"Brawlers are overpowered" How?

[Tamo]

<DIV>This may have been posted before so sorry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night I was discussing our main characters with some folks. When I said I used a monk as my main character the only reaction I got was "Brawlers are overpowered". When I asked why they said this the only examples they could come with were:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers this, Bruisers that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and of course the one monk soloing the 71^^^.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, because of Bruisers and the one monk example they gave the entire Brawler class get labeled as overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This came from a warlock and ranger respectively....</DIV>

[CaptainDaveyJones]

Make no mistake about it, monks and bruisers will get the nerf bat.Thanks to the famous 71^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ post and the ability for monks to go overboard with sustained dps with AP's ....and typical bruiser base dps/abilities, I am sure the bat will be swinging.For those who aren't endgame and decked out - sorry, you can enjoy the nerf anyhow thanks the braggers who post how big their you know what is....*shrugs*Same kind of things happened right before the rangers got the largest nerf bat from hell...Hold on tight and buckle up.<div></div>

[Ssinis]

These posts are getting kind of old, and I have not even been posting for a long time.  We have gotten the nerf bat many times before, and then again we also were helped.  The 71^^^ named solo that was posted was before they changed the difficulty of the encounter.  1 Monk doing something great wont mess it up for the rest...<div></div>

[Tamo]

<P>First off this post was not made to bash people for doing something great.</P> <P> </P> <P>I just get tired of being told that we need to be nerfed because of this.... We have been nerfed. Personally, I don't think we are nearly as strong as we could/should be. If, AGI actually raised our avoidance more than it does at the current time we could easily reach 80% avoidance on raids. I'm at 71% on raids( Sorry. ).</P> <P> </P> <P>Next, if people have problems with Bruisers pulling aggro on raids then tell your guard to use a taunt every now and then. Its not my fault he sucks nor is it anyone elses.</P>

[PrometheusO]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamo wrote:<BR> <P>First off this post was not made to bash people for doing something great.</P> <P> </P> <P>I just get tired of being told that we need to be nerfed because of this.... We have been nerfed. Personally, I don't think we are nearly as strong as we could/should be. If, AGI actually raised our avoidance more than it does at the current time we could easily reach 80% avoidance on raids. I'm at 71% on raids( Sorry. ).</P> <P> </P> <P>Next, if people have problems with Bruisers pulling aggro on raids then tell your guard to use a taunt every now and then. Its not my fault he sucks nor is it anyone elses.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Amen to that.  Also, on post about a monk soloing a 71^^^ will get the whole EQ2 community up in a frenzy.  So it does matter that a post like that is made.   I applaud the person that can actually pull a solo effort like that but they should know better than to post it.  Things like that send shock waves through the forms.  Everyone wants to be as tough as the next person.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sensai Musashi</P> <P>53lvl Monk</P> <P>Lucan D'Lere</P>

[Dfoley3]

<DIV>Meh i solo the lvl 70 guiloteens all the time in palace of awakened.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not a trick, nor is it a hack or overpowered class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have max int line - decent gear (stuff from lab)  - and master defense stance - self buffed hp of 7800 (with potion).   For those who dont know that puts me at 5.1 k mitigation if im sub 30% hp.   IT also gives me a 100% crit rate.   Meaning, if a mob doesnt dot, or cast spells i can typicaly solo it.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks and bruisers are only seen as over powered cause our dps is rarely situational.  We can churn out the same dps an entire fight regardless of if we are facing the mobs back or not (for the most part).  Monks can self buff to 100% dps, and with 2 other buffs reach 100% dps mod also.  Bruisers can get to 60% haste 100% dps in their typical dps groups.   Neither of which is over powered if you consider the fact that most T1 melee dps can do the same, but with poisons that proc for 1k and combat arts that hit for 5x as much.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, a brawler might be seen as over powered because of feign death and its superior ability to scout mobs.   I assure you at adept 3, 98% fd, it fails.... a lot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all, most of it is jealously from people to blind to realize what they have.   Rangers can do 1500 dps and when they see a monk do 1100 they call nerf ignoring the fact that we dont have an form of agro debuff and usualy will peel after 800 dps unless the tank is uber hated moded.   Most plate tanks call us over powered because we can tank and do dps, again ignoring the fact that mitigation is 5000x more usefull then avoidance.  I can tank halls of fate, but it gets rough at the berserkers, where as a guardian with 6k mit can tank it and not really have to worry.  </DIV>

[Rrawl]

<P>   Personally, I think the brawler classes are not easy to play... We CAN do good dps, we CAN tank well, but doing either well requires a lot of effort, attention to skills, timing, and such on the part of the player. IMO, most of us who enjoy playing a brawler and stuck with it into the upper levels are good players, and therefore we make our class look a little better then the class alone accounts for...   Maybe that's just been my experience based on the brawlers that I have interacted with...</P> <P> </P>

[Rrawl]

