2H vs. DW in KoS/post-LU20

[erinn]

<div></div><div>I've been trying to keep up on the DW vs. two-hander debate.  It's flip-flopped a few times since EQ2 launched. </div><div> </div><div>What's the lastest consensus?  It's hard to follow given the latest changes to procs.  If I go with a 2 hand staff in T7 (like a bo staff), am I losing procs?  Does DPS suffer, or is it relatively the same as going DW?  </div><div> </div><div>I like the 2-hand staff animations, and it looks like at least one of our AA's requires the use of a staff - but I certainly don't want to place myself at a disadvantage if it's clear that DW is *the* way to go...</div><p>Message Edited by erinn on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:44 AM</span></p>

[Rrawl]

<div></div><p>Dual Wield has a clear dps advantage, as well as stats advantage in the current format. 2 handers don't have any apparent PROs to outweigh this as a CON... Several of the Wisdom line AA's and a few of the other AA's do require you to wield a staff though, and pretty much all those that do are damage oriented... The advantage of those AA's may make up for a lot of the difference in the DPS, if you dump a lot of points into those choices. I would still say that overall the dual wield is probably as better choice, statistically. I do agree though, those Bo Staff combat animations are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sexy.</p>

[erinn]

<div></div><p>Ahhh, rats - I just looked at the T7 crafted rare weapons again - I thought that for T7 they had made the 2-handers so that they were equivalent to a pair of DW's, but not quite.</p><p>For example, the ebony cudgel is +23 str, +23 Sta, +43 health/power, and 42.3 rating.</p><p>Ebony bo staff is almost exactly double that in every way, except the damage rating.  It's +46 str, +46 agi, +85 power/health, and 70.4 rating.</p><p>Too bad, would be nice to get to choose based on preference, rather than just make the 2-hand weapons such a disadvantage as to pretty much make them senseless.  I'd give up a little bit for personal style, but not that much.</p><p>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[ValValline]

Does parsing the numbers put 2H as far behind as the item stats indicate?<div></div>

[Rrawl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ValValline wrote:Does parsing the numbers put 2H as far behind as the item stats indicate?<div></div><hr></blockquote>The short answer is yes... I can't find the link now, but someone who actually parsed t6 legendary imbued crafted dual wield versus t6 legendary imbued crafted bo staff was getting around 20% more dps with the dual wield, if memory serves.

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div>Cant be right ? I do more damage with 2handed Bo than DW everytime plus less damage taken , With the New AA like 2 handers look a good choice to go with the AOE attacks (crane thingy )

[erinn]

<div></div>Has anyone parsed this post-LU20?  I don't even know how to begin to try to parse something...

[Dfoley3]

<div></div><p>Without any AA or other buffs, just intirely self buffed.  A t6 legendary bo staff dps wise performs identical to 2 t6 legendary fist weapons.   Moorgrad has stated that the reason the dual weilders were uped in their rating was because each hand having a chance to miss ment less overall dps from dual weild combos. </p><p>With the uping of the ratio of dual weilders, the sum of their 2 numbers should be slightly higher to reflect that it will have many more chances to be dodged , reposted, parried, blocked:  Not just because of there being two of them, but also do to the speed of them.  </p><p>On the flip side, hand of the god king 2 hander is not better then the Djinn masters weapon paired with the Ped of Sky weapon.  The sum of those two ratios ends up nearing 115 i beleive and the gap between that and the 82 on the hand of godking is just to much. </p><p>The rule of thumb for fabled weapons is this:  if your dual weilding,it takes 2 weapons and thus u need to win two considerably dificult to obtain items to dps, where as a 2hander requires just 1 loot.  Crafted being different due to how easy t6 rares were to obtain.</p><p> </p><p>On a side note, im at 380 dps with 36% double atk,  being as double atk scales up to 96%, im basicly at 3/8 max dps atm.  All going mathematicly well, ill be at 1000 dps with max dual weild, so un armed is definatly a viable solution now.  For dps at least, i still break 9.8k hp in my typical exp groups so im not to torn up about the stat loss.</p>

[BrainMu]

<div></div>don't know how you figured out that math but, i don't think your gonna hit 1000 dps, .... my math skills are telling me 380/1.36 = x/1.96, and x = 547 dps....

[Dfoley3]

I was pre factoring in dps mods from coercers and crit melee, just a hypotetical maximum dps.   Thats all.Your math is 100% right, just u didnt include my mental steps for stuff u didnt know i did :-p547/1.2= x/2  (for going from 20 % dps mod to 100%) = 911 dps2.8 *5 (max number of crit % i plan to go for) = 14%I figured if i was doing 911/ second, thats 2x 455 / s,  with the avg crit then being about 1.3-1.5 times that dmg, 1.4 for estimates sake.   Which equals out to about an extra 89 dps / sec ( .14*455 avg hit of 455 will crit for 1.4 times the dmg).  Theres some more math models and calculus for factoring in  misses and how theyll effect the increasing double atks, as well as other things but this is all simplified down to roughly 1k dps for me max, which is about 400 dps more then i caped at , at lvl 60<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div></div><p>Without any AA or other buffs, just intirely self buffed.  A t6 legendary bo staff dps wise performs identical to 2 t6 legendary fist weapons.   Moorgrad has stated that the reason the dual weilders were uped in their rating was because each hand having a chance to miss ment less overall dps from dual weild combos. </p><p>With the uping of the ratio of dual weilders, the sum of their 2 numbers should be slightly higher to reflect that it will have many more chances to be dodged , reposted, parried, blocked:  Not just because of there being two of them, but also do to the speed of them.  </p><p>On the flip side, hand of the god king 2 hander is not better then the Djinn masters weapon paired with the Ped of Sky weapon.  The sum of those two ratios ends up nearing 115 i beleive and the gap between that and the 82 on the hand of godking is just to much. </p><p>The rule of thumb for fabled weapons is this:  if your dual weilding,it takes 2 weapons and thus u need to win two considerably dificult to obtain items to dps, where as a 2hander requires just 1 loot.  Crafted being different due to how easy t6 rares were to obtain.</p><p> </p><p>On a side note, im at 380 dps with 36% double atk,  being as double atk scales up to 96%, im basicly at 3/8 max dps atm.  All going mathematicly well, ill be at 1000 dps with max dual weild, so un armed is definatly a viable solution now.  For dps at least, i still break 9.8k hp in my typical exp groups so im not to torn up about the stat loss.</p><hr></blockquote>Now that is one great post and yup godking 2 hander owns 

[Qiao Elu]

Thanks for all the posts and the info. T2 I was all about a bo (and stupid looking staffs when I couldn't get a bo). T3 I went with cesti and hated the salad bowl with spikes look even though they functioned very well. So in T4 I went with fist wraps. It was awesome beating up on mobs with the bare handed look while other fighters were in big metal cans with swords and tower shields! In T5 I really researched here in the forums. It looked like 2H won out in DPS but DW won out on stats so I chose a pair of cudgels based on the stats. When I finally dinged and could equip them I was shocked at the size! I looked like I had a pair of baby elephant trunks strapped to my thieghs! I can only afford so many rare raws so I decided to stick it out with them. I've been pretty happy with their performance but AGI stopped making much of a difference so I just got my brand spanking new [pristine imbued ironwood bo staff] in the mail from my favorite WW last night. My thinking was that the 2H vs.DW debate has mostly ended up being 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other. And with SOE the "best" choice could flip flop again at the next LU. The final factor in my decision came when I scanned all the new AA options and I think the WIS line is going to be the most beneficial to my play style and that requires a 2H weapon.So that was how my weapon choices have progressed over time. I think what I've learned is to choose the weapon that you like the looks of the most because if you compare similar level items there is little difference between them.

[Ezariel]

<div></div>I'm not a monk, I'm a bruiser.  So I can't tell how 2h performs with your haste buffs on.  For myself I lose around 15%-30% dps over a prolonged fight against a single target using 2h over dual wield if I use auto attack significantly.  With more parsing I could probably narrow this down to a more accurate percentage.  If its a short fight and I spam combat arts its about the same.  However I have invested heavily into the wisdom aa line.  In a fight against multiple targets, my dps doubles if not more while using a 2h weapon.  Now if only there were an easy way to switch between weapon sets on the fly easily...

