Guardians

[jeffdo]

So, was grouped with a Guardian last night, he was level 53 and a couple of levels below my monk and wanted to tank.I figured this was a good idea and let him do it, he did exceptionally well but....I inspected him and noticed his mit was 4k and his avoidance was 52 percent.This kind of confused me because in defensive my avoidance is only about 62 percent and heh my mit doesn't break 2k.Is it common for a plate tank to have high avoidance like that?<div></div>

[selch]

<P>Yup.</P> <P> </P>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV>Yes, this is common.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact, with certain AA lines, Warriors can get their avoidance as high as mine at 70, with approximately 2.5x the mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The one difference here is that our avoidance works on attacks from behind, while theirs does not.  But then, if you tank is consistently letting MoBs stand behind him, you should probably find another tank.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Morrolan V on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:08 PM</span>

[Sslarrga]

<DIV>Yup that's correct.  And it's one of the reasons certain Guardians feel that monks are much better than them...  /sarcasm...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV>Croaker</DIV>

[EasternKing]

<DIV>In fact, with certain AA lines, Warriors can get their avoidance as high as mine at 70, with approximately 2.5x the mitigation. <HR> </DIV> <DIV>im sorry but that is not possible,   max avoid for a plate tank is about 70% and that is not easy to achive, on the other hand .... mitigation cap is fairly  easy </DIV> <DIV>brawlers can be sat between 80% - 85% avoidence and between 65% to 70% mitigation with no short term buffs ....so all in all it is actually quite fair </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and for the ones that are going to argue with me .... capped defense / parry / block ....and around 380 to 400  agility ill be sat about 67% to 68% avoidence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so for the above statment ...warriors can get the avoid as high as a raid geared for tanking brawler with MT group buffers.........INCORRECT</DIV> <DIV>plate tanks are sat 2.5x the mitigation of a raiding MT geared brawler ......brawlers who are geared for it can be sat at 5k miti easy with no short term buffs used ..with short term buffs from themselves that can reach about 7.5k add a furys miti buff and they will be sat at just under 10k mitigation so again the statment is INCORRECT</DIV> <DIV>i have yet to see a guard or any other plate tank sat at 12k miti and with buffs hit 25k miti .....which is what you need to be sitting at 2.5x the miti of a raiding brawler.</DIV>

[DanaDark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <DIV>In fact, with certain AA lines, Warriors can get their avoidance as high as mine at 70, with approximately 2.5x the mitigation. <HR> </DIV> <DIV>im sorry but that is not possible,   max avoid for a plate tank is about 70% and that is not easy to achive, on the other hand .... mitigation cap is fairly  easy</DIV> <DIV>brawlers can be sat between 80% - 85% avoidence and between 65% to 70% mitigation with no short term buffs ....so all in all it is actually quite fair</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and for the ones that are going to argue with me .... capped defense / parry / block ....and around 380 to 400  agility ill be sat about 67% to 68% avoidence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so for the above statment ...warriors can get the avoid as high as a raid geared for tanking brawler with MT group buffers.........INCORRECT</DIV> <DIV>plate tanks are sat 2.5x the mitigation of a raiding MT geared brawler ......brawlers who are geared for it can be sat at 5k miti easy with no short term buffs used ..with short term buffs from themselves that can reach about 7.5k add a furys miti buff and they will be sat at just under 10k mitigation so again the statment is INCORRECT</DIV> <DIV>i have yet to see a guard or any other plate tank sat at 12k miti and with buffs hit 25k miti .....which is what you need to be sitting at 2.5x the miti of a raiding brawler.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I play a guardian and sit at roughly 53% avoidance unbuffed.</P> <P>As well, your entire reply depends on a lvl 70 completely fable geared brawler with certain classes in the group.</P> <P>Overall... I think most people would prefer the guardian tank for a raid.</P> <P>iono... I could be silly.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im sorry but that is not possible,   max avoid for a plate tank is about 70% and that is not easy to achive, on the other hand .... mitigation cap is fairly  easy</DIV> <DIV>brawlers can be sat between 80% - 85% avoidence and between 65% to 70% mitigation with no short term buffs ....so all in all it is actually quite fair</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and for the ones that are going to argue with me .... capped defense / parry / block ....and around 380 to 400  agility ill be sat about 67% to 68% avoidence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so for the above statment ...warriors can get the avoid as high as a raid geared for tanking brawler with MT group buffers.........INCORRECT</DIV> <DIV>plate tanks are sat 2.5x the mitigation of a raiding MT geared brawler ......brawlers who are geared for it can be sat at 5k miti easy with no short term buffs used ..with short term buffs from themselves that can reach about 7.5k add a furys miti buff and they will be sat at just under 10k mitigation so again the statment is INCORRECT</DIV> <DIV>i have yet to see a guard or any other plate tank sat at 12k miti and with buffs hit 25k miti .....which is what you need to be sitting at 2.5x the miti of a raiding brawler. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>EK stop talking out of your behind.</P> <P>A great geared <EM>bruiser</EM> not brawler can maybe hit 4800mit for 3 minutes using their hp for mit buff, but there is no way at all ever that a monk is going to hit "5k easy with no short term buffs".  I'm fully fabled with mit jewelry and I sit at 3490ish self no short term buffs and I'm telling you I'm not just going to pull 1600 mit out of my behind.</P> <P>As for getting to 85% avoid... I doubt it.  At 430 defense, 415 deflection and 414 parry I'm at 83.4% - and it isn't easy to find that other 5 deflection and other 6 parry either.</P> <P>Also for a guardian to get 70% avoidance they don't have to be stunned and rooted - however monks do have to be stunned and rooted to get above 4500 mit and certainly to break 6k mit - so it isn't "fair" at all.  It isn't even close.  That is without considering how much more effective mitigation is over avoidance.</P> <P>So the first thing you need to do is realize that bruisers and monks get different buffs, especially in regards to mitigation.  Then you need to stop posting until you've educated yourself enough to make one post that is clear and concise and not a jumbled piece of garbage combining two classes and comparing them to one with a bunch of made up numbers.</P> <P>Maybe then someone will take you seriously.  I doubt it, but hey I'm just trying to help.<BR></P>

[DarkerApprenti]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div>In fact, with certain AA lines, Warriors can get their avoidance as high as mine at 70, with approximately 2.5x the mitigation. <hr> </div> <div>im sorry but that is not possible,   max avoid for a plate tank is about 70% and that is not easy to achive, on the other hand .... mitigation cap is fairly  easy </div> <div>brawlers can be sat between 80% - 85% avoidence and between 65% to 70% mitigation with no short term buffs ....so all in all it is actually quite fair </div> <div> </div> <div>and for the ones that are going to argue with me .... capped defense / parry / block ....and around 380 to 400  agility ill be sat about 67% to 68% avoidence.</div> <div> </div> <div>so for the above statment ...warriors can get the avoid as high as a raid geared for tanking brawler with MT group buffers.........INCORRECT</div> <div>plate tanks are sat 2.5x the mitigation of a raiding MT geared brawler ......<font color="#ffff00">brawlers who are geared for it can be sat at 5k miti easy with no short term buffs used ..with short term buffs from themselves that can reach about 7.5k add a furys miti buff and they will be sat at just under 10k mitigation</font> so again the statment is INCORRECT</div> <div>i have yet to see a guard or any other plate tank sat at 12k miti and with buffs hit 25k miti .....which is what you need to be sitting at 2.5x the miti of a raiding brawler.</div><hr></blockquote>What on earth are you smoking my good man...don't Bogart that stuff...pass to your left.</div>

[EasternKing]

<DIV> I'm fully fabled with mit jewelry and I sit at 3490ish <HR> </DIV> <DIV>so that figure for your mitigation gaige ...that self buffed ? or is that including all the miti buffs u get when raid tanking ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>As for getting to 85% avoid... I doubt it.  At 430 defense, 415 deflection and 414 parry I'm at 83.4% - and it isn't easy to find that other 5 deflection and other 6 parry either. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>read what i said brawlers hit between 80-85 and what do you get gaige just shy of 84 % avoidence ? so my post is incorrect is it ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Also for a guardian to get 70% avoidance they don't have to be stunned and rooted - however monks do have to be stunned and rooted to get above 4500 mit and certainly to break 6k mit - so it isn't "fair" at all.  It isn't even close.  That is without considering how much more effective mitigation is over avoidance <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>again gaige from 2 class's and a potion you can pick up 1397 mitigation...i find it very very hard to belive that you as a raid tank brawler sit at 2093 miti in your best tanking gear ...if how ever gaige you are sitting at 3490 miti on your own ...that + 1397 gives you a whopping total of 3490 +1397 = 4887 mitigation..just under 5k miti which i think you will find i quoted </DIV> <DIV>when a fury casts urchin ....that will jump a good 2k ....so thats a brawler sat at 7m miti and not using any of his own buffs ......do we need to carry on ? or am i still talking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ?</DIV>

