Attitude towards Monks?

[KabsReds]

<img src="http://www.clan-ts.co.uk/eq2/nodps.GIF">Was just curious if you get the same sort of stuff on your servers?The same chap (the names have been nerfed to protect the innocent) told me the week before that a 56 paladin would make a better tank than me....Any similar experiences from you chaps?For the record the chap in question was a 59 assassin looking for a scaleborn group.<div></div>

[selch]

<div>Well, I'm a bit displeased number of monks I see around me lately to be honest. I was leveling my shaman around Antonica, I see hordes of Gi's in every zone. Believe me just in Blackburrow, there was 11 monks out of 24 people. Ofcourse probably first reason is to have Gi as most fashionable outfit on character select.</div><div> </div><div>But turning to that point, hard to give point to that attitude, but from his previous experiences, some monks might have been problem for this guy in question and probably hard to heal when agility turns its back to us.</div><div> </div><div>Well, he might just hate monk class, like I hate conjourors or pet classes.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Anjin]

<div></div><div>Considering Monks give very handy dps, can offtank and give a haste buff that would be very handy for him, I would say it was his loss, not yours.  As far as DPS is concerned, Monks are far from being ineffectual.</div><div> </div><div>I tend to group within my guild and they have no problems with either myself or one of the other guild brawlers types tanking unless group/area aggro is vital (and an enchanter ain't around).  As we have a few tank types within the guild we do tend to have plates tanking purely so that brawlers can concentrate on DPS, but that certainly ain't always the case.</div><div> </div><div>So basically, don't get too fussed about it!</div><div> </div><div>Anjin</div>

[nobunaga_x]

<div></div>I had a similar issue the other day.  I was in a KoS group and are berserker tank was just sucking bad.  So the healer left, we got a new healer and I said I would tank for a bit.  I got some resistance from the healer, but when I tanked and no one was dying the resistance stopped lol.

[shaolen]

<div></div>Some people are misinformed on what we can do, or are simply idiots.  Next time someone doubts your DPS ask them to duel you so you can demonstrate it for them.

[trin ka]

<div></div>I have a 39 monk and have no issues being a tank. Over the last few nights I have been XP grouping in POF with a bruiser as the MT. I know monks and bruisers are different classes but he has done a fantastic job. Actually, last night , on single target mobs, the Bruiser was out dmg'ing 2 wizzys and a warlock. Of course when we got to groups, my warlocks devestation was the key. As long as you have a good healer and everyone is on your target...monks are great tanks.

[Pari]

<div></div><p>I had a similar conversation yesterday. Some people where looking for a tank and dps. I told them I can tank and do pretty decent dps. They refused because they rather waited for a real tank????? The group where lvl 58-62.</p><p> </p>

[Lindhorst]

When I'm DPS in a group, it really shines through in named mobs with a ton of HP. Out dmg'd everybody in group in a fight that took about 4 minutes. Just make sure when you DPS you got everything going for you, all the self haste and offensive stances up.This is not to say that I can't tank. Yeah group taunt isn't great but you can work with it. Make sure you have taunt stance up. People are prejudiced against monks usually, believing they're more of a jack of all trades instead of specializing in one thing when in fact we specialize in two things (though if push comes to shove we are tanks).LindhorstEverfrost<div></div>

[Dfoley3]

