The mysteries of DW vs 2hander partially revealed!

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>Here's an interesting post by moorgard on how DW and 2handers work in regards to damage, procs, and agro generation.<span><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=3080#M3080">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=3080#M3080</a>It's basically as we've thought. The choice between the types is going to come down to personal preference. The variation between them due to mechanics is slight.</span>The only thing that I still wonder about is our agro proc and whether it is normalized like regular procs, or if it's a plain 50% chance on every hit. If it is simply 50%,  it would mean that the lower the delay the better the agro generation for a monk.I'm starting to suspect that they are normalized as well. When you consider that the recent change to applied procs that limit them to the primary hand only, they have finally leveled the playing field entirely between DW and 2hander to the point where the differences are so minor as to not even worry about. Which is a good thing I suppose. You can now choose whatever you think is cool and feel confident that you're going to perform equally compared to other options.All we're left with for variation is delay and stats. We're already faily limited by delay due to our haste, though even then there isn't all that much waste from having 100% haste and a delay less than 1.6. I'd like to see some parses between the various delays. I wonder if it would even be worth mentioning.<div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class="date_text">01-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:11 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class="date_text">01-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:11 PM</span></p>

[Colossaltitan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>x0rtrunks wrote:<div></div>The only thing that I still wonder about is our agro proc and whether it is normalized like regular procs, or if it's a plain 50% chance on every hit. If it is simply 50%,  it would mean that the lower the delay the better the agro generation for a monk.<hr></blockquote>Bruiser one was "normalized" meaning lower delay = higher aggro generation.If the Bruiser one was, then most definetly the monk one was since they are basically exactly the same.

[Rrawl]

<div></div>I'd still like to see it determined if ripostes are normalized or not... I know ripostes from dual wield were reduced... so I'm guessing they have... I only ever really notice the ripostes when raiding, I could care less about them any other time... But I don't like getting hit without a chance to avoid it, and wonder if dual wielding increases ripostes any.

[Bladewind]

<div></div>I think our hate proc was lumped in with the main hand only change, so it would proc the same if 2 handing or DW.  As already said, a lot of them seem to benormalized by delay in addition.

[Mala-Shea]

<div></div><p>Normalization and everything aside, my experience has always been DW has seemed to create better agro generation when Im tanking. Does it? Apparently not, but I prefer DW based on the uncertainty of the Dragon Stance proc line...does it use the same formula to calculate proc rate? So, for me, it is merely what weapon(s) create the most dmg.</p><p>I wish there was a distinct difference between weapons per utility (tanking vs. dps). It would make weapon choices more practical for sure. But, all and all, much ado about nothing imho.</p><p> </p><p>Slapp</p><p>60 Monk</p><p>Heroes Fate</p><p>Grobb</p><p>  </p><p>  </p>

[Colossaltitan]

<div></div><div></div>dw better for both, unless u 100% haste, oop then the longest delay is your best option for anything.<p>Message Edited by Colossaltitan on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:31 AM</span></p>

[Sandheaver]

I'm guessing that it is based on your primary weapon slot, even if you dual wield.  I was fighting in permafrost last night and I noticed that when I turned on Shocking Hand (or whatever its called - the 8-hit electrical shock self-buff) it would only proc when my primary slot weapon hit.  if my primary missed but my secondary hit, shocking hand did nothing.I imagine that it would be the same for every other proc, including agro.  I think they go by just the primary weapon slot, so dual wield would mean nothing.<div></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Colossaltitan wrote:<div></div><div></div>dw better for both, unless u 100% haste, oop then the longest delay is your best option for anything.<p>Message Edited by Colossaltitan on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:31 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Dual wield DOES still eat more riposte though less than it did before changes there is still a significant difference versus a 2h weapon.  Also now that procs can only fire off the main hand a 2hand weapon will generate FAR more agro over time using our proc, and the slower it is the better.  My monk using RGF has a macro key for use in groups now challenging any wizzy, warlock, ranger, or anyone else to pull a single target off him after the first 5 seconds of the fight, and it's never happened yet.  Well it did once when the bruiser in group tried using HIS agro proc with dw weps then finally gave up and used rescue when the mob was at 10%. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Junaru]

