Gaige I disagree with you about some of these issues - often I guess.

[Devolux]

I am a very well geared t6 t7 raiding monk - I run around 7k hp unbuffed and 2500 mit with 55 + damage rating legendary t7 weps and all resist above 4k and over 7k with rsist gear on - most around 8k.  I know my tactics being a raid monk in EQ1 for 4 years and in EQ2 since it came out.  Just saying that so we know what part of the game we are talking about.OK - TankingAvoidance tanks need the following to be working correctly1.  Physical AE's to count under avoidance (they are mitigated - so should be avoidable)2.  Skin of Mountain line should be a self concentration buff for 300ish mit3.  Both short duration mit buffs need to be insta cast - and should have longer durations.4.  Avoidance vs. epic mobs/named mobs needs to be adjusted so we avoid them at the same rate we avoid similarly conned mobs.    REASON:  They hit harder - which is the difference between epics/named and other mobs.  We shouldn't lose our avoidance skill because they are scarier mobs.  With #1 and #4 in place we could actually tank as well as a t7 plate tank - or close.  The randomness of avoidance vs. the certainty of mit is still an issue - but we could tank as well non raid - which is what we are supposed to do.The main issue I have is you are a well respected monk who uses personal experience as a generalization for the class as a whole.Can I tank raid content - yes.  Do I tank raid content - yes in  pinch.  Do I tank raid content as well as a similarly geared similarly killed plate tank - NO!  Should I YES - or at least very close.The main issue - is do we currrently stack up well against a similarly geared/skilled plate tank.  The reasons we don't are mainly (or easily fixed by)  #1 and #4.   It makes no sense to  compare without  using a standardized scale.Worthless questions:1.  Do I tank better than a poorly geared unskilled plate tank - YUP2.  With the best gear in the game will I be able to tank most sitations - YupThe list goes on - The question that needs to be the focus of our boards is:Are we comparable to a plate tank - at equal skill and gear - as TANKS!  The answer is No.<div></div>

[zabor]

Yes, i agree.Gaige often emphasizes the fact that he indeed does tank raid mobs, and i believe him he does it good.But a guardian will always be better with similar equipement and skills on most raid encounters. There still is a gap between plate and brawler tanking.With the critical hits introduced in KoS brawlers are even more vulnerable to damage spikes.Brawlers still need a fix in tanking abilities, and i would gladly give up some of my dps and soloing abilities for a bit better tanking.

[Raage]

<div></div><div></div><p>For the most part, #'s out the window, the players know who gets hit and how hard based upon how well their groups do/ have done w/ Brawlers v. Platers. In Bonemire, and even BS, you will see "group LF PLATE tank..."</p><p>They don't want us to tank....And frankly, I wouldn't either. If I go into HoF, I want a Tin Can leading the way. At level 67, that place will murder a brawler. I got one shotted by a Skarize after drawing aggro from MT. -BLAM- 6900 pts....Game Over, wait for a rez.</p><p>It's not going to stop me from playing my Monk tho. The one thing about this game is that it is fluid. The pendulum swings (as does the nerf bat)...and that which is viewed as incorrect or unbalanced will prolly be addressed at some point. So my guess is in a few weeks we will be hearing about how the over-corrected Brawlers and made tanking TOO easy....Ok, we'll prolly never get to that, but I'm guessing (hoping) that we* will be a viable option for tanking HoF at some point.</p><p> </p><p>* WE = Non-Raiding, skilled players w/ good gear. I absolutely do not hold anything against the raiders of the world. If I could play more often I would. And if I did, I would think I deserve access to and/or have earned better stuff. But the diff between Raid gear and real good gear shouldn't stop you from doing what your class was meant to do.</p><p>edited spellling....as usual.</p><p>Message Edited by Raage on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:54 PM</span></p>

[zabor]

If i understood devolux correctly, this thread is about raiding. group performance is uninteresting.

[Code2501]

<div></div>Some of the issues are the same though, eg. mob abilities to deal physical damage that is unavoidable usng avoidance yet mitigated with armor.