[Code2501]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <DIV> I'm fully fabled with mit jewelry and I sit at 3490ish <HR> </DIV> <DIV>so that figure for your mitigation gaige ...that self buffed ? or is that including all the miti buffs u get when raid tanking ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>As for getting to 85% avoid... I doubt it.  At 430 defense, 415 deflection and 414 parry I'm at 83.4% - and it isn't easy to find that other 5 deflection and other 6 parry either. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>read what i said brawlers hit between 80-85 and what do you get gaige just shy of 84 % avoidence ? so my post is incorrect is it ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Also for a guardian to get 70% avoidance they don't have to be stunned and rooted - however monks do have to be stunned and rooted to get above 4500 mit and certainly to break 6k mit - so it isn't "fair" at all.  It isn't even close.  That is without considering how much more effective mitigation is over avoidance <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>again gaige from 2 class's and a potion you can pick up 1397 mitigation...i find it very very hard to belive that you as a raid tank brawler sit at 2093 miti in your best tanking gear ...if how ever gaige you are sitting at 3490 miti on your own ...that + 1397 gives you a whopping total of 3490 +1397 = 4887 mitigation..just under 5k miti which i think you will find i quoted </DIV> <DIV>when a fury casts urchin ....that will jump a good 2k ....so thats a brawler sat at 7m miti and not using any of his own buffs ......<FONT color=#ff9900>do we need to carry on ? or am i still talking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ?</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'll take door number two!:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Any justification based on buffs from external classes is lame cause the same buffs, or other more appropriate buffs, can be applied to any tank. And before you complain about Mit caps, while you may go over a mit cap, it sure helps to have the extra mit when you get mit debuffed, and 80% mit vs level 70 aint close to 80% mit vs level 75. Oh and on a raid.... levels being the same, 80% mit is 80% damage mitigated... 80% avoidance is ~ 60% attacks avoided.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <DIV>again gaige from 2 class's and a potion you can pick up 1397 mitigation...i find it very very hard to belive that you as a raid tank brawler sit at 2093 miti in your best tanking gear ...if how ever gaige you are sitting at 3490 miti on your own ...that + 1397 gives you a whopping total of 3490 +1397 = 4887 mitigation..just under 5k miti which i think you will find i quoted</DIV> <DIV>when a fury casts urchin ....that will jump a good 2k ....so thats a brawler sat at 7m miti and not using any of his own buffs ......do we need to carry on ? or am i still talking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You said 5k self no short term and 10k with a fury, not 7k.<BR>

[Code2501]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>In fact, with certain AA lines, Warriors can get their avoidance as high as mine at 70, with approximately 2.5x the mitigation.</FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>im sorry but that is not possible,   max avoid for a plate tank is about 70% and that is not easy to achive, on the other hand .... mitigation cap is fairly  easy </DIV> <DIV>brawlers can be sat between 80% - 85% avoidence and between 65% to 70% mitigation with no short term buffs ....so all in all it is actually quite fair </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and for the ones that are going to argue with me .... capped defense / parry / block ....and around 380 to 400  agility ill be sat about 67% to 68% avoidence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so for the above statment ...<FONT color=#ffff00>warriors can get the avoid as high as a raid geared for tanking brawler with MT group buffers</FONT>.........INCORRECT</DIV> <DIV>plate tanks are sat 2.5x the mitigation of a raiding MT geared brawler ......brawlers who are geared for it can be sat at 5k miti easy with no short term buffs used ..with short term buffs from themselves that can reach about 7.5k add a furys miti buff and they will be sat at just under 10k mitigation so again the statment is INCORRECT</DIV> <DIV>i have yet to see a guard or any other plate tank sat at 12k miti and with buffs hit 25k miti .....which is what you need to be sitting at 2.5x the miti of a raiding brawler.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>lol, I actually re-read that to see if you had any kind of real point... nope.</P> <P>As an example, the origional quote (orange) you are tryng to prove wrong and the miss-representation of that quote you made up (yellow) are two entirely different points. No where did the poster you quoted state he was comparing a warrior to a raid buffed brawler. he simply said "with certain AA lines, Warriors can get their avoidance as high as mine at 70, with approximately 2.5x the mitigation."</P> <P>Given you have no idea what the posters avoidance and mitigation are, nor those of the warrioirs he is comparing them to means you are infact talking out your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], or in forum terms "trolling". But the funny part is you actually quoted him and then went on to miss-quote him several lines below that... that takes a certain kind of smarts.</P>

[EasternKing]

<P>the op is talking about being grouped ....2 brawlers that raid then stated yeah its true ....gurads can get twice the mitgation of brawlers and the same avoidence</P> <P>my point is that a raid geared brawler can hit avoid NO warrior can reach ...and can get within 1500 mitigation of a buffed warrior...if that is to hard to work out from m post then carry on calling me a troll.</P>

[tuli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P>my point is that a raid geared brawler can hit avoid NO warrior can reach ...and can get within 1500 mitigation of a buffed warrior...if that is to hard to work out from m post then carry on calling me a troll.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And our point NO raid gear brawlers can reach Mitigation of warriors, 1500 mitigation means 20% CONSTANT damage reduction, so whats your point?</P> <P>I mean you think it is "overpowered" brawlers getting higher avoidance than warriors? And as a guardian you know mitigation is king on tanking not avoidance.</P> <P> </P> <P>And op in question does not even mention raid. It is a group. In a group 52% avoidance + 4K mitigation is the king. Not 62% avoidance + 2K. Mitigation ALWAYS WORKS, avoidance is just chance.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by tulien on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:10 AM</span>

[EasternKing]

<DIV> <P>And our point NO raid gear brawlers can reach Mitigation of warriors, 1500 mitigation means 20% CONSTANT damage reduction, so whats your point?</P> <P>I mean you think it is "overpowered" brawlers getting higher avoidance than warriors? And as a guardian you know mitigation is king on tanking not avoidance.</P> <P> </P> <P>And op in question does not even mention raid. It is a group. In a group 52% avoidance + 4K mitigation is the king. Not 62% avoidance + 2K. Mitigation ALWAYS WORKS, avoidance is just chance. <HR> <P></P> <P>jesus what a load of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], ..... brawlers who raid replied in this post stating yes guards can get the same avoid and 2.5 times the mitigation of brawlers ?</P> <P>hahaha so i say im sorry i dont agree ...what we talking about here a  level 70 brawler in the  nuddy and a 70 raid equipped guard ?</P> <P>and FYI 1500 is about 15% damage absorbtion ...not 20% </P> <P>and raiding is the same thing as grouping ......i mentioned 2 class   buffing .....1 is a healer the other is a crusader ....or do you uber brawlers not group anymore ?</P> <P>let me make it crystal clear for you seen as you ALL cannot read what im saying ...lets take gaige .......gaige in his own words is sat at 3490 miti ...so we add 1 healer that will add 640 -730 ish dependent upon the healers miti buff .....we add a T6 potion and thats 240miti .....so with just 1 healer and a potion gaige has gained nearly 1000 mitigation ..add a Crusader into it and well there is another 370-425 mitigation ....so with just 1 brawler 1 healer and 1 crusader gaige is not sat just shy of 5k miti </P> <P>so 1 monk and 2 others and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hes got just under 5k miti and i would imagine about 75% avoid easy </P> <P>yeah a WELL geared guard will have more....do you know how many guards there are per server that run about with more than 5k miti on there own ? a handful </P> <P>for the rest of the guard pop there are dependent upon the  gear they wear sitting 3.4 k to 4.2k </P> <P>so an average brawler is sat at about 2.4k  to 2.6k ..im still faling to see where this 2.5 mitigation is coming from .....you do realise that most guard dont have over 5k mitigation on there own ? ...or you al the same look at the MTS for raid guilds and use that as your bench mark for a class ?</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 AM</span>

[Sslarrga]

<DIV>What's your point EasternKing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Replace the Monk with a Guardian in the exact same situation and the guardian STILL has almost twice as much mitigation.  Gauge in FULL RARE fabled with that hit what almost 5k?  Stick joe-schmoe guardian with NON-FABLED relatively easy to attain gear around 5500 mitigation to start and they have close 7k?  How about we take joe-schmoe monk in relatively easy to get non-fabled with around 2600 mitigation.  So now they have close to 4k.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yet that same joe-schmoe guardian can hit 60+% avoidance while the joe-schmoe monk will be hitting 70+% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets see with group buffs that average joe guardian has 42% more mitigation while the monk has 10% more avoidance in a group.  WOOOOO, that's tanking balance all right, considering Mitigation is the more important of the two to begin with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>VS a level 70 solo non-named mob 1500 mitigation gives 21.4% damage mitigated.  I'd say that's closer to the 20% number than the 15% you are spewing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted against a level 74 Epic X4 named mob, it's a lot less we don't know HOW much less since we don't know the exact formula that SoE uses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However I do know that avoidance vs that same level 74 Epic X4 named mob is a whole arseload less useful than mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everytime you make a post EasternKing I have to question your claims that you are actually are in a raiding guild and actually raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and how about we add in the fact that the Warrior STARTER AA...for 1 freaking AA point heals more than a monks Heal at master1?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV>Croaker</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sslarrga on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:42 AM</span>

[EasternKing]

<P>hahah you monks make me laugh</P> <P>my point is ....if you take a well geared plate tank  ...and put him in a group  and then compare it to a poorly geared brawler ...yes there is a bigg diff </P> <P>my question still stands ...how many guards do you guys think there are per server with 5k standing miti or higher ?</P> <P>croaker  <A href="http://www.eq2forsaken.com/" target=_blank>www.eq2forsaken.com</A>  thats my guilds website ....and my front page,  keep insulting me as you wish ..i raid i run my raid guild we have fun and kill [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] </P> <P>but i refuse to be told by you self proffesed ubers leet  players i have no clue what im talking about ....you remeber my posts about brawler dps ? and i was told that was all to do with double attack ......well guess what my guild monk is still hammering out 1200-1400dps every single raid we do ......even with the change to double attack</P> <P>my point is this ...if you are going to take an extreme ....ie raid equipped and geared guards and use them as a bench mark  of what to judge against for poorly equipped monks them in gonner post and tell you MY opinion, </P> <P>well my opinion there is maybe 10-15  guards per server who are running about with 5k+ miti  ....and thats being genorus........so that is no basis for omg guards get 2.5 the miti we get and the same avoidence ......cos we both know croaker thats complete and utter BS</P> <P>and as for out AA line heal is better ....master 1 monk heal is 29%  - 35% castable in combat .....AA line is 25% and not castable in combat .....i know which one id prefer......</P> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>05-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:43 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 PM</span>

[superdave]

hey ek go back to the guardian boards where u belong with all the rest of the cry babies. you are insane if u think in anyway we can get close to the mitigation you all have. Why dont u stop and think what your saying before you write it. Why dont u post your monks dps on raids at 1400dps. i wanna see the proof. If your monk is doing that much dps what are your casters doing drinking coffee?

