Future...

[selch]

<DIV><EM>Dark clouds shroud everything...</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Considering rats starting to leave ship one by one to join vermin of Freeport just being able to tank better in very same archetype, I can presee one thing:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for DPS lovers but we are not scouts, so door on the other way... Monks are so-called supposed to be defensive, is base avoidance (that you admitted not to be working intended) makes it defensive Moorgard? Seriously, having offensive tools and defensive tools at same time on <STRONG><EM>your</EM></STRONG> class  only leads me to that...  And your posts about avoidance is not intended what you want it to be... Seems you don't even want to move finger about that too... If you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing don't want your mitigation tanks find content trivial, make special avoidance rules to brawlers then, double roll the dice on brawlers, one for casual avoidance, one for brawler avoidance.. But make that tanking viable...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fear? Is that control ability? 7.0 seconds a mob does not even move out of CA distance... Is that "control" to train other mobs you donated with social aggro with random direction picked? Is that consolation price for Stuns taken from your RNG based players?  Oh yes, next post will be "omg noob I tank", yeah, we all tank... But since here not leaving those to chance.. Take away stuns too.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I can hope mythical "silent majority" and mythical argument of "all players are raiding" and "all brawlers having 55% mitigation solo with their fabled equipment" does not turn you into another SWG adventure... If this is what you think, this is your crappy ideas of itemisation making mountains between tiers.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:52 AM</span>

[Kair]

I hope your wrong but are you wanting monks to be taunt bots and just stand there and do nothing but hold aggro ? Do you really hate the idea of fighters do any kind of damage so badly that you want to force us all into your happy world of just standing there and spamming taunts after taunts?

[eyes007]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM>Dark clouds shroud everything...</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Considering rats starting to leave ship one by one to join vermin of Freeport just being able to tank better in very same archetype, I can presee one thing:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for DPS lovers but we are not scouts, so door on the other way... Monks are so-called supposed to be defensive, is base avoidance (that you admitted not to be working intended) makes it defensive Moorgard? Seriously, having offensive tools and defensive tools at same time on <STRONG><EM>your</EM></STRONG> class  only leads me to that...  And your posts about avoidance is not intended what you want it to be... Seems you don't even want to move finger about that too... If you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing don't want your mitigation tanks find content trivial, make special avoidance rules to brawlers then.. But make that tanking viable...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fear? Is that control ability? 7.0 seconds a mob does not even move out of CA distance... Is that "control" to train other mobs you donated with social aggro with random direction picked? Is that consolation price for Stuns taken from your RNG based players?  Oh yes, next post will be "omg noob I tank", yeah, we all tank... But since here not leaving those to chance.. Take away stuns too.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I can hope mythical "silent majority" and mythical argument of "all players are raiding" and "all players having 3500 mitigation solo with their equipment" does not turn you into another SWG adventure...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>06-14-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Personally I think you're being overly gloomy about being a monk and past and future nerfs but then your post sounds....odd, like it was translated or something. If I get you right, you're expecting people to jump the monk ship because we're not being fixed or adjusted the way we're "meant" to be or no plans have been revealed to suggest this? I really think you're making this is a mountain over a moundhill, conjurors and necros got hit hard, yet they seem to be taking it rather well (ok maybe not necros so much but even then they are more positive than I expected them to be).</DIV> <DIV>I may have missed your point but I chose a monk because the lore is good, the class is in my opinion better than any other (despite whether we get nerfed or not) and I like the look and feel. If that doesn't sway you to stay positive I don't know what else will <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by eyes007 on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 PM</span>

[Code2501]

<P>Whilst I dont necisarily agree with the mood of the op, I have recently come to some realisations.</P> <P>I have started playing a  brigand recently to find out what the class is like, for kicks, got it up to t3. Here is some of what I have found out.</P> <P>Brigands get some nice agro control, both hate loss and hate gain. With AA's down  the STA line they get taunts, guardian style taunt procs, and some impressive defensive bonuses. when combined with medium armor and defensive/offensive stances you have a melee class that can actually tank some. With minor taunts and t2 dps throw in several debuffs for hate gain and I can strip mobs from guardians fairly easily if I chose to. Heck even if FD rocks your socks you can choose to spend 24AA to get the rogues 100% FD.</P> <P>Now I'm not saying rogues tank better than brawlers (cause i dont think they do, its within spitting distance though)... but my point is, if you rolled a brawler for a melee dps with some tanking ability and utility then you should have rolled a rogue. Seriously, try it out. If your always MA or off tank and seldom MT then you should try out the rogue class and leave brawlers for those that want to primarily tank.</P>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kairel wrote:<BR>I hope your wrong but are you wanting monks to be taunt bots and just stand there and do nothing but hold aggro ? Do you really hate the idea of fighters do any kind of damage so badly that you want to force us all into your happy world of just standing there and spamming taunts after taunts?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, I meant people who never tanks and picking monks just to DPS in their groups / raids whatever. Every fighter has different style of hate control, we keep hate by our DPS, but we are not scouts to make superior DPS, so if you don't tank and go for DPS only to your guilds pathetic raids, then you should reroll another class as pure melee dps.</P> <P> </P>