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ezariel wrote:<div></div>I'm not a monk, I'm a bruiser.  So I can't tell how 2h performs with your haste buffs on.  For myself I lose around 15%-30% dps over a prolonged fight against a single target using 2h over dual wield if I use auto attack significantly.  With more parsing I could probably narrow this down to a more accurate percentage.  If its a short fight and I spam combat arts its about the same.  However I have invested heavily into the wisdom aa line.  In a fight against multiple targets, my dps doubles if not more while using a 2h weapon.  Now if only there were an easy way to switch between weapon sets on the fly easily...<hr></blockquote><p>Im a bruiser as well and thats just not right i ve done parses of numerous soloing grinds on ^^^'s and on a few of the easy raids to see the difference and the staff wins hands down im DW 2 imbued ironwood batons for testing with is it cos im using them ? should i use cesti instead ? i just dont get how ppl are saying DW is superior , MG has stated DW and 2HD will deal the same damage over the same amount of time which makes sense</p><p> </p><p>Larger weap hits for more but slower</p><p>Smaller x 2 Hits faster for less so technically should parse the same but the 2 hander is defo better , well for me atleast</p>

[waldaz]

<div></div><p>So i'm confused <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I get that stats of DW will almost always be greater than 2HB but does 2HB DPS now match DW DPS?  Like the OP i like the 2HB animations and quite fancy a change from DW when i hit T6 if i'm not losing DPS</p><p> </p>

[Nemi]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ezariel wrote:<div></div> <strong>Now if only there were an easy way to switch between weapon sets on the fly easily...</strong><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">There is, just drag the items from your inventory to the hotbar, then you can click on them to equip. Only thing to note there is a 3 second delay from when you equip the first item will the second during combat.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">i.e. If you have 2hb equipped and click on 1st dual wield, it will switch out and then you need to wait 3 seconds before equipping second..however if you have dual wield weaps equipped, you can switch instantly to 2hb.</font></p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Phly]

<div>So...basically...its still an open question?  :smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div><div>Personally, I prefer the look and feel of DW, but can anyone <em>verify</em>  that one is better than the other??</div><div> </div><div>:robottongue:</div>

[shaolen]

<div></div>At lvl 64 I am currently using a Strifewind Bo Staff as my primary weapon of choice.  I also have a Ravestician Shredder and a Strifewind Clawfist as DW options, my slashing skill is maxed out.  All of the weapons are legendary.   I haven't parsed it, but I kill the mobs a lot faster with the Bo.  Also my attack rating is 40-50 points higher with the Bo equipped.  The only time I use the Shredder and Clawfist now is when I tank to increase the number of taunts.  I am focusing on the Wisdom line of AAs right now so a good staff is essential.  Plus the damage that thing puts out is incredible <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

[Malkosha]

<div></div><p>I've been trying to follow this thread which is very interesting, but I still am a little lost here.</p><p>In comparing DW with 2HB like a Bo, I understand the loss of stats because the combo of the DW is usually greater than a single weapon. As far as DPS is concerned, I would assume that if you have a pair of DW weapons that has a damage rating of 7.2 each, the the staff would need at least a damage rating of 14.4 to be equal. Is this even close to the truth?</p><p>Please keep in mind that while talking about the latest T7 stuff is very intersting, I'm only level 17 now with little money and no major items yet. All the higher end weapon stuff I'm learning about looks great for the future, but right now it pretty much Greek to me :smileytongue:</p><p>The next upgrade that I can find in the DW line on the market will cost me about 34G which is way out of my league at this moment. Also, either there aren't many DW weapons for sale or there are tons of people buying them up. Maybe I need to craft my own? Bo's however, seem to cost much less and there are tons of them out there. The fist wraps I'm using right now seem to work excellent (rated at 7.2 plus stats) but I can only assume they will eventually become obsolete.</p><p>I guess I need to know what direction to go towards until I can quest for better equiptment or get enough cash to buy them. Bo animation looks great but as a solo Monk (so far) I need to survive which up to now is a non-issue but may change in a level or so. Monks do kick butt! Please clue me in because so far playing a Monk has been one of the better gaming experiences yet in any MMORPG and I need to keep the ball rolling.</p><p>Thank you!</p><p> </p>

[Malkosha]

<div></div><p>I did some research and guess I can answer my own question. This is mostly for other noobs like me or for those that know from experience and can correct me.</p><p>Since money is tight and I'm low level, 2HB seems the way to go. Its cheaper, the animation is cooler (very important if you are looking at the same char for a while), and I should get more swings in-between spaming CA's. The money saved can go for armor that can make up the stat loss from DW.</p><p>That's my story and I'm sticking to it ... for now :smileywink:</p><p>Oh ... did I mention that Bo animations look cool?</p><p> </p>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Malkosha wrote:<div></div><p>I've been trying to follow this thread which is very interesting, but I still am a little lost here.</p><p>In comparing DW with 2HB like a Bo, I understand the loss of stats because the combo of the DW is usually greater than a single weapon. As far as DPS is concerned, I would assume that if you have a pair of DW weapons that has a damage rating of 7.2 each, the the staff would need at least a damage rating of 14.4 to be equal. Is this even close to the truth?</p><p>Please keep in mind that while talking about the latest T7 stuff is very intersting, I'm only level 17 now with little money and no major items yet. All the higher end weapon stuff I'm learning about looks great for the future, but right now it pretty much Greek to me :smileytongue:</p><p>The next upgrade that I can find in the DW line on the market will cost me about 34G which is way out of my league at this moment. Also, either there aren't many DW weapons for sale or there are tons of people buying them up. Maybe I need to craft my own? Bo's however, seem to cost much less and there are tons of them out there. The fist wraps I'm using right now seem to work excellent (rated at 7.2 plus stats) but I can only assume they will eventually become obsolete.</p><p>I guess I need to know what direction to go towards until I can quest for better equiptment or get enough cash to buy them. Bo animation looks great but as a solo Monk (so far) I need to survive which up to now is a non-issue but may change in a level or so. Monks do kick butt! Please clue me in because so far playing a Monk has been one of the better gaming experiences yet in any MMORPG and I need to keep the ball rolling.</p><p>Thank you!</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually no, the combo of 2x dual wields has to exceed double the damage rating of a 2h wep just to perform the same dps wise.  There are missed swings during combat art casting plus any stuns, stifles or whatever to be considered that weigh it in favor of the 2h wep.  If a mob stuns you for a measly 2 seconds and your using a single wep that only swings once every 2.1 secs you didn't lose a bit of damage, change that to 2 weapons that swing every 1.6 secs and now you've lost a bit.</p><p>There is also riposte damage.  In a change a while back they lessened this gap considerably so it's no longer the night and day difference it once was but a 2h weapon still takes less riposte damage when attacking from the front.  With less overall swings the mob gets less chances to riposte you so you take a SLIGHT amount less damage using the 2h setup.</p><p>Then there's YOUR ripostes to consider.  Every time you riposte an attack the game deals damage to the mob based on the damage a normal swing from the weapon in your primary hand would deal.  Well if you have a small damage but fast swinging dual wield setup then ripostes from you don't hit all that hard.  Conversly if you have a high damage 2h wep equipped each riposte bites back a LOT harder.  You still riposte the same percentage of the time regardless of which you use, just with a 2h wep each and everyone one of them hits considerably harder.  This is easy to see by pulling a few low con critters that can't hurt you getting them all in front arc and popping Tsunami without autoattack on.  Do this with dual wield and 12 seconds later all their HPs did drop noticably.  Do this with a slow 2h wep with high damage per hit and their either dead or very close to it.  Overall it's a moot point on single mob fights as you don't riposte THAT much unless using tsunami, but when fighting multi mob encounters it can add up fast.  Also when trying to solo higher con heroics or names using a 2h wep your tsunami becomes more than a damage prevention move it's a considerable amount of added damage as well unless fighting a caster that doesn't swing much. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Now if you fight mobs that can't hurt you much to begin with and don't use any stun type moves then yes dual wields will outdamge similar 2h weps.  All our arts (except the aoe which you wouldn't be using in this situation anyway) cast fast enough to not really miss swings even with max hasted dual wields so that's not really an issue these days.  There's also no longer a proc advantage in favor of slower weapons and in fact the procs on anything other than autoattacks are mostly a myth these days.  So for all intents and purposes when solo'n lower con stuff that can't hurt much anyway the dual wield wins, when in a grp as dps and not tanking dual wield will also usually win.  When soloing challenging fights ESPECIALLY multi-mob encouters the 2h really begins to shine.</p>

[Ezariel]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Im a bruiser as well and thats just not right i ve done parses of numerous soloing grinds on ^^^'s and on a few of the easy raids to see the difference and the staff wins hands down im DW 2 imbued ironwood batons for testing with is it cos im using them ? should i use cesti instead ? i just dont get how ppl are saying DW is superior , MG has stated DW and 2HD will deal the same damage over the same amount of time which makes sense</p><p> </p><p>Larger weap hits for more but slower</p><p>Smaller x 2 Hits faster for less so technically should parse the same but the 2 hander is defo better , well for me atleast</p><hr></blockquote>I don't recommend batons or cesti for a bruiser.  Those are monk weapons, too slow for a bruiser.  I use fistwraps for my dual wields as they are the fastest.  We have no haste buffs to reduce the delay, instead we have +DPS buffs to increase the damage per hit. 