<div></div><div><span>Moorgard started big number hits gain more hate then lots of little ones adding up to the same. In theary if you started a fight with a long delay weapon and switched to the same weapons and another Monk he could never take aggro from you.As far as out hate proc rates go. The way I understand it is you have a 50% chance to proc every 3 seconds. Thats a flat number and never changes regardless of delay or haste. Proc rate is retermined by a 3 second delay. So regardless of what weapon I am using I "should" proc the same amount of hate. If I since 10x in 3 seconds I have a 50%(5% every hit) chance to proc and the same goes for swinging 1x in 3 seconds(50% every hit).Basically over time our hate proc should go off every 6 seconds regardless of the weapon.The reason for the proc changes SOE made is cause that was per each hand since you could proc on your off hand. This is no longer the case.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Junaru on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:13 AM</span></p>

[Bulzie]

I'm a new (level 14) soon to be monk and I'm still confused on the slower delay is better theory.  I'm still hooked on the idea that I need the fastest hardest hitting weapons I can find.   Can someone explain it to me please?Is it because slower delay usually means a higher dmg hit weapon so inbetween the combat art casts, the 2h will hit for harder where a faster weapon with lower dmg will not hit as much and miss some of its chances because of the combat arts casting?<div></div>

[Nacire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div></div><div><span>Moorgard started big number hits gain more hate then lots of little ones adding up to the same. In theary if you started a fight with a long delay weapon and switched to the same weapons and another Monk he could never take aggro from you.As far as out hate proc rates go. The way I understand it is you have a 50% chance to proc every 3 seconds. Thats a flat number and never changes regardless of delay or haste. Proc rate is retermined by a 3 second delay. So regardless of what weapon I am using I "should" proc the same amount of hate. If I since 10x in 3 seconds I have a 50%(5% every hit) chance to proc and the same goes for swinging 1x in 3 seconds(50% every hit).Basically over time our hate proc should go off every 6 seconds regardless of the weapon.The reason for the proc changes SOE made is cause that was per each hand since you could proc on your off hand. This is no longer the case.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Junaru on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:13 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually he did not say that bigger hits got more hate than smaller hits adding to the same...</p><p></p><hr><p>Proc chances are normalized between dual-wield and two-handed weapons, so they should have a similar overall chance to proc over time. You don't gain twice the effectiveness by using two dual-wield weapons.</p><p>As far as aggro generation, the important thing is how much damage you do, not how often you hit. If you're in a situation where two characters are continually vying for the top spot on a mob's hate list, the faster dual-wield weapons may allow more chances to do damage and swing the aggro your way. But on the other hand, a slower weapon with a larger damage hit may take aggro and hold it for longer while a faster weapon with smaller numbers takes longer to get it back.</p><p></p><hr><p>Here he states that it's the OVERALL damage that matters.</p><p>As for our agro proc and EVERY proc buff or effect in the game they most certainly DO account for weapon delays when determining chance to land per swing.  My RGF procs the hate buff in excess of 80% of swings barring the rare fight where the RNG hates me.</p>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bulzie wrote:I'm a new (level 14) soon to be monk and I'm still confused on the slower delay is better theory.  I'm still hooked on the idea that I need the fastest hardest hitting weapons I can find.   Can someone explain it to me please?Is it because slower delay usually means a higher dmg hit weapon so inbetween the combat art casts, the 2h will hit for harder where a faster weapon with lower dmg will not hit as much and miss some of its chances because of the combat arts casting?<div></div><hr></blockquote>With Monks, slower delay is better in most cases becuase we can self haste to 100% at later levels, therefore makeing a rated 1.6 second delay weapon actually swing at a delay of .8 seconds (which .8 is the fastest you can hit).So if you use a higher damage weapon, but with a 2 second delay, 100% haste will make it swing with a 1 second delay.My personal way is to use higher delay, higher damage weapons when I'm in the DPS role or tanking weak encounters. I use lower delay and damage weapons when I'm in my mid or defensive stance (which removes a good chunk of haste) so I can still hit pretty fast and proc our hate buff.</span><div></div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:<div><span>Moorgard started big number hits gain more hate then lots of little ones adding up to the same. In theary if you started a fight with a long delay weapon and switched to the same weapons and another Monk he could never take aggro from you.As far as out hate proc rates go. The way I understand it is you have a 50% chance to proc every 3 seconds. Thats a flat number and never changes regardless of delay or haste. Proc rate is retermined by a 3 second delay. So regardless of what weapon I am using I "should" proc the same amount of hate. If I since 10x in 3 seconds I have a 50%(5% every hit) chance to proc and the same goes for swinging 1x in 3 seconds(50% every hit).Basically over time our hate proc should go off every 6 seconds regardless of the weapon.The reason for the proc changes SOE made is cause that was per each hand since you could proc on your off hand. This is no longer the case.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Junaru on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:13 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually he did not say that bigger hits got more hate than smaller hits adding to the same...</p><hr><p>Proc chances are normalized between dual-wield and two-handed weapons, so they should have a similar overall chance to proc over time. You don't gain twice the effectiveness by using two dual-wield weapons.</p><p>As far as aggro generation, the important thing is how much damage you do, not how often you hit. If you're in a situation where two characters are continually vying for the top spot on a mob's hate list, the faster dual-wield weapons may allow more chances to do damage and swing the aggro your way. But on the other hand, a slower weapon with a larger damage hit may take aggro and hold it for longer while a faster weapon with smaller numbers takes longer to get it back.</p><hr><p>Here he states that it's the OVERALL damage that matters.</p><p>As for our agro proc and EVERY proc buff or effect in the game they most certainly DO account for weapon delays when determining chance to land per swing.  My RGF procs the hate buff in excess of 80% of swings barring the rare fight where the RNG hates me.</p><hr></blockquote>No he didn't say that I meant bigger upfront hits will gain more hate. Mean the big two hand weapon will knock you to the top of the hate list faster and the DW slower weapons would have to play catchup.Weapon proc and applied proc are two seperate things.As for your Royal Great Flail proccing 80% of the time, I would need to see logs to prove that to me. With a 3.8 delay you will hate a 63% chance to proc on each swing with 0 haste. With 100% haste you have a 31.5% on each hit. The weapon also has a proc on it that has a 14.4% chance to proc with 0 haste and a 7.2% with 100% haste.Again your normalzing bases each proc off a 3 second delay. This is why SOE show a 5% chance to proc on a 1.5 delay weapon. We know that a 1.5 delay weapon procs </span>(1.5 / 3) * 5 = 2.5% with 0 haste not 5% like SOE shows. They do this so you know how often your weapon will proc for you ever 3 second since haste is NOT calculated into the weapon. It's confusing at first but when you understand how procs work you will see it's the ONLY way SOE could have done it. If they didn't your weapon proc rate would change depending on if you have haste up or not.</div>