<div></div><div>well tanking is great but the thread was about dps.</div><div> </div><div>Yes, monks are sub par dps.  We CAN do nice dps IF we have the gear, the spells, and the talent, but sadly this is hardly the majority case.  From a prospective of a raid monk, ill be the first to admit that that average joe monk does about half my dps, and in a typical exp group, this AJM would be more suited to tanking then filling the roll of a dps.</div><div> </div><div>As far as dueling goes, pwning a mage with no mitigation hardly proves you can dps.  Go duel a mitg tank and see how uber ur dps is.  You may win from stuns and utility, but it wont be your 40 dmg hits with t6 fabled weapons.  </div><div> </div><div>Parses speak worlds and as far as im concerned are the only viable method of judging peoples dps.   As far as the average joe: Assassins and rangers warlocks crank out about 800dps per heroic, wizies about 750 if they have their marque.   Conj/necro can generate up to 800 on avg with dps pets, about 500-600 with tank pets.   The avg monk is gonna do about 300-350 dps.</div><div> </div><div><strong>In short its like this,</strong></div><div>If a group already has 2-3 t1/t2 dps, then yes a monk is an acceptable addition to a group who needs a dps class because the overal dps of the group is generaly accepted as being high enough to kill most mobs and any additional dps just adds icing.  </div><div> </div><div>If a group has a few t3-4 dps (fighters, bards, coercers etc the support classes)  and they need someone for the last spot, then no a monk prolly wont cut it because its just adding another lower teir dps to the equation, which in whole makes a largely ineffective group that might be capable of killing stuff, but is the majority case in which a monk will be turned down for "not being a dps".</div>

[Stryyfe]

<div>I agree, although monks should be a bit higher on the DPS spectrum.  The proc change hurt us for about 1000 damage per fight on average... nothing major, but a factor.  Can sometimes parse up to 25-50 dps more with old system.</div><div> </div><div>But yes, on a normal occassion, grouping killing 67^^^ heroics at level 62, I parsed about 320-360.  And I only have one Main CA master.  Should be doing around 400-450 or even 500+ on an even leveled mob with good stats/skill levels. And we can out DPS rangers now, or are even, which is nice to see that we are beginning to level out the playing field... I know it can be labled as not fair to many... but bottom line is... It makes monks more needed and useful, to not take the ranger over the monk for DPS groups now. Thats one upside for us!</div>

[Rahs]

<div></div><div>I solo a great deal and enjoy it. But when I want to group I have no problem getting a group. </div><div> </div><div>Tanking:</div><div>I have only had one tank tell me Monks were not as good of tanks as others - that was another Monk (I wasnt to impressed with him anyway). My personal experience is I am a very good tank and have never had a problem keeping aggro as long as the high dps members don't go crazy. Even then its hard to get aggro off me. If they do, 99.9% of the time I have no problem getting it back quick. From a healing point of view it stands to reason we will be a healthier (less close calls) grouping with a Mystic but I have grouped with all types of healers and they all do equally well as long as they understand how to play their class.</div><div> </div><div>DPS:</div><div>I was parsed the other night for the first time so I have no base line to compare my numbers against. It was a well balanced group (Pally, Monk (me), Zerker, Ranger, and Templar). We were at Cazic Thule doing yellow Triple ups. My dps numbers were running 200-250 on average, the Ranger was 350-450 and the Pally was running 100-150 - but he was tanking. Anyway, no issues except my dps can sometimes take aggro alone without taunting. That is the only thing Monks should worry about when off tanking - Solution: FD when you get aggro to let the Tank get it back.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway, I had a 52 Monk in EQ1 (I do miss FD pulling) and Rahsen is up to 48 now and is my Main. Monks are a good balanced character that are good at soloing and grouping.</div><div> </div>

[Rrawl]

<div>   If you're after pickup groups, start your own. You tank, add one or two healers and some dps and you're set.</div><div>We dps well, but we tank so much better, especially at the heroic encounter xp group level.</div><div>One of my guildmates is a guardian, and we often continue to play later in the night then our guild's healers and dps so we have to form pickup groups. I often get some funny looks or comments when we tell them that I'm main tanking and he's off tanking, but by the end of the session if I hear anything it's : "Wow, you're a really good tank."</div><div> </div><div>  Don't fret folks who got the wrong idea about Monks, correct their opinions by showing them the error of their ways.</div>

[shaolen]

<blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div>Yes, monks are sub par dps.  We CAN do nice dps IF we have the gear, the spells, and the talent, but sadly this is hardly the majority case.  From a prospective of a raid monk, ill be the first to admit that that average joe monk does about half my dps, and in a typical exp group, this AJM would be more suited to tanking then filling the roll of a dps.</div><div><div> </div><div>As far as dueling goes, pwning a mage with no mitigation hardly proves you can dps.  Go duel a mitg tank and see how uber ur dps is.  You may win from stuns and utility, but it wont be your 40 dmg hits with t6 fabled weapons.  </div><div> </div><div>Parses speak worlds and as far as im concerned are the only viable method of judging peoples dps.   As far as the average joe: Assassins and rangers warlocks crank out about 800dps per heroic, wizies about 750 if they have their marque.   Conj/necro can generate up to 800 on avg with dps pets, about 500-600 with tank pets.   The avg monk is gonna do about 300-350 dps.</div><div> </div><div><strong>In short its like this,</strong></div><div>If a group already has 2-3 t1/t2 dps, then yes a monk is an acceptable addition to a group who needs a dps class because the overal dps of the group is generaly accepted as being high enough to kill most mobs and any additional dps just adds icing.  </div><div> </div><div>If a group has a few t3-4 dps (fighters, bards, coercers etc the support classes)  and they need someone for the last spot, then no a monk prolly wont cut it because its just adding another lower teir dps to the equation, which in whole makes a largely ineffective group that might be capable of killing stuff, but is the majority case in which a monk will be turned down for "not being a dps".</div></div><div> </div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>Dfoley if that was meant for me, I never suggested he duel caster classes to prove his DPS skills.   I never even said our DPS was the best.  I was offering a way for him to prove his skills, against anyone who may doubt him.   That seemed like the most effective way to prove himself.  I either group within the guild or solo, just to avoid that type of attitude. </p><p>I have dueled  different "heavy tank" classes and have held my own.   I didnt stand there and hit auto attack, I used all the skill at my disposal as I would against any mob in the game.   </p><p>What you said about the prefered groups may be true for raids, where you can move people around to form the best groups.  But how often do you see a "perfect group" set up within a pick up group?    I would imagine it's not very often.   It would be less offensive if people would say "looking for Wizard etc..." if they are going to be specific about who they want.   </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><p>/One Word NOOBS</p><p> </p><p>people dont have a clue what a tank is , let them sit there for a few hours and try to find a plate wearing [Removed for Content] c*apbag tank whilst you grind uber xp and laugh at them spamming Chat Channels "LF Tank PST" whilst your dindging your next level</p><p> </p><p>:smileyvery-happy: Us Brawlers Rock Group xp grinds theres no better tank for solo heroic encounters than us</p>

[Dfoley3]

<div></div>Again guys, the original post was about a group not wanting a monk as a dps, not as a tank, stop derailing the thread.

[Rrawl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div></div>Again guys, the original post was about a group not wanting a monk as a dps, not as a tank, stop derailing the thread.<hr></blockquote><p>The point of the post was people's attitudes regarding monks, and their use in groups. The OP also stated that this individual told him he thought a 56 Pally was a better tank then him as a 60 monk. Please do not derail the thread to stand on your dps soapbox.</p><p>Having said that... I agree with everything you said in your earlier post regarding the tiers of dps and where we stand in comparison to other classes, and what we have to offer a group in a non tanking role even though we are not truly a dps class.</p>

[trin ka]

<div></div><div></div>I agree....who cares whether its a DPS or a Tank thread...great info for me in here(only 39 monk). I enjoy the info that I didnt know about this profession. Having alt sickness my monk is the furthest one on my "to-play" list so I'm not as versed in the monk as my other alts. I love to tank with my monk..but off tanking..basically O-stance,wacking away like crazyman, is my favorite thing to do with my monk. Soloing is much easier then with lets say....my mystic who takes 30 min to kill a single green mob. Keep the thoughts flowing about the opinions of monks game wide in groupage...it improves my knowledge of the Brawler.<p>Message Edited by trin kahl on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:37 AM</span></p>

