can tank for groups...scouts and summoners can tank for groups....and guys, stop arguing over Monks vs. Bruisers. My concern is for the Brawler in general. Any comparisons I do between Bruisers and Monks is just to drive home the pointlessness of the Monk even further..seeing how even bruisers are more worthwhile. (plus who are these guys saying bruisers want monks haste buff? are you serious? do you even raid?Message Edited by KR on 07-10-2006 05:11 PM

07-11-2006, 04:34 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Miroh69 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>.....monks are more wanted in a raid. I tank epics fine so you complaining about making us better tanks seems to be a personal issue, you not being able to tank like other monks. Stop crying to change the monk class and learn to play it or re-roll if you can't. Deal with the lack of taunts, deal with the lack of mit, deal with the non dps buff...You see bruisers crying for a haste buff?? Why you crying for their dps buff? </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>OMG. Thanks whoever you are this had me laughing for some time. I barely made it past the sentence with the words Monk, Raid, and Wanted in it. Hmm what else. I can't tank like other monks? No probably not, I don't tank. My tanking services are needed for 1 mob, in 1 fight. My guild has plate tanks for the other 99% of raid content. Do I want to tank more? sure. Do I want a real tank class? yea. If I were leading a raid would I place myself as a MT over a plate tank? lol You tank epics!!! Nice man . Do a copy/paste for me of where I quoted monks "cannot" tank epixx. This was never my arguement. Read closer. If your fighting anything other then a prince, and you have free plate tanks, and your find youself in a MT situation..your guild needs its head examined currently.Hmm what else...learn to play or re-roll. Yea I should re-roll and I would if eq2 was a good enough game to grind 70 levels for a 3rd time. The part about learning to play is harsh though man! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to play a Monk..though from the lack of raid experienced ones who post on these boards its not easy to find a smart one either it seems. I am not going to comment on how knowedgable I am in terms of eq2 game mechanics and the brawler class, and how confused you sound, though...as that would go into the realm of a direct insult. ALso, I do not see bruisers crying for a haste buff..thats just a dumb statement. I also don't want a dps buff though it is "something". And why would you want to "deal" with your lack of taunts and mitigation? If you do not see the problem with your Monk class, or the Brawler class in general, great..be ignorent and stop posting things which are false and be content with what you have. For the rest of us who know what the problem is...sit back and let your class hopefully get fixed.Message Edited by KR on 07-10-2006 05:43 PM

DarkerApprenti

07-11-2006, 07:40 PM

Any chance we can let this topic die?<div></div>

Supp

07-11-2006, 07:43 PM

<DIV>It's hard for me to argue with some of what you said KR. I guess I like Jacks of all Trades. Im not currently, but I was in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on Antonia Bayle, and they were not brawler happy people. They did require at least one in every raid for popping traps. And our brawlers did sport impressive numbers in raids. Further, when we werent raiding, they were all too happy to get brawlers for grouping purposes, and the better equipped we were, the happier everyone was. Such is the nature of the Jacks I suppose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You see Im also a Fury, therefore again a Jack. When Im not raiding, I like having such versatility. For example, the monk (not the bruiser) is the best harvester in the game (instant off and on invis and 10 sec FD). Now I realize you're talking about raiding purposes, but you have to consider these other factors when youre boosting the ability of class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it truly is just an extreme youre interested in, I would suggest a berserker or a ranger. The beserker is an excellent tank but still pretty good dmg potential. And I dont need to discuss rangers. Rerolling may seem like a pain, but I did it to resolve my unhappiness with a warden, who eventually became a fury (wow what a difference that was <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), but Im still extremely happier with my monk.</DIV>

pootski

07-11-2006, 08:26 PM

KR, you have obviously rolled the wrong character. Try an Assassin or a Guardian. A monk is just not what you are good at.I am not even a mid level geared monk. I have spec'd myself for dps and tanking. On Lab raids, the only classes that out DPS me CONSISTANTLY are the pet classes and an assassin when he is really trying. I always have a pally in my group, so I can constanly all out dps. If I DO draw agro, I fd, and then get right back in the fight. The conj/nec gets agro, he revives and starts running back. If it is a very long fight and and we are short of good dps and we run out of power, I keep right on dpsing, Not a whole lot less than when using power with CA's. As far as I am concerned, monk is the best all around class there is in eq2, just like the beastlord was in eq1. And I 2 box with a number of high level healer types and melee types. Try 2 boxing the entire SoS claymore quest with a guardian and a healer. Got a year?<div></div>

