Know your role

[Lovelessangel]

<DIV>Because I don't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a halfelf monk and every punch i throw, every kick i land, i wonder more and more.. what is my future going to be as a monk?  Sure, i Twirl around and look pretty as hell, but the end game for all these MMORPG's are about efficiency.  I can't tank like a guardian, i can't dps like a scout, so what exactly will my future be?</DIV>

[x0rtrun]

Who says you can't tank like a guardian? Just keep up with good gear and adepts and you can pretty much handle a tanking or dpsing role unless you're incompetent. Don't confuse a monks versatility for uselessness just because we aren't the ultimate in one specific field. <div></div>

[DyeHa]

<P>I agree with the above post. As a monk, I find myself tanking 90% of the time. Even when we have a guardian in the group, we usually rotate who is MT for fun, or to challenge each other. I keep myself in great gear, and weapons, w/adept I all spells atleast. I find that groups tend to send me a tell as tank more then zerks/guards unless we are taking on things of epic proportions. Why? FD pulling, a tank that can get his own shard (invisi) emergency heal, never ever have a problem iwth agro, and our DPS is great. Monks are not a useless class by far. I know a few monks in raid guilds and they still do just fine. Remember that if noone wants you as a monk (end game)...the brutally honest fact is..its the player's fault..and not the class. </P> <P>PS: There will always be groups that only want pure classes (I.E Guard/Templar/Ranger/Wizzy/) because they want maximum efficiency. There are always people who have opinions and think they know other classes because they browsed through some threads on the forums (idiots). Ultimately no matter how "useless" you think your class might be looked at, if your a good, dependable player, that makes the game fun, then you will always have a group/place.</P>

[KnowH]

<P>In a raid setup, most tanking will probably be done by a mitigation tank, no biggie.  But in groups, especially with a lot of single mob encounters, monks hold agro and tank with the best of em.</P> <P>Offensively, you have to realize that a monks strength lies not in the damage dished out by CAs, but rather in the effects of the CAs AND the stready stream of auto-attack damage.  Why do you think we have 3 lines (wisdom of zephyl, everburning flame, and halcyon's blessing) that buff our haste?  Not to mention the majority of attacks either stun, stifle, knockback or interrupt the target.</P> <P>Our class is probably about as good of a balance as you're going to get as far as offense vs defense.  Why compare yourself to the extremes?  Instead, strive to improve your own playstyle to whatever suits your preferences.</P>

[FlowerFist]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I love playing my Monk, I may not know all the technical stuff about it, but as far as the fun factor we're on the top I think. I solo and group and in doing both I have fun. I agree with the above post about no confusing versatility with uselessness.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I actually got into the argument about tanking with a bruiser yesterday, he flat out refused to tank because he said he couldn't (his rebuttal was about guards/pally types being tanks, he wanted a Pally 3 lvls lower to tank over him or I), So I tanked and we did great. Everyone in my group agreed with me. But mostly I do 2nd tank/dps just because... (but I do tank in normal groups a lot)</FONT></SPAN></P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>But again, we can fill a lot of roles and don't have to rely on others for our fun...</FONT></SPAN>

[Vandileir]

<DIV>I play a Gaudrian, a Scout, and a Monk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I can say with honesty that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>90% of the time, a good monk will out tank a good Guard</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>90% of the time, a good monk with decent gear can do just as much damage as most scouts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to mention monk utility blows guard utility away, and is almost as good as my Bards utility (a utility class FYI)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>stop complaining, this class as few flaws</DIV>

[Lovelessangel]

There is a difference between complaining and merely inquiring.  I was just asking because I'm not there yet.  Asked the same question of necros and bards, two other classes i play.  Thats what these forums exist for, exchange of information.

[FlowerFist]

It was a very good question, I hope I helped... :smileyhappy:

[Vandileir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lovelessangel wrote:<BR> There is a difference between complaining and merely inquiring.  I was just asking because I'm not there yet.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Pardon my bitterness over the distruction of the guard class (was my first toon)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>trust me when I say, that the monk class do everything any other class can do. this includes in some cases raid tanking depending on the raid. the role of a monk is balance, they just lucked out that instead of being mediocre at a bunch of things, there plain awesome at just about everything.</DIV>

[Lovelessangel]

<P>That is my concern.  Because they are "plain awesome" at so many things while other classes are not, this creates an imbalance. One of two things is going to happen in the near future:</P> <P>-  The buff of guardians (doubtful, because the alternative is easy/matches SE's past)</P> <P>-  Nerf monks into oblivion.</P>