[selch]

<div>Agree on critical hits & mt vs avoidance issue.</div><div> </div><div>I don't raid much (not my league either) but seeing very same even from blue heroics kinda ticks me off.</div><div> </div>

[Cyngii]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:If i understood devolux correctly, this thread is about raiding. group performance is uninteresting.<hr></blockquote><p>Well with the exception of Halls of Fate, I don't think there are too many complaints when it comes to single group performance. </p><p>I agree with the OP about the unavoidable attacks that just chew us up since we're at a big MIT disadvantage.  I've tanked up to epic x2 in Temple of Scale and oh it was fun.  It felt good having over 10k hp but watching it get chewed up 4k at a time was not fun and i'll tell you what... even though the majority of the mobs are blue I didn't avoid that many attacks and those that i did were autoattack hits (this includes having a dirge in group and me being around 78% avoidance).  Eventually one of our guardians logged in and tanked the same mobs with his HP barely moving thus taking a stressful every fight possibly being a wipe to a thoughtless march around the zone even doing x4 content with 14 people.  I guess what i'm trying to say is yeah we can do it, but guardians do it so much easier that it's an eye opener.  Somewhere along the line the number of pallys and SKs i see have dropped to about 0 it seems so haven't grouped with either of them in a long time... how do they fair compared to brawlers or guardians?  My question being is mitigation being the fix all or is it more of a guardian issue? </p>

[Code2501]

<div></div><p>We all know that avoidance effectiveness is halved or worse against epics, so i think its clearly a mitigation bias. The deal is whilst avoidance has reduced effectiveness, mitigation values remain the same. So yes, the epic is doing more damage against the mit tanks due to an increase in overall damage, however it seems that the gimping of avoidance vs epics means we get hit almost as often but for much much more.</p><p>To be frank though, I doubt the Devs will fix this issue unless its put under their nose with a neon sign pointing out the reason they smell something awfull. (e.g. parses of dmg taken whilst tanking by comparably lvled/geared/skilled fighter subclasses against many many different mobs)</p><p> </p>

[Reposa]

I both agree, and disagree with you.In DoF we were given a lot of oppurtunity to tank, but it still always came down to Warriors..  I tanked every single mob in DoF exept for the Blackqueen (my magic sucked hardcore back then), Djinn Master, and the Pedestal dragons.  I tanked every name in PPR, Sunchild, PoF Barakah (we never had Siyamak spawn on our server), and anything else you could possibly think of, yet.. it seems in KoS I am barely tanking anything.. why?Combat Arts OWN US.  Sure, I've tanked trash and some adds in name encounters in Vyemms, but nowhere near as efficient as a Guardian.  Debilitate takes us to 0 mitigation.. it takes a Guardian to 1500-2k.. then throw in a Hammerfist, and it hits us for 10k.. dead monk.This expansion is a Warrior expansion, no doubt.  Sure, we have a mob to tank, one of the Princes, but only because we have to tank it.. oh, and I guess Gorenaire to an extent..Either way, our tanking skills haven't diminished, it's just that mobs now spam huge CA's that just eat through our already weak mitigation.As for Spirit Like Mountain and Mountain Stance.. The cast time is way to long, yes.. 1 second is WAY too long.. by the time I cast Mountain stance on a raid, I have already lost agro.  .5 or Insta cast would own.  I also think SLM should be a snare, similiar to guardian emergency buffs, and MS should be the root.Other than that I think we're fine, it's just that KoS is catored to a Warrior so much more than a Brawler.<div></div>

[Kronadin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>zaboron wrote:Brawlers still need a fix in tanking abilities, and i would gladly give up some of my dps and soloing abilities for a bit better tanking.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>No bloody way in hell! I don't understand all you "I need to tank raid mobs" monks anyway. If your main concern was simply to tank raid mobs, then why didn't you all roll a plate tank? As we stand now, we are much more versatile than any other plate tank class, which is the reason why I (and I suppose many others) chose to play a monk. AND we are still ABLE to tank group AND raid content, albeit not quite as good as a plate tank. Sooooo, what is there to fix/complain about/nag/bla bla? Nothing! This is called "balance", which should not be confused with "equality". I don't want to have the same skills and purpose as any other class in the game.</p><p>Edit: I'm not saying that everything is perfect and nothing should be changed, just trying to explain the general standpoint.</p><p>Message Edited by Kronadin on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p>

[Gungo]

