The effect of stats on monks

[x0rtrun]

<div></div> I'd like to compile a list of what the stats do and how much they help as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the matter since Lu13. Especially since SOE keeps providing their web people with inaccurate info. I'd like to know which stat affects which attribute and how much 1 stat point alters each of its related attributes. As well as whether or not the effect of stats scale with level and amount of the stat. IE, whether you get more bang for your stat buck if your stat is below 100, etc. As far as I know. All stats are capped at 7 x your level. (there are changes to this on test affecting lvl 52+, not sure how that will play out) Edit: RESULTS Ok, after some initial testing here's what I've come up with. This is what I get at lvl 54. For str/agi/sta/wis I used all the same gear and used my +12 buff rings to boost my stats. For int I swapped out a piece of gear for one that had +11 int. Now if someone lvl 20ish or 30ish could post their results we could see if there is any scaling taking place. Screenshot: <img src="http://members.shaw.ca/jasonznack/eq2/stateffects.jpg"> <font face="Courier New">Analysis: Strength Str      Atk    Dmg      Power 269      1026   77-231   2284 281      1032   78-234   2321 Increase: 6     1-3      37 Per pnt:  0.5   0.08min  ~3                    0.25max Agility Agi    Avd 110    53.2% 122    53.6% Increase: 0.4% Per pnt:  0.03 (AKA +3 Agi = 0.1% Avd) Stamina Sta    HP 114    4027 126    4085 Increase: 58 Per Pnt: ~5 Intelligence Int    Proc Dmg 58    199-370 69    202-375 Increase: 3-5 Per Pnt: ~0.3min ~0.45max Wisdom Wis    Resist 143    2080 155    2115 Increase: 35 (all resists affected equally) Per Pnt: ~3 <font face="Arial">All in all, str is still the most useful stat to increase. You get the biggest bang for your buck as it boosts 4 attributes (I didn't measure carrying capacity). You get a larger power pool, higher dmg per hit, and a better chance to hit with each swing. Str = DPS. I'd say stam comes in second with 5hp per stam. But I'd probably want to try and keep stam and wis up equally. Int does indeed appear to affect proc damage, although not by a great deal. I guess we shouldn't complain too hard about gear with +int on it, as it is giving us some benefit afterall. Agility really stinks. You'd need ~30 agi points just to get 1% avoidance! That's attrocious. Agility is a wasted stat IMO and every monk would be well advised sticking to the other stats first and adding agi indirectly as it comes from gear. Any feedback would be appreciated.</font></font> <div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:56 AM</span>

[Waung]

not very important, but int affects how much damage procs do. and also not sure on the scale but that's all i can think of for this stat.

[Lareal]

I checked this by adding and removing I +Int items. I saw no change in the proc dmg. Unless it doesn't show for some reason. <div></div>

[Bladewind]

I was the one who reported 13 resist points per wisdom point.  I checked again last night, and it was more like 5 resist points per wisdom point.  Once again, this may not be a linear relation and could be skewed by your ratio of wisdom:max wisdom for your level, your level, and other factors.   My wisdom is 60 points higher, and I am 5 levels higher than I was when i did my original test that had me thinking it was 13 resist per wis point.  Then again, it could have just been whacky math the first time <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[x0rtrun]

EDIT: put all info in the first post.<p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 AM</span>

[Rrawl]

<DIV>Has anyone checked to see if INT affects the damage on CA's that do a magical damage type? Like the Icy Talon line that does cold damage or the ones that do heat damage... I think that might bear checking out...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all, I'd still guess that int comes in as our least important stat... but it could make a difference situationally...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A monk tanking might forgoe int increases in lieu of sta, wis, and agi. But a dps'ing monk might forgoe sta wis and agi for some more int, if it makes a difference on some of the CA damages... I wonder if it affects Heroic Opportunities as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll try to do some testing, but I'm better at oddball ideas then I am at getting that organized...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rrawl wrote:<div></div> <div>Has anyone checked to see if INT affects the damage on CA's that do a magical damage type? Like the Icy Talon line that does cold damage or the ones that do heat damage... I think that might bear checking out...</div> <div> </div> <div>All in all, I'd still guess that int comes in as our least important stat... but it could make a difference situationally...</div> <div> </div> <div>A monk tanking might forgoe int increases in lieu of sta, wis, and agi. But a dps'ing monk might forgoe sta wis and agi for some more int, if it makes a difference on some of the CA damages... I wonder if it affects Heroic Opportunities as well?</div> <div> </div> <div>I'll try to do some testing, but I'm better at oddball ideas then I am at getting that organized...</div> <hr></blockquote>Int affects Storming Hydra (lvl49) at least. Was fun to group with a fury  and have close to 200 int <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. Need to see if it affects the others, SH got about 10 to 15% boost when my int went from 70 to close to 200.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