[Stryyfe]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div></div>Again guys, the original post was about a group not wanting a monk as a dps, not as a tank, stop derailing the thread.<hr></blockquote><p>Are you smoking that stuff again? He talked about DPS and Tanking and Monk usefulness in groups.  If you want people to focus on DPS, go create a DPS only thread.</p><p> </p><p>And to add insult to injury, and talk about tanking... I want to see the 56 Paladin that can tank better than my 60 (now 63 though)monk, I really do.</p><p>Message Edited by Stryyfe on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:40 AM</span></p>

[Coccinea_Maga]

<div></div><p>The first few months of the game, no one seemed  to want a brawler as a tank.  I would respond to 'Group looking for tank' ooc's while hunting in Thundering Steppes, then see the message change to 'Group looking for tank/no monk or brusier' without a response.  People that played EQLive had a preconception that Monk did not equal Tank, Monk equal DPS.  Those that would take a brawler as a tank usually came out of it, 'Wow .. never knew you guys could do that.' </p><p>The perception has changed for the most part but you will still run across those people that have no clue how good a Brawler tank/DPS can be.  Ignore them and move on to a group that can appreciate your skills.</p>

[Moonstar]

<blockquote><hr>K4bs wrote:<img src="http://www.clan-ts.co.uk/eq2/nodps.GIF">Was just curious if you get the same sort of stuff on your servers?The same chap (the names have been nerfed to protect the innocent) told me the week before that a 56 paladin would make a better tank than me....Any similar experiences from you chaps?For the record the chap in question was a 59 assassin looking for a scaleborn group.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div><font color="#ff6699" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Yup I even have someone in my guild that refuses to believe that monks can be anything BUT tanks. It is really very frustrating. </font></div>

[Maker]

<div></div><div></div><p>I've run into in my old guild (which I left in part to the vast ignorance on the topic).  I'm geared in just about full legendary and all skills are master or adept, with all my traits picked for tanking.  I duo 3 ^^^ blue  heroics at once with my bro who plays a fury (few levels below me).  We take down yellow ^^^ heroics with ease, and chew through named mobs.  A larger number of times I'll ask him hows the healing going and he'll be like "I haven't even had to heal you yet".  I have played a zerker and guard up to mid 20's and still find the monk to be as good or better depending on the mob and skill of the group. </p><p>Bottom line is the group needs to listen to the tank and dps/heal based on the type of tank they have.  Anyone who tells you a monk can't tank hasn't played with a good one, or is just misinformed.  Anyone who says we can't offer dps hasnt seen what an offensive stance and everburning can do at all master.  Add a fury's rage proc and I am constantly at 109% haste dishing out damage with 2 legendary proc weapons. </p><p>Message Edited by Maker on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:21 AM</span></p>

[Dfoley3]

<div>in all honesty monks really arent anything other then tanks.   Our dps is very sub par to 'actual' dps classes.   We can do dps, and can fill in that last slot for mediocer dps, but you wont ever see a monk out dpsing a wiz/conj/nec/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/brig/swash/rng/wrk    we are about even with cor/ill/bru/bards/berk   and we are better dps then priests/non brawler fighters (exception being berks on ae mobs).</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>8 classes dps better then us</div><div> </div><div>7 classes about the same as us (including us), bards being on the lower end and bru slightly ahead</div><div> </div><div>9 classes dps worse then us</div><div> </div><div>We are middle teir dps.  If all you have is priests and other fight, we might pass as a dps class.  But with 8 other classes out dpsing us on a regular basis theres far better options then a monk for a dps.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>As far as tanking goes, i find crusaders to be the worst tanks - then brawlers in the middle - then warriors on top.  Crusaders may have mitigation, but i have a rather unlucky streak of about 40+ crusaders i know, and maybe 1 of them can out tank me.   For exp groups, bar none, berks, bruisers, and monks are the TOP exp choice.  We hold agro better then the rest, and our dps is  high for a tank so we dont just sit there pressing taunts like guards.</div>

[KabsReds]

for the record here, the last group I actually parsed in, in a dps role, i was parsing 450-500 easily in widow stance (kept over aggroing with halcyon)the only kind of dps i can't do is aoe dps, and that usually gets people into trouble anyway.it was more the attitude that bothered me, it was as if the chap was saying "you're not dps" but a week earlier the same guy had refused to let me tank saying i wasn't a tank, i mean, where does that leave me?all in all i still love my monk and agree it's his loss, but i wish that all these new monks would just go away tbh.