[Cirth_Beer]

relax a bit selch, you seem quite angry right now ^_^

[nobunaga_x]

I am a monk and hate tanking.   I serve my purpose on raids.  Your gloom will not ruin my day.

[Darthor]

Rogues can't wear Gi's. <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[zabor]

yeah, i agree with selcuk. We are tanks, not dps.Unfortunately, we cant tank as good as plate tanks, nor dps good as real dps classes.

[Mala-Shea]

<P>Well..here's my two cents. I don't know what has happened other than the reduced chance for crit down the int line, but since LU24 even in a 50% dps buffed raid group I am barely breaking 700 dps going all out. I am currently spec'd str448, sta 448 and int 4481. I have respe'd 3 times now to find max dps going down different lines, to no avail. Doesnt matter with weapons or without, using aa line. Can a 4% difference in crits make that much of a difference? Call me crazy, but in the same group not a week ago I was having no problem hitting a k and better. 100% dps buffed and agro was mine. It almost makes me think they ninja nerfed something. So now our dps sucks again. </P> <P>Tell you what, wanna real lesson in humility? Try and swallow your pride while you watch a plate wearing well-played zerker crack 2k dps, take agro and tank it just as well as the gaurd. FFS...2 parses a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing fury beat me. We are tanks huh? Group tanks maybe...raid tanks.....hahahaha! Forget that crap. I have pretty much the best leather armor in the game atm...12k + hp raid buffed. 2 shots...dead. Sometimes one....yippeee! It's becoming embarrassing actually. I don't even try anymore. Respec'd into tank mode...2.2 shots and dead. Yay...very useful. </P> <P>I'm sorry all, but I'm with the op on this one. </P> <P> </P>

[Despak]

Only time we are not as good at tanking as plate is in the majority of raids. Rest of the time we are just as good.

[wazzaratio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Despak wrote:<BR>Only time we are not as good at tanking as plate is in the majority of raids. Rest of the time we are just as good.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats because you didnt notice the wizzard is tanking half the time!</P> <P>We are not as good as plate tanks, also not in groups. On single target mobs i can hold agro most of the fight, but i can be sure my wizard friend takes agro at some point. On groups, just forget holding agro. This is with adept3 single taunt, master 1 group taunt and hate proc at master1.</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM>Dark clouds shroud everything...</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Considering rats starting to leave ship one by one to join vermin of Freeport just being able to tank better in very same archetype, I can presee one thing:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for DPS lovers but we are not scouts, so door on the other way... Monks are so-called supposed to be defensive, is base avoidance (that you admitted not to be working intended) makes it defensive Moorgard? Seriously, having offensive tools and defensive tools at same time on <STRONG><EM>your</EM></STRONG> class  only leads me to that...  And your posts about avoidance is not intended what you want it to be... Seems you don't even want to move finger about that too... If you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing don't want your mitigation tanks find content trivial, make special avoidance rules to brawlers then, double roll the dice on brawlers, one for casual avoidance, one for brawler avoidance.. But make that tanking viable...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fear? Is that control ability? 7.0 seconds a mob does not even move out of CA distance... Is that "control" to train other mobs you donated with social aggro with random direction picked? Is that consolation price for Stuns taken from your RNG based players?  Oh yes, next post will be "omg noob I tank", yeah, we all tank... But since here not leaving those to chance.. Take away stuns too.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I can hope mythical "silent majority" and mythical argument of "all players are raiding" and "all brawlers having 55% mitigation solo with their fabled equipment" does not turn you into another SWG adventure... If this is what you think, this is your crappy ideas of itemisation making mountains between tiers.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>06-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:52 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nothing wrong in joining the darkside matey ... a few monks i know betrayed to brusiers aswell .. to be honest I never expected so many monks to change but as you put it yourself the freeport vermin tank better and as we ARE tanks theres nothing wrong with people going to improve there tanking .. its still surprises me how many ppl comlain about our dps i mean OMG we are THE best solo class , we tank very feking well , we got some nice abiltys , cool animations , can wear GI's and are overall a great class yet people seem to think we are assassins .. WE AINT WE ARE TANKS and if an unhappy monk wants to tank better then changing to brusier is the only way to do it , our MIT buff and lack of haste are the only 2 differences between the classes ... if people want to change its there choice dont be downheartened carry on loving your monk but if you have doubts ... theres always the darkside :smileywink:

[-UGG-Andy]

<P>Well,bruisers tank better and dps better in my experiance..</P> <P>Im normally grouped with a guildie bruiser in raids,buffed the same he normally beats me on dps,for me to compete with his DPS in his balanced stance,i had to spec to the str line and go into offensive stance and cap my haste..see what my point is here?</P> <P>To compete i with our bruiser brothers,i HAD to take str line,and go offensive..hes in his balanced stance,has his choice of weapons,and he never had to blow all those points into unarmed.</P> <P>Tsunami is unreliable now,High hit CA go right through it..</P> <P>Ward is still good.</P> <P>Dragonbreath is a mediocre AOE dot. /yawn.</P> <P>Group FD is good for your group..don't really help the monk at all.</P> <P>Self Invis is practically useless..so many see invis mobs,its power drain,and the fact that invis totems are so much cheaper and longer duration..why would you use Wind walk?to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] past one mob?might aswell just walk past and fd.Seriously,i never use this skill.</P> <P>The skills bruisers get are much better for tanking imo,such as fear/stun immune,mit buff..plus there dps is better than ours when they tank cos its from mostly combat arts..our dps goes right down in def stance cos we are relying on haste-plus if you took the str line you lose a lot of tanking ability to try and compete DPS wise.</P> <P>Anyway,its all just my opinion there..but i know a lot of ppl share it.</P> <P> </P>

[Archai]

I was under the impression that str line for monks was teh garbageness compared to 4,4,8 in wiz, int and sta lines when it comes to dps<div></div>

[Despak]

wazzaratio please don't tell me how well I can tank. I am called to tank for 90% of the groups I join. Including HoF, Den, Nest, PoA and in all of them I do as well as any tin can.That includes Sothis and the Palace Adjutants.Learn to play your class a bit better and you'll be able to keep aggro too.Only time I was having problems was with full raid equipped assassin and wizard who admitted to be going all out from the start for fun.

[DarkerApprenti]

I parse on par with the bruiser in my guild. He beats me a lot when he's using a higher damage weapon than me and in a tank (he off tanks) setup. But, when I'm in the same group I am close to him or beat him. But I'd say all-in-all we're both [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good at what we do. He's a superb player and I'm a good player as well. I make the parse list. Group FD saves the raid on occasions when there is no revive in zone option or when you're too far in to want to run back through mobs that have respawned, or put a monk in the group that does the pulling...bad pull..group FD FTW. Invis isn't useless if in the right zone or situation. They have a mitigation buff big deal. Tsunami and self magic ward still help out tremendously on a lot of pulls. I pull a lot in raids now and all-in-all the guild is happy with the results. Yes a CA will still go through at times but...with WIS line and STA and INT (picked the max health option for more HP) I can still take two or three hits (plenty of time to self heal then FD).Monks are still viable. This game isn't all about DPS. If you want to just DPS please role a TRUE DPS class. We are not a DPS class never have been. We are a jack of all trades, master of none. We have a lot of breadth but lack some depth...I'm fine with that. When it comes time to grinding levels, I can solo, I can group, I can off tank, I can HEAL OTHERS (bruisers can't), I can go invis to scout..if I'm discovered I can FD, I can pull aggro from MT that is about to die, I can do a lot of things. I love the monk.Peace.<div></div>

[wazzaratio]

<DIV>Dont put words in my mouth Despak, i never said we couldnt tank. Where you tanked and didnt tank has nothing to do with us not holding agro as well as a guardian (the only reference i have)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think you can hold agro as well as my guardian friend, i am willing to ask my wizard friend to go for a test in poa. But then again, you can just say he nukes more then he does with the guardian...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is, they have more taunts then us and their hate stance procs on hits, not when they his as ours do. So yes, they will hold better agro, especially on groups.</DIV>

[Sslarrga]

