Why is DW so much better than 2H?

[Goozman]

<div></div><div>I'm sure this is brought up a lot, but I wanted to test it a bit and see for myself.</div><div>I'm usin me 42 monk. My 2 weapon samples are Royal Great Flail and 2 Pristine Imbued Augmented Cesti. Total haste for all fights was 62%. This was all against level 30 clay guardians in RoV.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">Average fights using RGF:Crushing - 132.25DPS</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000">Ancient Flame - 13.32DPS</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">Average fights using Pristine Imbued Augmented Cesti:</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000">Slashing - 135.25DPS</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000">Gleaming Strike - 8.56DPS</font></div><div> </div><div>One might argue that this sounds about where it should be... but I'm comparing a difficult to obtain fabled 2 hander here with 2 weapons you can buy for 25g. I realize that with the slowness of the two hander, you can do abilities inbetween without sacrificing auto-attack damage, but is that enough to warrant such a difference in auto-attack damage? I can't imagine how much better 2 fabled dual wield weapons are.</div><div> </div><div>I really think 2 hander auto attack should be increased here :smileyindifferent:</div><div> </div><div>Update: I was interested in exploring it further, so I tried a dozen or so fights using either weapons with abilities as well. I wanted to try and maximize how much I did with either weapon. I was pretty shocked with my results. I also took the liberty of removing the dps added from ancient flame and gleaming strike, as I am trying to compare damage rating of a fabled 2 hander vs legendary dual wielders.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><div><font color="#ff0000">Average fights using RGF:216.02DPS</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">Average fights using Pristine Imbued Augmented Cesti:</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000">202.96DPS</font></div><div> </div><div>I was expecting the RGF to be much higher in this situation, but it wasn't at all. Now I think, more than ever, 2 hand damage needs to be increased, if this fabled weapon is hardly outdoing those crafted ones.</div><div> </div><div>For anyone who is interested, here's the numbers with the 2 procs included. 249.98DPS from Flail, 214.85DPS from Cesti</div></div><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:34 PM</span></p>

[Sandheaver]

the ONLY reason i like DW weapons better than two-handed weapons (such as the bo staff) is because the animations are FAR cooler on DW weapons, IMHO.<div></div>

[x0rtrun]

Crafted stuff has always been a little over the top to keep the crafters in demand and happy. And your final numbers do show the RGF with an advantage over the crafted DW. So it's not THAT far off I think.Dual wield also has the advantage because you have to buy or obtain 2 of them instead of one.The recent dual wield changes are supposed to have brought them to the level they wanted, but perhaps they gave them too much of a bump.Personally I'd like to see 2handed get a little boost to make it a more viable option.<div></div>

[Sandheaver]

one-handed or two-handed weapons are viable if you only have one rare or can only afford one weapon.  you get extra stat bonuses with dual weilds because there are two +9s instead of one +14 (just an example), you have to pay more, therefore they should do more damage.if the investment is higher the reward should be higher.<div></div>

[Goozman]

<div></div><div></div>Don't think ya'll are reading my post. Crafted dual wield weapons are simple and cheap to get. I am using a Royal Great Flail as my 2 hander. It's a fabled 2 hander, with more stats on it than 2 Augmented Cesti combined, and it's auto-attack dps is less. The investment in a rare fabled 2 hander is obviously much higher than 2 crafted weapons.<p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:24 AM</span></p>

[Skratttt]

<div></div><div></div><p>Yes yes you do have a point..... but what about geting 2 Fabled DW weapons VS 1Fabled 2hb weapon...the dual wield combo should outdamage the 2hb ....</p><p>But probably you are right....2 Legendary DW weapons should not = 1 Fabled 2hb....maybe a lil less but not same or more....atm its outdoing the crafted set cause of procs (i would say a lot has to do with the amazing proc ratio of the RGF) by quite a chunk</p><p>It all comes down "to how much dmg u get per your DPK spent" for raiders ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Skratttt on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:48 AM</span></p>

[Deathspell]

>if the investment is higher the reward should be higher.I like 2-handers over DW weapons, why should I be disadvantaged then? Because my bo-staff only required one rare?I should be more lucky/happy if my choice of preference went to DW weapons?That's not really fair imo.<div></div>

[SwissArmySh]

<div></div><div>I always seem to go for the DW option because you get better overall stats from 2 DW weapons than the 2-hander of the same type.  Where is the trade off here apart from the cost difference?</div><div> </div><div>In this case the 2 handed option is for the poorer adventurer unless your willing to sacrifice stat gains for looks.</div><div> </div><div>btw I'm taking about crafted items of the same type/tier</div><div> </div><div>If the stats where bumped up on 2 handers to match DW than i would probably go for a rare imbued 2 hander.  The only way to get better results for a 2 hander is to get a much better quality one ie Fabled over standard handcrafted/legendary.</div><div> </div><div>Then again I could be talking boll*x</div>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>Keep in mind that the difference is so slight that it's not going to be the end of the world. Use whatever you think looks coolest. It not going to make you a crappy monk.If you're so obsessed with maximizing you shouldn't have anything to complain about either, just go with the best weapon you can afford/obtain regardless of what it looks like.What does concern me though is the apparent lack of monk appropriate fabled 2hb. There are plenty of dual wield, but not many 2handers.<div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:45 AM</span></p>

