Being a puller in raids

[Sandy]

<DIV>Good day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk is being puller in epic raids now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With buff of outward calm and Tsunami, anyone was killed by AE?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Generally, I pull epic mobs with following steps,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) cast outward calm</DIV> <DIV>2) use range weapon to pull</DIV> <DIV>3) cast Tsunami</DIV> <DIV>4) move back to MT (facing the mobs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sometimes i was killed by melee before arrive camp.</DIV> <DIV>Any idea pls?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is Tsunami really 100% work on epic name mob?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've tried to pull black queen with sv magic 5k last week.</DIV> <DIV>After casted outward calm, my sv magic is over 10k.</DIV> <DIV>However, I was also killed by magic AE while pulling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not sure that outward calm duration will be reduced for some epic name?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kindly share your experience with thanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KnowH]

<DIV>Don't forget that in addition to the time constraint (15s), there's also a max ward amount (I believe 3500ish at adept 3) for Outward Calm.  Therefore, if you get nuked for 7k dmg, the ward absorbs half the damage and is gone, regardless of time.  You really have to know your foe to be able to pull it off, but I can assure you that against melee, Tsunami works fine, epic or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Black Queen is just nasty...  Good thing they made her harder ;p  Anyways, I'm not surprised you died on the way back, as she has more than one AE.  I get tagged for 7-8k by her <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not sure what you mean by sv magic...  maybe vs magic.  In that case, you misunderstand the purpose of Outward Calm.  It is not a resistance buff, it is simply a ward.  Thus, you were still pulling with only 5k magic resist, but had X amount of ward to absorb the AE with.</DIV>

[Reposa]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I've seen raid mobs bust through Tsunami.  Not sure how, but I have some ideas.. <ul> <li>Not sure on the exact buff it really gives, but it may just increase your Parry by, say, 100, but it's not showing it.  Making you 99.999% immune to most mobs.  By "most" I mean, the level 68 Djinn names in PPR were busting through Tsunami a lot.  Every now and then with Tsunami up I would get hit hard.</li> <li>Another thing could be the speed of attacks.  If mobs are hitting fast remember, it's harder to parry/riposte.  That may even come into play when there are 3-4 mobs hitting you.</li> <li>Lastly, if a mob ripostes you, does Tsunami block it?  Like.. on the pull, if your getting riposted by the mob, does it ignore Tsunami, or will Tsunami riposte, a riposte?</li> </ul> None of this is fact, just some thoughts, but yes, I have seen Tsunami fail on a number of occasions. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Reposado on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 AM</span>

[RyanTSi]

<P>in duels you cant reposte a reposte, if 2 monks both put up tsunami you each take the reposte damage. im not sure if that works the same on mobs. </P>

[Evad_]

Im the main puller on raids, I have also seen rare attacks hit through Tsunami. When its happened before I have not had time to take note of whatmay have caused it. It IS very rare however and most of the time you wont have any troubles. The Black Queen is another matter, like others have said she has not only her ae but also direct damage nukes, she can burn through your ward pretty quick.

[KnowH]

<DIV>Hmmm, if I'm pulling to the MT, my back is turned to the mob (no point in trying to do damage since you're just making it harder for the MT to pull agro), so I'm gonna be parrying not riposting.  In all of the t6 raiding I've done, I don't recall ever getting hit by melee against a raid mob whilst Tsunami is up.  Most single AE swipes will take me out, but whenever I've pulled or stole agro with tsunami up, I've been okay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now correct me if I'm wrong, but AEs that do C/P/S damage are still AEs.  So if you see "Mob X's AttackX does 9999 slashing damage" with Tsunami up, that may very well be that it's an AE (i.e. others in the area got hit for slashing too) and doesn't count as melee.  But if you're seeing, "Mob X crushes you for 9999 crushing damage", then I'd be worried.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Put some logs up, I'm curious <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Sandy]