<div></div><div>IMHO they just need to add the Mitigation AA back into the AA tree (preferably replace defense if it does not go beyond the 510 skill cap) as well as have physical combat arts/spells avoidable</div>

[Redlan]

<div>I agree they need to correct the avoidance issue when it comes to high end heroics and raid mobs. AoE melle should be subject to avoidance check. I did the exact same thing in ToS 2 nights ago, was tanking epic x2 mobs with 9 man raid to implant a spotter while plate tank was ld. I saw that noticable gap between how fast my hp went down and how fast his did. Guardians will always reign supreme as tanks even though they are about the whiniest bunch of tin men I've ever seen(imho pallies and SKs have more of a right to complain). They get more hp buffs and more taunts. They rarely get a grp as dps. That's still one advantage we have over them. We can get group as tanks or as dps or evern pullers. I refuse to let anyone except me tank vault grp even in a full guild grp. I can tank them just fine, seemingly better than the plate actually and until guardians get fd to abort adds they will suck in there as a general rule, with few exceptions every tank I seen pulling vaults was a disaster even though it's not a hard place to pull.</div><div>What I REALLY would like to see is an increase to our grp haste. 20% or less really don't cut it anymore.</div>

[Shankonia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kronadin wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>zaboron wrote:Brawlers still need a fix in tanking abilities, and i would gladly give up some of my dps and soloing abilities for a bit better tanking.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>No bloody way in hell! I don't understand all you "I need to tank raid mobs" monks anyway. If your main concern was simply to tank raid mobs, then why didn't you all roll a plate tank? As we stand now, we are much more versatile than any other plate tank class, which is the reason why I (and I suppose many others) chose to play a monk. AND we are still ABLE to tank group AND raid content, albeit not quite as good as a plate tank. Sooooo, what is there to fix/complain about/nag/bla bla? Nothing! This is called "balance", which should not be confused with "equality". I don't want to have the same skills and purpose as any other class in the game.</p><p>Edit: I'm not saying that everything is perfect and nothing should be changed, just trying to explain the general standpoint.</p><p>Message Edited by Kronadin on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Couldn't have said it any better myself.

[zabor]

<blockquote><hr>Kronadin wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>zaboron wrote:Brawlers still need a fix in tanking abilities, and i would gladly give up some of my dps and soloing abilities for a bit better tanking.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>No bloody way in hell! I don't understand all you "I need to tank raid mobs" monks anyway. If your main concern was simply to tank raid mobs, then why didn't you all roll a plate tank? As we stand now, we are much more versatile than any other plate tank class, which is the reason why I (and I suppose many others) chose to play a monk. AND we are still ABLE to tank group AND raid content, albeit not quite as good as a plate tank. Sooooo, what is there to fix/complain about/nag/bla bla? Nothing! This is called "balance", which should not be confused with "equality". I don't want to have the same skills and purpose as any other class in the game.</p><p>Edit: I'm not saying that everything is perfect and nothing should be changed, just trying to explain the general standpoint.</p><p>Message Edited by Kronadin on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Cant see any balance when Tank A tanks better than Tank B.

[Asheng]

It will be a sacrifice though. If we tank as well as guardians, we won't have our solo ability or dps ability. I for one, don't want to see that happen.People are too cought up on all fighters should be able to tank everything all the time equally.  If thats the case, why have multiple classes?We can do so much stuff that the guardian/plate tanks can't, out side of tank one type of mob.<div></div>

[Ai064]

<div></div><p>Same here.  I'd much rather not raid tank and keep my solo ability and versatility.  This came up in the monk channel last week.  Monks are not, or SHOULD NOT, be defined by one person's view on what they should be.  You have a wide spectrum of opinions about our class and I say that's great.  But person A's opinion isn't automatically correct for person B. </p><p>I enjoy our ability to solo, cure and heal ourselves, offtank (main tank as well) and dps.  If we can't "raid tank" I'm fine with that.  If I'd wanted to be a main tank for a raiding guild I'd have stuck with my guardian who is my first ever eq2 character.  Instead he's lvl 36 still and my monk is 67. </p>

[zabor]

well there is a difference between what you want a monk to be and what the devs said a monk should be.