[jeffdo]

Sorry, heh. Yeah my original post was because I thought monks were far superior at avoidance and plate tanks were tops at mit, but this was apparently a bit off. I understand it is class balance though and we do better dps than guardians. (We do right?) Thanks for all the posts!<div></div>

[Bewts]

Just wanted to throw in that you all realize that having 80% avoidance versus 60% avoidance is really only a difference of 1 hit out of every 5?  Meaning a brawler with 80% avoidance dodges 4 out of every 5 hits (read gets hit once every 5 swings) versus a guardian with 60% avoidance who dodges 3 out of every 5 hits (read gets hit twice every 5 swings). The thing is, avoidance is entirely random and its not normalized.  Essentially its like flipping a penny.  Every flip of the penny is a 1 in 2 chance the penny lands on tails, even if you flip the penny 99 times and all 99 times it lands on heads, the next flip Still has a 1 in 2 chance of landing on tails. Mitigation on the other hand, each hit if you have 80% mitigation, you still take 20% +/- a certain percent of the unmitigated value of the auto attack damage. What this all means is that avoidance tanks are not nearly as reliable as plate tanks.  We should all know this by now.  If you look at it from a raiding point of view, monks need more healing to counter the randomness of incoming damage and unreliablity of damage spikes due to avoidaince not being normalized.  When you need 7 or somethimes 8 healers JUST to keep a guardian with 5400+ self buffed mit alive on a raid, the chances of success on that same raid with a brawler tanking diminish greatly as you have to sacrifice DPS slots in a 24 person raid and bring in more healers just to keep the brawler alive. Overall brawlers who MT end game content need to do more with less and only the very best guilds can accomodate this.  99% of all guilds cannot accomplish this.  Please show me multiple parses consisting of seperate end game encounters of a brawler tanking the named if you want to argue this point. Brawlers essentially are great solo classes, awesome tanking classes for grouping and fall very short on tanking named raid content of the appropriate tier.  There are always exceptions to these generalized statements as I'm sure Gaige would attest to.  He is in that 1% of guilds who CAN accomplish the 'Feat' of using brawlers to tank end game content.  As just having a great equipped brawler will not alone win many of the T7 encounters, the players around the brawler as well have to be exceptional to make up the difference needed to keep a brawler alive AND beat the encounter. Of course, end game brawlers being of the fighter archetype are split.  One group feels they are a DPS class, typical of what EQ1 was like.  The other group feels that being a fighter means they should be able to tank the same content as a guardian but do it a different way which just so happens to be how the fighter archetype was advertised originally.  The community is split and unless there is a major adjustment to allow players to decide what way best fits their playstyle by sacrificing some skills to become better tanks, brawlers will always be a bit short on tanking endgame named raid mobs. You have been served. <div></div>

[Code2501]

<STRIKE></STRIKE><STRIKE></STRIKE><STRIKE></STRIKE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P>hahah you <STRIKE>monks</STRIKE><FONT color=#ffff00> big leet raid leader </FONT>make me laugh</P> <P>my point is ....if you take a well geared <STRIKE>plate tank</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>Brawler</FONT> ...and put him in a group  and then compare it to a poorly geared <STRIKE>brawler</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>Guardian</FONT>...yes there is a bigg diff </P> <P>my question <STRIKE>still stands</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>is </FONT>...how many <STRIKE>guards</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>monks </FONT>do you guys think there are per server with 5k standing miti or higher ?</P> <P>keep insulting <STRIKE>me</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>my intelligence</FONT> as you wish ..i <STRIKE>raid i run my raid guild we have fun and kill [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>I </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>have been playing since beta, and my play style has encompased solo, tradeskills, grouping and raiding end game. I know what an average brawlers stats are and I know what an average guardians stats are. I also know that many of the issues guardians have had (self mitigation factored into damage interception as one example) are being addressed by the devs, however brawlers have seen nothing but nerfs for a long time.</FONT></P> <P>but i refuse to be told by you self proffesed ubers leet  <STRIKE>players</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>raid leader, </FONT><STRIKE>i have no clue what im talking about ....you remeber my posts about brawler dps ? and i was told that was all to do with double attack ......well guess what my guild monk is still hammering out 1200-1400dps every single raid we do ......even with the change to double attack</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>you know all about how uber brawlers are cause you played one back when they were just DPS and still think there just DPS regardles what the developers themselves claim. I don't care what you think brawlers are or are not, you don't play one and you aren't a dev. What I do care about is you denying the obvious truths for one reason or another, be it fear of nerfs or fear your garunteed raid MT slot might be in some way compromised.</FONT></P> <P>my point is this ...if you are going to take an extreme ....ie raid equipped and geared <STRIKE>guards</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>m</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>onks </FONT>and use them as a bench mark  of what to judge against for poorly equipped <STRIKE>monks</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>brawlers</FONT> them in gonner post and tell you <STRIKE>MY opinion,</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>your ignorant.</FONT></P> <P>well my <STRIKE>opinion</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>point</FONT> there is  <FONT color=#ffff00>also</FONT> maybe <STRIKE>10-15  guards</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>4-8 monks</FONT> per server who are running about with <STRIKE>5k+</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>3.5k+</FONT> miti  ....and thats being genorus........so that is no basis for omg guards <STRIKE>get 2.5 the miti we get and the same avoidence</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>are no where near as superior as you think, there only very superior not super super superior</FONT>......cos we both know <FONT color=#ffff00>ek</FONT> thats complete and utter BS</P> <P>and as for out AA line heal <STRIKE>is better</STRIKE> ....master 1 monk heal is 29%  - 35% castable in combat <FONT color=#ffff00>and about 10plat if you ever get a chance to find it on the broker</FONT>.....AA line is 25% and not castable in combat <FONT color=#ffff00>, free and every single warrior gets it </FONT>.....i know which one <STRIKE>id prefer</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ffff00>is more common</FONT>......</P> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>05-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:43 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>05-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00>Message Edited by Code2501 sometime there after</FONT> <P>Message Edited by Code2501 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:03 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Code2501 on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:16 PM</span>

[scalzo]

Fix avoidance and let a brawler have shield then what will happen?

[BtilTheMage]

<DIV>"hahah you monks make me laugh"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>One will come in a generation</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>A logicless Troll</FONT></DIV>

[tass]

<div></div>that aint nothing. the other day I got into a grp as main tank and was looking for one of the grp members with the best avoidence to share off him to raise mine. I looked at the templer, the scout, even the mages and all had about 15 to 20% avoidence except for this wizard. He had 54 or 56% in avoidence on him lol. needless to say my avoidence shot up by about 4 using off of him.<div></div><p>Message Edited by holystones on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[Code2501]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> holystones wrote:<BR> that aint nothing. the other day I got into a grp as main tank and was looking for one of the grp members with the best avoidence to share off him to raise mine. I looked at the templer, the scout, even the mages and all had about 15 to 20% avoidence except for this wizard. He had 54 or 56% in avoidence on him lol. needless to say my avoidence shot up by about 4 using off of him.<BR> <P>Message Edited by holystones on <SPAN class=date_text>05-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:39 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If your a brawler then I think you need to re-read whatever ability it is that you think lets you "share" avoidance off someone else.</P> <P>Monks do have an ability to provide someone else in their group with upto ~50% chance to recheck their failed avoidance checks using the monks avoidance... perhaps you are confused how this works?</P>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>hahah you monks make me laugh</p> <p>my point is ....if you take a well geared plate tank  ...and put him in a group  and then compare it to a poorly geared brawler ...yes there is a bigg diff </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Take a full fabled brawler and poorly equipped guardian and there is no big difference.</font> </p> <p>my question still stands ...how many guards do you guys think there are per server with 5k standing miti or higher ? </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">More than brawlers with 3k mitigation.</font> </p> <p>croaker  <a href="http://www.eq2forsaken.com/" target="_blank">www.eq2forsaken.com</a>  thats my guilds website ....and my front page,  keep insulting me as you wish ..i raid i run my raid guild we have fun and kill [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] </p> <p>but i refuse to be told by you self proffesed ubers leet  players i have no clue what im talking about ....you remeber my posts about brawler dps ? and i was told that was all to do with double attack ......well guess what my guild monk is still hammering out 1200-1400dps every single raid we do ......even with the change to double attack </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">But your guild monk cannot tank then. Also your guild monk cannot hit that DPS without a lot of buffs from others in raid. With those buffs a guardian trying to do damage instead of tanking will hit 1k DPS.</font> </p> <p>my point is this ...if you are going to take an extreme ....ie raid equipped and geared guards and use them as a bench mark  of what to judge against for poorly equipped monks them in gonner post and tell you MY opinion, </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">No, you dont have a point, you never have and it seems you never will.</font> </p> <hr></blockquote><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 AM</span>

[EasternKing]