[Apelord]

<div></div><p>I have experienced the same attitude, but I find it to be a matter of education.  I've been in a number of groups where someone 3-4 levels below me decided they should tank "because they were better".  In all those cases my real life g/f (who plays a fury at the comp next to mine) has had to really work hard at keeping those guys alive.  Most of the time I've ripped aggro from them too even without my hate stance on.   Since my g/f and I duo most of the time we've had to develop much more sophisticated tactics to take things that a full group can just blow through with no thought.   Subtle things like timing debuffs, spinning mobs so the rest of the party gets to attack from behind, stance shifting timed with heals, etc.  all make up part of our playstyle that until experienced don't really register with other players.  This is our second set of characters and while we are not uber raiders by any means, I know that we can (and do) regularly duo green epic x2 mobs.  So I know I am a pretty darn good tank and when called upon to dps both of us can turn and burn with the best of them.   I also know that ANY duo with close coordination can achieve tremendous results.  The key is CLOSE coordination.  Just last night we helped some folks get the CQ4 mob.  The group wiped twice (a 57 gaurdian was MT) before we got there, then we joined and did it without a mezzer and no deaths.  Turned around and repeated for 2 folks that got bumped so we could help so I know it wasn't a fluke. </p><p>How to fight this attitude is simple: Make sure you do a great job in your group at whatever role you are playing be it MT, Off tank, or DPS.  Nine out of ten players will recognize this and soon the "Monks aren't a real tank/dps" perception will change.   No we are not gonna put out the dps of a well-played scout or wizzy, and yes other fighter classes make better group tanks than us, and in certain situations plate tanks are going to be better, etc.  But that is how it is supposed to be.  Doesn't mean we aren't useful, far from it.   The best raid I have ever been on I was put in the DPS group (all rangers, assasins and swashies) because my 18% attack speed buff enhanced that groups dps output more than adding another DPS.  Use what you got to best effect and prove them wrong is my attitude.   </p>

[JudyJudy]

<div></div><p><em>I agree with the tier system of DPS scaling, Raijen.</em></p><p><em>However...</em></p><p><em>Any well equipped, well played monk will dish out the DPS.  Period.</em></p><p><em>On a side note, when Shaolen and I are in xp groups (and, of course, in DPS mode) -  Together, I know we're pushing Tier 1 DPS.</em></p><p><em>Dual DPS monks > All  :smileywink:</em></p>

[Stryyfe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div>in all honesty monks really arent anything other then tanks.   Our dps is very sub par to 'actual' dps classes.   We can do dps, and can fill in that last slot for mediocer dps, but you wont ever see a monk out dpsing a wiz/conj/nec/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/brig/swash/rng/wrk    we are about even with cor/ill/bru/bards/berk   and we are better dps then priests/non brawler fighters (exception being berks on ae mobs).</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>8 classes dps better then us</div><div> </div><div>7 classes about the same as us (including us), bards being on the lower end and bru slightly ahead</div><div> </div><div>9 classes dps worse then us</div><div> </div><div>We are middle teir dps.  If all you have is priests and other fight, we might pass as a dps class.  But with 8 other classes out dpsing us on a regular basis theres far better options then a monk for a dps.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>As far as tanking goes, i find crusaders to be the worst tanks - then brawlers in the middle - then warriors on top.  Crusaders may have mitigation, but i have a rather unlucky streak of about 40+ crusaders i know, and maybe 1 of them can out tank me.   For exp groups, bar none, berks, bruisers, and monks are the TOP exp choice.  We hold agro better then the rest, and our dps is  high for a tank so we dont just sit there pressing taunts like guards.</div><hr></blockquote><p>I hate to criticize you, but man you really downplay monks. </p><p>Rangers are on the same tear of DPS as we are now. Where are you pulling your current data from? I can out DPS rangers, doing 400DPS on triple heroics 3 levels above me. Granted, you are right about not being even close to summoners or assassin types, but to put us in the same realm as Illusionists, Bards and what not.. you can't be serious.  Granted, a good fury can come close though.</p><p>Brusiers aren't really ahead in long fights, they have burst DPS which will be reflected more greatly on faster fights.  We also lack the AOE they get... and Berserks only chance to out-dps me is on their AE's and that was nerfed even more anyway.</p><p>I'd like to see our crescent strike (new AOE) be a much less recast time.... this would get us back up to that extra damage per encounter we'll miss from proc changes on storm palm.... which I now use half as much.</p>