[Asheng]

problem is, I don't think the devs are really sure what they want monks/bruisers to be either.<div></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Devolux wrote:I am a very well geared t6 t7 raiding monk - I run around 7k hp unbuffed and 2500 mit with 55 + damage rating legendary t7 weps and all resist above 4k and over 7k with rsist gear on - most around 8k.  I know my tactics being a raid monk in EQ1 for 4 years and in EQ2 since it came out.  Just saying that so we know what part of the game we are talking about.OK - TankingAvoidance tanks need the following to be working correctly1.  Physical AE's to count under avoidance (they are mitigated - so should be avoidable)2.  Skin of Mountain line should be a self concentration buff for 300ish mit <font color="#ffff00">- I don't agree, although I think it should be .5 cast.</font>3.  Both short duration mit buffs need to be insta cast - and should have longer durations.  <font color="#ffff00">Insta cast yes or .5, but the duration is fine.</font>4.  Avoidance vs. epic mobs/named mobs needs to be adjusted so we avoid them at the same rate we avoid similarly conned mobs.    REASON:  They hit harder - which is the difference between epics/named and other mobs.  We shouldn't lose our avoidance skill because they are scarier mobs.  With #1 and #4 in place we could actually tank as well as a t7 plate tank - or close.  The randomness of avoidance vs. the certainty of mit is still an issue - but we could tank as well non raid - which is what we are supposed to do.  <font color="#ffff00">I don't agree here either, I think named and epics getting a +to-hit makes sense.</font>The main issue I have is you are a well respected monk who uses personal experience as a generalization for the class as a whole.  <font color="#ffff00">You're allowed to have all the issues you want with me, although I suppose a pm would be better than a topic addressed to me.  At any rate I use my personal experience as proof that the monk class is capable of doing the things I say it can do.  Period.  Its no more or less valid than any other monk doing the same.  If a monk in all handcrafted tries to tank HoF at 65 and dies in one shot and posts about it are we supposed to take that as fact for every monk?  No.  Just the same if I say I can solo/tank (insert mob here) it doesn't mean every monk can do it, it means the class is capable of it.  When SOE goes to balance, they balance with a median average in mind.  Not every monk will be a capable raid tank.  That is the truth.  I never asked for exact equal tanking, I asked for interchangeability - which is what we have.</font>Can I tank raid content - yes.  Do I tank raid content - yes in  pinch.  Do I tank raid content as well as a similarly geared similarly killed plate tank - NO!  Should I YES - or at least very close.  <font color="#ffff00">No, you shouldn't.  This is an ideal that came up recently that was never argued for back in the days of pre-LU13.  I and others argued for INTERCHANGEABILITY.  Not for total EQUALITY.  We're avoidance... they're mitigation, there will never be total equality.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Some of you who may be new to the game or new to the monk class obviously do not understand how it used to be.  It used to be that if you went up agaisnt a high con heroic or an epic (after the agility nerf and intial avoidance changes) you died.  Period.  You simply died.  I don't care if you had the best gear in the world and an awesome group/raid.  If you pulled aggro from Nagalik at lvl 50 you died.  Period the end, no discussion.  We *could not* even attempt to tank an epic mob, period.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Those days have changed.  I tanked almost every mob in DoF (except Pedestal and DMP).  If we were raiding Godking Anuk and our guardian went down I could get aggro and TANK THE MOB until the guardian was revived and rebuffed or the mob died.  A lvl 65+++ x4 was tankable from start to finish by a monk (and an orange con epic no less).</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">This is called interchangeable and its what we fought so many months for.  We do not have to tank as well, mitigate as well, take less heals than a similiarly geared plate tank - that wouldn't be balanced.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">If you look at our solo ability and our dps we do have an edge, there is a gap there between us and plate tanks.  That gap should be similiar to the tanking gap.  Yes, there should be a gap there.  The difference with my mentality is the gap shouldn't be insurmountable.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">If a guardian can tank it, a monk can tank it - with perhaps a few exceptions.  That is called interchangeability.  </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">We went from the impossibility to even consider raid tanking as monks to adequate and successful raid tanks as monks.  That's a big change.</font>The main issue - is do we currrently stack up well against a similarly geared/skilled plate tank.  The reasons we don't are mainly (or easily fixed by)  #1 and #4.   It makes no sense to  compare without  using a standardized scale.  <font color="#ffff00">We're not mitigation tanks, so adding mitigation to us is a bandaid, not a fix.  Its also silly.</font>Worthless questions:1.  Do I tank better than a poorly geared unskilled plate tank - YUP2.  With the best gear in the game will I be able to tank most sitations - YupThe list goes on - The question that needs to be the focus of our boards is:Are we comparable to a plate tank - at equal skill and gear - as TANKS!  The answer is No.  <font color="#ffff00">Its the wrong question you're asking, that's your problem.</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[Rrawl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:well there is a difference between what you want a monk to be and what the devs said a monk should be.<hr></blockquote>And both are really moot points... as what we really are and can do doesn't match up to either... But through all the changes, nerfs, buffs, renerfs... whatever, one thing remains the same. We're [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sexy.