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ezariel wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Im a bruiser as well and thats just not right i ve done parses of numerous soloing grinds on ^^^'s and on a few of the easy raids to see the difference and the staff wins hands down im DW 2 imbued ironwood batons for testing with is it cos im using them ? should i use cesti instead ? i just dont get how ppl are saying DW is superior , MG has stated DW and 2HD will deal the same damage over the same amount of time which makes sense</p><p> </p><p>Larger weap hits for more but slower</p><p>Smaller x 2 Hits faster for less so technically should parse the same but the 2 hander is defo better , well for me atleast</p><hr></blockquote>I don't recommend batons or cesti for a bruiser.  Those are monk weapons, too slow for a bruiser.  I use fistwraps for my dual wields as they are the fastest.  We have no haste buffs to reduce the delay, instead we have +DPS buffs to increase the damage per hit. <hr></blockquote><p>Also you should consider that your dps buffs are a percentage of normal autoattack damage.  Think about that for a second...</p><p>Would you rather see an extra 40% damage on a weapon that averages 40 per swing but does it very fast, or the same percentage bonus on a hit that averages 100+? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Since it is percentage based you see a larger benefit when you start with larger base numbers.  ALSO this leaves you room to take advantage of any haste in whatever groups you may be in.</p>

[Malkosha]

<div></div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=94187"><span>Nacireen</span></a>  .... thank you.</div><div> </div><div>I think I get it now.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ezariel wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Im a bruiser as well and thats just not right i ve done parses of numerous soloing grinds on ^^^'s and on a few of the easy raids to see the difference and the staff wins hands down im DW 2 imbued ironwood batons for testing with is it cos im using them ? should i use cesti instead ? i just dont get how ppl are saying DW is superior , MG has stated DW and 2HD will deal the same damage over the same amount of time which makes sense</p><p> </p><p>Larger weap hits for more but slower</p><p>Smaller x 2 Hits faster for less so technically should parse the same but the 2 hander is defo better , well for me atleast</p><hr></blockquote>I don't recommend batons or cesti for a bruiser.  Those are monk weapons, too slow for a bruiser.  I use fistwraps for my dual wields as they are the fastest.  We have no haste buffs to reduce the delay, instead we have +DPS buffs to increase the damage per hit. <hr></blockquote><p>Also you should consider that your dps buffs are a percentage of normal autoattack damage.  Think about that for a second...</p><p>Would you rather see an extra 40% damage on a weapon that averages 40 per swing but does it very fast, or the same percentage bonus on a hit that averages 100+? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Since it is percentage based you see a larger benefit when you start with larger base numbers.  ALSO this leaves you room to take advantage of any haste in whatever groups you may be in.</p><hr></blockquote>Then surely with that logic your going to see more benefit on a 2 hander rather than DW faster weapon ?

[JudyJudy]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p><em>Not much into parses, nor the exact equation concerning the benefits of DW vs. 2hand blunt.</em></p><p><em>But I will add my 2 copper pieces to the discussion... :smileyhappy:</em></p><p><em>When tanking, I go DW all the way - pairing the Ravasectian Shredder and the Strifewing Claw.  This allows me to keep agro more effectively vs. the slower 2hander as my hate proc will fire more often.</em></p><p><em>I havn't really been too concerned with weilding the 2hander until, however, a friend urged me to try the Strifewing Bo.  During this time, last Saturday on our Darathar Raid, was cracking that old dragon every 2 seconds for 1300 - 1500 points of damage NON CRIT.</em></p><p><em>On the typical encounter, without all the debuffs, fully self hasted and my strength self buffed up to about 400, I'm looking at around 500 - 1k every 2 seconds, again non crit.</em></p><p><em>I've heard the Awakened Battle Mace being a great solo 2 hander due to it's powerful healing proc, but have yet to get my hands on one.</em></p><p>Message Edited by JudyJudy on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:03 AM</span></p>

[Devolux]

One thing that fails to be mentioned is delay.The Strifewing is uber because it has a 4 sec delay - not as nice as Grizz but close.Most Monks will be running around around the 100% haste cap.When I calculate the post haste damage ratings:Grizzfazzle:  2.5 delay/1.25 hasted  - 177damage/1.25 = 141.6Strifewing Bo 4.0 delay/2.0 hasted - 277 damage/2 = 137.9So the grizz has a slight advantage + proc and +5 str +5 sta 50 hpDual wield you are going to be hitting the cap much quicker.  1.2/1.5 delay weps will not be losing so much delay from haste.I will throw down some parses soon.  I have a bunch exported.  I am currently doing considerably more with Grizzfazzle than I am with Godking/Strifewing Claw/Rav/etc.Plus 50 str 50 sta 150 health is tough to come by on 2 dual wielders right now - that I have seen.<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Devolux wrote:One thing that fails to be mentioned is delay.The Strifewing is uber because it has a 4 sec delay - not as nice as Grizz but close.Most Monks will be running around around the 100% haste cap.When I calculate the post haste damage ratings:Grizzfazzle:  2.5 delay/1.25 hasted  - 177damage/1.25 = 141.6Strifewing Bo 4.0 delay/2.0 hasted - 277 damage/2 = 137.9So the grizz has a slight advantage + proc and +5 str +5 sta 50 hp<font color="#ffff00">Dual wield you are going to be hitting the cap much quicker.  1.2/1.5 delay weps will not be losing so much delay from haste.I will throw down some parses soon.  I have a bunch exported.  I am currently doing considerably more with Grizzfazzle than I am with Godking/Strifewing Claw/Rav/etc.</font>Plus 50 str 50 sta 150 health is tough to come by on 2 dual wielders right now - that I have seen.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Now thats the info i have been after , its exactly what ive been thinking so if 2HD is better for monks due to your haste (as said 2 DW are faster so dont get as much benefit from the haste) but where does that leave bruisers :smileysad: now thats the question

[Code2501]

<div></div><p>The below figures are not accurate for any particular weapon and ignore the delay cap of 0.6 seconds for the purpose of clarifying of a point.</p><p>2sec delay x 100 dmg per hit x 4 seconds of auto attack = 0 - 200 dmg</p><p>1 sec delay x 50 dmg per hit x 4 seconds of auto attack = 0 - 200 dmg</p><p>now add 100% haste;</p><p>1 sec delay x 100 dmg per hit x 4 seconds of auto attack = 0 - 400 dmg</p><p>0.5 secon delay x 50 dmg per hit x 4 seconds of auto attack = 0 - 400 dmg</p><p>Essentialy at 100% haste, if the delay is slow or fast it does not really matter, the point is both are attacking twice as often as normal and hence there is <u>no DPS advantage related to delay alone</u>.</p><p> </p><p>The only way one weapon can have an advantage over another DPS wise is if the <em><strong>Dmg to Delay ratio</strong></em> of one weapon is more favourable than the other. eg. (delay 2 sec, dmg 250) VS (delay 1sec, dmg 100) clearly weapon 1 deals more DPS than Weapon 2. this is not due to the delay alone but due to the relationship between delay and dmg.</p><p>If the <em>Dmg to Delay ratio</em> favours one weapon DPS wise over the other then DPS/Haste buffs will have a marginaly greater effect on that weapon.</p><p>So, to counter what Devolux and DarkMirrax are suggesting, dual-weild does <strong>not</strong> benefit less from Haste/DPS buffs than a 2-hander as a general rule.</p>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Code2501 wrote:<div></div><p>The below figures are not accurate for any particular weapon and ignore the delay cap of 0.6 seconds for the purpose of clarifying of a point.</p><p>2sec delay x 100 dmg per hit x 4 seconds of auto attack = 0 - 200 dmg</p><p>1 sec delay x 50 dmg per hit x 4 seconds of auto attack = 0 - 200 dmg</p><p>now add 100% haste;</p><p>1 sec delay x 100 dmg per hit x 4 seconds of auto attack = 0 - 400 dmg</p><p>0.5 secon delay x 50 dmg per hit x 4 seconds of auto attack = 0 - 400 dmg</p><p>Essentialy at 100% haste, if the delay is slow or fast it does not really matter, the point is both are attacking twice as often as normal and hence there is <u>no DPS advantage related to delay alone</u>.</p><p> </p><p>The only way one weapon can have an advantage over another DPS wise is if the <em><strong>Dmg to Delay ratio</strong></em> of one weapon is more favourable than the other. eg. (delay 2 sec, dmg 250) VS (delay 1sec, dmg 100) clearly weapon 1 deals more DPS than Weapon 2. this is not due to the delay alone but due to the relationship between delay and dmg.</p><p>If the <em>Dmg to Delay ratio</em> favours one weapon DPS wise over the other then DPS/Haste buffs will have a marginaly greater effect on that weapon.</p><p>So, to counter what Devolux and DarkMirrax are suggesting, dual-weild does <strong>not</strong> benefit less from Haste/DPS buffs than a 2-hander as a general rule.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Great comparison considering you ignored all the game mechanics and made up the numbers, but really, bravo...</p><p>This describes exactly what would be the case in EQ1, oh and then only for straight fighters, hybrids would see the same effects that we do in THIS game where autoattack is by far not all we do.</p><p>In this game we have combat arts that take time to cast, yes it's often a very short time but not for all arts and even a very small difference repeated 20 times for all your arts adds up.  When you cast you can't swing until you are done.  Now if that spiffy ubah-debuff mega-damage art you are about to use has a 1 second cast time and you are using 1.6 speed dual wields with max haste (making delay now 0.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> then you just lost a swing on each of your weapons.  Now had you been using a 2.4 delay weapon that under same haste only hit 1.2 delay, well then you lost nothing.</p><p>Now lets consider criticals that have been recently added to the game.  When you get a crit you get 130% of the damage you would have gotten normally.  Now lets stop making up numbers and look at some real ones.  Best example items I could find to examine on the spur of the moment (with my mystic so fighters would see higher damage) were pristine imbued sandlewood greatstaff (2h 44.3 rating, 2.3 delay and 25-76 dmg) and pristine imbued sandlewood cudgel (DW 26.6 rating, 1.7 delay and 11-34 dmg).  So the average damage from the 2h would be 50 and from the dual wields would be 22.  Now we get a crit on the 2h we just added 15 damage (adding 30%) but with the dual wield you only added 6.  And that's from lower teir common crafted weapons.  The difference gets larger with higher end weapons.</p><p>Just to sum it up for those that haven't seen where I'm getting there are still a lot of factors that weigh in favor of 2h over dual wield.  You take less riposte damage by swinging less.  You get more benefit out of criticals as they are a percentage increase, so a higher base damage means a higher crit.  DPS buffs share the same mechanic they are a flat increase on base damage so do more for a higher damage but slower weapon.  Also haste has more room to work with on a slower weapon.  Now if you can find a very high delay on a dual wielder it can share most of these same benefits though will still suffer from more riposte damage taken if you are attacking the mob from the front due to swining twice as much.  And I've yet to see a dual wield approach the delays I'm seeing on 2h weps or come close to their base damage per hit.</p><p>Oh and I forgot EQ1 had criticals as well that worked pretty much the samed way so your comparison wouldn't even be valid there.</p>