[Colossaltitan]

<div></div>pre-dof brawlers were among the best dps (right in there with assassins- lol..the good ol' days <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)ppl still haven't adjusted themselves to us(as in brawlers) tanking.

[Dfoley3]

"together we are t1 dps"  yeah if u ADD two monks youll get a t1 dps, an assassin without trying can push 750 dps<div></div>

[Anjin]

<div>As far as DPS goes, I think you'll find we're a GREAT asset both DPS and Utility wise in a melee orientated DPS group.  Think about the following group setup:</div><div> </div><div>Berserker (Tanking): STR and DPS Group Buffs</div><div>Monk: Haste Group Buff</div><div>Scout DPS</div><div>Scout DPS</div><div>Scout / Enchanter</div><div>Healer</div><div> </div><div>The above example shows how simplistic it is to view a monks worth within a group as pure DPS.  Not only do we provide decent DPS within a group, but we enhance DPS for all other melee players.  Also, if a group is in a looooong fight and the DPS has run out of power, you'll find the group haste buff invaluable.</div><div> </div><div>You'l find that in a lot of group scenarios high tier DPS can't use their full DPS anyway without gaining aggro, so the difference in DPS doesn't actually matter!</div><div> </div><div>Anjin</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[ncrawler]

notsied alot of that as well... they ofen take me becuse my wife play a warden and healers are allways wanted....BUt to my own option I wuld say monk is one of the best of tanks out there.... I can easy take argo whit full off stance and hold it long engthe to it dies, or the main tank get it back...add a dirge and enchanter to the group as well, and I do more dmg then most scout classes....then sad you need a realy good tank to keep up to a group like that, my speed/dpsmod alone is engthe to steal argo <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />...as far as tanking its not a trubel as long as group understand you are a monk and hold of the first few secunds of a big figth so stance/tunting gets you argo....(as I think of its smart to do whti any tanks hehe)...So i must say prove em wrong... and rember the pallyes only belive htey are best becuse of the holy thingy and that of being warrior of God........<div></div>

[Dfoley3]

I figure id post an update.I got my 5th AP into double atk last night.  at 60% double atk and 20% dps mod, 109% haste.  With auto atk and 1~2 combat arts per fight we strip tanks.  I had a guard AND berk tank last night (with master 2 tank and all adept 3/master+ atks).   Its very easy to push 500 dps with double atk as is, and due to monks lack of agro managment we tend to rip so we still do less dps then scouts and we get to peel faster.  Now i know how wizies felt for the last year.  I press 1-2 atks and mob faces me and decides i get to tank the rest of the fight (and no i dont have hate proc on).  The only way either tank held me was going into offense stance and using all their power.  The wizie in my group wwas doing about 890 dps but has 11% agro debuff (3 from pet 8 from aa) + skills to debuff now, and the conj with pet was pushing about 900 dps also.  Again the spliting of his dps let him go much harder, infact his pet was doing more dmg then him on 50% of the fightsMy new goal is to peel a paladin with amends on me. . .   Now if only theyd fix fd to actualy drop agro instead of just suspending you on the list till you stand. <div></div>