[Code2501]

<div></div><div></div><p></p><hr>Interchangability is fine Gage, but when a Guard or zerker can do it better, much much better, then in the eyes of the raid leader, and everyone else in the raid, there really is no choice to make.<p>Personally I dont see why SoE can't implement the tanking classes so we all are able to tank with less variance in ability. It does not mean we all become one class because we tank in different ways, but honestly, the only reason we cant tank as well as warriors and perhaps crusaders is because SoE have made some biased (imo dumb and unballanced) choises when designing mob content. The people designing the mobs are not considering making content for both avoidance and mitigation tanks, not even in a 1:2 ratio, its more like there designing the mobs for mitigation tanks then someones is going back and changing 1 or 2 mobs in 10 so there a bit more geared towards avoidance tanks.</p><p>If were not ment to tank some content as easily as mitigation tanks fine... but at least include a reasonable amount of content that we tank better than mitigation tanks to ballance the tanking opportunities... oh, and dont make it so whole zones which are highly important for many quests etc have a preferential for one tank over another.. some mobs in the zone maybe, but not whole zones.</p><p> </p><p>And regarding raid tanking Vs group tanking Vs soloing.. I dont see why there should be a compramise, there all different playstyles and should be independantly enjoyable. Personaly I enjoy each of them, but in t7 raiding I fell like the training wheel that is no longer needed, heck i can't even tsunami pull mobs for the MT anymore.</p><p></p><hr><p>Gaige:</p><p><font color="#ffff00">We're not mitigation tanks, so adding mitigation to us is a bandaid, not a fix.  Its also silly.</font></p><p></p><hr><p>I agree with you on that Gaige, I think what they really need to do is address the way they develop biased content. Physical hits that ignore avoidance is broken imo. There are NO mobs that ignore mitigation but still factor avoidance in. Debilitate and similar arts are curable, two shot deaths are not.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Code2501 on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:22 PM</span></p>

[Tappen]

I think the OP has his analysis correct, but count me in the "I don't care about tanking raid mobs, I rolled a monk to be better at soloing than a plate tank, but still able to tank for a group" camp.  Basically I think we got a good trade-off and making all fighters tank raid mobs equally well just seems like it's dumbing down the game by making all subsclasses pretty much the same within archtypes.<div></div>

[Mala-Shea]

<div></div><p>Well, I for the most part agree with the op on a lot of his points. And I base alot of my opinions on experience as well. I have tanked a ton of raid mobs (at least T6). Sometimes (not very often) even better than our guard. In our first run through PPR, we pulled Gumrod, he ripped our Guard a new one, I threw up shields and grabbed him and tanked him til dead. Yes, we can tank raid material...in T6.</p><p>However, T7 seems quite different. I was tanking the Monk Prince (lvl 74 x4 epic) and had my avoidance buffed to 78%, mit at about 3600 and 12k hp. I am in very good T6/T7 Legendary/Fabled gear. Every pull my health looked like an electro-cardiagram of a fat man having a heart attack. After a few attempts, I went through the logs and took note of the fact that I did not parry, deflect, block even ONE attack...but hey...I'm a monk...I avoid...that brings at least some parity to my lack of physical mitigation, right? Not against Lvl 74 yellow con thats for sure. Basically, I was a punching bag that was gentler on the mobs hands. Yay.</p><p>And now, with aa choices a gaurdian can equip a buckler, give up 700 mit (off a raid buffed well geared gaurd, that knocks him down to 6-7K, poor guy) and have 90% avoidance. I'm not whining for a gaurd nerf, but at least give us the advantage of avoidance when it comes to tanking. Let me rephrase that....true avoidance...not the kind that is entirely con-based. The + to hit on yellow con raid mobs is ridiculous. Should they hit you more? Sure. Everytime? /shrug ...back to dps.</p><p>Slapp</p><p>70 Monk</p><p>Everfrost</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Mala-Shea wrote:<div></div><p>And now, with aa choices a gaurdian can equip a buckler, give up 700 mit (off a raid buffed well geared gaurd, that knocks him down to 6-7K, poor guy) and have 90% avoidance.</p><hr></blockquote><p>That was corrected awhile ago <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:50 PM</span></p>