[Goozman]

<div></div><div>Guys, read the initial post. They are not equivalent weapons. The 2 hand weapon is arguably the best pre-dof fabled 2 hand weapon. The dual wield weapons are just imbued augmented, very easy and cheap to get. The 2 hand weapon has more stats on it than the dual wield ones combined, much more. The 2 hander was outdps'd by the cheap/simple to get dual wield weapons.</div><div> </div><div>The weapons I am comparing are not equivalents!</div><div> </div><div>I don't care that 2 legendary dual wield weapons outdamage a legendary 2 hander by a margin of 5-10%, but this is a fabled weapon you can't get til after 50 unless u pay out the butt for it.</div><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:00 PM</span></p>

[x0rtrun]

As I stated in a previous post, the crafted gear came out a little too powerful after LU13. They learned their lesson and you shouldn't expect the same level of uberness out of crafted gear in tiers to follow. They didn't want to alter the stats after the fact because so many people already had the items.Also, the total damage from the RGF with procs and all was above that of the crafted. The weapon as a whole is still better than the crafted, albeit marginally so.It's unfortunate that it's (un)balanced like this, but it's only comparing 2 different weapons in a limited set of encounters and is fairly inconclusive because of that.<div></div>

[2JZG]

<div></div> <p>Message Edited by 2JZGTE on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:01 AM</span></p>

[SwissArmySh]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>x0rtrunks wrote:<div></div>Keep in mind that the difference is so slight that it's not going to be the end of the world. Use whatever you think looks coolest. It not going to make you a crappy monk.If you're so obsessed with maximizing you shouldn't have anything to complain about either, just go with the best weapon you can afford/obtain regardless of what it looks like.What does concern me though is the apparent lack of monk appropriate fabled 2hb. There are plenty of dual wield, but not many 2handers.<div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:45 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Obsessed?  Ok, if you say so.</p><p>I was merely making a point from my own observation of something of a similar nature, however small the difference may be, it is still a valid point. </p><p>And to the OP; I agree there should be a bigger difference, I am just saying that this seems to be common throughout all DW and 2-handers.  Even those of the same type.</p><p> </p>

[soibit]

k im playing a twinked monk in his thirties with legendary and fabled crafted and found gear. i mainly use rare imbued crafted fistwraps and prolly will everytime i reach a new tier. i like the animation. who really cares if you do super super damage, use whatever you want.  all this talk about balencing and nerfing and stuff though....  just an idea, Two handers penalize deflection.  stronger sure why not, but it should be realist and give a penelty to your deflection rate...  well whateva, my two copper.oh and fistwraps use pelts btw which are hella cheaper (at least on lucan) then other rares of the same tier such as wood and metal.<div></div>

[Goozman]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>x0rtrunks wrote:As I stated in a previous post, the crafted gear came out a little too powerful after LU13. They learned their lesson and you shouldn't expect the same level of uberness out of crafted gear in tiers to follow. They didn't want to alter the stats after the fact because so many people already had the items.Also, the total damage from the RGF with procs and all was above that of the crafted. The weapon as a whole is still better than the crafted, albeit marginally so.It's unfortunate that it's (un)balanced like this, but it's only comparing 2 different weapons in a limited set of encounters and is fairly inconclusive because of that.<div></div><hr></blockquote>In my post, you'll see the weapons featured are tier 5, what u said only applies to tier 6, where they made rare crafted stuff too powerful. Comparing tier 5 weapons here. And it is pretty conclusive to me since in the many parses i did to find an average, there were no outliers; all results were about the same.

[x0rtrun]

With LU13 the stats for pretty much everything were tweaked across the board. The t6 stuff is so powerful because the crafted stuff ramped up too soon in the tiers, leaving the T6 stuff no room to go but up. T6 is merely the end result of overpowerful crafted stuff the whole way through.Bottom line though, I do agree with you. 2handers are sucky compared to DW now. I'd like to see this changed. I want to see some really nice fabled, legendary, etc 2hand crush weps that actually rival DW in a meaningful way. At least some reason to use it over DW in certain situations.<div></div>

[Uanelven]

Can I ask a question?   I'm just an occasional 'alt monk' so can't really judge myself as all I use are crafted fistwraps.   I do remember pre-dof discussions here about 2 handers being better in a tanking role due to reposte dmg IIRC.   Has that all changed now?<div></div>

[ArcticBlue182]

dont know if this has been thought about, said or could even be put into the game, but how about if the 2H weapons were better/more effective if you were being more defencive (maybe stances) and the DW weapons were more inline for attacking and being offencive mode, this way each type of weapon has a use and its not just for what looks best, it would also give you something else to think about when fighting, grouping etc.<div></div>

[Goozman]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Uanelven wrote:Can I ask a question?   I'm just an occasional 'alt monk' so can't really judge myself as all I use are crafted fistwraps.   I do remember pre-dof discussions here about 2 handers being better in a tanking role due to reposte dmg IIRC.   Has that all changed now?<div></div><hr></blockquote>It really makes no difference. The only reason it ouwld have been better for a 2 hander was riposting with it, but ripostes are the same damage with whatever weapon.