[Vandileir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lovelessangel wrote:<BR> <P>That is my concern.  Because they are "plain awesome" at so many things while other classes are not, this creates an imbalance. One of two things is going to happen in the near future:</P> <P>-  The buff of guardians (doubtful, because the alternative is easy/matches SE's past)</P> <P>-  Nerf monks into oblivion.</P> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I dont think guards will be buffed, because technically the class is fine. I gave mine up for the fact that its just a total drag to tank on a guard now. With the right gear, its still very doable, i just feel it takes less skill and more luck now than anything else.</P> <P>The only true unbalance I have seen is with monk DPS. It's my understanding that fighters should be ranking tier 3 DPS. From first hand experience in the 30 ranges so far, I am absolutely out damageing every other class I come across by far. Dont know how much this will change as I lvl higher, but I do know that 50+ monks in my guild still do tremendous DPS. As much as I love it, it strikes me as wrong, especially when compared to the DPS of the other fighter branches. If anything, I feel SOE will swing the bat there. However I dont expect a nerf any time soon.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Xxooo-Coav]

<P>In a raid, very rarely will we tank; unless either the guild wants to try something new or its against a specific type mob (mob that deals mental dmg for instance).</P> <P>Our group/raid buffs; Other than group haste, what do we have? We are not group friendly in that regard. We offer no 'awesome' buffs to increase power/hp/def of a group. Buff us, and we are great DPS. Buff us, and can excel as tanks. </P>

[Morrolan V]

<DIV> <P>I don't think Monk/Bruiser DPS is out of whack at the high end.</P> <P>I think that those who believe it is are looking at an incomplete sample of encounters.  In short, single MoB fights (basically those that are close to over by the time we run through our CAs once), we are probably among the highest DPS in the game.  </P> <P>In longer fights, or those where AoEs come into play, other classes quickly pull ahead.  All scouts are as good or better at sustained DPS.  Wizards and Warlocks absolutely own us in long fights.  Zerkers are superior to brawlers on DPS in multiple MoB encounters.</P></DIV>

[x0rtrun]

I geared myself strongly towards a dps role because our guild is plate tank heavy, and I do put out some decent <b>consistent </b>dps. But compared to the rangers, assassins, wizzies, warlocks, etc etc in my guild, I am mediocre at best. The difference is that every fight I can put out a steady 100-300 dps, where as they dps classes might put out a range of 200-500+ across several fights due to different CA refreshes or resists, etc. And our group utility is no where near that of a bards. that's just being rediculous. We have group haste, a single target avoidance shielding buff, and the versatility of FD for wipe recovery. Bards can do far more than that. We are useful in a group to be sure, but I know I'd probably be dropped for a bard any day. <div></div>

[DyeHa]

<P>Coming from someone who has played a bezerker, guardian, swashy, ranger, warlock, wizzy, Bard & Dirge (Yes, I have A.D.D and all my toons are threatened with deletion until post level 45). The monk class is balanced. Why? Monks do just as much damage as Scouts...LOL....lazy scouts or scouts that don't know how to play their class. My swashy has enough burst DPS to easily out-damage my monk. I'm talking about a swashy using 2 poisons, Stuns, and all CAs. Rangers? Forget it. Go compete killing mobs with a ranger that has all his arrow CAs up...you'll lose. Warlock?...don't make me laugh...Warocks exceed at killing Groups. Going up against 1 enemy at a time...you can almost close the gap...but not by much...taking groups? The warlock owns. Wizzy? yeah right. Tank as good as a guardian or Zerker? ONLY because of our avoidance. Yeah, we do alright...till we get hit.</P> <P>We are a tank class that deals moderatly high damage and TAKES moderately high damage. Our avoidance and deflection is the only thing keeping us alive. Utility? We get what works for us, invisi, FD, emergency heal, and some haste attacks that take HP like the zerker's rage line. We are a hybrid, so we should do less damage then the scouts/casters (and we do) and we should be able to tank less then the guards/zerkers (which we do). But we shouldn't be helpless (which we @#% well aren't). Don't mistake DPS from the average scout population, and Tankability from guards/zerks on average mobs as equal to what we can do. I play a SK also, and I must say that in my 30s, I can get just as much DPS if not MORE then a monk (More only when I am fighting Groups with my AoE). SK and monk? completely different. But the are both hybrids, so I look at both and I say yes...damage is balanced. I am a devoted scout class player, and I see nothing wrong with monk's DPS, I still LOVE laying my zerker, but monks can't tank so well that I am out of a job. I say, we are almost perfect....let us be.</P>

[cwelsh]

<div></div>Well stated DyeHard!And as far as the post about outdamaging other classes...don't get used to it.  A ranger using 20% of his power will do twice as much damage as you using your  whole power bar.Clearchus60 Monk <div></div><p>Message Edited by cwelsh on <span class=date_text>12-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 AM</span>

[x0rtrun]