[Code2501]

<div></div><p></p><hr>Gaige:<p>They nerfed that awhile ago.</p><p></p><hr><p> </p><p>You clearly ment to say they fixed that a while ago, it was afterall a bug.</p>

[-UGG-Andy]

<div></div><p>well,myself i rolled a monk at launch,going by the manuals description that all fighters=tanks,and picking monk soley cos i liked the martial arts flavor.Im sick of ppl telling me i should have rolled plate to tank.If you guys wanted to do dps and tank in a pinch,take a look at some scouts-that what the swash was designed for from day one,its been repeadatley stated we are meant to be tanks.</p><p>I simply want to compete on the group tanking and raid tanking-atm sure you can tank things like HoF-if the stars are in the correct position,your gear is very good,your AA's are just right,and your group makeup has the exact right classes,and know what they are doing,but really,chances are some scouts could do the same thing.</p><p>Plate tanks can tank anything we can,better,and with lower quality of gear and less specific group makeups.A plate tank in legendary gear aqquired from single group content can get 70-80% mitigation easily,50% avoidance,4-6k resists.Those stats are only going to improve as better gear is found,and more AA's used.Of course,even if you had 90% avoidance in an average group its not anywhere near effective as mitigation like that,even without taking into consideration the abilities being used that ignore avoidance.If an equal number of mobs had CA's and autoattacks that ignored mit and could only be avoided,plate tanks would then be in the same situation as us,and up in arms.</p><p>Please forgive any sarcasm in this post,its early in the morning and im a bit miffed about the whole tanking thing at the moment:smileyindifferent:</p>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ashengur wrote:It will be a sacrifice though. If we tank as well as guardians, we won't have our solo ability or dps ability. I for one, don't want to see that happen.People are too cought up on all fighters should be able to tank everything all the time equally.  If thats the case, why have multiple classes?We can do so much stuff that the guardian/plate tanks can't, out side of tank one type of mob.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Just take a look at druids, they heal better than clerics (means they do the primary task better) and they have massively greater DPS. Do you see them getting nerfed? No. So, it really fits to SOEs vision to make brawlers even better tanks than plate class without taking any DPS or soloability from us. Similar things hava happened before.</span><div></div>

[-UGG-Andy]

<div></div><p>Its been said that we sacrifice taunt ability for DPS,guards etc have many more methods of aggro control than us.If you get 3 encounters its a struggle to hold them,but other classes have stuff like group hate transfers,more AOE's...</p><p>Just look at our lineup to hold aggro;</p><p>1 single target taunt</p><p>1 hate proc stance</p><p>1 group taunt</p><p>1 aoe</p><p>1 dragonbreath</p><p>2 of those things ain't even taunts,and we are obviously not too well equipped to handle many groups,although single target aggro is some of the best in the game.</p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><div>Woot a whole thread dedicated to gaige !! hehe .. however OP I have to agree with Gaige on his points , Guardians are simply put meant to be Raid Tank , why .. they just do it better because that big beefy armour they wear is going to take a big bashing where as us in our leather can parry about and then get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] slapped back to DoF :smileyvery-happy:, i agree that a monk/brusier can tank the mobs but we aint gonna do it as easy as a guardian , they may come here [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and complain how broken they are blah blah blah but do they ever have trouble getting a group erm no.</div><div> </div><div>Fact is gaige is spot on when he says they are mitigation and we are aviodance , we had our fix and are now able to tank  problem is people now want more but at what cost ? loss of dps - no thanks i dont want to be a guardian , if people want to MT a Raid roll a guard but if ppl want a  challenge, a bit of diversity and a whole lotta fun the roll a brawler.</div><div> </div><div>Maybe next Exp Pack is geared to aviodance tanking and guardians get one shotted .... we can hope</div><div> </div>