[Code2501]

<div></div><p></p><hr><p>Nacireen:</p><p>Great comparison considering you ignored all the game mechanics and made up the numbers, but really, bravo...</p><p>This describes exactly what would be the case in EQ1, oh and then only for straight fighters, hybrids would see the same effects that we do in THIS game where autoattack is by far not all we do.</p><p>In this game we have combat arts that take time to cast, yes it's often a very short time but not for all arts and even a very small difference repeated 20 times for all your arts adds up.  When you cast you can't swing until you are done.  Now if that spiffy ubah-debuff mega-damage art you are about to use has a 1 second cast time and you are using 1.6 speed dual wields with max haste (making delay now 0.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> then you just lost a swing on each of your weapons.  Now had you been using a 2.4 delay weapon that under same haste only hit 1.2 delay, well then you lost nothing.</p><p><font color="#ffff00"> Most CA's had their casting times reduced to 0.5 seconds to counter this. 0.5 seconds is less than the capped haste benefit of the fastest weapons in the game (1.2 secx100% haste=0.6 seconds). Also the timer for your auto attack continues to count down when your casting a CA, if the timer is up the auto attack fires straight after the CA. Whilst a slower weapon did have a significant DPS advantage in the game Prior to LU13, the difference now would be very minor.However 2xDW = higher Dmg rating than 1x2hander of the same tier/grade, this is how weapons have been designed, specifically to compensate for any loss in DPS when CA spamming whilst DW. These are game mechanics you either chose to ignore in your critique or are ingorant of yourself.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The post appears in the monk forum, and is specifically in relation to 2handers Vs Dual Wield. As such the casting timers of Scout spells is largely irellevent and as Priest and Mages can not DW their casting timers are even less relevant.</font></p><p>Now lets consider criticals that have been recently added to the game.  When you get a crit you get 130% of the damage you would have gotten normally.  Now lets stop making up numbers and look at some real ones.  Best example items I could find to examine on the spur of the moment (with my mystic so fighters would see higher damage) were pristine imbued sandlewood greatstaff (2h 44.3 rating, 2.3 delay and 25-76 dmg) and pristine imbued sandlewood cudgel (DW 26.6 rating, 1.7 delay and 11-34 dmg).  So the average damage from the 2h would be 50 and from the dual wields would be 22.  Now we get a crit on the 2h we just added 15 damage (adding 30%) but with the dual wield you only added 6.  And that's from lower teir common crafted weapons.  The difference gets larger with higher end weapons.</p><p><font color="#ffff00"> It appears you are confusing the % dmg per hit with actual increase in dps. Whilst +30%Dmg crit might give the 2hander 15(?) extra dmg PER Critical HIT over the 6(?) PER CRITICAL HIT of a DW this compleately ingores the fact that the actual DPS is not based on a weapons dmg per hit, but rather based on the average damage per second. Obviously if the DW hits more often than the two hander it has more chance to critical, thus increasing the actual DPS from criticals to greater than the sugested 15/6 ratio that you figure.</font></p><p>Just to sum it up for those that haven't seen where I'm getting there are still a lot of factors that weigh in favor of 2h over dual wield.  You take less riposte damage by swinging less.  You get more benefit out of criticals as they are a percentage increase, so a higher base damage means a higher crit.  DPS buffs share the same mechanic they are a flat increase on base damage so do more for a higher damage but slower weapon.  Also haste has more room to work with on a slower weapon.  Now if you can find a very high delay on a dual wielder it can share most of these same benefits though will still suffer from more riposte damage taken if you are attacking the mob from the front due to swining twice as much.  And I've yet to see a dual wield approach the delays I'm seeing on 2h weps or come close to their base damage per hit.</p><p><font color="#ffff00"> I don't disagree that you will get less riposte dmg from mobs with a slower weapon, however the increase you suggest in DPS from criticals is a figment of your imagination. DPS and Haste buffs will only have more effect if the <em>Dmg to Delay ratio</em> on the weapon is greater and is not effected by the delay alone. The delay benefit due to CA's was largely made nul from changes in LU13 and due to the higher dmg rating on 2 DW combined over 1 2hander is open to debate by only the most pedantic of personalities.</font></p><p>Oh and I forgot EQ1 had criticals as well that worked pretty much the samed way so your comparison wouldn't even be valid there.</p><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ffff00">You seem proficient with english but it appears you confuse comparison with illustration. I was Illustrating the mathematics of Haste in an auto attack situation, as such it is was necisary to use real examples nor to include casting timers of CA's. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">It is unfortunate that you insisted on over-complicating the issue by trying to bring up issues that were largely made obselete 7 live update's ago, and flawed mathematical logic regarding critical damage. The only redeaming feature of your post was the attempt at sarcasm which really could do with a sponging as sarcasm like wine is best kept somewhat dry for a fresher pallete.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I really dont care if you have a preference for one weapon type over another, or even if you use some of your imagined "extra dps" as personal justification, But please try not to reply in an overly sarcastic tone, embelish the truth and try to pass yourself off as having real knowledge on the issue, it may improve your ego but it confuses the facts for others.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Riposte aside, when it comes to DPS its all about dmg rating comparison. If a specific 2 hander has a higher dmg rating than 2 Dual Wielders combined then it will have superior DPS buffed or unbuffed. This however rarely appears to be the case with similarly tiered weapons where the opposite is commonly witnessed. Go and take another look at the specific example you posted above regarding the sandalwood weapons... (2hander) 44.3 dmg rating < (2xDW) 2x26.6 = 53.2 dmg rating. Damage rating on a weapon of course being a direct translation of the </font><font color="#ffff00"><em>Dmg to Delay ratio</em> that the developers put into the game specifically to allow easier comparison between weapons.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffff00">On a personal note, I alternate between 2hander and DW based on the mob... If the Riposte alot or have a dmg shield i use a 2hander, if not I use DW. DPS wise there's not a huge discrepancy. The Grizzle staff obviously rocks DPS wise due to its high dmg rating, not due to its delay.</font></p>