Pretty sure 1 wisdom = 3 resists, not 13.

[x0rtrun]

Yeah, it does. Check my post above with the breakdown of what the stats actually do. Geeze Gaige, read the whole post <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> x0rtrunks wrote:<BR><BR>Wis affects resists only AFAIK. I heard it reported to be 1 wis = 13 resist points.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was commenting on this, so you could edit the 1 out <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[x0rtrun]

There we go, edited so that all the info is now in the first post so that people who don't read the whole thread will see the correct info right off the bat. Thanks Gaige. <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> x0rtrunks wrote:<BR>There we go, edited so that all the info is now in the first post so that people who don't read the whole thread will see the correct info right off the bat. Thanks Gaige. <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ah whoops.  You're right, I was skimming!<BR>

[duplicity]

Hmmm. Have a question regarding AGI. I have done a test soloing green con ^^^ giants in Thundering Steppes. Soloing them normally is fine, but it can be a close fight. If I use a +23 AGI Elixir then I can solo them virutally taking no damage...... Does AGI affect anything other than avoidance? Daae Thyme Antonia Bayle <div></div>

[Gaige]

Nope.  Not as far as I'm aware.

[Rrawl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrawl wrote:<BR> <DIV>Has anyone checked to see if INT affects the damage on CA's that do a magical damage type? <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Int affects Storming Hydra (lvl49) at least. Was fun to group with a fury  and have close to 200 int <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN>. Need to see if it affects the others, SH got about 10 to 15% boost when my int went from 70 to close to 200.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I knew it!!! Still seems like strength is king, as you need power no matter what you're doing. Storming Hydra is specifically listed as MAGIC damage, so this makes sense... I still wonder if INT affects the other magic damage types, like heat and cold... Guess I need to go find a fury to hook up with... </P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Rrawl on <span class=date_text>12-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 PM</span>

[Rrawl]

<DIV>Where does all this leave us? What would our order of desireability look like for stats?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. STR</DIV> <DIV>2&3. STA/WIS -tough call here, more hps vs all types of damage or more resistances. I'd be likely to place a bit more weight on WIS, even though against mobs that do purely physical damage it won't make a difference at all...</DIV> <DIV>4. INT - Some more damage, especially on that group attack that helps us keep group aggro...</DIV> <DIV>5. AGI - such a low yield for increases I can't see focusing in on this one at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agree?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course... a Monk not concerned with tanking that solely fills DPS roles might bump INT up over the defensive attributes of STA/WIS... So far as we've confirmed at this point though it only affects proc and our magic type damage CA... I might have to make myself some of that spiffy very light armor in tier 6 with the +16 int attributes for when I'm not the tank...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[x0rtrun]

Personally, my wis has quickly surpassed stam without even trying. Inner calm master 2 is over 100wis. For me I think stam comes in second to str. HP matters a lot, especially to us due to the streaky nature of avoidance. We need a big buffer for the healers to keep up. The increases from int are pretty small overall, and you'd need to either get some of the big time int buffs, or change out a lot of useful gear for +int gear. I'm not convinced that's worth it. I'm not going to seek it out, but I won't stick my nose up at free int anymore. Agility is just shameful now. My agility is about 120, and at 30agi for 1% avoidnace, all my agility is only giving me 4% towards avoidance. Say I focused exclusively on agi and have 240 agi.. now i gain 8% avoidance... still nothing to write home about, and I've neglected all my other stats just to get this far. I understand that they need to [Removed for Content] agi so that we don't have the same old avoidance god problem, but this is silly. Give agi some other role at least to make it do SOMETHING. Accuracy maybe.. or maybe natural haste? or... who cares, make something up! <div></div>