<P> And if brawlers are so overpowered, how come there aren't more of them at level 70?</P> <P>Level 70 worldwide EQ2 population, by class, as of 10:30 CST 4/13/06. Statistics from: <A href="http://www.eq2census.com/" target=_blank>eq2census.com</A></P> <P>Class - Count<BR>Wizard - 914<BR>Templar - 774<BR>Guardian - 759<BR>Berserker - 665<BR>Conjuror - 646<BR>Fury -638<BR>Paladin - 622<BR>Ranger - 572<BR>Necromancer - 563<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Monk - 476<BR></FONT>Warlock - 468<BR>Warden - 434<BR>Mystic - 422<BR>Assassin - 420<BR>Inquisitor - 414<BR>Shadow Knight - 387<BR>Swashbuckler - 366<BR>Dirge - 360<BR><FONT color=#ffcc00>Bruiser - 348<BR></FONT>Troubador - 319<BR>Brigand - 291<BR>Defiler - 287<BR>Illusionist - 278<BR>Coercer - 201</P><p>Message Edited by Rrawl on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[host1l31]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I dont know when its gonna sink into peoples THICK skulls that the monk that soloed that mob was using  weapons that kept it permanently stifled. It wont ever happen again. Yes brawlers are good at soloing but so  are alot of other classes. Ide also like to point of since the " ranger nurf" bruisers dps has suffered. Currently bruiser off stance is almost useless.  So if i were rolling up a brawler it would definelty be a monk as they havent been touched by nerf bat yet.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by host1l31 on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[Xxooo-Coav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PrometheusO wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Amen to that.  <STRONG>Also, on post about a monk soloing a 71^^^ will get the whole EQ2 community up in a frenzy</STRONG>.  So it does matter that a post like that is made.   I applaud the person that can actually pull a solo effort like that but they should know better than to post it.  Things like that send shock waves through the forms.  Everyone wants to be as tough as the next person.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Sensai Musashi</P> <P>53lvl Monk</P> <P>Lucan D'Lere</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Its not just monks. Anyone remember that lvl 50 wizard (back when that was cap) soloed Tundra Jack and friend in Everfrost? Remember how everyone threw a fit saying wizards were overpowered? Basically, (to sum up <EM>everyone) </EM>unless all classes can solo that same named, then every class that can kill the named is overpowered.</P> <P>On a side note, there are way too many lvl 70 monks.... and not enough druids at that level..  = P<BR></P>

[zabor]

I think our dps is too high. We shouldnt be able to compete with scouts and mages, at least not the high dps ones.SoE intends us to be on par with bards and enchanters, which atm do half of our dps. But I already heard our dps will be adjusted accordingly.

[Savanja]

As much as this pains me, our dps is probably a little too high.  Is it bad enough that we should get nerfed?  I dunno..maybe.  The dps on the brawlers is in exchange for the mit that the other tanks have.  I'd hate to lose it.  In solo'ing, since we can't take hits as well as other tank classes, our biggest benefit is that we can kill the mob faster.<div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Savanja wrote:<BR>The dps on the brawlers is in exchange for the mit that the other tanks have. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No it isn't.  Our avoidance is the trade-off for the mit that other tanks have.</P> <P>Our dps probably is too high in a lot of instances and could stand to be toned down.<BR></P>

[Savanja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Savanja wrote:The dps on the brawlers is in exchange for the mit that the other tanks have. <hr> </blockquote> <p>No it isn't.  Our avoidance is the trade-off for the mit that other tanks have.</p> <p>Our dps probably is too high in a lot of instances and could stand to be toned down.</p><hr></blockquote>Mm..yeah.  But IMO, my avoidance isnt making up for it, so I'm happy to have my dps to beat stuffs down quickly.</div>

[mrjak]

<P>MOre nerfs such as "toning down our dps" will make more people leave the game including me.  After all, there are other MMO's around the block now.</P> <P> </P> <P>/e waves</P>

[NerissaRavenHeart]

<blockquote><hr>mrjak01 wrote:<div></div> <p>MOre nerfs such as "toning down our dps" will make more people leave the game including me.  After all, there are other MMO's around the block now.</p> <p>/e waves</p><hr></blockquote>Whatever floats your boat.Masuimi<div></div>

[Savanja]

<div><blockquote><hr>mrjak01 wrote:<div></div> <p>MOre nerfs such as "toning down our dps" will make more people leave the game including me.  After all, there are other MMO's around the block now.</p> <p>/e waves</p><hr></blockquote>Changes to a class aren't going to make me quit a game I love.  *If* they were to muck up the Monk to where I didn't like playing her anymore, I have a conjurer just dieing to get some playtime.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[dagoo7]

<P>I truly hope you guys are getting worked up about nothing.  These gripes stem from the outdated archetype system in which every member of an archetype supposed to be able to do exactly the same things to the same degree.  We all know this didn't work and frankly there's no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] reason there should only be 4 classes in the game.  </P> <P>There are 24 classes keep them different, hell make them more different.  Why shouldn't there be a class thats halfway between a scout and a fighter, sacrificing some defense or tanking ability for better dps.  Do people get [Removed for Content] because Dirges/troubadors dont do the same dps as other scouts?  No because they are a freakin' different class that serves a different purpose.  If developers responded to everyone's complaints, everyone would be nerfed/turned into essentially the same class.  Not a game I want to play.</P><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[zabor]

Well, a tank class competing with a dps class on the dps sector is just wrong and needs to be fixed asap. You can't deny that. If you want us to be halfway between tanks and scouts, then we should do half the dps of a scout and tank half as good as a warrior. Do you really want that?

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>Well, a tank class competing with a dps class on the dps sector is just wrong and needs to be fixed asap. You can't deny that. <BR>If you want us to be halfway between tanks and scouts, then we should do half the dps of a scout and tank half as good as a warrior. Do you really want that?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>May be you should play more with avarage gear with talking of DPS balance, I'm already sick of balancing classes "due to your types" vs "avarage of another class", thanks God, devs are at least more intelligent to see difference between and aware majority of classes does not raid. Drowning other style of players down because of your uberness.</P> <P>In your question, may be devs should review "fabled loot" instead of classes, will be more healthy for everyone then. As an avarage monk  I'm not making half DPS as a ranger does and I'm happy to make close to Berserker DPS with avarage gear which can tank better than me. Congratulations to you if you do.</P> <P>And very nice comprasion for utility class to be categorised as "dps class" </P> <P>And for "toned down", well, you still comparing single target burst DPS to encounter wide DPS?  May be you should. Taking full length Offensive stance while not tanking may be can make us close to Berserker area dps, while they tank. <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[Cyngii]