<P><FONT color=#ccffff size=2>yes Knowhao</FONT><FONT color=#ccffff size=2> suppose we can parry all attacks. However, i ensure i was killed fast if i face MT and run towards him (both outward calm & Tsunami are on).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff size=2>Any idea Evad</FONT><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ccffff>? are you facing MT or named mob during pulling pls?</FONT> </FONT></P>

[Lintr]

You guys getting hit might be the mob reposting your auto attack or any attacks you tried to hit them.  You can't reposte a reposte =P hehe Outward Calm has a good magic ward, but if a DD was supposed to hit you for 8k, you will still recieve 4k in damage. <div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>As said above, you can't riposte a riposte.<BR>Meaning, to ensure that you will not get hit at all is by pulling then having your back turned to the mob, this way you only parry.  When your facing the mob, (within 90degree frontal arch) they swing at you, you swing back, they riposte and hit you.<BR><BR>So, Tsunami is 100% if done properly.  I haven't seen any word of any other way to "bust through it."<BR></DIV>

[Junaru]

sv magic = Saves Verse Magic.. Old EQ saying..<div></div>

[Supernova17]

Just some food for thought. The Black Queen prior to her revamp would do exactly 7500 Magic AOE damage to anyone with 2k-5k etc Magic resist. It seems that resists did not factor properly with her AOE. I could be mistaken, but it's odd that raidwide nearly everyone getting hit by the AOE took exatcly 7500pts of damage. With the Black Queen's dual AOE's, the only way I've managed to keep a tank up is by working with the other healers to keep him/her topped off at full HP as much as possible. Another bit of info, we Templars have the spell Aegis of Faith (temp 36sec buff, 2+min recast) and at Master 1 it not only increases magic/mental/divine resist by 900+ but it adds a ward that absorbs all Magic/Divine/Mental hits up to 1668 points of damage. I always put this up on the pull with our Monk using Tsunami and Outward Calm. It helps him stay up on the first set of AOE's, buying us time to debuff and lockdown aggro for the dps to burn her down. Black Queen is one of the most interesting encounters I've faced, extremely tough, but capable of being beaten if done right. /wave Colo Descartin, 60 Templar Nevian, 56 Monk Kithicor <div></div>

[Mala-Shea]

