Tanking exp mobs. I have questions..

[Junaru]

Ok I've soloed my Monk to L33 and only grouped once to help someone with an AQ. My Monk is an alt that is becoming a main. He's decked out in T4 Rare crafted and T4 Rare crafted fist wraps. I have 2 master I [Pouncing Tiger(29), Martial Discipline(32)] and 4 [Compress (34), Whispering Blessing(35), Focus Energy(36), Quiet Purity(37)] in the bank and all adept I or better skills. Now that I have proven I'm a twink who doesn't know how to tank, on to my question.I've banged thru the levels to get my Monk to catch the average level of my guildies. Still not there yet, but what I am noticing while banging out levels is my grouping skills are non-exsistant. I'm guessing at some point someone is going to ask me to tank for a group and while I'm sure I can tank single target mobs with zero problems my concerns are with group mobs. I've read all the threads from the "New FAQ" thread but I still have some questions.Are all these tanking threads manly for dungon diving and raiding or are they for normal exp groups? I can't see myself cycling thru mobs in a exp group since they die so fast(atleast when I am playing my Warlock). If I'm asked to tank for an exp group do I just taunt, AoE taunt, AoE damage and then poor on the DPS and refresh when i can all thw while having Dragon stance up? Or does the same still apply for normal exp groups too?If I'm in RE or RoV and a group of 3 mobs from on a pull do I cycle them or just mash keys?I'm sure when I hit 36 and get my Master I Group taunt it will help but that doesn't change the fact that I am still a clueless tank.Thanks for any suggestions or help. I'd rather not be labled a bad tank by a few people cause I lack experance tanking even though it's the truth right now. But I hope to change all that.<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

Well, if you have a mez'er then you don't have to worry about the adds.  I often tell any mez'er that I work with to shout out if he can't mez a mob so I can jump on it. Now, if you're in an xp group without a mez'er have to work a variaty of things.  Here's what I usually do and it works out pretty well.  Keep in mind that when I xp it's usually... Single ^^^ Double ^^ Triple ^ Single targets you get the jist of, but for double/triple here's my strats for tanking those.. Range pull and AE taunt before they get back to the group.  Continue with single taunts on your main target as well as mashing AE taunt.  If you lose agro on one I switch targets to that one to peel em off whomever they agro'd. Someone mentioned this before on the boards, but it's something to keep in mind while tanking.  <i>"When you're tanking you're not there to DPS in any way, so get your mind off that.  Just focus on keeping the agro on you, and off everyone else." </i>With that in mind make sure you go all out def stances and such. <div></div>

[Aid]

<DIV>Normally, I'll save my single taunt for a mob I'm not actively targetting, using it to generate aggro to combat heal/AE damage aggro my casters are generating.  I never have to worry about losing aggro on a mob I'm hitting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone aggro's a particularly nasty 2ndary mob (usually if a triple up adds) I'll use my Rescue skill.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, don't be afraid to go into offensive stance if you find yourself losing aggro on the mob you're hitting, in tank stance (I only have this issue when I'm grouped with an assassin, generally speaking).</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Junaru wrote:I've read all the threads from the "New FAQ" thread but I still have some questions.Are all these tanking threads manly for dungon diving and raiding or are they for normal exp groups? I can't see myself cycling thru mobs in a exp group since they die so fast(atleast when I am playing my Warlock)<hr></blockquote>If they die very fast and you dont lose agro, you adjust your tactics to accomodate. After you get used to the basic tactics and are familiar with them, you will be able to better judge when and when not to.You also have to have a passing familiarity with the classes in your group.. for example, know who is an AOE king and who isnt. Know which healers work best with you, and which can help you keep agro. Learn who can mez (side note, it isn't just some mages that can mez). As you start to get your overall knowledge filled in you can change tactics as need be.But fast kills for me generally mean less attention paid to watching agro, since in an xp group people are less likely to die.. BUT, in some cases you want to throttle them back and make sure you can cycle mobs (the owlbears in nek forest come to mind) due to the situation. In that case you have your AOE people hold off til you give the goahead and they stick to single targets til then.This dynamic is what makes tanking fun.. being able to handle any situation and any emergency <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You might get a couple friends together and run through the EL or Zek access quests. They are pretty well scripted to happen in a specific order, you know whats going to happen at each stage after you have been through them once or twice, and it lets you get some examples of various types of tanking.. aboveground, in dungeons, etc. and can be a good training run for people.