<P>The other monk in our guild and I do really good dps IMO (for monks)... do we compare DPS wise to other scouts in our guild?  Heck no... Do we compare in DPS to summoners?  Oh heck no... they tear stuff up.  We do compare to warlocks/wizards, but that's not a call for a Monk/Bruiser nerf but rather the sorcerers somehow got left behind with the T7 DPS scaling.  When wizards are 300-400dps behind summoners and predators i would say that's a top tier DPS problem... not ours.  When comparing like equipped toons, the desired DPS tree is pretty dang close to where Moorgard stated they wanted it.  If anything I would say the summoners are way too high (consistently highest DPS on raids), with the predators pretty much neck and neck with the summoners.  Behind them are the sorcerers, rogues, and brawlers.  Pretty much where they should be...</P> <P>The problem I have is I get the feeling that the majority think that just by being in a certain archetype you're guaranteed to be good and be king of the DPS tree.  Nothing against scouts (love my ranger alt), but there are a lot of very ill equipped scouts out there.  I've seen the type of dps well equipped predators do, and ones that are well equipped I can't and don't even try to compete with them DPS wise.  However should a scout with treasured/legendary weapons and adept1-3 CAs do more damage than a brawler with fabled weapons and Adept3-Master1 CAs?  Personally I don't think so...  The archetype system is pretty dang close to where the Devs said it should be, and IMO people have to realize there is going to be a standard deviation associated within each archetype...   There are going to be some bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid equipped brawlers that yeah aren't going to compete with bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid equipped scouts, but will possibly compete with the powerleveled scout with broker gear.  Some people might have problems with that, I personally don't.  </P> <P> </P>

[zabor]

1. I only compare to ppl in my guild (i rarely play with pickups, and then i dont parse). So i compare myself to similar equipped and skilled rangers / assassins /brigands etc. And we are way too close to them.And your remark about one time burst dps is very strange, since monks are the kings of steady good dps even when low on power. Our burst dps is very low.

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>1. I only compare to ppl in my guild (i rarely play with pickups, and then i dont parse). So i compare myself to similar equipped and skilled rangers / assassins /brigands etc. And we are way too close to them.<BR><BR><BR>And your remark about one time burst dps is very strange, since monks are the kings of steady good dps even when low on power. Our burst dps is very low.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> As I said, then you both should do it with equally equipped avarage gear or blame your gear making you better DPS can ask for nerf on your gear why not? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cyngii]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR><BR>And your remark about one time burst dps is very strange, since monks are the kings of steady good dps even when low on power. Our burst dps is very low.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have to disagree here a bit... When we fly through our CAs, that does quite a bit of damage in a really short amount of time.  So on short fights our DPS will be skewed high by the burst damage we get from chaining our CAs, but on long fights we do consistent overall DPS since a good majority of it comes from autoattack damage with spikes from our CAs.<BR>

[zabor]

our ca's do low damage compared to the >10k nukes or assassinates. Of course we can cast them all at once and have "burst dps". But its nothing compared to assassin burst dps. We don't have to wait 5 min for a ca to recycle, so our dps is more steady.

[nobunaga_x]

Man I am decked out with dark diciple gear mixed with some excarnate and I can't solo ^^^ that are normally higher than green.  I also have al master stances and a bunch of other masters.

[Cyngii]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>our ca's do low damage compared to the >10k nukes or assassinates. Of course we can cast them all at once and have "burst dps". But its nothing compared to assassin burst dps. We don't have to wait 5 min for a ca to recycle, so our dps is more steady.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well yeah... DPS on a single CA is infinite so nothing can ever beat that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Getting back on track... I parse.. I parse a lot.  The people at the top of the DPS ladder are Assassins, Necros, Conjurers, and Rangers.  Nobody else is really close not even the sorcerers.  They are on every fight between 1050-1400 DPS on every fight (single target raid mobs.  The brawlers that i parse are in the 750-1000 range... the catch being when the brawlers are hitting 1000dps the top tier DPSer are hitting the high end of their scale too, so we're always a couple hundred DPS behind.  You take those numbers over a minute+ long fight and you are talking 30k+ more damage.  If you're seeing something much different then more power to you, but I'm personnaly not seeing it.  What i'm seeing the summoners do mean consistent damage, sorcerers are currently gimped to oblivion (why take a sorcerer when summoners do consistently 200-300 more dps), and rogues are hard to come by so rarely parse them.</DIV>

[Tamo]

Scale Sorcerors up a bit. How about that?

[DarkerApprenti]

<font face="Arial" size="1">A few factors to consider for sure. With the new achievement system there are some brawlers who DPS better on single targets and others that DPS better on multiple targets. I think that due to the differences in AA choices you can't blindly say all brawlers are putting out equal DPS (also factor in gear and CA tiers). For example a monk friend of mine pumped all his AAs into STR and INT. He beats me on the parses on solo fights but the minute we fight more than two mobs in a single encounter I'm out DPSing him (I went down WIS and INT).  I'm not really trying to make a point other than to say if calling for a nerf bat, one has to consider that there are now different flavors of monk / bruiser thanks to AA choice.</font>

[Cyngii]

They should be... big time.  They ruled the DoF expansion and suffered the wrath of the boomstick because of it IMO.  Up to now the summoners are by far the DPS kings of this expansion, but have heard summoner nerf rumors for awhile now.  So if you back them off a little bit (little bit being key word), up the sorcers, then allow some people to self buff their rogues to level 70 so they were actually around I think things would be in good shape.  I guess my question for those saying we do too much damage, what do you find yourself doing that would warrant calling for less damage?  We're not top tier DPS... We're not raid tanks... Is it the strong demand for our 18% group haste or group feign death?  When tanking I guarantee you're nowhere near scout dps (well not bards).  I'm just interested since i think we're in a pretty good niche of mediocrity right now that i'm happy with.