<P>I used to pull raid mobs quite a bit too. When we started doing LJ on more than one occasion I got whacked for 5K with Tsunami up. I thought maybe I cast it to late or something, but there is an explanation. This is from Dfoley a while back....</P> <P> </P> <P>Tsunami is NOT 100% invuln.   Its 92% vs mobs white con + because we cannot reposte a reposte so the 8% of the time a mob repostes us, that return hit for 1k is gonna hit unless we happen to avoid it.  Tsunami also does not block combat arts that are strictly melee dmg dots.  Ie lockjaws bite is 4k inital and 500 a tic , none of which tsunami can block, not even the inital.  Even though its pericing dmg.<BR><BR>Tsunami cant bring adds, thats correct, HOWEVER only half of it works on all mobs...We will avoid all attacks for 12 sec, but we will only reposte hits from a frontal arch.  <BR><BR>Downsides -<BR>Tsunami - up for 12 s down for 3 min vs 900 mitigation for 3 min down for 3.  Mitigation applys to all physical dmg hits, including lockjaws dot.  Mitigation also applies to every hit, including repostes.<BR><BR>Deadly spirit does not root or stifle you...<BR>12 sec of no dmg is ONLY > 3 min of better mitigation if the fights over in under 1 min, otherwise theres still 3 min gaps of taking greater dmg.<BR><BR>Deadly spirit does not stun you.....again so u shouldnt lose agro.  your thinking of callous skin, the 2k mitg + stun that monks and bru both get....<BR><BR>Tsunami<BR>-Can't be resisted -----actualy it can, repostes still hit us </P> <DIV>-Can't bring adds like fear ----- this is true<BR></DIV> <DIV>-Can't break on attacks/DoTs ----no but special atks and dots still hit us, so its the same for both imho<BR></DIV> <DIV>-Works on Epics ---- only if the epic hits for melee dmg, and not magic or special effects<BR></DIV> <DIV>-Affects all mobs, not just 1 ----only repostes frontal arch, rest is just avoided<BR></DIV> <DIV>-Does damage to the attacker ---- only if you can hit the target with your weapons and atk level.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing Tsunami verses our mitigation buff:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tsunami has 0 draw backs.  It does not root or stifle you-----um deadly spirit doesnt either, its 2% hp every 6 seconds<BR></DIV> <DIV>-Tsunami prevents all melee damage, it doesn't just reduce it ----12 sec of 0 dmg is not the same as 3 min of 11% less dmg<BR></DIV> <DIV>-Tsunami will not make you lose aggro in 5 seconds due to being stunned ----again your thinking of callous spirit NOT the spell we are talking about so again your point isnt valid.....<BR><BR><BR>As for 12 monks bouncing rescue....HAHAH youve obviously never raided....tsunami doesnt stop special attacks, magic based melee,  dragon breath (or other special effects)....tsunami is purely dd melee based combat arts, not spells, not dots, not special effects, so the idea of having full power healers is flawed.  <BR></DIV> <P><BR><BR>Since u obviously have no clue about the debate:<BR>Callous skin adept 3= 1512 mitigation for  30s and 180 s recast (acording to eq2idb) this is the one that stuns you<BR>Deadly spirit master1 = 3 min of 1037 mitigation, 3 min recast, costs 2% hp per 6 sec<BR><BR>monks version of deadly spirit<BR>Skin like mountain = 432 at master 1 for 30 sec, 30 sec recast, 2% power every 6 sec<BR><BR><BR>strictly speaking bruisers, the dps part of brawler, gets a mitigation buff (deadly spirit) that adds over double (2.4 to be exact) the mitigation of the tanking counter part.  Not only that 3 min of over 2.4 times the mitigation means for those 3 min a bruiser has much great tanking superiorty.<BR><BR><BR>Lets give you an example<BR><BR>Lvl 64 named in poets, the eyeball.  Avg fight time 1 min 40 seconds<BR>monk tanking- same avoidance as a bru, 1k mitigation less (about 28% mitg), but for the first 12 sec takes almost no dmg (expect at least one 2.5k reposte)<BR>bru tanking - same avoidance as a monk, 1k mitg (about 40% mitg) more then a monk fore the entire duration of the fight<BR><BR>now given both in full t6 rare, youve got a monk tanks better for the first 12 sec or a bru who tanks better for the rest of the fight because instead of getting hit for 2.5k hes geting hit for 2.1k but retains the same avoidance as a monk.   tough call when def stances are identical i wonder who wins....a fighter who does over 100dps more then a monk and takes 10% less dmg per hit, or a fighter who does 100 less dmg and only tanks better for the first 12 seconds?<BR><BR>I am simply stating that, bruisers dps and tanking skill isnt in par.  If berserkers did 100 more dps then a guard (prolly close to that on ae groups) they sure as hell wouldnt be able to tank better then a guardian (and they dont as the guardian has the more benifical defensive buffs)<BR><BR>bruisers are over powered simply because <BR>1) they do more dps the rogues and assassins, now this could be fixed by reducing the bru dps or fixing the rogues and assassins...thats up to the devs im just stating the obvious fact that a fighter is oud dpsing all scouts except ranger....which isnt supposed to happen<BR><BR>2) brusiers mitigation buff (DEADLY SPIRIT NOT CALLOUS SKIN) is far more benifical the the monks version as it allows the bru, with the same avoidance as a monk, gain effectivly 1k more mitg, and thus tank better over extended parses because they can have that mitg on min50% of the time,,,,Over a 6 min period, a monk can keep his mitg buff up for 3 min, same as bruiser, but the better of the two tanks receives 2.5 x less mitgation then the counter part that is already out dpsing us by 100dps<BR><BR>3) only a small point but monks cant keep our mitg buff up if we are power taped nor can we tsunami....now a bru can keep his mitg buff up even if hes drained oop because it costs hp....again only a small point<BR><BR><BR>Hope this helps,</P> <P> </P> <P>Slapp</P> <P>60 Monk</P> <P>Heroes Fate</P> <P>Grobb</P>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>Slapp:<BR>Your comparing Tsunami to Deadly Spirit.  They aren't the same line.<BR>Deadly Spirit & Everburning Fire/Flame/Blaze are the same line of skills.<BR><BR>Monks mitigaiton buff is the one that roots you.<BR>Ontop of that Monks have the stun one.<BR>Bruisers just have Calloused (Stun).<BR><BR>Deadly Spirit drains HP same as Everburning Fire/Flame/Blaze.<BR>Only difference is, Monks can keep up Everburning ____ up permanently and Bruisers is up for three minutes, down for three minutes.  This needs to be changed to a concentration buff as it already has one negative effect.  Then it would be equivilant to Monks buff.<BR><BR>Bruisers are overpowered because they can what? Out DPS assassins & rouges.... man... I think thats the Rouges/Assassins you play with purely suck because I never do w/ all Master 1 Ca's & Above average gear, it just doesn't happen.<BR><BR>True, Deadly Spirit is nice. But Bruisers are meant to have more mitigation than Monks and Monks are meant to have more avoidance than Bruisers.  If you get your Agility to what Bruisers get theirs to, that will prove correct.<BR><BR>Oh, and on the mobs that you would actually need the buff from Deadly Spirit, it wouldn't matter.  When Deadly Spirit drops, the Bruiser drops its only up for three minutes, and tough mobs don't die in under three minutes.<BR><BR>Monks are now one of the keys to raiding (almost everyone uses monks to pull, having them tank while Tsunami is up allowing time for the mob to get debuffed so when the Main Tank takes aggro he doesn't get owned in 2sec.<BR><BR>I'll trade Sonic Fists my teleport kick/interrupt ancient teaching for Tsunami any day, then I'll have raid usage if I'm not tanking.<BR>*Edit* /wave Dez <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Colossaltitan on <span class=date_text>12-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[laatikko]