[JudyJudy]

<P><EM>The best advice I could give you is:  Group up and practice.  :smileyhappy:</EM></P> <P><EM>No matter what the situation is, do not ever mash keys.  For group encounters, the best tactic that I use is to open with an AoE taunt, Single Taunt, Shocking Hand line, AoE magic attack - cycle to the next, hit two big damage CA's, usually a stun - cycle to the next, hit two big CA's - rinse and repeat until you're back to the original mob.</EM></P> <P><EM>Target the priest, caster mobs first to increase the chance of interupting their spell casting.</EM></P> <P><EM>By that time, you would have gained enough agro that you can focus on one mob, keeping the finger wrigglers safe.</EM></P> <P><EM>Just stay calm, practice, and please - no mashing.  :smileywink:</EM></P>

[x0rtrun]

Depending on the makeup of my group, I'll tank in different ways.If I've got a really good, full group with plenty of heals and dps, I'll just focus entirely on maintaining agro and conserving power, doing whatever dps i need to do to keep agro.If I'm in a dps light group, I'll treat it like soloing with company. Since I'm a primary source of DPS, the group is depending on me to take the mob down quickly. I'll usually be in offensive stance gear to dps, and will use a lot of stun jumping to completely stay out of harms way. This burns a lot of power, meaning a bit of down time, but can be very fun. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Junaru]

Not to be rude Kaio but by the time you cycle thru 4 mobs wouldn't they be dead already? I mean normal exp group mobs only last a few seconds. Well atleast at my Monks level. I'm not really asking about raid most of even HQ mobs. Those I fully understand to cycle them. I'm talking just normal everyday run of the mill mob. Like Owlbears in Nek or Gnolls in Splitpaw. Something that a normal exp group drops quick. Do I just spam my taunts as they refresh or will you try to cycle them?Sorry it seems like a stupid question and I know I can just grou up and figure it out but I was hoping to maybe understand a little before hand. All the FAQ seem to touch base on raid and HQ type mobs but nothing is really said about normal mobs.<div></div>

[Vildo]

<div></div><div></div>If I may offer an account of my experience in tanking...Normally in groups (example in Poet's Palace, Ancient's Table), I do what has been typically posted - AOE taunt, single target taunt on the guy I am targetting. It helps too, if the group knows that monks aren't that great of an AOE taunter (aside - our final AOE taunt is still the level 50 Agitate Spirit!! By level 60, even at Adept 3, it pales in comparison to our single-target taunts) . So, they know to always assist through me, hitting only what I am seeing. In these situations, I don't even bother to go into Defensive stance. I just let 'er rip with all attacks, with Storm Stance on, with Halcyon's Blessing, Everburning Blaze and Calm Tranquility full blast. Pure DPS baby! Oh yeah, interposing with Infuriating Tranquility taunts too (all Adept 3s or better). Sometimes a mage might "test the waters" and let go with an AOE attack. Usually 1 attack like that doesn't break the aggro I have on the group encounter. Sometimes, a mob or 2 might peel away. When that happens, I use Rescue. If there are more than 1 mob peeling away from me, I Rescue on 1, and go full DPS on the other... if I get aggro back, good. If not, he dies fast anyway, since the group will be assisting through me, and when I switched to the runaway mob, all firepower will be focused on that runaway.<p>Message Edited by Vildore on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 AM</span>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>The problem with having your group use implied targetting through you, is that you are constantly fighting them to hold agro. The point of cycling through the mobs is to build up agro on them while the rest of the group is destroying your first target that you already built up sufficient agro on.That way, they CAN use AoEs more frequently, because you have agro built up on all the mobs, while they are only building agro on your first target. When the first mob goes down, you've already got an upper hand on the next one.Also, if the mobs are dying too fast for you to even bother taunting... then don't taunt, just dps and taunt when needed if someone draws agro. I'd still use my aoe taunt just to keep the situation mildly under control. Consider moving to harder content, because if they are dying that quickly, they most likely aren't worth the effort either.<div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>12-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:03 PM</span>

[boarde]

<P>More important than your particular tanking method of choice is going to be your communication with the group...  </P> <P>If you have mezzers that is absolutely great... well if they know what the hell theyre doing anyways.  Charmers are useful too if someone is available since you wont have to waste one of your DPSers for the peels..  </P> <P>The worst possible thing is your group not understanding what your tactic is or vice versa, you understanding what they are up too.  While some dont like to bother with details and just want to go kill kill kill, its an excellent idea to have a short startegy discussion before you get rolling or to clue in any new invites.  For example, last night I was grpin with a small group of people that I could tell were all fairly experienced and had effective fighting manners...  problem was a mage who really enjoyed his AEs.  He kept pulling aggro on secondary mobs and when i switched to help get the peel off him he proceeded to basically tell me i was a [Removed for Content] for changing targets while others might be entirely depending on me to do that.  Needless to say I wont be grouping with him anymore, but the real problem was that we forgot to discuss any strategy, and furthermore, he had to be a jerk about it...  I guess the moral of that example is in some cases you may be required to snag your own peels, in other cases you may be ignoring them and concentrating on your primary target, caster, etc.  Just talk it out.</P> <P>And of coarse the basics...  your aggro proc buff, dual wield for higher proc chances.  pull with range or whatever and rattle off the grp taunt first followed by the single target taunt on your primary.  As soon as they are all on you if there arnt any mezzing you nail your AE attack also increasing hate with chances of proc hate on the secondary mobs as well..  Stir well, bake for 420 minutes...  presto, you have a tank.</P> <P>Ironfist</P> <P>Lvl 53 Monk</P> <P>Permafrost</P>

[x0rtrun]