[Hidehi]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Code2501 wrote:<div></div><p>The below figures are not accurate for any particular weapon and ignore the delay cap of 0.6 seconds for the purpose of clarifying of a point.</p><hr></blockquote>Wow delay cap is 0.6sec? I thought it was 0.8sec....I should inform some newbie in my guild that I was wrong...<span><span>:smileysad:</span></span></span></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Code2501 wrote:<div></div><p></p><hr><p>Nacireen:</p><p>Great comparison considering you ignored all the game mechanics and made up the numbers, but really, bravo...</p><p>This describes exactly what would be the case in EQ1, oh and then only for straight fighters, hybrids would see the same effects that we do in THIS game where autoattack is by far not all we do.</p><p>In this game we have combat arts that take time to cast, yes it's often a very short time but not for all arts and even a very small difference repeated 20 times for all your arts adds up.  When you cast you can't swing until you are done.  Now if that spiffy ubah-debuff mega-damage art you are about to use has a 1 second cast time and you are using 1.6 speed dual wields with max haste (making delay now 0.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> then you just lost a swing on each of your weapons.  Now had you been using a 2.4 delay weapon that under same haste only hit 1.2 delay, well then you lost nothing.</p><p><font color="#ffff00"> Most CA's had their casting times reduced to 0.5 seconds to counter this. 0.5 seconds is less than the capped haste benefit of the fastest weapons in the game (1.2 secx100% haste=0.6 seconds). Also the timer for your auto attack continues to count down when your casting a CA, if the timer is up the auto attack fires straight after the CA. Whilst a slower weapon did have a significant DPS advantage in the game Prior to LU13, the difference now would be very minor.However 2xDW = higher Dmg rating than 1x2hander of the same tier/grade, this is how weapons have been designed, specifically to compensate for any loss in DPS when CA spamming whilst DW. These are game mechanics you either chose to ignore in your critique or are ingorant of yourself.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The post appears in the monk forum, and is specifically in relation to 2handers Vs Dual Wield. As such the casting timers of Scout spells is largely irellevent and as Priest and Mages can not DW their casting timers are even less relevant.</font></p><p>Now lets consider criticals that have been recently added to the game.  When you get a crit you get 130% of the damage you would have gotten normally.  Now lets stop making up numbers and look at some real ones.  Best example items I could find to examine on the spur of the moment (with my mystic so fighters would see higher damage) were pristine imbued sandlewood greatstaff (2h 44.3 rating, 2.3 delay and 25-76 dmg) and pristine imbued sandlewood cudgel (DW 26.6 rating, 1.7 delay and 11-34 dmg).  So the average damage from the 2h would be 50 and from the dual wields would be 22.  Now we get a crit on the 2h we just added 15 damage (adding 30%) but with the dual wield you only added 6.  And that's from lower teir common crafted weapons.  The difference gets larger with higher end weapons.</p><p><font color="#ffff00"> It appears you are confusing the % dmg per hit with actual increase in dps. Whilst +30%Dmg crit might give the 2hander 15(?) extra dmg PER Critical HIT over the 6(?) PER CRITICAL HIT of a DW this compleately ingores the fact that the actual DPS is not based on a weapons dmg per hit, but rather based on the average damage per second. Obviously if the DW hits more often than the two hander it has more chance to critical, thus increasing the actual DPS from criticals to greater than the sugested 15/6 ratio that you figure.</font></p><p>Just to sum it up for those that haven't seen where I'm getting there are still a lot of factors that weigh in favor of 2h over dual wield.  You take less riposte damage by swinging less.  You get more benefit out of criticals as they are a percentage increase, so a higher base damage means a higher crit.  DPS buffs share the same mechanic they are a flat increase on base damage so do more for a higher damage but slower weapon.  Also haste has more room to work with on a slower weapon.  Now if you can find a very high delay on a dual wielder it can share most of these same benefits though will still suffer from more riposte damage taken if you are attacking the mob from the front due to swining twice as much.  And I've yet to see a dual wield approach the delays I'm seeing on 2h weps or come close to their base damage per hit.</p><p><font color="#ffff00"> I don't disagree that you will get less riposte dmg from mobs with a slower weapon, however the increase you suggest in DPS from criticals is a figment of your imagination. DPS and Haste buffs will only have more effect if the <em>Dmg to Delay ratio</em> on the weapon is greater and is not effected by the delay alone. The delay benefit due to CA's was largely made nul from changes in LU13 and due to the higher dmg rating on 2 DW combined over 1 2hander is open to debate by only the most pedantic of personalities.</font></p><p>Oh and I forgot EQ1 had criticals as well that worked pretty much the samed way so your comparison wouldn't even be valid there.</p><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ffff00">You seem proficient with english but it appears you confuse comparison with illustration. I was Illustrating the mathematics of Haste in an auto attack situation, as such it is was necisary to use real examples nor to include casting timers of CA's. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">It is unfortunate that you insisted on over-complicating the issue by trying to bring up issues that were largely made obselete 7 live update's ago, and flawed mathematical logic regarding critical damage. The only redeaming feature of your post was the attempt at sarcasm which really could do with a sponging as sarcasm like wine is best kept somewhat dry for a fresher pallete.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I really dont care if you have a preference for one weapon type over another, or even if you use some of your imagined "extra dps" as personal justification, But please try not to reply in an overly sarcastic tone, embelish the truth and try to pass yourself off as having real knowledge on the issue, it may improve your ego but it confuses the facts for others.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Riposte aside, when it comes to DPS its all about dmg rating comparison. If a specific 2 hander has a higher dmg rating than 2 Dual Wielders combined then it will have superior DPS buffed or unbuffed. This however rarely appears to be the case with similarly tiered weapons where the opposite is commonly witnessed. Go and take another look at the specific example you posted above regarding the sandalwood weapons... (2hander) 44.3 dmg rating < (2xDW) 2x26.6 = 53.2 dmg rating. Damage rating on a weapon of course being a direct translation of the </font><font color="#ffff00"><em>Dmg to Delay ratio</em> that the developers put into the game specifically to allow easier comparison between weapons.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffff00">On a personal note, I alternate between 2hander and DW based on the mob... If the Riposte alot or have a dmg shield i use a 2hander, if not I use DW. DPS wise there's not a huge discrepancy. The Grizzle staff obviously rocks DPS wise due to its high dmg rating, not due to its delay.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes MOST abilities had their casting times lowered to 0.5sec but not ALL.  Our lovely creature masters are all 1 second casts.  Any racial buffs you may have are also 1 second to cast.  (I love my froggie racial DS but it's 30second duration so ALWAYS cast after engagement)  Our AoE has a 2 second cast time.  Takes a full second to mend. Takes a full second to use self cure.  Potions take 3 seconds to cast.  Also it seems by your post that you are unaware that there are TWO caps affecting haste.  There is a haste cap of 100% and a DELAY cap of 0.8.  Because of delay cap a 1.2 speed weapon can't take advantage of the full haste cap, you need 1.6 or slower.  Also as of now criticals are working exactly like procs in that they are weighted to happen the same over time regardless of delay.  You don't crit more by swinging more.  And even forgetting all the other things that take longer than 0.5 to cast you still lose a swing every time you "queue" an art by clicking the next one before your current has actually fired off.</p><p>And this time I'll leave out the sarcasm and assume you really didn't know that crits are weighted just like procs to happen over time regardless of weapon delays, as that makes pretty much everything else you said quite silly.</p><p>As for the damage ratings telling the whole story though, when the dual weilds were boosted in damage rating shortly after DoF the devs themselves stated at the time (long after combat art cast times were largely made 0.5) that the dual wield weapons had to have a higher damage rating in order to get closer to the dps from a two hand weapon.  Previous to this update same teir crafted dual wields added up to exactly the damage rating of a two hand and performed nowhere close to it in dps.  The gap has been lessened but does still exist.</p>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>And this time I'll leave out the sarcasm and assume you really didn't know that crits are weighted just like procs to happen over time regardless of weapon delays, as that makes pretty much everything else you said quite silly.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote>Can you point to some developer-sourced information that definitively confirms this.  It makes sense for procs to be normalized so that slow and fast weapon users get same damage benefit from procs over time.  However, this makes no sense in terms of crits.  Slower weapons hit harder and thus have more dmg benefit per crit, but fast weapons should have more crits resulting in the same net damage over time.  If crits are handled the same way as procs do now, than that's just clearly wrong and needs to be changed.

[Code2501]

<div></div><div><hr></div><div><blockquote><p>Dagoo7:</p><p></p><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>And this time I'll leave out the sarcasm and assume you really didn't know that crits are weighted just like procs to happen over time regardless of weapon delays, as that makes pretty much everything else you said quite silly.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote>Can you point to some developer-sourced information that definitively confirms this.  It makes sense for procs to be normalized so that slow and fast weapon users get same damage benefit from procs over time.  However, this makes no sense in terms of crits.  Slower weapons hit harder and thus have more dmg benefit per crit, but fast weapons should have more crits resulting in the same net damage over time.  If crits are handled the same way as procs do now, than that's just clearly wrong and needs to be changed.</div><div><hr></div><p> </p><p>I Concur, Neither have I seen a Dev post confirming your suggested method of implementation nor would it make sense to do it that way. Procs needed to be normalised to prevent fast weapons from out dpsing slow weapons. As crits are based on a percentage of actual dmg dealt no normalisation is required.</p><p>I have doubts the devs would be ignorant enought of the combat system they built to unballance dps by implementing Crits in the way you suggest.</p>

[Code2501]

<div></div><p></p><hr><p>Code2501:</p><p>"<font color="#ffff00"><em>The delay benefit due to CA's was largely made nul from changes in LU13 and due to the higher dmg rating on 2 DW combined over 1 2hander is <u>open to debate by only the most pedantic of personalities</u>.</em></font>"</p><p>Nacireen:</p><p>Yes MOST abilities had their casting times lowered to 0.5sec but not ALL.  Our lovely creature masters are all 1 second casts.  Any racial buffs you may have are also 1 second to cast.  (I love my froggie racial DS but it's 30second duration so ALWAYS cast after engagement)  Our AoE has a 2 second cast time.  Takes a full second to mend. Takes a full second to use self cure.  Potions take 3 seconds to cast.  Also it seems by your post that you are unaware that there are TWO caps affecting haste.  There is a haste cap of 100% and a DELAY cap of 0.8.  Because of delay cap a 1.2 speed weapon can't take advantage of the full haste cap, you need 1.6 or slower.  Also as of now criticals are working exactly like procs in that they are weighted to happen the same over time regardless of delay.  You don't crit more by swinging more.  And even forgetting all the other things that take longer than 0.5 to cast you still lose a swing every time you "queue" an art by clicking the next one before your current has actually fired off.</p><p></p><hr><p>Enough said really.</p>