just wanna add to that eyeball fight... 1st of all we monks (at60) got 8sec worth of stuns and 10sec stifle. So instead of pulling with oc/tsu up just rush to it with a 4sec stun, do couple kicks, another stun and a stun. Now the silent palm time, I find it myself that mobs resist it quite easily so keep an eye on ur maintained spells.. U wont need to cast outward calm when the mob is stifled/stunned so dont cast it before the fight has lasted well over 10 secs.. And if ur not soloing pp ur bound to have some other classes there who can stifle/stun too... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> what comes to tsu there is absolutely no point in casting it in advance when fighting heroics, it will just get wasted with the mob being stunned. If ur doing pp with just 1 healer or what ever mob the right time to cast tsu is when u go low on hp.. 12secs should be enough for any healer to get ur hp back up and if u havent wasted ur OC at the beginning u'll have a 5k ward (m1) up too to help.. Now what comes to pulling in raids, only troubles ive had is mobs nuking for over 10k at the beginning or getting rooted/stunned while running.. as stated above templar sanc and ward is very good help at those so if ur not jumping from high take a templar there with u <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Lintr]

Problem with Tsunami pulling now is that the monk can still be stunned or stifled even when the stun physical combat art is parried or reposte.   This started happening since LU# 18.  No response to Devs if this is intended and i did not read about the change in the notes. <div></div>

[Mala-Shea]

<DIV>Phay...I realize that..my bad, should have edited the post. Just splattered some info out there!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slapp</DIV> <DIV>60 Monk</DIV> <DIV>Heroes Fate</DIV> <DIV>Grobb</DIV>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>NP</DIV>