Excelent post. That's another good point, if I want to sustain my high rate of DPS, I have to spam CAs and really work my butt off dancing around the mob. If I keep that up for a few fights I'll go oop, where as the ranger has barely broken a sweat. If you're seeing a monk out dps the dps classes now, it's usually in either very select encounters where the mob is dead really quickly and we unload all our CAs, or if the other classes are holding back trying not to pull agro. Or are just plain lazy. <div></div>

[Balmore]

Beauty of the Monk class.Being able to play multiple roles. Monks tank good and have decent DPS.The class is unique -- in terms of items, style and community. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Define your role? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Lareal]

Got to agree. I do very good DPS, better than most classes, but when our equivalently geared scouts decide to actually push CA's, they smoke my damge by a good amount. Hell a 60 ranger's ae dps is just plain amazing. I think we are a pretty balanced class. As someone above hinted at, we are the utility class of the fighter archetype. I personally prefer to DPS or Avoidance buff the MT, but I have MT'd before, and I off tank quite a bit. <div></div>

[ios_]

<DIV>My role so far (being mostly t6 fabled geared and rest legendary stuff,  spells m1 or ad3) is to spawn fd mobs in raids(lol) seriously <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV>Yes i do good dps in raids and i steal aggro some times(tsunami ftw at such times) but i dont believe monks have some important role in raids(we got only 1 group buff...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AppleBlossom]

<div></div><font color="#ff99ff">My problem is not that I don't know my role, but my guild is hellbent on the fact that monks are NOT tanks. Not at all. No siree. Nope. Nuhuh. No way! The only time I get to tank is if the scouts are not around to do it. Yes, that's right, because many of our scouts are full or partial chain, they are considered better tanks than me. So now, generally, I only tank when I solo. </font><font color="#ff99ff"><span>:smileysad:</span></font><font color="#ff99ff"> The fact that I have a long range of taunts and defensive stances doesn't seem to matter... *shrugs* Some day! Some day! *Shakes her fist*</font><b><font color="#ff99ff"></font></b> <div></div><p>Message Edited by AppleBlossom on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[x0rtrun]

Time to switch guilds. That's like telling a wizzy they can't nuke. <div></div>

[Edyil]

<P>At the end game, not including raid mobs, you have to ask yourself if you want a 60% avoidance tank or a 70% mitigation tank going up against that named.  Keep in mind that everyone is lvl 60.  Everyone has the same quality of CAs.  When fighting that lvl 64^^^ named, do you want your tank avoiding maybe 35-40% of the time?  Or do you want your tank mitigating around 50-55% of the damage?</P> <P>Its a very tough call.  Even as a 60 who prides himself on tanking from day one level 1 through now at lvl 60 in some tough zones, I have to wonder about which is better.  I have a feeling against mobs 4 levels higher that are hitting like a truck that the plate tank is going to do better when buffed by me than I will do buffed by the plate tank.</P> <P>Just food for thought.</P> <p>Message Edited by Edyil on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 PM</span>

[Cyngii]

<DIV>I think our roles have shifted quite a bit... I think those that know really enjoy monks for single group tanks.  Not that we necessarily do it better than Guardians or other plate tanks, it's just that we do it just as good and bring better utility (Fall of the Phoenix ftw).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raiding on the other hand there is no comparison IMO.  It's great that we can get 65-70% avoidance, but against a level 64+ epics x4 mob you aren't getting anywhere near that (against orange i doubt if you'd avoid a hit).  Even if we could avoid end game raid mob attacks, hits for 9500+hp will still one hit kill me.  So even if i could avoid 3 out of 4 attacks, that 1 will still own me.  As of right now, I don't see anything but 10500-11000hp guardians tanking end game raid mobs.  Our utility is what we're primarily used for in our guild on raids.  With Outward Calm and Tsunami we are once again back to our pulling roots.  We can pull/position raid mobs better than anyone at the moment.  Our damage on raids isn't bad by any means but no where near that of scouts/mages.  As as example from Lockjaw raid yesterday we had 2 wizards that averaged right around 77k damage each, we had 3 monks that ranged between 38k-41k damage, and a bruiser that did 42.5k damage (no scouts yesterday so didn't get any numbers on them).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So IMO:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo group content = tank/dps</DIV> <DIV>Raid conent = puller/dps</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cyngii on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[cwelsh]

A bit of advice that has worked well for me.  When you get those rare stones that allow you to: sell it for plat - make some pretty jewelry - or upgrade an ability to adept 3.  Please do yourself a favor and upgrade your defensive and offensive stances.  You will notice a world of difference with your stances upgraded to the adept 3 level.  Then focus on your jewelery and whatever else you want.  I have no problem tanking in groups when I'm in defensive and in a Raid while im in offensive stance I do so much damage that if I throw almost any of my CA's I'll grab aggro.Clearchus60 Monk of Innothule<div></div>