[Colossaltitan]

<div></div>hm, funny. last i heard slower delay = less riposte.  longer delay = more riposte.

[Rrawl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Colossaltitan wrote:<div></div>hm, funny. last i heard slower delay = less riposte.  longer delay = more riposte.<hr></blockquote>Don't slower and longer delay mean the same thing?

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Colossaltitan wrote:<div></div>hm, funny. last i heard slower delay = less riposte.  longer delay = more riposte.<hr></blockquote>Well in a sense that is true but since you swing more often it is likely in the end DW might get more riposte. I've never parsed it so I don't know for sure but that seems to be what he is saying.</span></div>

[x0rtrun]

also, remember that those patch notes meant relative to how each type was before, not relative to each other. Meaning DW now gets less ripostes compared to how many you USED to get, not compared to 2hb specifically.I would imagine that using 1 DW weapon you'd get less than a 2hb (if the dw has a shorter delay than the 2hb of course), but adding a second DW weapon you'd now have twice as many riposte chances as a single DW.The only conclusions we can come to from all this is that weapon type choice is basically moot. Pick whatever you want, because it honestly won't make that much difference. Sure there are going to be some variations due to delay, and the mechanics of the weapons, but it's not going to make or break you.<div></div>

[diamondma]

well the difference is in the dmg dual wielding gives you aprox 20-60 more dps now than using a 2hander. as far as dragon stance only procing on your main hand im not sure because i seem to hold agro alot better when using dual wielders vs 2hander although it could be from the dmg.<div></div>