<P>how about your a punk ...will be a punk and cant be anything other than a punk</P> <P>a brawler who wants to tank , and not be a dps machine can hit over 5k miti ..before any buffs are appiled and as well was having 5k miti will be sat at 83-84% avoidence, and  a brawler that dosent want to tank can be in a dps scout group be parsing 1200-1400 dps ...i have nothing to prove ....i couldnt care less....a brawler asked a question...in my honest opinion he was given the wrong info as an answer....brawlers who want to raid tank can hit 70% absorbsiton and over 83% avoidence </P> <P>a warrior can hit over 83% miti and 68-69% avoidence ....thats pretty much even stevens on avoid vrs miti...unfortunaley mobs get massive bonus's to hit that negates the inherent bonus that avoidence based tanks get overt miti based tanks....and wether you  can deal with that or not has nothing to do with what i post as a guard.</P> <P>i really have no worries at all...i rolled a guard because the monk i played for 8months of this game wasnt doing wht i wanted it to do...i rolled a guard ..i spent 4 months of "my time" building my raid guild ....and getting MY raid guild where it is today ...you can shout and scream and call me all the names under the sun...i really really couldnt give a flying [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] what you think of me .....you can say what you like ...i have my fun ...i get what i pay for from this game.....however i really do get [Removed for Content] when i see brawlers who do raid ..start saying yeah yeah guards can hit our avoid and have 2.5xs our miti </P> <P>well as i posted elsewhere ....a miti geared brawler will be sat at 5k miti (70% absorbtion) add his /hers own buffs + a furys urchin and that brawler will be hitting 9.6k mitgation for 30secs ...i as a warrior have at my best  only ever hit 10.6K mitigation with my buffs and a furys urchin......so cry me a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing river brawlers cant get anywhere near a warriors miti.....wannna know 1 class that cant get anywhere near a warriors or a brawlers miti ...take a look at a crusader...cos they get 0 miti buffs.</P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>how about your a punk ...will be a punk and cant be anything other than a punk </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">How nice from someone who has to see dictionary 13 times to know what that sentence means.</font> </p> <p>a brawler who wants to tank , and not be a dps machine can hit over 5k miti ..before any buffs are appiled and as well was having 5k miti will be sat at 83-84% avoidence, and  a brawler that dosent want to tank can be in a dps scout group be parsing 1200-1400 dps ...i have nothing to prove ....i couldnt care less....a brawler asked a question...in my honest opinion he was given the wrong info as an answer....brawlers who want to raid tank can hit 70% absorbsiton and over 83% avoidence </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">And guardian will hit 10k mitigation and 80% avoidance. Also you know that avoidance doens't work so 80% avoidance is just as 'good' against epics as 0% avoidance is.</font> </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">So still no point from you.</font> </p> <hr></blockquote><div></div>

[1Ralte]

Easter.... troll somewhere else, if the original poster wanted to ask a guardian his opinion there is ANOTHER FORUM for him to post on, so for now on troll else were until you know what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you are talking about.

[Asheng]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>how about your a punk ...will be a punk and cant be anything other than a punk</p> <p>a brawler who wants to tank , and not be a dps machine can hit over 5k miti ..before any buffs are appiled and as well was having 5k miti will be sat at 83-84% avoidence, and  a brawler that dosent want to tank can be in a dps scout group be parsing 1200-1400 dps ...i have nothing to prove ....i couldnt care less....a brawler asked a question...in my honest opinion he was given the wrong info as an answer....brawlers who want to raid tank can hit 70% absorbsiton and over 83% avoidence<font color="#ffff00"> So what your saying is that fabled equipped brawlers and guardians that choose either tank role or dps role, with aa's armor, and weapons, are well balanced. And all the arguing you do is pointless. That you feel end game guardians are balanced now, as are monks, and need no changes. </font> </p> <p>a warrior can hit over 83% miti and 68-69% avoidence ....thats pretty much even stevens on avoid vrs miti...unfortunaley mobs get massive bonus's to hit that negates the inherent bonus that avoidence based tanks get overt miti based tanks....and wether you  can deal with that or not has nothing to do with what i post as a guard. <font color="#ffff00">Again you are backing up what I just said above. Your saying guardians are a balanced class, they need no improvements, because you say monks need no improvements, and monk/guardians are on a equal playing ground.</font></p> <p>i really have no worries at all...i rolled a guard because the monk i played for 8months of this game wasnt doing wht i wanted it to do...i rolled a guard ..i spent 4 months of "my time" building my raid guild ....and getting MY raid guild where it is today ...you can shout and scream and call me all the names under the sun...i really really couldnt give a flying [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] what you think of me .....you can say what you like ...i have my fun ...i get what i pay for from this game.....however i really do get [Removed for Content] when i see brawlers who do raid ..start saying yeah yeah guards can hit our avoid and have 2.5xs our miti. </p> <p>well as i posted elsewhere ....a miti geared brawler will be sat at 5k miti (70% absorbtion) add his /hers own buffs + a furys urchin and that brawler will be hitting 9.6k mitgation for 30secs ...i as a warrior have at my best  only ever hit 10.6K mitigation with my buffs and a furys urchin......so cry me a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing river brawlers cant get anywhere near a warriors miti.....wannna know 1 class that cant get anywhere near a warriors or a brawlers miti ...take a look at a crusader...cos they get 0 miti buffs.</p><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class="date_text">05-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">The thing you seem to forget a lot of the time is the player percentage of brawlers that equip themselves to have 5k mitigation is going to be very very small. It requires full high quality t7 raid fabled, with very specific drops. Your average player, and even many raiding brawlers WILL NOT HAVE THIS. Mitgation will always be better then avoidance, because it is steady, there is no randomness too it,  There is no "chance" involved. Also as mob levels go up, the avoidance chance decrease is much more severe then mitigation penalty. I don't understand why you argue here. You don't actually ever make a point, you just spew the same drivel over and over again, almost like your not even sure what your arguing about. You aren't some super important class defining spokesperson that sony learns how to make guardians from.  You just like to try and rile us up, and cause problems on our forums.</font></div>

[shaolen]

Easter, the problem is you are basing your statements off of what the lone monk in your guild can do and thinking the rest of us can do that do.  The gear that Kinz has, the average player does not.  Four pieces of Excarnate and two pieces of Cresent Moon is very impressive, the only non fabled armor is the Hooloh's Hat.  With that kind of gear they are bound to have great stats etc...but a player with that kind of gear is the exception not the rule I assure you.   And lastly shame on you all for only having one monk in your guild, that is blasphemy!

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote: <P>a brawler who wants to tank , and not be a dps machine can hit over 5k miti ..before any buffs are appiled and as well was having 5k miti will be sat at 83-84% avoidence</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No.  A brawler who wants to tank will not hit 5k miti before any buffs are applied. </P> <P>A monk certainly won't.  Not even close.  I'd be amazed to see a monk with 4000 mit unbuffed.</P> <P>A bruiser theoretically could.  I guess.  Take my 3500ish and add 1306 if I was a bruiser and that puts me at 4806 with a single buff up.  Unbuffed...?  No.</P> <P>So please quit talking about something you obviously have no idea about, thanks.<BR></P>

[EasternKing]

<P>gaige stop splitting hairs with me ......yes i mean with a healer buffs and the rest ....me saying no buffs mean's in the context of that statement,  no short term miti buffs and you are more than aware of what i mean.</P> <P>with healer / crusader and potion you will be sat just under 5k ...without using ANY SHORT TERM MITI BUFFS, is that clear enough now ?</P> <P>so we take your 5k miti (rounded up ...in your case i think you are about 113 short) and add a furys urchin ......that will put you at about 7k miti for 30secs ...with NO STUN / NO ROOT / NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS AT ALL........so keep telling me im wrong and i have no idea what im talking about, 7k miti is more than sufficent for 30secs on a mob being pulled to get it de-buffed to hell and back. </P> <P>so again ......cry me a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing river....get over it ...BRAWLERS can hit plate tank miti without using there own miti buffs and get nearly 85% avoidence</P> <P>or do i have to get a screenshot of all the miti buffs from the class's and make a big spreadsheet for you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up brawlers who cannot accept what im saying ?.</P>

[Sedi]

<DIV>Naggash, would you be so kind as to link me the Mit buffs Crusaders get? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You trolled the Crusader post. Leave this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing post alone, you have no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idea what you are talking about and everyone knows it.</DIV>

[RyanTSi]

<DIV>im full fabled, with mit jewelry when i MT i usally sit at 4100 mit. with a perfect raid setup which rarely happens when i MT i can get up to like 4500 mit. and usally about 80% avoid depending on the group, the highest avoid ive MTed with was 81.4% or so. </DIV>

[EasternKing]

<DIV> <DIV>Naggash, would you be so kind as to link me the Mit buffs Crusaders get? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You trolled the Crusader post. Leave this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing post alone, you have no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idea what you are talking about and everyone knows it. <HR> </DIV> <DIV>are you really so dumb ? </DIV> <DIV>we are talking about brawlers mitigation ...and the buffs the get from other class's</DIV> <DIV>you just make yourself look like a clown with..... naggash please link me the miti buffs crusaders get .......READ what i posted you [Removed for Content].......brawlers can get an extra 425 mitigation from a CRUSADER </DIV> <DIV>is that clear enough for you ?</DIV></DIV>

[Bewts]

<blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>how about your a punk ...will be a punk and cant be anything other than a punk</p> <p>a brawler who wants to tank , and not be a dps machine can hit over 5k miti ..before any buffs are appiled and as well was having 5k miti will be sat at 83-84% avoidence, and  a brawler that dosent want to tank can be in a dps scout group be parsing 1200-1400 dps ...i have nothing to prove ....i couldnt care less....a brawler asked a question...in my honest opinion he was given the wrong info as an answer....brawlers who want to raid tank can hit 70% absorbsiton and over 83% avoidence </p> <p>a warrior can hit over 83% miti and 68-69% avoidence ....thats pretty much even stevens on avoid vrs miti...unfortunaley mobs get massive bonus's to hit that negates the inherent bonus that avoidence based tanks get overt miti based tanks....and wether you  can deal with that or not has nothing to do with what i post as a guard.</p> <p>i really have no worries at all...i rolled a guard because the monk i played for 8months of this game wasnt doing wht i wanted it to do...i rolled a guard ..i spent 4 months of "my time" building my raid guild ....and getting MY raid guild where it is today ...you can shout and scream and call me all the names under the sun...i really really couldnt give a flying [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] what you think of me .....you can say what you like ...i have my fun ...i get what i pay for from this game.....however i really do get [Removed for Content] when i see brawlers who do raid ..start saying yeah yeah guards can hit our avoid and have 2.5xs our miti </p> <p>well as i posted elsewhere ....a miti geared brawler will be sat at 5k miti (70% absorbtion) add his /hers own buffs + a furys urchin and that brawler will be hitting 9.6k mitgation for 30secs ...i as a warrior have at my best  only ever hit 10.6K mitigation with my buffs and a furys urchin......so cry me a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing river brawlers cant get anywhere near a warriors miti.....wannna know 1 class that cant get anywhere near a warriors or a brawlers miti ...take a look at a crusader...cos they get 0 miti buffs.</p><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class="date_text">05-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> You sir are an idiot. Yes Brawlers CAN reach 5k mit self buffed but they are rooted, and stunned and it takes 6 seconds once the fight has begun to reach those numbers.  Show me a parse where a fight versus a T7 epic boss mob lasts for 27 seconds.  For those 30 seconds where a brawler is stunned and at their self buffed 5k mit, a brawler does not attack therefore they forefit their hate proc that only works on successfully hitting a mob, their group taunt and all outgoing DPS.  That means your only form of hate generation for those 30 seconds is from our single target taunt and if you wanted to, you could fire off rescue for 4k+ hate before you stun yourself, but lose it for the rest of the fight. Now, once those 30 seconds fade, you are back at 3.5k mit if you are in some of the very best gear self buffed.  So if a fight lasts for say 2 minutes, you have spent 1/4 of it with mitigation similar to a guardian's self buffed.  The last 3/4 of the fight you are way below what a guardian would be and likely dead within the next 15 seconds unless you have 10+ healers on you. They key, in case you are too dense to understand it is that brawlers cannot maintain the same numbers a guardian could raid buffed.  Not even close.  You've already stated the issue that the to hit bonus of epic mobs negates the advantage a brawler has over a plate tank in avoidance.  That is why many brawlers think that tanking epic mobs as a brawler is imbalanced compared to a plate tank.  We cannot maintain the absorbtion numbers a plate tank can, and our avoidance advantage is minimal with to hit bonuses of epic mobs.  I don't want nerfs to guardians as your life is hard enough, many of us don't like the idea you get that self heal AA trait but throwing the dog a bone every once in a while we can deal with.  We just don't appreciate a guardian who played a monk 6+ months ago coming to our forums trying to tell us that those of us who play a monk don't know what we are talking about.  Stick to the cesspool you call your guardian pages and leave the business of monks teaching other monks to thoe ones who still play them today. You don't know what you are talking about, raid leader or not, end game raiding or not.  I challenge you to have your monk tank T7 epic named and get back to us on the challenges you face and you will understand what we are saying.  For the first 30 seconds of a fight, brawlers sit just below other plate classes who tank but after that we are the paper tanks of the raid and a swashy or brigand would be just as good of a choice to tank at that point. That is why brawlers are better suited for soloing or tanking for group encounters.  When it comes to raid, our most useful trait is getting high avoidance, and giving a MT a second avoidance check with our avoidance.  Other than that we can reach respectable DPS numbers, low tier 1, high tier 2 depending in group setup which is about where we should be.  Are we broken?  No, would those of who would like to tank epic content like to have a bone thrown our way?  Yep I know I would.  If that means sacrificing some DPS.  I'll take it.  This game is about playing the way you choose to and as a brawler your choice is solo, heroic tanking or DPS.  There is very little epic tanking we can do.  I was hoping for something of an AA skill to allow brawlers to be able to maintain perhaps 4k to 4.5k mit before short terms but we didn't get that bone thrown to us.<div></div>

[1Ralte]

<P>my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is this =========================================)) big....</P> <P>next time you troll boards have some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing evidence for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s sake. NO ONE gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about what you think. </P>

[EasternKing]

<P>bewts you really are incapable of reading what i typed or are you deleberatly miss reading it ?</P> <P>a brawler with 3500 miti on his own .........NO BUFFS </P> <P>3500 miti  +  a potion (240) = 3740miti</P> <P>3740 miti + a healer miti buff AD3 is 680'ish master 1 is 730'ish ......so thats ......4420 to 4470 miti </P> <P>4420 / 4470 + a crusader miti buff 380'is ad 3 or 425 master 1 =  4800 miti / 4845 miti </P> <P>so thats a brawler sat at 4800 miti / 4845 miti WITHOUT ANY TEMP MITI BUFFS </P> <P>if you add a conj to that would be ...4800 /  4845 + 290'ish to 323 = 5090 - 5113 miti ..granted you wouldnt if raiding probably use a conj and a crusader in the MT group...but i have seen plenty of posts of peeps saying they would though.</P> <P>so even without the conj miti buffs you have a brawler sat just shy of 5k mitigation (see aboves posts) ......with a furys miti buff that brawler if sat at 4800 miti will hit 6760 miti for 30secs ......AND THATS STILL NOT USING ANY OF THERE OWN MITI BUFFS !!!!!</P> <P>is that clear enough for you now ?</P> <P>so as for the peeps saying i have no point ....if you cannot see my point your either dumb or being an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] just to argue with me......im not here trying to get monks nerfed ...someone stated that warriors can get the same avoid as bralwers and 2.5x's the mitigation WELLL JUST AS I ORGINALLY SAID THAT STATMENT IS INCORRECT</P> <P>so keep calling me names and insulting me ...i really dont care ......i do care about people who lie and use falshoods to further there own arguments( and yes im sure someone wil accuse me of falsehoods ...monks doing upto 1400dps )........welll i see it every week ...so does the other 23 peeps on my raids .....other raiding brawlers know im not lying when i state that them numbers are possible ...they would rather cut there own tongues out than be seen to agree with me on a subject that could be used to potentially get the damage output of this class reduced ...so instead of the truth i get insulted ......and im the one whos told to grow up and stop being a troll ?  </P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:54 PM</span>

[BtilTheMage]

<FONT color=#cc0033>Elipses help your argument.</FONT>

[selch]

<P>So back to topic EK, how much a Guardian can get on Avoidance with your superior setup groups?</P> <P> </P>

[EasternKing]

<P>im usually sat at 55-56% avoid on my own, </P> <P>with a standard group ill hit about 62-63% avoid, if i wanted to get it as high as possible ......id (this is the highest ive had mine) get it to about 68 - 69 % avoid</P> <P>guards already cap there defense solo ...and not to far away from the parry cap either once they in Def stance and have the single target group member Avoid check buff cast on a group member...think at ad3 mine adds 12.6 to parry, block is given from shields, so that max 20% .....so i can only really get a bonus from a dirge (+ parry) or by directly buffing my agility...i think when im raiding its usually 380 -400 dependent on what gear i have one (stats vary) and what buffers i have in the MT group.</P> <P>i think even if i capped my agility id only see about 72 to 73% avoidence.(cant remember exactly how many points you need to increase AGI by to get 1% avoid)</P>

[shaolen]

<DIV>Since the monk in your guild can get all these wonderful stats etc... How often do you let him/her tank in raids?   If his/her mitigation and avoidance is so high seems like they would be a natural choice.   And let us not forget those ubber dps numbers, he/she should never lose aggro.   </DIV>

[Bewts]

<blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>bewts you really are incapable of reading what i typed or are you deleberatly miss reading it ?</p> <p>a brawler with 3500 miti on his own .........NO BUFFS </p> <p>3500 miti  +  a potion (240) = 3740miti</p> <p>3740 miti + a healer miti buff AD3 is 680'ish master 1 is 730'ish ......so thats ......4420 to 4470 miti </p> <p>4420 / 4470 + a crusader miti buff 380'is ad 3 or 425 master 1 =  4800 miti / 4845 miti </p> <p>so thats a brawler sat at 4800 miti / 4845 miti WITHOUT ANY TEMP MITI BUFFS </p> <p>if you add a conj to that would be ...4800 /  4845 + 290'ish to 323 = 5090 - 5113 miti ..granted you wouldnt if raiding probably use a conj and a crusader in the MT group...but i have seen plenty of posts of peeps saying they would though.</p> <p>so even without the conj miti buffs you have a brawler sat just shy of 5k mitigation (see aboves posts) ......with a furys miti buff that brawler if sat at 4800 miti will hit 6760 miti for 30secs ......AND THATS STILL NOT USING ANY OF THERE OWN MITI BUFFS !!!!!</p> <p>is that clear enough for you now ?</p> <p>so as for the peeps saying i have no point ....if you cannot see my point your either dumb or being an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] just to argue with me......im not here trying to get monks nerfed ...someone stated that warriors can get the same avoid as bralwers and 2.5x's the mitigation WELLL JUST AS I ORGINALLY SAID THAT STATMENT IS INCORRECT</p> <p>so keep calling me names and insulting me ...i really dont care ......i do care about people who lie and use falshoods to further there own arguments( and yes im sure someone wil accuse me of falsehoods ...monks doing upto 1400dps )........welll i see it every week ...so does the other 23 peeps on my raids .....other raiding brawlers know im not lying when i state that them numbers are possible ...they would rather cut there own tongues out than be seen to agree with me on a subject that could be used to potentially get the damage output of this class reduced ...so instead of the truth i get insulted ......and im the one whos told to grow up and stop being a troll ?  </p><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class="date_text">05-26-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:54 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Brawler 3500 mit prebuff with a ton of T7 gear.  I think my guildie who has a nice collection of T7 gear, but not oustanding sits around 3200? Plate tank 5k mit prebuff and you arent in the best gear available, just well geared.  For a time my guild used an SK who hit 5200 mit self buffed and we had barely touched T7. Thats a difference of 1500 mit.  I'm pretty sure you can do that math. Brawler + mit pot + crusader + 1 priest mit buffs = as you said at best nearly 5k and a little bit higher if you use a conj. Guess what, we just used a potion, a crusader, conjuror and a healer to reach what a well but not great geared plate tank hits Pre everything just mentioned and the tradeoff is... dodging 1 more hit out of every 5 compared to a guardian?  thats 80% brawler vs 60% guardian in case you missed my point. Short terms aside, that means we need 3 support classes and a potion just to reach the self buffed mit of a guardian.  That means a guardian would sit around what... 6700 mit pre short terms.  Post short term from say a fury that means you are at 8600 mit for 30 seconds?  Compared to 6700 for brawlers? Yes brawlers CAN reach over 6k mit, matter of fact WITH that setup and a fury's short terms PLUS our own short terms(2600ish if both are M1) we can be at over 9k mit for 30 seconds albiet we are stunned and rooted and spent 6 seconds casting those 2 spells and forefit all DPS and hate generation minus our single target taunt to achieve it. Last I checked, no epic fights last 30 seconds though, so short term arguements and how high we can get is a pointless arguement.  There is ONE interesting arguement because bruisers CAN get their mit maintained to 6100, or short term 7800 mit which is not all that far off from your guardian short term mit numbers. Bottom line is that monks are not designed to tank epic named content, because we all know if we sent any tank into a fight with a maintained mit of 5100 that drastic healing measures are going to have to be taken to keep the tank alive.  It would be like sending a guardian, level 70 in full cobalt to try to tank vyemm. I also want to ask you, how many times is your uber monk tanking instead of you?  How often do you win those fights if you even let him?  And if you do, I want to see the parses and class listing/group setups of how you do it.  I am truely curious to see how these feats are accomplished. If you are argueing the whole same avoidance as a brawler and 2.5x the mit, you are correct.  It is not true, but we are a long ways off from the numbers a guardian gets and if you use a brawler instead of a paladin in MT group setups, guardians will get to use the brawler avoidance numbers if their own avoidance fails.  Any statement that monks can tank T7 epic named content consistently and effectively requires a drastic gameplan and a lucky roll of the dice, and thats with the best equipped brawlers. There is a reason guardians tank the majority of raid content, they are better at it and matter of fact they are designed to do it.  Monks are not, even the best monks have serious issues to face albiet are irregularly successful at doing it.  Irregularity in raiding with all the variables we face as is makes the more 'consistent' tanks the defacto choice. <div></div>

