Fair Play on the Str line

[Dfoley3]

<div>So a lot of people are doging what i see as being the most benifical set of AS in the game for dps monks.</div><div> </div><div>1) our double atk is restricted to unarmed, warriors get it on all weapons but their chance to double atk at rank 8 is far lower</div><div>2) at rank 8 (unless changed today while going live):  We have a 96% chance to double atk with a 160% dps modifier.</div><div>3) Current parses show fists at 1.5 sec delay, very similar to ALL dual weild combos. </div><div>4) Fist dmg lvls as you lvl, at 60 you hit for roughly 250 on avg, max of about 330 with self buffs</div><div>5) Something ive seen mentioned in a few threads, especialy ones regarding the large majority of t7 weapons being flaged as treasured (even the rare crafted) is that the devs are working on a way to remove weapon teir requirements, thus making our fists an eligable candidate on raid mobs.</div><div>6) Ill spare you the math, but with max double atk, this line would make our lvl 60 fists do 2x 650 dmg every 0.8 seconds.</div><div>7) with current self buffs and t6 fabled dual weilders, avg hit is roughly 2x 300 every 0.8 seconds</div><div> </div><div>So in summary, we lose a lot from using fists, mainly upward of 40 agi/str/sta 2 procs, 200 hp/power, and resists.  We also lose other potential AS that benifit tanking more, and have more applicable dps benifits (aka ones that currently would work on raid mobs).</div><div> </div><div> Thats a ton, in my book, but as far as dpsing goes, we are given the average joe monk the ability to double the dps that t6 raid fabled monk would do.  Most tanks wont take it cause its to large of a sacrifice, but i gave up tanking a while back for dps.   On average raid mobs (single target) i can crank out up to 650 dps and consistantly be in the top 10.   With this AS i see it as being very possible to keep competing with spells like apocylpse the new ice nova or whatever wizies get.</div>

[MadBarman]

<div></div>As far as I know there is a 100% DPS mod cap same as haste, I could be wrong.Also the stats, health, power and possible imbues and other effects on weapons makes going unarmed useless. To even consider it I would have to be able to guarantee doing at least 1.5 times the amount of weapon damage.[edit] Just did some maths with this. If there is no dps cap then it could be doing a lot of damage. Still I'm not sure its worth losing all the stats and effects on weapons.At least it's something I would consider now.<div></div><p>Message Edited by MadBarman on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:20 AM</span></p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div>So a lot of people are doging what i see as being the most benifical set of AS in the game for dps monks.</div><div> </div><div>1) our double atk is restricted to unarmed, warriors get it on all weapons but their chance to double atk at rank 8 is far lower<font color="#ff6600">Yeah but they will double attack with both weapons if they DW.</font></div><div>2) at rank 8 (unless changed today while going live):  We have a 96% chance to double atk with a 160% dps modifier.<font color="#ff6600">DPS cap is 100%</font></div><div>3) Current parses show fists at 1.5 sec delay, very similar to ALL dual weild combos.<font color="#ff6600">Again unarmed is 1hand weapon style not DW.</font></div><div>4) Fist dmg lvls as you lvl, at 60 you hit for roughly 250 on avg, max of about 330 with self buffs<font color="#ff6600">And if you put ANY 1hand weapon in there you would do the same if not more damage.</font></div><div>5) Something ive seen mentioned in a few threads, especialy ones regarding the large majority of t7 weapons being flaged as treasured (even the rare crafted) is that the devs are working on a way to remove weapon teir requirements, thus making our fists an eligable candidate on raid mobs.<font color="#ff6600">Still wont fix that fact that we loose so much in stats and damage.</font></div><div>6) Ill spare you the math, but with max double atk, this line would make our lvl 60 fists do 2x 650 dmg every 0.8 seconds.<font color="#ff6600">Umm you only swing with ONE hand while unarmed. So you would swing for 1x650 every 0.8 seconds.</font></div><div>7) with current self buffs and t6 fabled dual weilders, avg hit is roughly 2x 300 every 0.8 seconds</div><div> </div><div>So in summary, we lose a lot from using fists, mainly upward of 40 agi/str/sta 2 procs, 200 hp/power, and resists.  We also lose other potential AS that benifit tanking more, and have more applicable dps benifits (aka ones that currently would work on raid mobs).</div><div> </div><div> Thats a ton, in my book, but as far as dpsing goes, we are given the average joe monk the ability to double the dps that t6 raid fabled monk would do.  Most tanks wont take it cause its to large of a sacrifice, but i gave up tanking a while back for dps.   On average raid mobs (single target) i can crank out up to 650 dps and consistantly be in the top 10.   With this AS i see it as being very possible to keep competing with spells like apocylpse the new ice nova or whatever wizies get.</div><hr></blockquote>Your whole thread is based on wrong information. Unarmed combat is not DW.</span></div>