Just a note: it seems that in LU18 they are making non-inate-weapon procs (our proc taunt) only proc off the primary weapon, reducing the hate generation of DW to be more in line with 2hb. We still don't know if the chance of proc is normalized to delay like weapons procs are. We just have to assume that the more times you hit the mob, the more chances you have of hate proc going off.<div></div>

[Junaru]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm guessing having a group with a MA and MT is a good idea as a Monk. Often my Warlock is MA in group because he is an Erudite and can pick out mages and healers(in case you didn't know they glow <font color="#ccff00">green</font>[healer] and <font color="#6666ff">blue</font>[mage] with Erudite racial trait). I've played MA alot but mostly when going after named mobs with friends.This gives me a good idea of where to begin. I guess only doing it can help improve tanking skills.I guess with 3 seperate stuns it would be good to smack each mob with one to build aggro. Stuns seem to build alot of hate.<div></div>

[JudyJudy]

<EM></EM> <DIV><EM>Not rude at all, mate.  :smileyhappy:</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Exactly what Trunks said - cycling through the mobs will ensure your hate generation.  If they happen to fall fast, even better.  But if you're tanking any type of heroic mob (or group mobs in this case), chances are they will take a bit longer than the traditional owl bear.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Use your taunts as they refresh, but hold off on the single taunt if the mob is in the red - save it for when the group drops it, then begin the next cycle with the single taunt.  AoE taunt everytime it refreshes.</EM></DIV>

[boarde]

/sigh Yah x0rtrunks, your right.  I forgot about that.  Not really fond of that change.. I supose the lower delay on the DW weaps should still keep a higher proc margin over the higher delayed 2h since youll get more hits off before the kill and each hit has its chance for the hate proc.  Then again the higher damage per hit probably balances that out...  6 of these, half a dozen of those..  -IF <div></div>

[x0rtrun]

Not all DW have lower delay than 2hb.Cestii is 2.0 and bo staff is 1.7 for isntance.<div></div>

[boarde]

<P>someone get this guy a cold one!</P> <P> </P>

[Pnaxx]

<DIV>Even though I am not a Monk, I do have a 40 something Zerker that was MT for most of his life...and a darn good one too:smileywink: And there are a few details I didn't see here I would like to add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. If your mouse has a ball on it to get you in and out of first person action, then use that to get the farthest view back that you can so you can see the whole area while you tanking. In that way you will be better able to see adds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. In xp groups, just worry about adds. If there are none then great....just keep looking around for adds the whole time...if you see one, click on it and peel it off. Taunts may not work on an add at first...you may have to hit it a few times forst to get it's attention, then taunt again....repeat as nessesary to peel the sucker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Tell the dps folks to let you hold agro for 5 seconds with a decent size mob to generate enough ogro to hold the mob. This is very important. And tell them b4 hand to not start off spamming mobs or even then...even if you held agro for the 5 seconds, you may get adds on your dps players from the main group of mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Healers should not be healing you if you are in the initial process of bringing the mobs in to you as they will generate hate and a mob will go right to them and your work will begin fast in saving your healer. Just have them smack you with a reactive heal or something so they too can hold off til you can hold aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. One you get the hang of this, it is fun to have a tank pull big groups and get the excitment up. Xping can get boring after a while so spice it up, while using your best judgement and bring in one extra mob that is gonna add a little flair to the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. To get a nice group to kill....when the mobs are not hanging around in groups, is to have your stay in the safe camp that you have provided, and run through how ever many you want to fight at once. The mobs will follow you back to the camp and there you have oyur fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. Find a good safe place to camp in a zone and bring the mobs to your group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun, I hope that helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pnaxx</DIV>

[Edyil]

<P>Our brothers and sisters are right.  It depends on A) The group make up and B) just go practice.</P> <P>There are a couple things you should note:</P> <P>If you have a warlock in the group, plan on him tanking multi mobs encounters.  If he wants agro or has Masters where you have Adept1's you will not get agro back.  At that point, button mash and just get the mobs dead.  Save your stuns incase he takes spike damage to give the healers time to recover.  Use rescue if it appears he wont make it.</P> <P>If there is a pet class in the group and the Mage decides to CC adds, you wont get agro from his pet.  So let him do his thing.  Get behind the mobs when its time to kill it and do some real damage.</P>

[Jessyme]

<P>Excellent posts and advice! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>My other character is a conjuror, and to second what Edyil said:  If a summoner/pet class pulls an add or peels off a mob, let them have it and focus on your mob(s). For conjurors at least, even our weakest mage pet can be kept alive for a few seconds with the mob beating on it if the conjuror is paying attention (and if I am grabbing adds or peeling, I am.  Note: I will also tell you I am doing this so you do not worry as MT).  If you see the pet is going to go down, don't worry about it.  I can stoneskin, stun, root, and summon new pet and resume the fight. This is how I solo, and it works very well.  </P> <P>Note that this is not something done all the time; most of the time I just assist the MT. I tend to do this when (1)  there is no chanter and the MT is having a hard time keeping agro (I ask first though), (2)  we have no healer and I am trying to reduce the damage MT is taking by splitting damage onto pet which I can heal, or (3)  MT asks me to do this. </P> <P>Xyla and the Frog</P>