[Quijonsith]

Freezing palm is specifically cold damage.  When I casted my STR ring freezing palm's (and all my other CA's) damage listed on examine went up.  Seems like it took alot of INT difference to get that 10 - 15% increase.  Are you sure that your STR wasn't buffed more than usual? <div></div>

[x0rtrun]

Well with the Fury buff his int went from 70ish to 200ish, so a 10-15% increase isn't unbelievable. But what fury buff is it? Maybe it increases str as well. I'm not sure, but I know primal fury is an insane buff for both casters and melee, so maybe it increases str and int. If this is the case, then the increase in your CA damage was from str, not int. Personally, I saw no  increases in ca damage, but i wasn't really looking for it. I'll have to check some more. <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>x0rtrunks wrote:Well with the Fury buff his int went from 70ish to 200ish, so a 10-15% increase isn't unbelievable. But what fury buff is it? Maybe it increases str as well. I'm not sure, but I know primal fury is an insane buff for both casters and melee, so maybe it increases str and int. If this is the case, then the increase in your CA damage was from str, not int. Personally, I saw no  increases in ca damage, but i wasn't really looking for it. I'll have to check some more. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, looks like this. Removed 14 int and it had no effect on stroming hydra. Removed 10 str (and 9 agi and sta) and max damage dropped by 5 points. So it propably was the str part of the fury buff that made the difference. In that case, templars are actually the best buffers for us, they buff str and wis with a single target buff.</span><div></div>

[Balmore]

<div></div>Awesome thread.STR is my fave. I went a bit over with it and found my self hitting the cap in any group with two healers, especially when I'm the main tank.Currently, shopping for STA gear. I will post my stats once I have setup completed.Can we say STR > STA > WIS > AGI > INT -- importance-wise and effect?Thank you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[edit...]<div></div><p>Message Edited by Balmore on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[Gui Lo]

<P>Agi and Str are the Main Stats. You have to concentrate on Agi. You wrote that 30 Agi = 1% thats right but try a mob with that 1% Avo more and then try him without. You will see that he is hitting you much less often then before. My monk has full buffed with Blackwidow 60,2% Avo 301 Str/ 261 Agi/ 119 Sta/124 Wis. Int is neaerly useless ( The Proc dam is a little bit higher but thats maybe 10 more dam.. ) for Monks because we do not have any nukes. Hope this Helps.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gui Long on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:30 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gui Long on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:47 AM</span>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>I'm sorry, 1% avoidance is not going to make a noticeable difference. Neither is 4%. When you get close to 10% you will start to notice, but I think it's foolish to forgo the benefits of the other stats for a such a miniscule increase in avoidance. Agility is a wasted stat in my opinion, and I think the numbers prove that. You can focus on it if you want, but I don't think you'd be doing yourself any favours. Sta/wis are going to play a much larger role in tanking than agility. Sorry to say. If you want to raise avoidance you'll either have to do it with stances, buffs, or +parry/+deflection gear, cause agility isn't going to be much of a help. I'd rather have 600 more hp or 400 more resists than 4% avoidance. (what you'd get from 120 points to each stat) Sure you can try and max out your agility (and you'd have to to see any big improvement), but the benefit of the avoidance would come at a much greater loss in your other key tanking attributes like hp, resists, and agro holding ability. <div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 AM</span>

[Gui Lo]