[DarkerApprenti]

<font face="Arial" size="1">Cyngii, I have to say, for the most part, I am in agreement with you.</font>

[Rrawl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cyngii wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Getting back on track... I parse.. I parse a lot.  The people at the top of the DPS ladder are Assassins, Necros, Conjurers, and Rangers.  Nobody else is really close not even the sorcerers. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I parse a lot too, and I see the same things, and I can also tell you that Rogues, while a slight step down from the 4 above parse well above brawlers as well. Having said that, let me use some observances from a pickup trash mob run through the labs last weekend... All parties involved were level 70, wearing largely t7 legendary gear with a  a very few fableds (all t6 I believe)</P> <P>ConjurerA topped the charts every time.</P> <P>RangerA was always right behind him.</P> <P>MonkA/RangerB (that's me) were consistently neck and neck, sometimes one of us came out a bit above the other. (Ranger was slacking, no other explanation... I've fought with him before and he usually outdoes me...)</P> <P>NecroA was always here... gotta wonder about this guy, I didn't talk to him... (yes I was combining his pets)</P> <P>RangerC was usually next - I actually spoke with this guy a bit, and he claims to be a debuffing Ranger, due to his AA choices, and therefore doesnt do as much dps... *boggle*</P> <P>MonkB here... he was training slashing... haha.</P> <P>I cut out the wizards and warlock from that list as they were sometimes up sometimes down...</P> <P>The point is... we only outdamage the real dpser's when they slack off, or are worried about stealing aggro, or just don't play their class well...   But I think a lot of them fall into the above categories and this is where the misconception about brawler DPS being comparable/better then true dps classes comes in.</P>

[Kaz]

<div></div>This topic came up at the Fan Faire as far as Brawlers being over powered. One of the devs said (sorry, can't remember which one) that while he thought we <i>might </i>be slightly overpowerd, there were no plans to adjust us as this point. That also probably means no adjustment to our mitigation. I have grouped with Berserkers who put out some insane damage as well and don't really hear anyone calling for the nerfbat for them.Overall, I like where we are at. If I wanted to be king of tanks, I'd play a guardian, if I wanted to be king of DPS I would work up my conjurer. I like being a jack of all trades and a master of none. It leaves a lot of room for filling in multiple spots. If I want to tank, I do. If I want to DPS, I do that. If I want to solo, I do that as well. It keeps life interesting and keeps me from getting bored.<div></div>

[Axamand]

<DIV>this is prolly not the right place for this, but reading the thread and i see Krystanna's post...it sounds to me from your gear and spell descriptions you should be able to do WAY more than what you say you can...how much have you tried to solo harder mobs?  im sure that all of us monks have our own little system but i'll drop my technique for killing very hard mobs solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>know what kind of mob you are about to fight...get close to it, target it, look at what buffs it has, read what they do, adjust your gear according to resists that you might need, use your potions.   turn on offensive stance, and everburning. Remember not to queue your CA's, always let autoattack land before doing the next one...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cast storming palm, then immediatly pull with STR hex doll. (if fighting a caster, queue Ward during doll cast) when cast of doll is almost finished, turn on ranged autoattack (you really should have a decent ranged weapon, and some Adamantine ammo, this is just plain free damage here), as soon as doll lands start running backwards until the mob starts to get close to you.  run into the mob and cast Jaguar.  Cobra, Pressure point (str line for me, if not, then i would suggest flying dragon or dragonbreath here) Talon, Centipede, soaring eagle....at this point the mob should be well into the yellow at least and should not have hit you more than once.   Silecing palm, then pop tsunami , frozen palm, brocks thermal shocker, the other crappy kick i cant remember its name, do a HO. when Tsunami is Almost done, go into defensive stance...at this point the mob should be in the orange, and you should have only been hit once or twice, you now have about 5 seconds of being able to do nothing much, use a heal potion, or maybe another HO etc, until Jaguar recycles and you can start the stuns again i usually have to use heal during this time, when jaguar is almost back up, go back into offensive stance. when jaguar recycles start the whole order again, and most mobs will be dead before they get unstunned again.  (feel free to sub any non stun CA in the lineup with dispell if you have counters)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>like i said, most people have thier own system, when i solo, i use my CA's in almost exactly the same order every time and this is pretty much it.  have a reason for doing a CA at any given time...know how long your stuns last, and dont give up if you get killed.  not going to say what kinds of mobs i can kill by doing this, but you will never know what YOU can kill until you walk up to it and try to jam a fist or staff down its throat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>back to the OP topic...are brawlers overpowered? ...i watched a wizard "solo" Ishtaran the Skarize last night with only a couple heals from our preist when he harvested mana, took about 15 minutes and he had like FT 402, but honestly he never got hit, if he had been alone, it would have taken 20 min but he still would have won...can every wizard do that...i doubt it, just like every monk cant solo a 71^^^, honestly a berzerker with similar quality gear , AAs, spell quality, and skill, comes very close to monk dps and even surpasses it on multi mob fights.  My monk is not the same type of character i made over a year ago, but ive rolled with the changes, adjusted my tactics, and learned how to play him the best i can...i do not think monks need toning down, if i spend 24 aa points in AA's that add to my dps exclusively, i dang well should be doing some decent dps, a lvl 69 scout with 15 aa's should be below me on my parser, and they usually are...i think this is where the majority of the "overpowered" cry comes from. A high 60's or especially newly 70 character with one master 1 and one AD3, mostly treasured gear, and still looking to replace one or two app4's...see's something like Ryza's abominable feat and says HEY, I should be able to do that too !</DIV>

[Gungo]

I dont think brawlers are overpowered. What i do think is that applied procs via Double attack are not naturalised and in effect the secondary proc effect of a double attack is alot more likely to process. This in turn causes a massive leap in the DPS charts which is why currently the str line of AA's and goign unarmed can exceed a combined damage rating of 100DR+ on weapons. Brawlers not going down this AA path seem to do a more consistent ~1k-1.2k dps. which Imho is fine considering true T1 dps as in rangers/conjurors/necros/assasins can get 2k dps and T2 dps brigands/swashbucklers/wiz/warlock cna hit ~1.5k dps. Finally T3 Dps is brawlers, Battlemages (shadowknights), zerkers, Troubadors (i have seen troubs break 1kdps) ~1k-1.2k dps, T4 dps ~800 DPS guards, paladins. these are in raid settings of course fully buffed.