[Cyngii]

<div>At this point i'm pretty flexible when it comes to DW or 2h.  More or less I stick to my guns of use the best weapon I've got in my bag at the given time.  The beauty of being a brawler is when tanking we don't get a significant loss of defense when using a 2h weapon versus the plate classes not being able to use a shield.  The major issue then becomes agro control which from what i've seen lately doesn't really make that much of a difference.  I usually start off a new expansion with a good 2h weapon since it's usually easier to come up with 1 good 2h versus 2 DW initially, then fill in/upgrade as things become availabe.</div><div> </div><div>I just dinged 65, switched in my Grizzelfazzle (sp?), and the damage increase was very noticeable over prismatic 2.0+T7 weapon combo i had been using.  I had 100% haste + 26% DPS increase from Inquisitor in group and the hits from the 2h were tight... 450-850hp every 1.25 seconds wasn't too shabby.  I was too tired when i dinged to fire up Combatstats and run comparisons, but i'll do some of that tonight (i'm speculating the damage difference will be significant... my attack rating went up almost 90 with the 2h).  Now if i had dual T6 fabled weapons or dual T7 legendary weapons I'm not sure if it would have been as noticeable, which like I said above is the #1 factor... what do you already have, and what can you get your hands on?  I'm not sure if there is a big advantage either way at this point IMO... until people start getting a lot of fabled T7 raid loot I would just say use what's best (stats+DR+procs), or whatever fits your playing style. </div>

[Zooce]

<div>I'm 55 at the moment and went for two crafted imbued T6 cestii for 3pp, very nice weapons but you know what - I miss those big hits! Also my usual group is with an Inq & Zerker so Haste is aften around the 140% - I reckon with the haste plus the CA spamming I would be wasting a lot fewer hits with a nice slow 2H (see above posters). I'm gonna switch back to a nice slow 2 hander when I get the chance,</div><div> </div>

[Jerhico]

<div></div><div>Grizzlefazzle's Greatstaff is simply amazing and IMHO a tad overpowered for the amount of effort required to obtain it.</div><div> </div><div>I'm a huge fan of dual-wield, and love the extra stats a pair of solid dual-wielders can apply.  I also like being able to bring two weapon-based procs to bear on my opponents.</div><div> </div><div>With Griz's staff, I can just go into autoattack and watch the huge numbers roll in.  Non-flurry combat arts become literally something to do in between swings.</div>

[Cyngii]

<div>Going back to a quest awhile back on this thread, you would need to have DW weapons with a slightly higher DR than 2H for them to be equal (which is why they upped the damage of of DW weapons awhile back).  The reason being the DR doesn't take into account missed attacks.  While not tanking your hit percentage should be really high just for argument sake say 90%.  With a single 2H weapon you will hit 90% of the time... with DW weapons each weapon has a 90% chance to hit so you only have a 81% chance of them both hitting.  With that example of 90% hit percentage (and all other stats being the same), you would need a DW combined DR of about 11% higher to be equivilent.  Oh yeah disclaimer note... DR doesn't take into account procs, buffs, etc so it's more or less a tool to help judge weapons.</div><div> </div><div>With all that being said i did some parsing last night in the Palace of the Awakened versus level 67 aviaks (i'm level 65).  The group makeup was 70 dirge, 70 fury, 70 guardian, 69 Conjurer, 70 illusionist, and myself 65 monk.  With my DW setup of prismatic 2.0 and T7 weapon my combined damage rating was a paltry 84.8.  with a fairly small sample set of 10 kills I averaged between 350-410 dps.  I then switched to the 2h and with Grizzlefazzle which has DR of 91.2 (i believe) I was averaging between 460-540 dps.  So yeah the DR of the 2H was a bit higher, but pow if it wasn't a huge dps increase.  Out of the abovementioned group members the only one that was competition was the conjurer, which since we were killing mobs pretty fast a lot depended on timing for him.  All in all i was way happy with the 2H.  I'm very curious to see what the wurslayer would do with DR of 101+.  I'd also like to get my mitts on some DW weapons with DR of 55+ that i've seen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Raage]

<div><font size="2"><p>My .02 on this subject is completely non-scientific, but it's my observations, so here it is. After reading this post I decided to try a 2hb weapon and see if I noticed a diff. I intend to use CS or ACT at some point to parse, but haven't gotten to it yet. Based upon just one eve of soloing blues in BS for a few, then mostly taking on yellow cons in Bonemire (lvl 65-67), I can say that I "felt" as if I was destroying things w/ 2hb.</p><p>I have always loved DW, and frankly from 30-64 (64 is when I picked up the Strifewing Bo, which I know is a big step down from Grizz's, even) I always felt as if DW did more damage more quickly. That Bo was tearing stuff apart. Now, I'm not sure how big a diff a change in my tactics was, but I made sure to not queue any CA's. I would let each run thru prior to launching the next. I was fighting in Off stance.</p><p>At some point I will load a parser and see if it's my imagination or not. The DW I'm using are the Stifewing Claw and the Ravsectian Shredder.</p></font></div>

[Shankonia]

<div></div><div>Take all of your mathematics and throw it out the window.</div><div> </div><div>I have always been a DW advocate, and will most likely use them again once I get some more adequate raid drops.  Fact is, with Ravasection Shredder and Cudgel of Devout, it takes me much longer, and I always have to FD in order to kill a grp of 7-8 lvl 60 mobs at the same time.  With Grizzlefazzles, I do not.  I stand tall and kill them all, no FD, then I harvest until the next set.</div><div> </div><div>When in grps, I have coined Grizzelfazzle's as "The Aggro Stick" because unless I take my time, I'm pulling it off the tank when using this weapon.  This goes likewise when tanking because it really does make it easier for me to hold aggro. </div><div> </div><div>Here is the thing though.  Grizzlefazzles is only better than strifewing or the Staff of Enlightenment (my #2 choice) when used with CA's inbetween swings.  Monk's get quick cast damage CA's, and when the power is there, the Grizz is the best damage doer I have.  During a long fight however, or after i've been rezzed and have no power, or if I have to run afk real quick and auto attack, I always switch to Enlightement in order to swing more and hence do more damage.</div><div> </div><div>I really don't see why you all are trying to make mathematical sense of it all.  Test the weapons out and you will quickly notice what gives you the best results.  The differences to me are obvious. </div><div> </div>

[Shankonia]

<div></div><div>To sum up my last post there.  2H over DW ftw.  Of those available, Grizzlefazzles is best.</div><div> </div><div>T5 & T6 weapons.  DW ftw.</div><div> </div><div>It's not a matter of which type to use, it's a matter of using the best possible equipment.  Equal damage rating on a 2H vs. the sum damage rating on 2 DW's - 2H is better and in many cases, better even when the 2H rating is lower than the sum of the DW.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Xendo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I'm partial to using the Staff of Enlightment for most situations it's very consistant in the damage being without a proc and its 2 sec delay (which is 1 sec with 100% haste) is a nice pace to drop 1 CA between auto attack hits. I usually won't be burning them up too quickly and have a CA rdy after an auto attack swing.  Most DW weapons are auto swings come close to waiting till after the CA lands to swing cuz they are too fast (especially with monks it's not really an issue with Bruisers).   There was also a post somewhere that mentioned that you can't compare combat rating numbers between DW and 2H cuz they specifically stated they DW numbers will be higher cuz they factor in the chance to miss with each hand.  I don't have really good T7 legendary DWs to really test this out (Ravasectian Shrededer isn't really convinceing me so far).  I've become rather untrusting of looking directly at the Combat rating numbers.   Grizz Staff is nice too just the longer delay bothers me a little plus I'm not all that fond of the Heirophant Staff look. </p><p>A prime example how weapons are inconsistant is that of the Imbued Ebony Bo staff its rating is far below that of the Staff of Enlightment.  However, check out the min and max damages for both these.  The staff of enlightment is very consistant the range between min damage and max damage is small and is faster.   The ebony bo actually has both a lower minimum but also a higher maximum its all over the place as far as DPS comes (i've done fights with higher DPS on an ebony because the weapon has a higher max in damage (by having hits in the 400s and some crits landing well over 500 damage) Its just inconsistant cuz you run as much risk of having a very poor performance (Hits under 200 damage).  The Staff of Enlightment generally hits pretty solidly in the 250- 350 range and is faster. </p><p>Ok those aren't exactly accurate numbers but they are ballpark figures (as I haven't actually used the ebony bo in a few levels)</p><p>The point I'm making is the rating is hardly an indicator of a weapons damage and DPS potential its actually quite possible to get a lucky run with an ebony bo and be surpiriseingly high on DPS. </p><p> </p><p>For the most part I stick with a consistant 2h weapon unless I need to have Slashing or Piercing damage and the Wurmslayer is promising for half that concern.    </p><p>Message Edited by Xendo on <span class="date_text">03-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:27 AM</span></p>