[Idoru]

Kimzar, little help here to make your post a little more readableengthe = enough, pronounced eenuftrubel = trouble, pronounced like you had it, heh.I figured out the second one easily, but took me a few seconds to figure out that was intended as enough. Please don't take offense at me correcting you, because I definately appreciate your thoughts on the subject. And so I don't derail the thread:I ended up actually Main Tanking for the first time last night as a Monk of the 28th Circle in the Ruins of Varsoon. Had a 29 Fury as healer and and I think Warlock, Dirge, Troubador were the other three. With Dragon Stance running I was able to hold agro, "mostly." Seemed like everyone was able to pull it off me at some point, but when I was taunting every chance I could and they all had me targeted we did fine. It was when one of the others would get attacked first and throw a big damage in there that I had problems pulling it back, and once we had an add that went after our Fury, and one of the scouts did two big damage attacks, I couldn't get agro off him. Not once did we TPW though. When we had the add, we were able to just hold them off and finish off the 3 golems with a scout and the warlock down, and the fury completely out of power. And this is with very very few upgrades on my part. Turns out it's hard to find Monk upgrades on the broker now. If I did have my taunts upgraded and a little better mitigation we'd really have owned. Usually I'm off tank or bonus DPS, so it was neat to step into the other role, and do well.So whoever declined the help of a Monk in either role, probably just needs to be educated. Too bad for him and his group really.<div></div>

[Moonstar]

<blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:Now i know how wizies felt for the last year.  I press 1-2 atks and mob faces me and decides i get to tank the rest of the fight (and no i dont have hate proc on).<div></div><hr></blockquote><div><font color="#ff6699" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Hehe I agree here. I run around with a Guard, and a beserker at times, the guard is always cursing my aggro hoage hehe. Jokingly of course since we are friends but it is hillarious none the less.I am really trying to learn the from behind attack approach but its not always possible when you are in a bad area. As for our Wizzy friend ... we just laugh when one of us pulls aggro of the dear ol Guard. Granted the Wizzy tends to get it more but it's still nice to see that I can hold my own. This is what I wanted out of this class from the beginning. I am not trying to do T1 dmg but just be an effective member of a group. </font></div>

[ke'la]

<div></div><div><p><em>I agree with the tier system of DPS scaling, Raijen.</em></p><p><em>However...</em></p><p><em>Any well equipped, well played monk will dish out the DPS.  Period.</em></p><p><em>On a side note, when Shaolen and I are in xp groups (and, of course, in DPS mode) -  Together, I know we're pushing Tier 1 DPS.</em></p><p><em><font color="#ff3300">Dual DPS monks > All</font> </em></p><p></p><hr><p>I was in a group in Scale that was Monkx2, Brawler, Healerx2, and Plate tank. The Plate Tank was MT for 2 reasons a)Off tank Plate Tanks have very little DPS and b)Plate Tank was the Highest lvl of group and a Raider so Uber Gear. We where Tearing though stuff there faster then any group I have been with in there, because the Brawlers can go all out on DPS without worring about Taking agro(if they do switch to Def stance, Turn off Burn now your MT) the only group I have been in that was close to this 3 Brawler group was when I was MT with a Group of 2 Wizzies and a Conj, ranger we where slowed by the fact that the healer we had was a 57 warden and the wizzies where helping me tank by Stunning.</p></div>

[Sslarrga]