[Gungo]

<p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:14 PM</span>

[Prothos]

<P>I am only going to get into t6 grps.  I group with ranger's alot and casters of course.  A ranger unless slacking will out damage me every single fight.  I have better gear by far then my one ranger friend who is more of a softcore person and he still out does me.  When I was raiding with my zerker I got a chance to see some parses etc.  Brawlers do good DoT.  Is that a crime?  </P> <P>Soloing a ^^^ named well we see summoners do it all the time.  But honestly unless your [Removed for Content] in full fable/master1's/adept3s you do not stand a chance.  Back to the named point.  Not all summoners can take down some nameds not all monks will beable to kill heroics not all etc.  Skill and gear will be the factors.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[diamondma]

our damage does not need to be nerf nor is it overpowered. if you take away our dps then we lose the ability to hold agro. ever try holding agro from a warlock thats going all out? i know everyone claims that they hold agro just fine but ask a good warlock to go all out if ur spec'd on anything but str line and u will see the mob turn very quickly. we already took a huge hit on agro when they made proc's only work off the primary slot the last thing we need is to have our other source of agro screwed with too. <div></div>

[NerissaRavenHeart]

<div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:our damage does not need to be nerf nor is it overpowered. if you take away our dps then we lose the ability to hold agro. ever try holding agro from a warlock thats going all out? i know everyone claims that they hold agro just fine but ask a good warlock to go all out if ur spec'd on anything but str line and u will see the mob turn very quickly. we already took a huge hit on agro when they made proc's only work off the primary slot the last thing we need is to have our other source of agro screwed with too. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Amen to that. Kinda makes using Twin Calamities in Primary and Secondary not complimenting to each other =(Masuimi</div>

[zabor]

maybe you forgot that weapon procs are still applied to both hands, the proc change was only for spell based procs.

[Anjin]

<P>AFAIK only weapons with spells on them will proc in the offhand, so the TC's will be fine.  Buffs etc etc (inc storm advance) will only proc on main hand.</P> <P>Anjin</P>

[diamondma]

its not that they dont proc its that they only proc off the primary slots swings instead of the primary and secondary. it never increased the proc percentage but it increased the dmg dealt <div></div>

[zabor]

the proc from the twin calamities is still applied on both mainhand and offhand. It's just the spell based procs that have been nerfed. So the effectiveness of the TC has been completely unaffected.

[DynamicPerforman]

<DIV>Only weapons in mainhand will proc.  I tried SSOY and PGT and only the one in main would proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is the calamities somehow different?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dynamicman out...</DIV>

[diamondma]

<div></div>yea ill try my anuk baton and an imbue'd weap later and see if they both proc but from the way i understood is that both weaps would proc individually off the swings from your main hand <div></div><p>Message Edited by diamondmage on <span class=date_text>04-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:54 PM</span>

[Prothos]

Your secondary weapon procs also.  I have used differnt proc weps in my hands many time.  You should do more testing before you come out and say something thats not right.

[Reposa]

<div></div>I think our DPS is perfect right now.  One of the main problems I see if the fact that brawler gear and weapons are much easier to come by than scout gear and weapons, at least to us.. I have 4 fabled T7 weapons, both calamities (both proc), a 2h from Gorenaire, a 2h from Vyemm.  I have full T7 fabled armor except bracers, and I have a lot of T7 fabled jewelery. I think the problem atm with scout DPS being only slightly better than brawler dps is based on the fact that I think I have only seen 1 fabled T7 scout weapon and 1 fabled bow.  Not to mention scouts seem to have the worst luck with their gear in my guild.. Anyway, if every scout had 2 T7 fabled proccing weapons and/or a T7 fabled bow, then I think scouts would be putting out a lot more DPS. Also I think our DPS depends on our AA build.  It's very possible to add 200 DPS if a brawler takes the right paths. Another big factor in our DPS is, 99% of the time I don't move from a mob.  Most scouts have to pulse stuff where I am constantly laying into a mob, even if I steal agro, I'm still hitting the mob, trying to stay alive with my heal/tsunami/etc.. I honestly think we're perfect the way we are.  We can raid tank well with the right group set-ups, we aren't close to on par with guardians in raids though.  I haven't really seen a crusader tank much this expansion so I'll leave them out..  As for soloing, I think our major trade off from guardians and monks is that guardians are total meat shields.. they actually have really nice DPS too but as for soloing, we get a heal, tsunami, and a ward.. that right there sets apart from guardians.. Soloability vs scouts well, a scout can do a lot to a mob that we can't.  While we have to sit there and take every hit, most scouts can kite a mob with snare, and burn them with huge CA's.   Honestly it all depends on the person playing the class.  No one is the same, and only the best of the best can do the things that everyone is so heated about.  I would love to see a level 70 monk in full crafted gear to even 1/10th of the stuff a monk in full fabled can do. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Reposado on <span class=date_text>04-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 AM</span>

[Bewts]