[Code2501]

<div></div><p>When it comes to T7 the question is now really which is better 2hnd vs dw, cause the answer to that is there comparable. The real question is of the weapons readily available in T7 which is better. The answer to that is that several of teh 2hnders which are readily available are better than the DW weapons that are available. Simply to match something like Grizzle's staff you need 2 x nice DW weapons with a combined DR of about 95 and a heavy proc. because DW like this are not readily available most will choose Grizzle, or one of the other nice 2 handers.</p><p>Ravasect shredder comes close, but for DW to be effective you need 2x good weapons not 1.</p><p>I feel T7 DW will show its worth again once some of the rarer stuff becomes more available like the Twin Calamities.</p>

[Raage]

<div></div><p>on a semi-related note...booo on the graphic for Grizfazzles Great staff. Picked it up the other day. Love the stats but was bummed w/ the look. It's like Using Gandolf's Staff in a Bruce Lee movie...</p><p>(you get the picture I'm trtying to paint <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p>

[Cyngii]

<div></div><div>We were doing the epic trial to finish up the Awakening quest line and a bruiser in guild got a 2hb that if you like monster hits it's for you.  I want to say it's called the Maul of the Warden, and it packs power.  It's got similar stats to the Grizzlefazzle but has HP/power instead of HP only, has a DR of 95 instead of 91.2, and doesn't have a proc.  Now here is the catch... It's got a longer delay, but from the displayed damage range on the weapon description where the Grizzle maxes at 171ish, the Maul maxes at 320.  The bruiser was getting normal hits for the 1500s and crits for almost 1800!!  It's got a long delay (100% haste ftw), but it's a [Removed for Content] Mac truck.</div>

[erinn]

<div></div><p>Great information here, everyone, thanks very much (and keep it coming). <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  From what I'm reading I really need to get ahold of that Grizzfazzle staff.</p><p>Right now, at 63, I've managed to get a Ravasect Shredder and Hammer of Formation for my DW weapons, and an imbued ebony bo staff for 2H.   I still haven't figured out how to parse anything yet or even where to get a parser, but the two setups feel comparable.</p><p>One thing that concerns me are procs.  I know that procs on weapons are adjusted so that slower weapons proc about the same as the faster DW weapons (i.e., an imbued ebony cudgel would proc the same amount of times as a slow imbued ebony bo staff), but does this apply to procs that are on non-weapons as well?  I have those Manacles of Sky, which on a successful melee attack have a 10% chance to proc a stifle.  Should I see the same number of procs in a fight with fast DW weapons, as compared to slow 2H weapons?  It *seemed* like I was seeing it proc more with the DW setup, but I was just eyeballing it (I really need to figure out this parsing stuff).</p>

[Cyngii]

<div>I would definitely pick The Grizz up to have in your arsenal since the quest is relative quick.  However it isn't equipable til like level 65 so you've got a few levels before you can even use it.  I haven't read anything about item procs being normalized, but I can tell you that the menacles proc plenty with the Grizzle.  2 monks with Grizzle (and the menacles) can just about keep a target perma stifled (if not keep it stifled).</div>

[diamondma]

ok imma jump in this now =)first off u cant compare t6 dw's to t7 legendary 2handers....if u want a fair comparision as to which is better then pickup a pair of t7 crafted dwr's and a t7 crafted 2h and see what results u get. thats if u wanna argue the difference between dw and 2h.when it comes to raiding for brawlers if u are comparing t7-t7 then dw is going to edge out 2h just because of the way the current combat system is setup.ur right about the fact that a weapon cannot swing faster than .8 but what u failed to realize is that at 100% haste if ur weapon would be below that cap then it is tacked on as extra dmg.   .8 is just the delay on the game displaying a hit if u go below this the game just starts lumping dmg together.the problem u will run into when using a 2h is on yellow and orange mobs is u lose a ton of dps when u miss. the strifewing bo is nice because it hits for 2k sometimes but when u miss u have to wait another 2 secs for it to swing again causing a huge void in dps. if you ask most of the old school raid monks they will let u know that most of our dmg on raids comes from auto attack and not ca's.as far as chance to crit goes  there is no way they work on the 3 sec delay that procs do afaik. ive hit 3 crits in a row with my dw'rs capped at 1sec.once again people be civil there is no reason to be sarcastic or try and cut another person down because ultimately if a dev didnt post it then u have no real way of knowing its true. lol and even when they do post it sometimes its not right.<div></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:ok imma jump in this now =)first off u cant compare t6 dw's to t7 legendary 2handers....if u want a fair comparision as to which is better then pickup a pair of t7 crafted dwr's and a t7 crafted 2h and see what results u get. thats if u wanna argue the difference between dw and 2h.when it comes to raiding for brawlers if u are comparing t7-t7 then dw is going to edge out 2h just because of the way the current combat system is setup.ur right about the fact that a weapon cannot swing faster than .8 but what u failed to realize is that at 100% haste if ur weapon would be below that cap then it is tacked on as extra dmg.   .8 is just the delay on the game displaying a hit if u go below this the game just starts lumping dmg together.the problem u will run into when using a 2h is on yellow and orange mobs is u lose a ton of dps when u miss. the strifewing bo is nice because it hits for 2k sometimes but when u miss u have to wait another 2 secs for it to swing again causing a huge void in dps. if you ask most of the old school raid monks they will let u know that most of our dmg on raids comes from auto attack and not ca's.as far as chance to crit goes  there is no way they work on the 3 sec delay that procs do afaik. ive hit 3 crits in a row with my dw'rs capped at 1sec.once again people be civil there is no reason to be sarcastic or try and cut another person down because ultimately if a dev didnt post it then u have no real way of knowing its true. lol and even when they do post it sometimes its not right.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Ok before even responding to your post I do have to say that it seems I was wrong about the crit thing.  I did dozens of parses and over time got the SAME amount of crits no matter what weapons I used.  Not same amount of crit damage but same AMOUNT of procs this was testing with a RGF for the super high delay and even using some fast dw weps with 100% haste I never got more than 1 or 2 difference in number of crits just the ones on the higher delay weapons did more extra damage so the tests I did SEEMED to show they were normalized, so I forgot about it.  After reading so many disagreeing I went back and now I do crit almost twice as much with the dual wields as I do with a slower 2h wep.  I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong (after I'm sure I am...) and this is one where I need to do so.</p><p>Now on to yer post. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You couldn't be more wrong on the haste/delay cap bit, and I'd LOVE to see data that even hints there may be extra damage assigned in situations where you are hasted above where delay cap allows it to affect your weapon.  More than likely if you did test it you failed to notice a dps buff and attributed that extra damage to the affect you mentioned.  We know about the delay cap because it was TESTED.  Tons of us have done parses and tried to see what does/doesn't improve dps, and after reading your statemnts here I did a quick 5 fights each with a 1.4 speed wep (2x Bonecleave t7 treasured) at both 60% haste (still within haste/delay cap) and at 99.8% which exceeds delay cap for that wep and there was no more than a 2-3 dps difference in any of them.  This was done entirely on autoattack no specials used.</p><p>As for misses on yellow/orange mobs affecting dps, it only really affects PERCIEVED dps in this fashion, you see less of those lil floaty damage numbers over the mob and think your doing less but your dual wields (unless they add +melee modifiers) are missing the same percentage of the time you just miss lots of little hits rather than missing a few big ones.</p>