<div>OK, not sure what that person was smoking, but as of right now we are still great group tanks and great DPS.</div><div> </div><div>I'll be level 68 after tonight.  I've been group tank for guild xp groups since level 60.  I have not had a chance to go pure DPS at anytime yet because I'm MAIN tank for the guild for xp grinds.</div><div> </div><div>Here's my experience...</div><div> </div><div>I was the 2nd group to take out the devourer in the guild easily.  Only our raid MT has managed to take out instance bosses before I do.  Our other guardians?  Nope...  Paladin run groups?  Nope.  So I'd say for xp groups, you tank as well as you want to tank.  You just have to teach your DPS to nuke through you and you'll burn down mobs like crazy since they will NOT grab single target aggro from you no matter how hard they try.</div><div> </div><div>And about DPS.  Parsing while TANKING in either defensive or balanced mode.  I'm currently doing between 400-750 DPS while tanking.  So, we're definitely not crap DPS or even middle tier in groups.  I really feel for the rangers now, their DPS is just [Removed for Content] poor compared to before if they aren't meleeing...</div><div> </div><div>As I've said before also, I've been experimenting with the Str line.  I now have 96% chance to double attack.  And I now proc like a madman on autoattacks.  Both the primary and secondary attack have a chance to proc.  This is basically like dual wielding REALLY slow weapons.  However, with max haste the delay becomes bearable and the procs are worth it.</div><div> </div><div>Also being able to double attack on ranged attacks is a bonus.</div><div> </div><div>However, I'm very disappointed in the riposte skill that comes next.  It starts at 1.5 for rank 1.  Then only 2.0 for rank 2.  Appears to only go up 0.5 per rank which means it will cap at 5% chance which is too little to be useful.  Had it gone up 1.5% per rank this may have been a must have skill.  Had it gone up 1% per rank it would have been useful at least.</div><div> </div><div>After doing this, I'm very very very tempted to go 4-4-8 in Str, Sta, and Int for straight up DPS.  Even if I used dual wield weapons the ability to unequip them and have double attack on ranged weapons for ranged fights is very tempting.</div><div> </div><div>However, that said, proc rate and double attack on ranged attacks is the only real benefit (other than lower repair costs) to going down the str tree.  Rank 6 double attack is roughly equal to the DPS from dualwielding 2 T6 fabled weapons.</div><div> </div><div>I'm seriously doubting that Rank 8 double attack is going to be roughly equal to 2 T7 fabled weapons.</div><div> </div><div>However, the fact that the taunt proc will proc on BOTH the primary and secondary attacks makes this a great skill for tanking and holding aggro.</div><div> </div><div>Just for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s and giggles I'll sometimes just taunt once, start auto-attack and then chat with people while the group burns down the mob.  Occasionally someone will grab aggro when I do this, but it's fairly rare.  It's usually when they notice I'm doing it and start with snipe shot, assassination, or some other big nuke in the first second of the fight.</div><div> </div><div>Regards,</div><div>Croaker</div>

[KnowH]

<div></div><p>Haha, we're still having this discussion?  There's always going to be people that have no clue about the game who think that a Guardian is the only tank and a Wizard is the only DPS class, etc.  Let them think it and find a group that knows a little more about the game.  As for me, I've been the tank, for the most part, in my guild's "tier 1" grind group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  When the Guardian wants to tank, I let him, and go DPS.  The Monk class is versitile, if nothing else, and if the group you're thinking about joining doesn't realize this (and similar things about how the game works), that probably means they're gonna end up wiping more than anything <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>On a side note, there was one night that I was invited to a guild grind group and one of the members said, "all we need now is a tank."  I left the group and joined my usual group instead, and well, I've put 5 levels on the guy that said it.  Sad part is that he has a Monk alt.  I point this out just to remind folks that people's misconceptions are sometimes indicative of their skill level and should be avoided as much as possible.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Pari]

<div></div><p>I agree with KnowHao. I'm rather soloing than being in a group where people have no clue what the other classes in game are doining or their role is. After being in some very bad groups, I only group with people I know. Sometimes as MT, sometimes as dps. The good part is, we don't have to worry when the MT looses aggro for a while and the mobs turn on us. We can take a few hits and can switch to our def stances, till the MT has aggro again.</p><p>The "real" dps classes don't have that advantage and go down after very few hits.</p><p>If people in their 60+ lvl's still don't know that, I'm better off not being in a group with them. </p>