Let me make a few statements, then I'll explain why the AA are not nearly as borked as people think: On raids top end raids, you typically don't allow more than one crusader, one guardian, a zerker and perhaps a brawler or two.  It's been like this since LU13.  Fighters typically didn't offer the DPS that the scout classes brough into a raid.  There isn't a huge need for lots of off tanks in raids and even if a fighter tries to help out and off tank epic mobs, they die in a few hits unless you pre-build a second tank group.  The mobs just hit too hard for you to live long unless you are a monk with riposte, ward and even then at most you have 12 seconds before you die. Overall, fighters don't bring the huge debuffs that scouts do, they don't bring the DPS scouts do, and they can't tank an epic add unless they were pre-designated to do so with a group built around them for that purpose. Those three things have made it so that a fighter heavy raid outright lacks the DPS to defeat many epic encounters.  This has 'shafted' many fighters from raid positions, and raiding guilds have built themselves around this by limiting the fighter classes they recruit and are ALWAYS looking for more scouts. With that said, the AA lines have allowed the dedicated fighter classes with great gear and no spot on a raid to grey the lines enough to be VIABLE replacements for scouts in raw DPS.  This does not count the debuffs that you lose with lacking scouts obviously.  A prime example was a raid on Hurricanous where our raid lacked both a swashy and brigand.  Our best DPS was topping out at 200-300 the first few attempts.  When our brigand logged in, the DPS shot up to 500-600 for the top DPS classes. Allowing a fighter to at LEAST match the DPS of a weak geared, few master'd, few AA'd, casual played scout is a way for guilds to have a reasonable attempt at an epic encounter before they have to throw the towel in because of the lack of debuffs AND DPS to defeat the encounter. I'm almost positive a well played, well geared, maxxed leveled and AA'd scout will surpass a fighter who went all out offensive skills.  A fighter who went defensive will also lose out (unless the MT who is super buffed).  I would think that a fighter who went all out on AA for DPS should be able to raise their DPS tier by a half to 3/4.  Meaning that if a Zerker was the top of tier 3, bottom of tier 2 that they would be able to easily maintain a tier 2 DPS and if they were in an encounter that augments their strengths in the case of a zerker  a fight with multiple mobs and put in a DPS slot, be able to reach tier 1 DPS numbers. Both brawlers would be in the same thing as the zerker, depending on gear brawlers can be anywhere from high T3 DPS to low T2 before AA are considered.  With the proper AA setup you can maintain a solid top tier 2 DPS position outside of a DPS designed group.  Thrown into a DPS slot both brawlers can obtain T1 DPS and essentially replace a weaker developed scout or fill in for a scout slot if the scouts aren't on the raid. In all three cases of the monk, bruiser and zerkers, having them in a DPS position will not hurt the DPS of the raid as drastically as it was pre KoS and AA.  The only drawback is you will lose some large debuffs that those scout classes add to a raid that contribute to the overall DPS of the raid.  I do not see this as a negative thing as it allows guilds to possibly succeed where before you would have had no chance at success.  I was in a guild that was fighter heavy, and we could beat some encounters in T6, but not all of them because we lacked the developed scout classes to truely attempt some encounters with confidence. As I said earlier, AA skills allow classes to fill a role or slot on a raid that typically pre AA they were unable to do.  As an ex officer of a guild that was already fighter heavy, but not always filling out our raids, I wouldn't have had to turn down so many fighters or tell guilded fighters there wasn't room in our raids if we had the AA tree in T6. One last thing... auto attack damage means nothing in parses as that is not always the useable DPS available to a class on a raid.  As a fully master'd lvl 70 Monk, my available DPS and useable DPS is surely different than a monk with adept1/adept3.  Factor in group setup, the level of their buffs, and the types of debuffs on the epic mob and DPS can swing 300 DPS in either direction.  Also, did you use outward calm and skip an AE, did the raid have to jouse the fight?   In other words, I could parse 600 DPS on one day in a non DPS slot in a raid with no brigand and swashy, and the next night parse 1200 DPS on the same exact encounter that is fully debuffed.  If our DPS ranges from 600-1200 DPS as a monk, I find that acceptable and it truely shows just how grey'd out the lines are for the DPS tiers now that AA are available. <div></div>

[zabor]

Well, i raid and parse a lot, and i can regularly compete with <font color="red">equally equipped & skilled</font> scout classes, and i am in no way geared towards dps, my whole equipement and AA's are geared towards max hp/mitigation/avoidance. I can only imagine what i would parse with a full dps spec.<b>A brawler specced for dps competing with scouts/mages is just as wrong as a Paladin specced for healing and outhealing a templar.</b> You cannot argue that a paladin just because he isnt needed for maintank should do a healers full job.

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>Well, i raid and parse a lot, and i can regularly compete with <FONT color=red>equally equipped & skilled</FONT> scout classes, and i am in no way geared towards dps, my whole equipement and AA's are geared towards max hp/mitigation/avoidance. I can only imagine what i would parse with a full dps spec.<BR><BR><B>A brawler specced for dps competing with scouts/mages is just as wrong as a Paladin specced for healing and outhealing a templar.</B> You cannot argue that a paladin just because he isnt needed for maintank should do a healers full job.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><STRONG><EM>Yes, that's wrong, that's why they need to nerf fabled brawler equipment. Sound good?</EM></STRONG> No, there is no chance of "a brawler & scout can be equally equipped", so you mean Scouts wearing "YOUR" leather armor "YOUR" weapons and having YOUR AA selection, right? And they show YOUR effort in raid, right? </P> <P>Because currently with treasured or legendary, can not parse anything close to that half ranger/mage DPS. </P> <P>I'm not talking about big badass raid buffs, I'm talking with casual group buffs. Classes does not BENEFIT from group / raid buffs AT SAME DEGREE. But ofcourse, you are aware of that.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I respect you Ryza, you sure know how to play "your" monk, can you really guarantee your buddies know how to play their class as much as you do on your monk?  Sometimes you are really not aware if you really think all factors what making you that much DPS or all world consist only and only you and if that is so easy to calculate, everyone would be rioting by now.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Take a brawler & scout at L30, L50, L20, L40, get them unnaked without equipment, only give them their class specific same level crafted weapons then parse against same mob or same "dummy" player doing nothing.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Then tell us your claim is correct. Not in random parses of same players.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:19 AM</span>