[Kinless]

   Here we are again with the fact that the sake of argument is drowning out the origional posted question and answers.    By the way, I am Kinz. I have and will tank epic content if needed. I do believe all Naggash did was answer that the first answers numbers were skewed and in that post he was correct, but ... That wouldnt be a fight now would it ?   Short answer: no,  a gaurdian does not have 2.5 times my mitigation when we have comparable buffs. Yes I have more avoidance . No my avoidance does not compare to mitigation on epics and I do everything in my power to raise my mitigation if called upon to tank epic mobs,  Gaige still hase more than I but I am working on getting there as well.   As a final note, I am not leet or uber. I do what I can to help the raid I am in succeed. Will I come here posting everything I can or can not do ? No . Want to ask me in private if something said in reference to me is correct ? Send me a cross server tell or a PM and I will answer your question to the best of my abilities.  I will not be posting screenshots of parses or combat logs or pics of raid group set ups. Too many variables involved.    To some of you, much of this discussion seems to have taken on what I like to call a selective view. Raid and single group settings are different and you cant come back at someone who posts about raid stats saying it aint possible cause you have not seen it in a xp group setting. Learn these differences and how to differentiate between them and you will find some of your anger slowly melt away , maybe . Some folks just rather enjoy being angry I suppose, but if we didnt have angst we wouldnt have a billion dollar medication industry.   Atleast the one thing that always brings a smile to my face are the ones that follow every single one of Naggash's posts with a very Princes Bride response ...... INCONCIEVABLE !!!!!! ...<span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div><p>so again ......cry me a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing river....get over it ...BRAWLERS can hit plate tank miti without using there own miti buffs and get nearly 85% avoidence</p> <hr></blockquote>And? With the same buffs and equal gear, that plate tank has again over double the mitigation and almost 80% avoidance. Also you have trolled the discussions where it has been clearly shown to you that avoidance does not work. In addition to those unavoidable CA's, especially nameds hit far more often than what they should according to avoidance. But you choose to ignore all this so that you can continue trolling. What a jester.<div></div>

[Bewts]

<blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div><p>so again ......cry me a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing river....get over it ...BRAWLERS can hit plate tank miti without using there own miti buffs and get nearly 85% avoidence</p> <hr></blockquote>And? With the same buffs and equal gear, that plate tank has again over double the mitigation and almost 80% avoidance. Also you have trolled the discussions where it has been clearly shown to you that avoidance does not work. In addition to those unavoidable CA's, especially nameds hit far more often than what they should according to avoidance. But you choose to ignore all this so that you can continue trolling. What a jester.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Both misguided responses.  Brawlers CAN reach plate tank mit, but it takes 3 people and a potion do accomplish what a plate tank has just walking around with their own buffs. Plate tanks do NOT have twice the mit of a brawler unless you are comparing a MT on a raid to a brawler in offensive with offensive buffs in a DPS group. Plate tanks do not reach 80% avoidance, most are in the low 60's raid buffed.  Good ones at the sake of mit and other stats can get closer to 70% but they need a full group of people.  Their way to reach high avoidance is like a brawler's way of closing in on a guardian's mit.  They need 3 people and a potion to do it. Bottom line is that if a guardian and a brawler were to switch places in a raid, AND the raid could keep the brawler alive that the guardian in the MT slot would take 30% less damage over the course of the fight than a brawler in the MT slot.  This is the mitigation advantage guardians enjoy over a brawler's less reliable avoidance which is not nearly as normalized as a guardian's mitigation is. <div></div>

[Gorathh]

<div></div>Folks, please tone it down a bit and turn away from personal attacks and more to discussing the topic, remembering to follow the <a target="_blank" href="message?board.id=faq&message.id=25"><font color="#ffff99"><b>Forum Rules of Conduct</b></font></a>.Thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Tamo]

<P>I don't see any point to EKs arguement... it seems like all your talk about getting classes "balanced" doesn't need to exist because they already are balanced.</P> <P>All of this ranting and raving has accomplished nothing.</P> <P> </P> <P>As for whether or not they have this regularly... I have 67-70% avoidance at T7 group buffed with about 3k mit <This is GROUP buffed> The guardian will have about 60-64% avoidance and about 6K mit. IMO, it depends on how your group is set up.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Carna]

<P>I'm not sure why Guardians would be the subject for Monk ire. All they do is tank, and suprisingly enough, they're pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good at it. Their dps is pretty mediocre compared to a Monk, hence they're better tanks.... Berserkers have good mit and good avoidance, and in the right situation pretty good dps too.</P> <P>I don't understand why you'd focus on Guardians and bypass Berserkers.</P> <P>I have little care either way, I only play Scouts. I just find it odd.</P>

[Code2501]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P>im usually sat at 55-56% avoid on my own, </P> <P>with a standard group ill hit about 62-63% avoid, if i wanted to get it as high as possible ......id (this is the highest ive had mine) get it to about 68 - 69 % avoid</P> <P>guards already cap there defense solo ...and not to far away from the parry cap either once they in Def stance and have the single target group member Avoid check buff cast on a group member...think at ad3 mine adds 12.6 to parry, block is given from shields, so that max 20% .....so i can only really get a bonus from a dirge (+ parry) or by directly buffing my agility...i think when im raiding its usually 380 -400 dependent on what gear i have one (stats vary) and what buffers i have in the MT group.</P> <P>i think even if i capped my agility id only see about 72 to 73% avoidence.(cant remember exactly how many points you need to increase AGI by to get 1% avoid)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nagg, you do realise of course if you had a monk using his Tranquil Vision on you in that MT group you would get the equivalent of an extra 10-12% avoidance that does not appear on your persona screen... so effectively a Guardian can MT with about the same avoidance chance as a brawler and higher mitigation... So I would question... do you really know what your talking about Nagg? really?</P> <P>Let me spell it out for you:</P> <P>Take your toon with his, as you said, 68-69%, take off the 'avoid check on other spell' (cause you can't have it up with Tranquil Vision on) and you'd be what, 67%?</P> <P>Now monk puts Tranquil Vision on you.. lets assume Adpt3, 47% chance to use his avoidance (master1 is ~50% iirc).... lets assume he has 70% avoidance due to not being raid buffed and all (personally I hit around 72% with the right buffs and my current gear)...</P> <P>100 attacks - 67% (your avoidance) = 33 hits get through... now you have 47% chance to check with monks avoidance...</P> <P>33 - 47% = 17.5 hits dont get a second check... the other 15.5 roll against the monks avoidance...</P> <P>15.5 - 70% =10.85 hits avoided... 4.65 hits get through... so all up thats</P> <P>17.5 hits not avoided and no secons chance + 4.65 hits failed second chance = 22.15 hit get through / 100 = 77-78% avoidance.</P> <P>If you capped your agillity you suggested you have 72-73%... add 11% from Tranquil Vision and thats 83-84% avoidance.</P> <P>So there you go.. spelled out using the numbers you provided for avoidance of your own character and assuming a conservative 70% avoidance on the monk... you can get 77% avoidance + whatever mitigation as a guardian MT.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you think i'm wrong somewhere here feel free to show me where... otherwise I'm calling shennanigens.</P>

[Kinless]

<div></div>Actually, I posted a question on this earlier.  Tranquil Vision on a raid MT is a monk not in a slot doing all they can for the raid. I have tested, retested and checked this out. With me in MT group, defensive stance, and tranquil vision on MT the MT takes a lot more damage than that person would with that slot going to a person that buffs mitigation ( ie, SK, Paladin, etc ) The extra chance to use my roughly 80% avoidance does not compare to the less damage taken over all with the extra mitigation.  Next time run ACT and look at the healing your raid MT required with you in group fighting the same mobs then do it with a Miti buffer in group . Before any try to say just a few fights wont settle it, I did some extensive parsing during raids on this, and we determined that it was not worth the less damage taken for all hits ( Even though with my Tranquil Vision it gave the MT the ability to use avoidance 47% of the time in a 360 degree manner the same that I do ) . Kinz <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kinless on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 AM</span>