[selch]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Out of all questions, I think everyone here aggrees that, against Combat Arts we are paper.  Let alone raid (which you can not avoid too much nor can stun), group encounters even has been problem with that while you can only stun only one target a time and can't rest of group while mitigation clearly absorbs any hit, avoidance can't avoid CA's.</div><div> </div><div>Avoidance and AGI effect over avoidance should be re-checked in code (hence from armor settings designed for monks, we can see AGI is meant to be given to brawlers)</div><div> </div><div>IMO, we are not meant to be super tanks, may be got hit more when mob hits landed. We have lesser taunt or crowd control (which is out of our league) however, problem starts if mob can land a hit or not.</div><div> </div><div>So even if scouts having better mitigation due to chain + same avoidance, question would be if we were really tanks or not. As development stated all fighters are tanks, then question should be asked, why a scout class can have same avoidance and better mitigation.</div><div> </div><div>Either our mitigation CA's, AA's should be improved imo and avoidance should be rechecked against CA's. If I can see a mob rising high in slow motion, why it has 100% chance to hit me while out of nowhere auto-attacks have 50%.</div><div> </div><div>PS: I don't see any reason guardians to whine calling us "pyjama tanks" , hence there is no price difference between shiney metal [Removed for Content] and our pyjamas. We clearly do not ask about using plate mitigation, nor get hit same with plates when hit, but surely we want what is meant us to have avoidance.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:34 AM</span></p>

[Asheng]

give us a second chance to take reduced dmg based on our avoidance, Like we avoid a direct hit, but get catch a piece of the hit.So we would have1. Mitgated only attack2. Completely Avoided attack3. Half avoided, then mitigated the remaining dmg attack.Ie, we weren't quite quick enough, so we still go popped, just not by the main brunt of the attack. Imagine getting kicked in the chest, but turning at the last moment, and it being a glancing blow off your arm or somthing.<div></div>

[Sslarrga]

<div></div><div></div><p>We don't HAVE to give up DPS for better raid tanking ability.</p><p>A guardian doing the buckler line (waaaah I want to use a tower shield even when DPSing) loses a very minimal amount of avoidance and gains roughly double his normal DPS bring him pretty much on par with Monks.  Beserkers properly AA'd just wipe the floor with us.</p><p>Last raid a guardian with half the DPS buffs and procs than I had pulled 950-1k dps.  With more +dps buffs and more proc buffs I was able to eek him out at around 1.2k dps.</p><p>In groups highest DPS parse goes to whichever of us has the +dps and proc buffs.  Sometimes it's the guardian around 800-1k dps sometimes it's me around 800-1k dps.</p><p>However, the PROBLEM is.</p><p>Mit tanks have roughly double the Mitigation (that's fine) and roughly the same avoidance fully buffed (that's not so fine).</p><p>Additionally the vast majority of BIG hits completely ignore avoidance and instead use MITIGATION for AVOIDANCE (resists) purposes.  Not only that, but if the hit goes through which it usually does on a Monk since our mitigation is lower thus our AVOIDANCE IS LOWER, it doesn't get mitigated nearly as much as a mitigation tank.</p><p>That is very very wrong.  When a Mitigation Tank has a signifcantly better chance to AVOID (through mitigation resists) the very hits brawlers MOST need to avoid.</p><p>Of course, the other end of the spectrum which doesn't exists is hits that ignore mitigation and isntead use avoidance values to mitigate the damage.  Sounds wrong doesn't it?  Then so should the scenario above which is all too common in HoF and in Raid Content.</p><p>The fix isn't to load us up with mitigation to equal Mitigation tanks.</p><p>The first steps in the right direction would be.</p><p>1.  Use avoidance for what it's supposed to be used for.  Avoiding hits that would otherwise kill us.  No more of using Mitigation as the basis for avoiding (through resists) hits that ignore avoidance.</p><p>2.  Scale warrior avoidance to mitigation in a similar way that our mitigation is scaled to our avoidance.  I'm sure when SoE designs armor they have a Target Mitigation value they work with.  That's great to make sure Plate tanks mitigation more than Leather tanks etc.  Use the same bloody formula for Avoidance.  I'm sick of seeing myself raid buffed for a raid with 75-79% avoidance while our PLATE tank is raid buffed to 69-71% avoidance.  For all intents and purposes that is the same avoidance.  Yet they have almost twice as much mitigation.</p><p>Yes Gaige, it is now "possible" to tank "some" of the stuff Guardians can.  However, I would hardly call it "interchangeability" at this point considering we aren't even close to their Tanking ability, yet they can get close to our DPS ability.</p><p>Choosing DPS friendly paths both Guardians and Monks can attain roughly similar DPS.  Assuming of course, Guardians come off their high horse and actually choose the DPS that very few of them want to do.  And the proceed to complain that their DPS sucks when SoE gave them an absolutely incredible DPS line to choose from.</p><p>Choosing Tanking friendly paths the Guardians superior tanking abilities are enhanced by a greater degree than is our tanking abilities.</p><p>So, by choosing the right AAs a Guardian can close the gap in DPS.  By choosing the right tanking AAs we cannot close the gap with Guardians and in fact the gap grows even larger.</p><p>THAT is a problem.  At least in my eyes.  I respect your abilities and you've made me rethink some things.  However, I have to disagree with you that we are currently "interchangeable."</p><p>Regards,</p><p>Croaker</p><p>Message Edited by Sslarrga on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:18 PM</span></p>