[zabor]

what i wanted to say was, our equipement is comparable and you cant blame any dps differences on items or skill. I think you perfectly understood me and just try to find some reasons for keeping your high dps.I am very sure my guildmates know how to play their classes, otherwise xanadu wouldn't be a very successful raiding guild. And i can inspect their equipement, so I know its comparable to mine. (hey, I only got 3 T7 fabled pieces)It's getting quite old, everytime some monk outparses a scout, better equipement, more skill or the other classes slacking gets blamed for it. You could almost get the impression all scouts are afk during raids, and only monks have skill.<p>Message Edited by zaboron on <span class=date_text>04-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:56 PM</span>

[selch]

<DIV>.. And I don't have any fabled pieces nor tons of 57 rating weapons in my vendor so much that I don't even care for their rating and thinking they are trash to sell to vendor...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, I did not understand you. I'm 450 DPS max in a full group when I'm MT and close to half of next ranger at same level to me. What I should understand?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everytime a monk on tank will be down at a scout that is not slacking. Simple truth. You are so ignorantly talking that we do tanking and dps at same time. I wonder if tomorrow you would claim we tank better than guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, but yes, we have better DPS in "fighter" classes almost on par with Berserkers, we are no where close to rangers as you claim. I'm sure your friends really not aware of what they are doing or scared of grabbing aggro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beside don't get me wrong, I'm not telling your guild is worthless. I'm just saying, you are in wrong impression of thinking monk as your setup, offensive mode with full raid haste and DPS buffs at capped degree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just saying what you are parsing does not show our DPS is better or we outdps (<-- that's especially BS) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>PS: And I'm sure you are AWARE of not all Scout classes focused on DPS, like not all fighters focused on tank. So I'm not talking about someone who are scouts, I'm just telling who are purely focused on DPS like "Rangers" rather than "utility" focused Troubadours when you are in offensive mode. <P>If developers went on with your mentality, they should take away chain armor & avoidance close to ours from swashbucklers, just because they are pure DPS class, they should not get hit or off-tank anytime needed.  That's why here starts difference between "Solo" game "group" game & "raid" game. </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 AM</span>

[Siberia2]

Ryza,     First off, all this talk about rangers and DPS is foolish in itself. Rangers as it stands right now are not up to par as far as a recovery from the proc change.     Second, if you load up all the procs and the +DPS buffs on raids onto a monk, of course he's going to do a ton of damage. It's the same deal for beserkers, hell, you could throw vraksakin's club on a guardian, load him out with +haste, +dps and procs, and he'll do superb damage, trade off is he'll gain seirous aggro, not to mention loose the shield avoidance. If you do the same to a berserker on an AE fight he'll blow everyone away. Point is, if you place those same buffs on a scout, they are going to outdamage us, plus without fear of aggro. A monk left be, either tanking or in a bland DPS spot will not outdamage a scout simply because their arts do more damage than ours. An assassin, for example, is constanting chaining combat arts in sequence which do on average no less than 1000 damage.     You claim that our DPS needs to be nerfed, because we tank so well, right? I'm not going to go into the raid tanking bit, I've done it, I know how it's done, the point is we have 1(one) group buff, and 1(one) single target avoidance buff. Guardians(Although disputed, I'm sure) have some pretty cool group buffs. Group intercedes, Group HP, Group Mitigation. We, on the other hand, have our DPS.     Like Selch said, you can't come to the boards and complain about our DPS based on what you have seen. The other fighters in the same situation do the exact same thing(save guards) and have you seen what a paladin can do AE with the right AAs? You seem to be so intent on being a tank, and doing nothing but tanking, Ryza, perhaps you should roll a guardian. <div></div>

[Panglic]

<P>To be honest i've no ideea what you guys are on about.</P> <P> </P> <P>When combat revision was released ( DoF ) my assassin ( which had 2 cobalt weps, and a vanadium str ring - rest of equipment was treasured ) would outdps a brawler by a LOT ( and back then people were whining assassins do crappy dps ).</P> <P>Recently, i can outdps any brawler by a lot more than i used to( now i'm geared quite decent ).  I've heard of the "great dps bruisers do", but i've yet to see it being in the same category as a predator dps. You say monks need a nerf because they can tank ? A scout in defensive stance with an enchanter and dirge can tank as well.</P> <P>Now my experience with my monk :</P> <P>In groups where the healers didn't have experience with monks, i dropped dead quite often. In groups where i wasn't the MT, so i was going on "dps mode", i was constantly lagging far behind scouts and mages.</P> <P>One time someone actually said : "wow you are doing great dps" ( because i was stealing aggro ) was because i forgot my storm stance on :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Also a bit of comparison : a lvl 57 monk was killing lvl 50-53 gnolls in Living tombs ( i used to do the same when my assassin was lvl 54), and to be honest i was very disappointed in what i saw : while i used kill the gnolls in 3-4 blows ( or 1-2 when the right skills were up ), the monk was quite struggling to kill them, but then i saw him pull about 6 of them ( i was thinking : heh, he's a tank he can deal with them - so i decided not to interfere ) and by the time he killed them, he was on red health. Granted - he might of just had a bit of bad luck with that pull, and his gear was just treasured...but unless they the monks have awesome gear they don't stand out from the crowd by much ( except the look which alone should get them nerfed <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P> <P>Now you might say i play my assassin better than my monk and i'm way off track, but i've yet to see monks do amazing feats, or for that matter see scouts do them. You mostly hear about them coming from mages.</P> <P> </P> <P>Conclusion is : does anyone want a nerf? I don't think so. If 10 players can do amazing feats with their classes ( a healer soloing a raid mob, a scout killing a bunch of heroics, a brawler killing a raid mob 10 levels higher, a guardian parsing higher than a summoner, etc. ) that doesn't mean their whole archtype should be nerfed, it just means some people are very good at what they are doing, or they are very lucky. IF there is a problem with an archetype, you'd see all of them doing the same thing.</P>