[MadBarman]

He isn't syaing unarmed is dual wield. He is saying that unarmed 1handed with a 96% chance to double attack is pretty much dual wielding in effect.Also warriors wont double attack with both dual wield weapons as it is an applied proc and as per the recent changes only proc on the primary hand.I'm not sure about the DPS cap would be good if this could be checked.<div></div>

[Dfoley3]

<div></div><div></div><div>1) they get a total chance of 16% to double attack from main hand, but thats 8 points from a raid main tank to put into dps.....</div><div>2) dps is not caped at 100%, its very easy to get 150% dps mod and it still has an effect over 100%</div><div>3) yes its one handed if unarmed, BUT IF U HAVE 100% double atk, you perform like your dual weilding one handers</div><div>4) yes weapons CURRENTlY do more dmg, thats the point of the dps mod, to make fists MORE dmg then current 1handed weapons a monk could use</div><div>5) again, this is a DPS path, what do you need hp and sta and agi and resists for while dpsing?</div><div>6)  DOUBLE ATK =  SWING TWICE,  so youd swing 2 times every 0.8 seconds.....</div><div> </div><div>becareful what you post if you cant read.  >Your whole thread is based on wrong information. Unarmed combat is not DW.<</div><div>and your whole post was based on not knowing what double attack is........</div><p>Message Edited by Dfoley323 on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:22 AM</span></p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>1) they get a total chance of 16% to double attack from main hand, but thats 8 points from a raid main tank to put into dps.....</div><div>2) dps is not caped at 100%, its very easy to get 150% dps mod and it still has an effect over 100%</div><div>3) yes its one handed if unarmed, BUT IF U HAVE 100% double atk, you perform like your dual weilding one handers</div><div>4) yes weapons CURRENTlY do more dmg, thats the point of the dps mod, to make fists MORE dmg then current 1handed weapons a monk could use</div><div>5) again, this is a DPS path, what do you need hp and sta and agi and resists for while dpsing?</div><div>6)  DOUBLE ATK =  SWING TWICE,  so youd swing 2 times every 0.8 seconds.....</div><div> </div><div>becareful what you post if you cant read.  >Your whole thread is based on wrong information. Unarmed combat is not DW.<</div><div>and your whole post was based on not knowing what double attack is........</div><p>Message Edited by Dfoley323 on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:22 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>My bad I failed to see what you were talking about.As for the DPS cap not being 100%. The most I have seen was 120% and I saw no difference over 100% to 120%. The DPS parses were the same. Maybe a sting of bad luck but I doubt it.</span></div>

[MadBarman]

Best way to check for a dps cap is to get over 100% dps and examine your weapons. The get more dps and examine them again. Of course you nee dthe weapon examine damage to be working first....<div></div>

[x0rtrun]

DPS, like haste, is capped at 100%<div></div>

[MadBarman]

then whats the point of having a skill that can give you 160% DPS, er nevermind, I forgot we have to have pointless abilities.<div></div>

[x0rtrun]

We also have abilities that can give us 150% haste if we really wanted. It doesn't mean that 150% haste will have any effect over 100%Just like with over the cap haste, you can get -DPS% debuffs put on you. Having over 100% would just give you room to escape some of the negative effects, just like more than 100% haste negates the effects of slows.<div></div>

[Dfoley3]

<div></div><p>dps, like haste, is SAID to cap at 100%</p><p>both writen values go over 100%, u just get diminished returns on both,  How is it inteded to be? i dont know if its supposed to be a straight cut off or what, but you definatly can right click on a weapon and examine the dmg to go up from 100 % dps mod to 120% dps mod on live servers</p>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<div></div><p>dps, like haste, is SAID to cap at 100%</p><p>both writen values go over 100%, u just get diminished returns on both,  How is it inteded to be? i dont know if its supposed to be a straight cut off or what, but you definatly can right click on a weapon and examine the dmg to go up from 100 % dps mod to 120% dps mod on live servers</p><hr></blockquote>Have you ever thought thats a reporting bug just like having haste of 150%? I'll see if I can find the parses but a Brusier guildie parsed having 100% DPS and 120% DPS and while it was only about 20 mobs each parse the average was the same.</span></div>

[MadBarman]