[Code2501]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kinless wrote:<BR> Actually, I posted a question on this earlier.<BR> Tranquil Vision on a raid MT is a monk not in a slot doing all they can for the raid. I have tested, retested and checked this out. With me in MT group, defensive stance, and tranquil vision on MT the MT takes a lot more damage than that person would with that slot going to a person that buffs mitigation ( ie, SK, Paladin, etc ) The extra chance to use my roughly 80% avoidance does not compare to the less damage taken over all with the extra mitigation.<BR> Next time run ACT and look at the healing your raid MT required with you in group fighting the same mobs then do it with a Miti buffer in group . Before any try to say just a few fights wont settle it, I did some extensive parsing during raids on this, and we determined that it was not worth the less damage taken for all hits ( Even though with my Tranquil Vision it gave the MT the ability to use avoidance 47% of the time in a 360 degree manner the same that I do ) .<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Kinz<BR> <P>Message Edited by Kinless on <SPAN class=date_text>05-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which proves what? Mitigation owns Avoidance? </P> <P>If a raid guild chooses not to do this due to better benefit being had from mitigation buffers is merely a testament to the weakness of avoidance as a tanking mechanic. The primary reason for what you stated is that avoidance takes such a heavy hit from the conning system that it quickly becomes far inferior to mitigation... the reason people like nagg continue to argue otherwise (aside from insecurity) is that this gimping of avoidance is conceiled within the conn system and no one can tell what the real avoidance check is vs epic or yellow up, unless you parse several fights.</P> <P>While I won't necsisarily disagree with your point, my point was a guard can nearly (if not actually) match the avoidance of a monk in MT...</P> <P>All things being equal, warrior avoidance / mitigation ratios are not proportionate to brawler mitigation / avoidance ratios, and this imballance becomes further skewed against yellow, orange, red or epic mobs. Thats the fact that people like Nagg refuse to acknowledge, and thats in part from their fear of being nerfed, as is the common sollution that SoE bring to the table.</P>

[Bewts]

Guards do not reach brawler avoidance raid buffed.  Period. Assume: A normalized avoidance (its not) 100 swings on MT from X mob Guard has 64% Avoidance raid buffed Brawler has 80% avoidance with TV on Guardian - 50% chance for making my math simple Guard would theoretically take 36 hits Of those 36 hits, 18 go to the Brawler's TV. Of those 18 hits, only 3.6 get through putting a guardian at 21.6 hits taken Assume: A guardian mitigates 80% damage (they don't versus epics) Base unmitigated auto attack damage of mob X is 10,000 damage Every hit on the guardian is for 2,000 damage (assuming 80% mit value compared to 10k dmg value) 21.6 hits go to the guardian with a monk using TV Thats 43,200 damage that needs to be healed. Assume for arguement's sake the guardian can achieve 85% mitigation with a crusader mit buff (this simulates epic con attack bonus and why we try to go over the cap versus epic mobs) The new damage per hit is 1500 per hit Assume the Crusader puts their version of TV on the guardian Assume the Crusader's avoidance is 58% So of those 36 hits the guardian would take: 18 go to the Crusader's version of TV Of those 18 hits, 10.44 go through So 28.44 hits get to the guardian 28.44 * 1500 = 51,192 damage that needs to be healed using a crusader. I'm not sure why your parses are showing different, I can only attribute it to the randomness of avoidance inherently, raid setups that weren't exactly the same, hence debuffs would be different, critical attacks of the raid mob, etc. IF avoidance was normalized, that is how things would work.  As it is, with the consistentcy of mitigation either system will work fine, especially with a well equipped guardian.  If your guardian lacked mitigation, the crusader is probably a better choice to make up the difference in gear. In case you were wondering, if a monk with 80% avoidance had TV on the guardian, the actual implied avoidance is: 100 Hits on guardian 65% avoidance for guardian 80% avoidance on monk 35 hits taken by guardian 18 go to monk's TV and avoidance 11.8 hits are blocked, 7.2 get to guardian 18 + 7.2 = 25.2 get to guardian Or in those 100 hits, the guardian would avoid 74.8 hits for a 74.8% avoidance.  Which means the TV skill of a monk in theory with a normalized avoidance gives a guardian: 74.8% missed - 65% normally missed = 9.8% avoidance. Of course avoidance is NOT normalized, which is like flipping a penny 100 times.  If it landed on heads 99 times, the next flip still has a 1 in 2 chance of landing on heads, not a 1 in 100 chance. <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<div></div>Bewts, the parses show differently because avoidance does not work like mitigation. What I have seen is that even con heroics hit my monk (70% avoidance) about 30% of the time. But even con named heroics will hit me over 90% of the time. And even con epic nameds will hit me just as often as they will hit a plate tank with lower avoidance. Best explanation what I have seen is that when a mob hits, the ratio of its STR vs. targets AGI affects the chance to hit. And all nameds have high STR. Situation is even worse with epics since I dont think there is an ability cap for encounters so even capping agility will not increase the chance to avoid. But mitigation is not affected by this STR buff. Yes, high STR means more damage, but it will still not negate mitigation since the damage output of a mob is calculated so that the encounter is doable. But in all this means that with nameds, avoidance tanks will be hit almost as often as plate tanks but for a lot more damage. Only encounters where avoidance tanks are propably better, are regular heroic mobs who have no unavoidable CA's. As for the avoidance buff in question, this means that it is worth nothing when fighting epic nameds. You have 47% chance to use the avoidance of the monk, but the system makes sure that the avoidance used is not as high as the number shows but close to 0. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 AM</span>

[shaolen]

Kinz thanks for posting a response.  Its always better to hear it "from the horses mouth" so to speak. 

[EasternKing]

<P>it seems there are serveral brawlers who dont understand how there primary defense works, </P> <P>if you have 80% avoid in your persona window you dont have 80% chance to avoid an attack......overall the 3 checks should amount to what works as an 80% chance</P> <P>for a brawler 80% avoid works out out at roughly this  :</P> <P>Base 50%  360 dgree...will always be checked</P> <P>Deflection 35% 360degree will always be checked</P> <P>Parry 30%  360degree will always be checked</P> <P>so when a mob swings at you ...you get a 50% chance to avoid before any negative modifers are applied.....then if it hits it checks the next one in this case 35% chance before any negative modifiers..... then if that check fails it checks the 3rd check...in this case 30% before any negative modifiers......now if the mob has got a 20% bonus to hit them checks become .....30% / 15% 10% then it lands and you mitigate the damage...whats left you take as damage.</P> <P>Brawlers supposed advantage is that me as a warrior sat at 66% avoid which breaks down as :</P> <P>base 32% ....360 degree always checked</P> <P>block with tower sheild 20% ...90 degree arc frontal only .....any other area no check is made</P> <P>parry 26% ...90 degree frontal arc only .....anyother area no check is made</P> <P>so with the same mob attacking from the front with its 20% attack modifier they become 12% / 0% / 6% </P> <P>so if we look at that Brawler is 30% / 15% / 10% to a plate tanks 12% / 0% / 6%, </P> <P>that is the main diff between plate and brawlers.... if a plate is getting hit from anywhere other than his front area he gets 1 check ...and so needs his mitigation as a mob will near enough have 100% chance of landing an attack (and we are talking raiding here)......</P> <P>If they change avoidence to work any other way they will make plate tanks to powerful, and thats is why imo they dont change it....its far to much work, if they dont change it and drastically reduce plate tanks avoid, it will cripple the plate tanks and still not make avoidence work any better.</P> <P>As for TV on the MT i personally feel the loss from my own parry is not worth it ..... my parry chance will drop from about 26% to 22% because i  wont be able to have my own parry buff up with TV .....so i lose about 4% avoid and gain a 45% chance to use a brawlers 3 avoid checks everytime the check is made and succeeds</P> <P>imo id much rather take a consistant 425 mitigation than a 45% chance for 3 avoid checks running on the 50% / 35% / 30% before any negative modifiers are applied. </P> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>05-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:43 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 AM</span>

[selch]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Code2501 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Nagg, you do realise of course if you had a monk using his Tranquil Vision on you in that MT group you would get the equivalent of an extra 10-12% avoidance that does not appear on your persona screen... so effectively a Guardian can MT with about the same avoidance chance as a brawler and higher mitigation... So I would question... do you really know what your talking about Nagg? really?</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Er.. it does appear on your person avoidance.. at L64, with adept III TV, I get 3% avoidance difference. Not 10-12% geez, I wish, it is 12 point of deflection does not equal 12 point of avoidance.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Tauch]

<blockquote><hr>selch wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Code2501 wrote: <div></div> <blockquote>Nagg, you do realise of course if you had a monk using his Tranquil Vision on you in that MT group you would get the equivalent of an extra 10-12% avoidance that does not appear on your persona screen... so effectively a Guardian can MT with about the same avoidance chance as a brawler and higher mitigation... So I would question... do you really know what your talking about Nagg? really?</blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Er.. it does appear on your person avoidance.. at L64, with adept III TV, I get 3% avoidance difference. Not 10-12% geez, I wish, it is 12 point of deflection does not equal 12 point of avoidance.</div> <hr></blockquote> The <i>guardian</i> would, in effect, be getting the larger percent of avoidance. What the percentage would be, I couldn't say, because it doesn't show in the guardian's persona window. That's what he meant.<div></div>

[EasternKing]

<DIV>The <I>guardian</I> would, in effect, be getting the larger percent of avoidance. What the percentage would be, I couldn't say, because it doesn't show in the guardian's persona window. That's what he meant.<BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>that is wrong</DIV> <DIV>the guardian gets 0 avoidence from the brawler</DIV> <DIV>the guardian get s a 47% chance per attack to make avoid checks on the brawlers avoidence. ..this has been tested by myself a lot ...and i will always take MORE damage having a brawler in the MT group over a crusader giving me 425miti.</DIV>

[zabor]

yes, since a crusader has the same buff, and around 60% avoidance compared to a brawlers 80%, the difference is very small, and more than made up for by the crusaders many different nice buffs, like wis/str buff, proc, mitigation and whatever they get from aa's.