[nobunaga_x]

<DIV>I didn't really read much here but i will go along with the idea we are not over powered.  We are the most versatile, but at a cost.  i can tank, but there are better tanks out there.  I can DPS, but there is better DPS out there.  I am the best at nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When a monk tanks there dps is cut in half because we miss twice as much.</DIV>

[Shankonia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Siberia275 wrote:<BR>Ryza,<BR><BR>    First off, all this talk about rangers and DPS is foolish in itself. Rangers as it stands right now are not up to par as far as a recovery from the proc change.<BR><BR>    Second, if you load up all the procs and the +DPS buffs on raids onto a monk, of course he's going to do a ton of damage. It's the same deal for beserkers, hell, you could throw vraksakin's club on a guardian, load him out with +haste, +dps and procs, and he'll do superb damage, trade off is he'll gain seirous aggro, not to mention loose the shield avoidance. If you do the same to a berserker on an AE fight he'll blow everyone away. Point is, if you place those same buffs on a scout, they are going to outdamage us, plus without fear of aggro. A monk left be, either tanking or in a bland DPS spot will not outdamage a scout simply because their arts do more damage than ours. An assassin, for example, is constanting chaining combat arts in sequence which do on average no less than 1000 damage.<BR><BR>    You claim that our DPS needs to be nerfed, because we tank so well, right? I'm not going to go into the raid tanking bit, I've done it, I know how it's done, the point is we have 1(one) group buff, and 1(one) single target avoidance buff. Guardians(Although disputed, I'm sure) have some pretty cool group buffs. Group intercedes, Group HP, Group Mitigation. We, on the other hand, have our DPS. <BR><BR>    Like Selch said, you can't come to the boards and complain about our DPS based on what you have seen. The other fighters in the same situation do the exact same thing(save guards) and have you seen what a paladin can do AE with the right AAs?<BR><BR>You seem to be so intent on being a tank, and doing nothing but tanking, Ryza, perhaps you should roll a guardian.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Syberia - I was thinking just what you said while reading this thread as planned on posting it once I was finished.  Thanks for saying it.  </P> <P>Ryza - Seriously.  I almost feel like you are calling for a Monk nerf just so we can then be "fixed" again and finally be right where you want us to be at the top of the Raid MT charts.  Please, for the sake of us all, go roll a Zerker or keep it to yourself.</P> <P>I have never once out DPS'd our only Ranger while raiding on both his parses or my own except the one time he forgot to equip his bow.</P> <P>As far you other monks saying our DPS is a bit overpowered, I imagine you say this because we can pull aggro so very easily.  From my own experience, if I was not in Defensive stance on a raid, I was going to grab it.  Same with our bruiser.  Luckily our raid MT recognized this and changed his AA's accordingly.  I can now fight in offensive stance and do my thing as I should.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Perfidiou]

<P>just giving you some numbers</P> <P>raid parse from Lab:</P> <P>Group Total 235857</P> <P>Highest Hit 70 Warlock:4413:void distortion</P> <P>70 Swashy Total Dam 58401: DPS 1168.0</P> <P>70 Monky (me) Total Dam 36219: DPS 724.4</P> <P>70 Ranja Total Dam 31894: DPS 637.9</P> <P>69 Brig Total Dam 28339: DPS 566.8</P> <P>70 Pally Total Dam 24139: DPS 482.8</P> <P>70 Guard (MT) Total Dam 18728: DPS 374.6</P> <P> </P> <P>that was a while back. rank 8 melee proc, inquis melee proc + some other dps buffs from my group.</P><p>Message Edited by Perfidious1 on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:49 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Savanja wrote:<BR>The dps on the brawlers is in exchange for the mit that the other tanks have. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>No it isn't.  Our avoidance is the trade-off for the mit that other tanks have.</FONT></P> <P>Our dps probably is too high in a lot of instances and could stand to be toned down.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True but then at the same time our avoidance should then count when tanking oranges right ?? id happily have lesser dps to be able to raid tank orange content as good as a guard wouldnt you ?

[Tadashi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>Well, a tank class competing with a dps class on the dps sector is just wrong and needs to be fixed asap. You can't deny that. <BR>If you want us to be halfway between tanks and scouts, then we should do half the dps of a scout and tank half as good as a warrior. Do you really want that?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>qfe.  we have decent tanking abilities considering we're not a true tank.  we have decent dps considering we're not a true dps class.  but to nerf either would be devastating.</P> <P>if you nerf monk dps, then we become useless in raids.  we're just a [Removed for Content] guardian/beserker.  and beserkers can rival us in dps and they are better tanks anyway.</P> <P>if you nerf monk avoidance, then we become a [Removed for Content] swashbuckler/ranger.  our ability to assist the dps classes and intercept damage for them or pull a mob off them is why they need us.  if you take away monk tanking ability, then our spot in raids should just go to a true dps class, because we can't match them in dps in the first place.</P>

[Shankonia]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True but then at the same time our avoidance should then count when tanking oranges right ?? <FONT color=#99ff00>id happily have lesser dps to be able to raid tank orange content as good as a guard wouldnt you ?<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No.

[Tadashi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shankonia wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True but then at the same time our avoidance should then count when tanking oranges right ?? <FONT color=#99ff00>id happily have lesser dps to be able to raid tank orange content as good as a guard wouldnt you ?<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>why would you need guardians at all then?

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tadashi wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shankonia wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True but then at the same time our avoidance should then count when tanking oranges right ?? <FONT color=#99ff00>id happily have lesser dps to be able to raid tank orange content as good as a guard wouldnt you ?<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>why would you need guardians at all then?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>May be his life does not pass in raids, may be he is a duo person or small groups?</P> <P>There might be tons of reason behind this. Hence "as good as guard" would never be, but from last months parses over heroic content, my being-hit ratio is 70%, wondering if avoidance value works opposite <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>