@ Xor your wrong. I know many high lvl Monks from some Servers and every Monk who knows his char will tell you what i wrote.Try your luck with some high lvl ^^^ Mobs. 1-2% Avo are much, more then u believe. A Monk has enough dps and Inner Calm on High lvl gives enough str/wis. No Monk has to increase str or an other stat like agi. So but do what you want. If you want to be a effektiv tank and to kill high lvl mobs solo ( Including hard ^^^ nameds ) you'll have to skill agi. Its sure that Sta, str and wis are importent but i think that a Monk should focus on agi. I play my Monk since 368 Days and i am a well known Monk on Innovation. I respect every opinion but try some hard mobs with agi gear. You do not have anything to lose <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P>Message Edited by Gui Long on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:28 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gui Long on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:32 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gui Long on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Agility other than that on items that focus on other stats, is a complete waste.  The benefit of agility is so negligible that its unnoticeable.  Any gain you get from agility is at least five times greater from adding defense, deflection or parry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The HP from stamina and the resists from wisdom easily outweigh the avoidance agility offers, so I would focus on them after you are comfortable with your strength.</DIV>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>I suppose this is where we differ. You'd have to convince me with some damage parses before I change my position on Agi. The combat update was not kind to agility, that's just a sad fact. Sure avoidance is important, but there are much better ways to get it compared to the low gains from agility. I do tank, and I do quite well. But I also solo and dps. I suppose if I were to be a pure, unrelenting tanking machine, I'd pay more attention to agility for that little 4% edge, but I'd rather balance it out. HP and resists will be there when you can't avoid and do get hit. <div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:04 PM</span>

[Gui Lo]

<DIV>Dunno Guys do what you want. Thats my style to play a Monk and iam very effectiv with it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[LaoSh]