<P>Well currently, given the same buffs, bruisers out DPS monks and bruiser out Tank monks.</P> <P>With worse weapons than me and both with all masters.  Our bruiser generally does 20-30% more DPS on raids.  And when needed also tanks those same epics noticably better.</P> <P>Other than the fact that I like being a monk.  I'm really not seeing much point in the class.</P> <P>Tsunami?  Yah it's good.  But against a properly debuffed epic named.  The bruiser CA that allows them to aborb 3 hits is far more useful.</P> <P>Meh, whatever.  I'll wait to see if anything gets fixed or addressed when the expansion comes out.</P> <P>I'd go on but I think people are getting sick of my ranting.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Before I got to try a 70 Bruiser it was mostly theory I was going on.  But having played both a 70 Bruiser and a 70 Monk?  No comment.  Other than I'm only playing the monk because I like the idea of a monk.  Not because they do more dps.  Not because they tank better.  And most certainly not because they solo better.</P> <P>Regards,</P> <P>Croaker</P>

[GymRat]

<P>I was going to stay silent on this because opinions are like.......well you know.</P> <P>Our avoidance was good...it got nerfed</P> <P>Our stuns were good...they got nerfed</P> <P>Our Tsunami was good.......it got nerfed</P> <P>Our Mit just plain sucks a big one.</P> <P> </P> <P>We did get 1 crappy fear...key word is crappy.</P> <P>I dont have the time or patience to lvl up another class or I would have abandoned the monk months ago. Its a cool class for mystique and look but really in the end its pretty lame. Its great for exploring because you can FD. Its cool for the grp FD but so what. You cant tank  for a raid as well as any plate class, anyone who says different...BS. Claim your uber, claim you do it all the time, whatever. The fact is do the math and it just dont add up.</P> <P>Equip a plate class in their version of the same leg/fabled gear you would have and they out tank you period. Same thing in any grp where the mobs are even with or higher than you, now if you are able to assemble that perfect healing/buff grp to support you then your decent but of course your sacrficing DPS in the grp to support your heals/buffs.</P> <P>Back in April of 05 after reaching lvl 50 and enduring the nerfs and stuff I quit for 4.5 mos. The big revamp came and I came back to try again. I hit 60 and was starting to get bored with my luke warm class but AA's came along and spaked some new interest but alas more nerfs. The new expasnion has come out and I'm mildy intrigued again but monks are deserting to Bruisers left and right...most for good cause I am learning.</P> <P> Sony better rethink our class pretty soon or there will be only Bruisers and a few die hard monks holding on for nostalgia. If something doesnt change soon I see another EQ2 vacation coming on. Got to be some cool new games coming out soon.</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway thats my opinion, like I said we all have one and mine smells like most of them do I'm sure. Happy gaming.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ashac</P> <P>70 Monk Mistmoore.</P>

[Despak]

I don't dispute that Guardians have more taunting at their disposal, but I am saying that we have enough providing we work hard to use it.And you know what? I prefer it that way, I'd rather work hard and enjoy myself than bore myself to tears playing some auto taunting tin can.As for raiding, I'll leave you guys to complain over that as I couldn't give a toss about raiding. The classes are (supposed to be) designed around the group environment after all.

[scalzo]

A monk can tank any heroic set up in the game. I have done all instances tanking. All Monks that dont raid should not have any problems here. Now the Monk really needs some work when it comes to raid tanking. It is clearly about mitigation in raids ( how much mitigation can you get wearing leather)? Epic mobs ignore your advoidance and hit right through it. How can a mob triple hit you with 80% above avoidance? WOW does are some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice dice SOE. It was made this way so Guardains, Zerkers, and Knights have a role. If avoidance worked on epic targets then Monks and Brusiers would be main tanks in a raid and then you would have all the plate wearing tanks upset. SoE needs to find the spot for brawlers for all the rambling going on it is clearly not fixed. If you want us to be fighters well give us a level playing field with the plate wearers, if you want us to be DPS then move us to a scout class and increase our DPS. This issue will never go away until SoE does something about it. If you hate being a brawler now then re-role. I love my monk. I will stick with it. You know how SoE works if you dont like it, wait a few months things will change. People that wanna betray to Brusier can, but you are still not on par with plate wearing tanks period. And things will change down the road on further LU's so dont shoot yourself in the foot. You can only betray once. DarkMirrax I wish you would go away. I read the Brusier forums and you get blasted in there also. You are all over Gaige like white on rice let the man breath. This is the Monk forums and you are not a Monk, so feel free to post your Brusier remarks on Brusier forums.