DarkMirrax

07-11-2006, 08:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KR wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> .....monks are more wanted in a raid. I tank epics fine so you complaining about making us better tanks seems to be a personal issue, you not being able to tank like other monks. Stop crying to change the monk class and learn to play it or re-roll if you can't. Deal with the lack of taunts, deal with the lack of mit, deal with the non dps buff...You see bruisers crying for a haste buff?? Why you crying for their dps buff? </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> OMG. Thanks whoever you are this had me laughing for some time. I barely made it past the sentence with the words Monk, Raid, and Wanted in it. Hmm what else. I can't tank like other monks? No probably not, I don't tank. My tanking services are needed for 1 mob, in 1 fight. My guild has plate tanks for the other 99% of raid content. Do I want to tank more? sure. Do I want a real tank class? yea. If I were leading a raid would I place myself as a MT over a plate tank? You tank epics!!! Nice man . /We can do it but why bother when a guardian can get it done eaiser and better , we make great off tanks and with intercept we can smack on out mit buff and hardened skin (bruiser) and intercept a blow whilst still dpsing ' a monk and myself is taken on all our guild raids (haste and dps buff given to dps does help) so if you arnt wanted your guild leader or raid leader needs to be checking his strats mate Do a copy/paste for me of where I quoted monks "cannot" tank epixx. This was never my arguement. Read closer. If your fighting anything other then a prince, and you have free plate tanks, and your find youself in a MT situation..your guild needs its head examined currently. Hmm what else...learn to play or re-roll. Yea I should re-roll and I would if eq2 was a good enough game to grind 70 levels for a 3rd time. The part about learning to play is harsh though man! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to play a Monk..though from the lack of raid experienced ones who post on these boards its not easy to find a smart one either it seems. I am not going to comment on how knowedgable I am in terms of eq2 game mechanics and the brawler class, and how confused you sound, though...as that would go into the realm of a direct insult. / If EQ2 isnt a good enough game why do you play it if you dont mind me asking ? ive rolled god knows how many toons and its great fun gives you a nice distraction from playing 1/2 toons constantly. Also, I do not see bruisers crying for a haste buff..thats just a dumb statement. I also don't want a dps buff though it is "something". And why would you want to "deal" with your lack of taunts and mitigation? If you do not see the problem with your Monk class, or the Brawler class in general, great..be ignorent and stop posting things which are false and be content with what you have. For the rest of us who know what the problem is...sit back and let your class hopefully get fixed. /As a brusier i would love for a haste buff but what brusiers are crying for is Mitigation , plain and simple . we are tanks .. we need mit to even the ball game , with a brusier using hardened skin and his mit buff we can nearly get on par with a guard/zerk for 30 seconds before it runs out and we die lol .. the main fix needed for both brawler class is to get rid of the Agility AA line as its crap anyway and change it to a mitgation AA Line .. the question everyone should be asking is a guardian can get close to our avoidance but we cant get close to there mitigation ...... there is the real issue. edited to make it easier to read mate no disrespect intended <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Message Edited by DarkMirrax on 07-11-2006 05:58 PM

Supp

07-11-2006, 09:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pootski wrote: If I DO draw agro, I fd, and then get right back in the fight. <HR> I cant recommend feigning if you take aggro in a raid. At that moment, aggro is off kilter. You'll prolly just get some mages killed. What I'll do is turn off autoattack, turn on tsunami, switching into defensive, and suck it up until the mt gets it back. That's the punishment someone must endure for taking aggro, but at least we have a decent chance of living through it.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Esar

07-14-2006, 06:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KR wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> .....monks are more wanted in a raid. I tank epics fine so you complaining about making us better tanks seems to be a personal issue, you not being able to tank like other monks. Stop crying to change the monk class and learn to play it or re-roll if you can't. Deal with the lack of taunts, deal with the lack of mit, deal with the non dps buff...You see bruisers crying for a haste buff?? Why you crying for their dps buff? </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> OMG. Thanks whoever you are this had me laughing for some time. I barely made it past the sentence with the words Monk, Raid, and Wanted in it. Hmm what else. I can't tank like other monks? No probably not, I don't tank. My tanking services are needed for 1 mob, in 1 fight. My guild has plate tanks for the other 99% of raid content. Do I want to tank more? sure. Do I want a real tank class? yea. If I were leading a raid would I place myself as a MT over a plate tank? lol You tank epics!!! Nice man . Do a copy/paste for me of where I quoted monks "cannot" tank epixx. This was never my arguement. Read closer. If your fighting anything other then a prince, and you have free plate tanks, and your find youself in a MT situation..your guild needs its head examined currently. Hmm what else...learn to play or re-roll. Yea I should re-roll and I would if eq2 was a good enough game to grind 70 levels for a 3rd time. The part about learning to play is harsh though man! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to play a Monk..though from the lack of raid experienced ones who post on these boards its not easy to find a smart one either it seems. I am not going to comment on how knowedgable I am in terms of eq2 game mechanics and the brawler class, and how confused you sound, though...as that would go into the realm of a direct insult. ALso, I do not see bruisers crying for a haste buff..thats just a dumb statement. I also don't want a dps buff though it is "something". And why would you want to "deal" with your lack of taunts and mitigation? If you do not see the problem with your Monk class, or the Brawler class in general, great..be ignorent and stop posting things which are false and be content with what you have. For the rest of us who know what the problem is...sit back and let your class hopefully get fixed. Message Edited by KR on 07-10-2006 05:43 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> whine whine whine whine... cry cry cry. Why does everyone whine about everything in the game? Just learn to deal with it. I dont care who's better. Just play your class and stop whining. If you have a problem with it then go play another class.