[diamondma]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:ok imma jump in this now =)first off u cant compare t6 dw's to t7 legendary 2handers....if u want a fair comparision as to which is better then pickup a pair of t7 crafted dwr's and a t7 crafted 2h and see what results u get. thats if u wanna argue the difference between dw and 2h.when it comes to raiding for brawlers if u are comparing t7-t7 then dw is going to edge out 2h just because of the way the current combat system is setup.ur right about the fact that a weapon cannot swing faster than .8 but what u failed to realize is that at 100% haste if ur weapon would be below that cap then it is tacked on as extra dmg.   .8 is just the delay on the game displaying a hit if u go below this the game just starts lumping dmg together.the problem u will run into when using a 2h is on yellow and orange mobs is u lose a ton of dps when u miss. the strifewing bo is nice because it hits for 2k sometimes but when u miss u have to wait another 2 secs for it to swing again causing a huge void in dps. if you ask most of the old school raid monks they will let u know that most of our dmg on raids comes from auto attack and not ca's.as far as chance to crit goes  there is no way they work on the 3 sec delay that procs do afaik. ive hit 3 crits in a row with my dw'rs capped at 1sec.once again people be civil there is no reason to be sarcastic or try and cut another person down because ultimately if a dev didnt post it then u have no real way of knowing its true. lol and even when they do post it sometimes its not right.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You couldn't be more wrong on the haste/delay cap bit, and I'd LOVE to see data that even hints there may be extra damage assigned in situations where you are hasted above where delay cap allows it to affect your weapon.  More than likely if you did test it you failed to notice a dps buff and attributed that extra damage to the affect you mentioned.  We know about the delay cap because it was TESTED.  Tons of us have done parses and tried to see what does/doesn't improve dps, and after reading your statemnts here I did a quick 5 fights each with a 1.4 speed wep (2x Bonecleave t7 treasured) at both 60% haste (still within haste/delay cap) and at 99.8% which exceeds delay cap for that wep and there was no more than a 2-3 dps difference in any of them.  This was done entirely on autoattack no specials used.</p><p>As for misses on yellow/orange mobs affecting dps, it only really affects PERCIEVED dps in this fashion, you see less of those lil floaty damage numbers over the mob and think your doing less but your dual wields (unless they add +melee modifiers) are missing the same percentage of the time you just miss lots of little hits rather than missing a few big ones.</p><hr></blockquote>since when has 5 fights ever showed anything the gain is minimal but its there my data comes from parses in the number of 100 fights. while still a low number there is still a difference. if i need to go back and parse it again i will. who is this tons of us that u speak of?lol no it effects more than the percieved dmg. like monk avoidance 2h's are streaky, whereas dw'rs are more consistant. im not going to sit here and argue about it just ask around.dont get [Removed for Content] cause u dont like what i say and try to talk to me like a child. it just makes u look like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</span><div></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:ok imma jump in this now =)first off u cant compare t6 dw's to t7 legendary 2handers....if u want a fair comparision as to which is better then pickup a pair of t7 crafted dwr's and a t7 crafted 2h and see what results u get. thats if u wanna argue the difference between dw and 2h.when it comes to raiding for brawlers if u are comparing t7-t7 then dw is going to edge out 2h just because of the way the current combat system is setup.ur right about the fact that a weapon cannot swing faster than .8 but what u failed to realize is that at 100% haste if ur weapon would be below that cap then it is tacked on as extra dmg.   .8 is just the delay on the game displaying a hit if u go below this the game just starts lumping dmg together.the problem u will run into when using a 2h is on yellow and orange mobs is u lose a ton of dps when u miss. the strifewing bo is nice because it hits for 2k sometimes but when u miss u have to wait another 2 secs for it to swing again causing a huge void in dps. if you ask most of the old school raid monks they will let u know that most of our dmg on raids comes from auto attack and not ca's.as far as chance to crit goes  there is no way they work on the 3 sec delay that procs do afaik. ive hit 3 crits in a row with my dw'rs capped at 1sec.once again people be civil there is no reason to be sarcastic or try and cut another person down because ultimately if a dev didnt post it then u have no real way of knowing its true. lol and even when they do post it sometimes its not right.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You couldn't be more wrong on the haste/delay cap bit, and I'd LOVE to see data that even hints there may be extra damage assigned in situations where you are hasted above where delay cap allows it to affect your weapon.  More than likely if you did test it you failed to notice a dps buff and attributed that extra damage to the affect you mentioned.  We know about the delay cap because it was TESTED.  Tons of us have done parses and tried to see what does/doesn't improve dps, and after reading your statemnts here I did a quick 5 fights each with a 1.4 speed wep (2x Bonecleave t7 treasured) at both 60% haste (still within haste/delay cap) and at 99.8% which exceeds delay cap for that wep and there was no more than a 2-3 dps difference in any of them.  This was done entirely on autoattack no specials used.</p><p>As for misses on yellow/orange mobs affecting dps, it only really affects PERCIEVED dps in this fashion, you see less of those lil floaty damage numbers over the mob and think your doing less but your dual wields (unless they add +melee modifiers) are missing the same percentage of the time you just miss lots of little hits rather than missing a few big ones.</p><hr></blockquote>since when has 5 fights ever showed anything the gain is minimal but its there my data comes from parses in the number of 100 fights. while still a low number there is still a difference. if i need to go back and parse it again i will. who is this tons of us that u speak of?lol no it effects more than the percieved dmg. like monk avoidance 2h's are streaky, whereas dw'rs are more consistant. im not going to sit here and argue about it just ask around.dont get [Removed for Content] cause u dont like what i say and try to talk to me like a child. it just makes u look like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>5 fights per haste level should have been more than enough to see a 40% improvement in haste.  That's what I added.  ONE fight should have shown a 40% improvement.  Considering the fact that I stated I used no specials, just pure autoattack so the only form of damage I was doing was what haste affects I shouldn't have needed the parser to see the differnence in 40% extra haste.</p><p>And the idea of dual wield carrying an advantage when misses are more likely is quite frankly absurd, though I tried to phrase it more nicely the first time.  If you are only 70% likely to hit with each swing but get 100 swings with a dual wield setup then 30 of those swings missed.  Now replace that with a comparable 2h wep (meaning same damage over time) that only got 20 swings in the same timeframe would have only missed 6 times.  In BOTH cases 30% of the damage is lost.  Not only is the math for this comparison braindead simple but when they redid dual wield to get less riposte's the devs actually stated that the boost to DW damage rating at same teir was do to misses being a LARGER factor for dual wield than for 2h weapons.</p>

[Cyngii]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:ok imma jump in this now =)first off u cant compare t6 dw's to t7 legendary 2handers....<hr></blockquote>The reason i was comparing T6 dw's versus T7 legendary 2h is I don't think most monks are going to be replacing prismatic 2.0 or fabled T6 with a T7 crafted weapon... bar none.  If you look around even a month after the KoS came out a lot of monks are still using T6 raid loot weapons if using DW.  Up to now i've yet to see any T7 legendary DWs that WOWed me... When it comes to availablity it's hard to beat 2h right now.

[Raage]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Raage wrote:<div><font size="2"><p>My .02 on this subject is completely non-scientific, but it's my observations, so here it is. After reading this post I decided to try a 2hb weapon and see if I noticed a diff. I intend to use CS or ACT at some point to parse, but haven't gotten to it yet. Based upon just one eve of soloing blues in BS for a few, then mostly taking on yellow cons in Bonemire (lvl 65-67), I can say that I "felt" as if I was destroying things w/ 2hb.</p><p>I have always loved DW, and frankly from 30-64 (64 is when I picked up the Strifewing Bo, which I know is a big step down from Grizz's, even) I always felt as if DW did more damage more quickly. That Bo was tearing stuff apart. Now, I'm not sure how big a diff a change in my tactics was, but I made sure to not queue any CA's. I would let each run thru prior to launching the next. I was fighting in Off stance.</p><p>At some point I will load a parser and see if it's my imagination or not. The DW I'm using are the Stifewing Claw and the Ravsectian Shredder.</p></font></div><hr></blockquote><p>So ran thru some quick tests this afternoon. Using the Strifewing Claw/ Ravsectian Shredder vs. Grizz's. Mind you this is 30 min tests for each in Mixed stance. I'm lvl 66, vs the bugs on Isle of Ravsectian (?) in Bonemire. All were yellow to me, ranging from 67-68 I believe. Also this doesn't show the damage I took in each fight. (I know not really scientific, but here 'tis anyhoo). I'll try to get more specific later.</p><p>DW (1st # is the avg, 2nd is avg minus the high & low totals) = 403 / 405</p><p>2hb = 491 / 496</p><p>Going w/ DW I was also able to use Eagle Spin at a lvl 4 & I have a 1.3%  add'l chance to crit. Just so's ya know.</p><p> </p><p><font color="#cccccc">*changed to add stance type & correct % chance to crit. And then for spelling and other stuff...Swear I'm not bumping <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p>Message Edited by Raage on <span class="date_text">03-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:23 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Raage on <span class="date_text">03-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:34 PM</span></p>

[erinn]

<div></div><p>I finally got a parser (ACT) and did some VERY informal tests over the weekend.  Mostly I was playing around trying to figure out how best to interpret things.</p><p>I was in Nest, duo'ing with my mystic.  Fighting even-con (I was 64.8 at the time), 64^^ mobs in groups of three (those ones that spawn and charge at the owl guards - I'd intercept them and fight). </p><p>I tried two combinations of weapons:</p><p>1) DW with Ravasectian Shredder and Hammer of Formation: I was doing right around 400dps in offensive stance.</p><p>2) 2H with Strifewing Bo: Right around 440-450 dps in offensive stance</p><p>Hardly a good comparison, though - the Strifewing Bo is a higher DR class than the other two.</p><p>To do a really good test,  I think what I need to do is get a pair of crafted ebony cudgels, and compare them against a crafted ebony bo staff.  One would think that SOE would balance those to be the same.    I should find one good mob, do no CA's to it, and see what DPS I do for a set period of time just in auto-attack (say, 30 seconds).    Perhaps a basilisk in Bonemire, though those are yellow to me.  Then FD, switch weapons, and do the same against the exact same mob.  Repeat that a few times to get a good average, and see how they compare.  The only question is if I want to drop the plat for the cudgels (I have the ebony bo staff already) just to do this testing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>