[superdave]

EK u still havent answered someone earlier question. Why doesnt your guildie that plays a monk tank raid mobs instead of u? I mean u saying we get all this mitigation plus you said he has 1400 dps he wouldnt even need to taunt at that rate would he? I mean you are talking about the very few that can get this kind of mitigation if even possible. wish i wanna see a screenshot of it before i would ever believe it. What is your mitigation self buffed before anything is applied. i might have missed it if u posted it earlier. I bet its alot higher than ours. Honestly all you do is stir the pot dude. You ever hear more u stir the pot more it stinks.

[Code2501]

<P><SPAN>Firstly, Nagg, please don't presume avoidance tanks don't know how avoidance works.... If you know how to do the maths then the 70% means exactly what it says, 70% chance to avoid in total. The fact that it uses 3 seperate checks, which in combined create a 70% chance to avoid is commonly know to the people who rely on those chances to do their role. As to how non brawlers avoidance checks work, I think you'll find most here are more than aware of the difference between frontal and 360 avoidance, and I think you'll find most here also agree, if you have an epic flanking the MT then you probably should take a second look at your strat. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Seccond, Nagg, NO the guardian does not get 47% chance per attack (?[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?) to make avoidance checks using the monks avoidance period... I really have no idea where you got that from, you are so wrong on that I'm not even going to laugh cause I have sympathy for you. The combat art TV gives the Guard 47% chance to make an ADDITIONAL avoidance check using the Monks avoidance, <U>if they fail their avoidance check</U>, so in effect they do get additional avoidance, and those additional checks are 360, and it does come to about 10-15% avoidance equivalent for someone who is already at 65% (higher if they are a bad tank and get flanked... cause 70% of 47% of the whole 100% is much higher than just 10%, but anyway...) </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The reason you take more damage with the avoidance is cause avoidance sux VS epics...If you think my numbers are wrong, go take your monk and guardian and parse several dozen fights with even con solo mobs... I gave you the exact way it is calculated, try it yourself and get back to me when you have proof that I'm wrong. As for the mit buff being better than the avoidance in a raid situation, you've been told so many different ways and yet you still try to pretend that avoidance tanks have something over you. The fact that 10% avoidance means far less than 425 Mit you'd get from a crusader pretty much means YOU YOURSELF ADMIT THAT 10 - 15% ADDITIONAL AVOIDANCE WORKS LESS THAN 500 MITIGATION, and yet you sit there and say it is entirely ballanced that a mit tank can be within10% of a Brawlers avoidance and, acording to your post a minimum of 1k difference in mitigation... For highlighting that imballance, I thank you.   </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Third... Bewts, I corrected your maths for you:   100 Hits on guardian 65% avoidance for guardian 80% avoidance on monk</SPAN><SPAN>?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>35 hits taken by guardian</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>18 go to monk's TV and avoidance </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><STRIKE>11.8 hits are blocked, 7.2 get to guardian</STRIKE> (18*80%=14.4 hits blocked, 3.6 get to guardian) </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><STRIKE>18 + 7.2 = 25.2 get to guardian</STRIKE> (18+3.6 = 21.6)</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Or in those 100 hits, the guardian would avoid 78.4 hits <STRIKE>74.8 hits for a 74.8% avoidance</STRIKE>.  Which means the TV skill of a monk in theory with a normalized avoidance gives a guardian:</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><STRIKE>74.8% missed - 65% normally missed = 9.8% avoidance</STRIKE>. 78.4% missed - 65% normally missed = 13.4% avoidance   </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>And lastly Selch, as Taucher stated, I was refering to the equivalent avoidance that the buff would grant a plate tank sitting at about 67% avoidance. The amount of avoidance that it gives the person you put it on suffers from diminishing returns because of the mechanic it uses... basically if the player you put it on had only 10% avoidance to start with they would have gotten the equivalent of an extra 29% avoidance, but if they had 80% avoidance to start with they would only recieve the equivalent of an extra 5% avoidance... If you dont understand how this works then you might want to read more about avoidance and re-check the text on the combat art. Parses will obviously not match this unless you are fighting even con mobs and both you and the other person are the same level... but if you feel like it, go check yourself.</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Code2501 on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:49 PM</span>

[Bewts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Code2501 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Nagg, you do realise of course if you had a monk using his Tranquil Vision on you in that MT group you would get the equivalent of an extra 10-12% avoidance that does not appear on your persona screen... so effectively a Guardian can MT with about the same avoidance chance as a brawler and higher mitigation... So I would question... do you really know what your talking about Nagg? really?</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Er.. it does appear on your person avoidance.. at L64, with adept III TV, I get 3% avoidance difference. Not 10-12% geez, I wish, it is 12 point of deflection does not equal 12 point of avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>3-5% avoidance on the brawler, and implied 13% to the guardian that the guardian does not see on their avoidance screen versus an even con solo mob.  I stated the even con solo mob part because techinically that is exactly what you would get before applying negative modifiers from higher level heroic or epic mobs.</P> <P>Look at the math from the above post and my prior post to see how it was derived with the assumption of normalized avoidance (which is not the case).</P> <P>If the poster a few posts up is correct (and I think they are) about the STR of mob vs Agi of target function, then the key for maximizing avoidance for a brawler is to not only buff their avoidance high, but also to raise their agility and debuff the mob's strength by as much as you possibly can to negate the 'to hit' modifier the high strength gives the epic mob.  Of course most raids debuff as much as they can with their own debuffs, but a focus on maintaining those debuffs and especially the strength debuffs may yield more positive results for the tanking brawler.</P> <P>This also raises the case for bruisers ability to buff their agility to high numbers playing a larger effect tanking epic mobs than that of a monk.  Coupled with a mitigation buff for 3 minutes and that may be the result and reason why although monks self buff deflection better and can get closer to the cap on deflection and parry that they are 'lacking' in regards to tanking epic mobs.</P> <P>All food for thought and I will definitely be looking at agility as a key stat that I typically considered a second rate stat due to the large numbers needed to raise avoidance by 1%.</P>

[Code2501]

<P>Test Update 13d, in preperation for LU13</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=64&query.id=0#M64" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=64&query.id=0#M64</A></P> <P>- Increasing your Strength now acts as a melee damage bonus and is no longer compared to the target's Agility.<BR>- Increasing your Agility improves your avoidance and no longer mitigates your opponent's Strength bonus.</P> <P> </P> <P>Whist the actual LU13 notes did not go into as much detail on individual stat changes, I have not seen a post to suggest this did not make it to live, and I'm fairly certain that I recall several dev posts after LU13 confirming that this was in, but I can't find them right now.</P> <P> </P> <P>As such Avoidance vs even con solo mobs should be normalised regardless of your AGI or their STR. The only factors that diminish displayed avoidance Vs actual, that are in the game at the moment are conning (yellow, orang or red con mobs) and Epic status, both these factors compound so a yellow epic ignores more avoidance than a white epic.</P> <P> </P> <P>Live Update 13 is the reason you will see most of the more experienced players say that AGI is very un-important in terms of most classes. Aside from minimal avoidance increases (visable on persona screen) the only other thing AGI does is increase scout power pools.</P><p>Message Edited by Code2501 on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 PM</span>

[Vorham]

Avoidance is simply broken vs. epics.  I can hit 76% solo avoidance...easily past 80% with an outside buff or two...but usually im in the melee dps group due to my Rabid Cry. If the MT and secondary tank happen to die I'll sometimes pop into defense, mit buff, and attempt to hold it while the healers get them up.Even with parry and deflection AAs, and lots of +deflection +defense gear it's usually surprising when I actually manage to dodge/deflect/parry an epic... deflected the Mutagenic outcast a few times actually, but most others just hit right through it.Brawler tanking epic is usually just sucking up the damage and hoping the heals/wards can keep you up... least from my experiences.  Forced to become a mit tank but without the mit from armor.So I can see why the MT would rather have the Mit buff.  Normal mobs are another matter... me and a monk pal duo farm all the time.  I tank, and with his avoidance buff on me he actually parries, deflects, etc quite a bit for me.  But then again, normal heroics are chumps so it doesn't matter.<div></div>

[Kinless]

Superdave,  I think EK didnt answer your question because I am that brawler and answered it for him. I do tank Epic mobs if needed either in a pinch or otherwise, and no we wont be posting screenshots. Finally as a brawler you should well know that to get high DPS numbers said brawler is in offensive stance with many DPS raising buffs and will not be tanking that way. I honestly do not follow these boards much and am starting to feel as if I should come less due to posts like these that are just an attempt to get under someone's skin.  Ask me for facts I will give answers if I deem the answers worth giving.  Every person plays their characters differently and wants to see different things. I see my monk as a viable offtank for raids and a good tank for heroic and under content. I wanted the diversity that monks have as opposed to a gaurdians role of being a tank or a 3rd wheel. Therefore I accept that the pure mitigation of a gaurdian makes their tanking abilities verses epic mobs eclipse my avoidance and lower mitigation. Yes I have seen my mitigation in the high 9k area with right buffs, yes they have worked in trying situations. Even my stun and root mitigation buffs have come in to play when used with a rescue, group taunt, and ability to single taunt while stunned untill the MT can either regain aggro or be rebuffed from an untimely deadly blow. All of this has at times made me feel as if that " saved " the encounter, which made me have no small amount of pride in playing the diverse class that I do.  I did not make my monk in the hopes of being a raid tank. But it was nice to have evolved my playstyle in order to be able to do so. Much of what Kinz can do in raids is not attributed to being uber or leet, but totally all part of what 23 other people are doing to make the raid encounter a success.  Honestly I think a brawler with the right equipment can and will ( if not already do ) tank all the raid content  in game to date. It just takes a different strategy than having a high mitigation tank. ( of course the change in strategy in my view is still going to be less effective as a whole than having a mitigation tank in that role ) .   <div></div>