Parsing isn't going to show much difference as dps mods only effect autoattack damage. Best way to check will be to examine weapons at 2 different levels of dps above 100%. If the weapon examine is working anyway.<div></div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>MadBarman wrote:Parsing isn't going to show much difference as dps mods only effect autoattack damage. Best way to check will be to examine weapons at 2 different levels of dps above 100%. If the weapon examine is working anyway.<div></div><hr></blockquote>These were auto-attack only parses.Also like I said above you can't believe any of the numbers being reported. Just remove your weapons and watch your attack rating skyrocket. I believe the only true way is thru parsing.</span></div>

[Kota]

i think you're on to something.  always hearing about ppl wanting to fight with just fists, well here you go.   heck the more i think about it, the more i like it.  you don't hafta use weapons if you don't wanna, but it'll cost you.   doubt i'd ever give up the stats i get from using weapons tho.<div></div>

[Baelas]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Lahkota13 wrote:i think you're on to something.  always hearing about ppl wanting to fight with just fists, well here you go.   heck the more i think about it, the more i like it.  you don't hafta use weapons if you don't wanna, but it'll cost you.   doubt i'd ever give up the stats i get from using weapons tho.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I may very well be mistaken, but I do believe you can weild an dualwield weapon (such as a fistwrap) in the offhand slot and keep the primary empty, and still have fists operating as if the weapon wasn't there. Thus only losing the stats of one of the weapons, at least.</span></div>

[Kronadin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Baelas wrote:<div><span></span> </div><div><span>I may very well be mistaken, but I do believe you can weild an dualwield weapon (such as a fistwrap) in the offhand slot and keep the primary empty, and still have fists operating as if the weapon wasn't there. Thus only losing the stats of one of the weapons, at least.</div></span><hr></blockquote>Yes, that works -- but it doesn't solve the str-line problem, because it explicitly states that BOTH primary and secondary must be empty. :smileymad:

[Baelas]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Kronadin wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Baelas wrote:<div><span></span> </div><div><span>I may very well be mistaken, but I do believe you can weild an dualwield weapon (such as a fistwrap) in the offhand slot and keep the primary empty, and still have fists operating as if the weapon wasn't there. Thus only losing the stats of one of the weapons, at least.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, that works -- but it doesn't solve the str-line problem, because it explicitly states that BOTH primary and secondary must be empty. :smileymad:<hr></blockquote>Ah! I completely forgot that! Thanks for pointing it out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Baelas wrote:<div><span>I may very well be mistaken, but I do believe you can weild an dualwield weapon (such as a fistwrap) in the offhand slot and keep the primary empty, and still have fists operating as if the weapon wasn't there. Thus only losing the stats of one of the weapons, at least.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah but thet AA's sayIf Primary slot is emptyIf Secondary slot is emptySo in order to use these AA's you can't have ANY weapon equipt.</span></div>

[Ceist X'Ta]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:<p>dps, like haste, is SAID to cap at 100%</p><p>both writen values go over 100%, u just get diminished returns on both,  How is it inteded to be? i dont know if its supposed to be a straight cut off or what, but you definatly can right click on a weapon and examine the dmg to go up from 100 % dps mod to 120% dps mod on live servers</p><hr></blockquote>Have you ever thought thats a reporting bug just like having haste of 150%? I'll see if I can find the parses but a Brusier guildie parsed having 100% DPS and 120% DPS and while it was only about 20 mobs each parse the average was the same.</span></div><hr></blockquote></span><p>That Cap for both is 100%. When you see anything over 100% (i.e. 150%) its not a Bug. That’s just the total Haste/DPS mod available to you with your current Buffs/Weapons ect.. The reason they let this bleed through is so that you can see it. A lot of mobs Debuff your Attack Speed and DPS, so if you don't know how much Total modifier to each you have, you won't know exactly how much your being effected or how much you can stand to loose.It would be like this.. your Visible Haste is 150%, but we all know your cap is 100%. A mob debuffs you 50% (just for argument sake) and then you look at your haste mod and it says 100%. You see the debuff and the effect. But if the extra 50% wasn't visible, then you would see 100% before the debuff and then 100% after. :smileysurprised: And that just wouldn't make sense to most people, especially if they didn't know what their actually available Mod was. (the other 50% their not seeing)</p><p>Think of it as a Soft-Cap vs a Hard-Cap<span></span></p><div></div>

[Siberia2]

Who cares about the DPS%, It's a freakin' double attack one hander! With pressure point we can hit anything, at least as far as I have seen, and if they don't nerf the % to double attack it would rock. All I can ask for now is to leave the % be, and maybe give us a Deaggro :p.Also, a friend of mine has informed me that a group of his found some gloves, that were equipable in both glove slot and weapon slot.. maybe, just maybe.. :o<div></div>