[Devolux]

Gaige let me first add that this was not a personal shot - or else I would have PM'd it to you.  More of what I was intending was to shed some light on the information many monks are taking as the gospel according to Gaige and Ledbetter.   Don't get me wrong you 2 are great monks and long with a handful of other represent us very well on the boards.I have been playing a monk since day 1 - pre LU13 - shoot pre LU2.   I know how poor our tanking was - and conversly how amazing our dps was.  I think we have improved - but there is still room for more.I will parse for a few weeks and get some conclusive data - which will focus this discussion. One Question:If you think that epics should have a to hit bonus - should they also have some sort of strike through to equally effect plate tanks?ALSO:I have never asked for trading current abilities for better tanking.I think mit should be an AA line - Avoidance is one for Plate tanks - no brainer!All physical attacks should be subject to avoidance.Also - the to hit bonus on raid avoidance is too high.  Whether it should exist or not is a topic up for debate - but currently it is too high - period.<div></div>

[selch]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I believe problem lies behind Gaige is being compared to AvarageJoe on another class.</p><p>Every class has pluses and minuses. I believe Gaige might be one of most serious players that knows own class. However, if Gaige do something, it becomes like "All Monks do that" and Avarage Joe from another class asks for balance and gets it according to themselves. So Gaige's playstyle should be compared to most serious players of other classes to a degree, not like that troll come from Guardian boards here every now and then.</p><p>I posted a link yesterday, plate whining why their avoidance not over 60% even total sum at 79.2%. That made me laugh actually. Mitigation + Avoidance of that degree. I could not see 60% even with my Adept III defensive stance as solo, let alone their plate mitigation.</p><p>Currently L57, if a L55 non-named can hit me 1200 crushing damage while I'm in Tsunami (yes, you have read right), there has to be serious problem in this avoidance.</p><p>For example, I'm an avarage Monk, usually play for fun and with some strategies, not with maths. Full Legendary Gear (actually more than avarage that can be said) and I can no way tank like Gaige, not even dream of it. However, I can't even tank a white heroic or named with encounter in a group or very barely. Solo, 8 level above green no-named heroics can beat me if I'm not careful.  So I know I'm not alone in Norrath so Avarage Joe of Guardian class same with me too.  I suffer from spikes, CA's, mitigation. Then Gaige comes and says : "Legendary crafted Gear overpowered", pardon? Oh yes, for his knowledge and his maths, his tactics, yeah..  Not for me.. But seriously that kind of words are listened by developers. But Avarage Joe of a plate class does not got hit by that balance problem.</p><p>My English is not good, but seriously, they need to stop comparing best players of monks to avarage players of another class. </p><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:19 PM</span></p>