[Rokujou]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sslarrga wrote:<BR> <P>Well currently, given the same buffs, bruisers out DPS monks and bruiser out Tank monks.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is the problem, and this is what needs to be adressed.

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> scalzo wrote:<BR> A monk can tank any heroic set up in the game. I have done all instances tanking. <FONT color=#ffff00>All Monks that dont raid should not have any problems here.</FONT>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But there IS the problem and there is mountains between tiers of equipment.  I should not get raid equipment filled with 1.5x mitigation to actively tank heroics and heroics as much as act smaller versions of epics..   You can imagine like this... As much as Fabled is not enough for a brawler to tank effectively in raids, Legendary is not enough for a brawler to effectively tank heroics.  You would see hell a lot of difference if you just take your fabled off yourself and try to tank heroics with legendaries that did not drop from raid zones.</P> <P>Someone you know was having 55% mitigation as solo for example. 34% with non-raid drop legendaries... Can you honestly tell this does not make difference on heroics?  Ofcourse that "vocal" person will say it is no problem.  Can you honestly tell 70% avoidance you avoid 70% of hits generally at total sum against heroics of same con?  Heroics of 3 arrows are Epicx1's and act like it on forgetting avoidance and this is especially at T7 zones, but you already know that...</P> <P>This is not about items, but if you balance stuff to items people "might" get , that's where it gets wrong...</P> <P>Mitigation is KING, why? why should it be?  If there is a term called "avoidance" tanking , it should be tanking via avoidance rolls, not reducing the chance to none, just like it does not happen on mitigation, it should not happen on avoidance, no matter how many arrows heroics has... </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>06-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:46 AM</span>

[GymRat]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> scalzo wrote:<BR> A monk can tank any heroic set up in the game. I have done all instances tanking. <FONT color=#ffff00>All Monks that dont raid should not have any problems here.</FONT>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But there IS the problem and there is mountains between tiers of equipment.  I should not get raid equipment filled with 1.5x mitigation to actively tank heroics and heroics as much as act smaller versions of epics..   You can imagine like this... As much as Fabled is not enough for a brawler to tank effectively in raids, Legendary is not enough for a brawler to effectively tank heroics.  You would see hell a lot of difference if you just take your fabled off yourself and try to tank heroics with legendaries that did not drop from raid zones.</P> <P>Someone you know was having 55% mitigation as solo for example. 34% with non-raid drop legendaries... Can you honestly tell this does not make difference on heroics?  Ofcourse that "vocal" person will say it is no problem.  Can you honestly tell 70% avoidance you avoid 70% of hits generally at total sum against heroics of same con?  Heroics of 3 arrows are Epicx1's and act like it on forgetting avoidance and this is especially at T7 zones, but you already know that...</P> <P>This is not about items, but if you balance stuff to items people "might" get , that's where it gets wrong...</P> <P>Mitigation is KING, why? why should it be? <STRONG><FONT color=#ff33cc> If there is a term called "avoidance" tanking , it should be tanking via avoidance rolls</FONT></STRONG>, not reducing the chance to none, just like it does not happen on mitigation, it should not happen on avoidance, no matter how many arrows heroics has... </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>06-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:46 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is the way it was when the game went live, we were probably over powered a bit but rather than fix the avoidance issue they waved the broad nerf stick and changed the whole thing up........we have been screwed ever since. Frankly when I chose the monk class way back in 04 it was because of the idea of avoidance and the idea of wearing no or very little armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I would be happy in cloth if we had avoidance the way it used to be, maybe cloth fist wraps that add stat/resist bonuses but no damage bonuses, the damage was based off of open and closed hand strikes that get better as your level goes up. A true martial artist not this half [Removed for Content] Warrior/Rogue cross.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead were lumped into the plate class mit script with inferior mit and avoidance that doesnt work as avoidance but as more mit, still leaving us seriously lacking. I'm not going to start with the "other class envy rants" because I dont want my rant to be about that but about our problems instead. Give us something, anything to either bring up our raid tank viability or our DPS ability so we are more useful rather than "settled for" when no plate classes are available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ashac</DIV> <DIV>70 Monk</DIV> <DIV>Mistmoore<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by GymRat on <SPAN class=date_text>06-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:51 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by GymRat on <span class=date_text>06-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> scalzo wrote:<BR> You can only betray once.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You can betray as much as you want.<BR>

[scalzo]

<DIV>Ah ok I thought you could only betray once. I didn't know you can go back. So your old city will take you back? If so that is awsome.</DIV>