<P>WARNING!   This is a long post, but worth reading through.....if you cant bother yourself to read it through, than dont bother us by replying to it....Ok now that I got that out of the way................I am currently a level 60 monk and have been playing since EQ2s release........Im also sitting on heavy str, agi comes in second, then wisdom, then sta.........(somewhere around (288 str, 180 Agi, 166 wis, 142 sta) Im not sure what Is the best, but I tend to agree with Gui Long's position, especially if you value the ability to tank.  Now I have read on this thread over and over, about how miniscule the effects of increasing your agi is on your avoidence.  Compared to 5hp for 1 point of sta, effect of str on power pool, and effect of wisdom on resists.  The problem is that you guys arn't looking at the numbers in the right context. your comparing apples with oranges, instead of apples with apples......   Here is an example:</P> <P><FONT size=4>1pt of sta =+5hp</FONT>  as noted by other posts, though I havent tested this personally, and Im not sure if this holds true once u get past a certain level, or amount of sta.....would be interesting to test this at higher levels, as well as post 200sta, 300sta, etc.....   ANYHOW......</P> <P>Now if you want to compare this to an increase in avoidence from +agi, then you cant keep this number at 5hp, but you must also convert this into a <FONT size=5>% of total HP</FONT>!!!!!<===this is the key!</P> <P>Because <FONT size=3>avoidence</FONT> increases are in a % figure out of your total avoidence right? 100% being max.</P> <P>So now that 5hp per +1sta which sounds alot better in that form, when converting it to a % of total HP it becomes a mere .1% increase in total hp per +1 sta. (using an average of 5000hp Monk at Level 60) (5/5000= .001= <FONT size=5>.1%</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Now lets look at <FONT size=4>WIS---       +1wis = +3 resists</FONT> <-----(basically your ability to MITIGATE (Not prevent) non-melee or non-physical..........the opposite type of damage that avoidence completely <FONT size=5>prevents</FONT>) now using a figure of (3000 for average resists for a 60 monk)   Lets convert this also into a % of an average  total resist amount (3000), so we can properly compare it to % of avoidence gain.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>So now that +<FONT size=4>3 resist per +1wis</FONT> which sounds better in that form, when converting it to a % of total resist pool it also becomes a mere <FONT size=5>.1%</FONT> increase in total resists per +1wis.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Now str is a tricky one because it effects Attack rating as well as power pool, Though interesting enough it too gives 3 pts of power per 1 str......when converting it to a % of total power (using an average power pool of 2500, cause monks have the lowest power pool of all fighters.....) this <FONT size=4>+1str gives</FONT> a slightly higher but not by much<FONT size=4> .12% increase</FONT> of total power pool.    </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Though My purpose here is to not argue STR as it is my highest stat as well, and I believe it should be hands down for any Fighter class including Guardians or Berserkers! This is purely for power pool and dps which is key in any group and raids, esepcially long fights, where if the MT cant maintain aggro through added DPS and a large enough power pool, the entire party/raid is basically doomed.   </FONT></P> <P>So my purpose here is to instead show how AGI is far LESS useless than most of you have made it out to be, whether it is post or pre LU.</P> <P>So lets now compare the numbers % whise.</P> <P>STAMINA       +1 point of sta= roughly .1% increase in <STRONG>total</STRONG> hp</P> <P>WISDOM       +1 point of wis= roughly .1% increase in <STRONG>total</STRONG> resist pools</P> <P>AGILITY          +3 point of agi= roughly  .1% increase in <STRONG>total</STRONG> avoidence</P> <P>Now that you have these numbers in comparable forms you can better decide what you feel is more important.  Clearly yes it takes more increase in AGI to get the same % increase in a stat.     HOWEVER this is only when comparing the numbers when SOLO aka Self buffed!    NOT IN A GROUP, where your total HP would be more like 7-8k-10k+ bringing a +1sta increase down to a mere .05% increase in total HP.    Furthermore in a group your RESISTS are also usually raised considerably bringing that total % increase down dramatically.    </P> <P><FONT size=4>In addition</FONT> to this you have to <FONT size=4>Keep the following in mind as well.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>Total HP</FONT> <---- Does not in any way effect how much damage you can prevent in a given period of time while a mob is aggro'd onto you............but is only a measurement of total damage you could theoretically take in one hit before dieing.  </P> <P><FONT size=4>Total resist Pool</FONT><-----Does not in any way effect how much physical damage you can prevent in a given period of time while a mob is aggro'd onto you..............only non-melee and keep in mind if you avoid a melee attack that does do magic damage as an after effect or its primary damage type, then resists arent needed to begin with.</P> <P><FONT size=4>Total Avoidence</FONT><------Totally effects how much physical damage you can prevent in a certain period of time while a mob is aggro'd onto you.............in addition to effecting the amount of non-physical damage you can prevent by avoiding those CA and attacks that do have non-physical damage as an after effect DOT or as its primary damage type.       </P> <P> </P> <P>THIS is the most important point.  Avoidence prevents complete ATTACKS!  Including those that would otherwise result in additional non-physical or purely non-physical damage that can not be mitigated by your Armor Mitigation!!!!!<-----very important to remember!!!!      Next, Total HP pool prevents nothing! and is only a measurement of your vitality in a theoretical one hit kill situation, other than that, Healing per second is much more important than total HPs!     Finally, Resists can not prevent complete attacks and only work the same way as Mitigation rating on armor does, it obsorbs a certain % of damage that is being takin.......Again PREVENTS nothing.           </P> <P>VERDICT-------------AGILITY is not useless, not by a long shot!    Avoidence is a very underated statistic and I hope this sheds a little more light on its effectiveness.  <U><STRONG>Completely avoiding attacks (Damage)  in a given amount of time is far more valuable then the effects of the other stats in question.  No doubt about it!</STRONG> </U>    Try this out for yourself like GUI LONG said......You will see......and in a HIGH DPS group or RAID......high avoidence can be KILLER!     Because the higher the DPS, the shorter a duration of a fight, which means the less attacks a mob is making on you, and if you have a higher % to completely avoid these attacks, you will find you can often go through a fight without even getting touched! Which means no heals are even needed, allowing the healers to stay on the very high end of their power pools, as well as constantly allowing their heal timers to be reset and redy........where the mitigation tank or a MONK with a lower avoidence rating would most likely get hit atleast once or more......... Which for a MONK......getting hit even 1 more time in a fight can be very damaging because of our LOW MITIGATION! You have to remember the increases in our avoidence are small from AGI because we are already at the upper end of the avoidence chart compared to any class.....If it got purely the same effect as the other stats.....you would see monks with over 100% avoidence!!!! thats just ridiculous to even consider.  With DoF coming out, higher levels and better gear meant higher stat pools, so the obvious changes were made.....Agi didnt get nerfed it simply got adjusted to prevent people from getting 100+% avoidence......Its purely common sense here people.    </P> <P>Anyways this post is much longer than I expected, but I hope those of you who took the time to read it through can realize the importance of AGI and see that it is far from being last on the list of important statistics for a MONK.</P> <P>Try it out for yourself if you dont believe it!   Hell, after doing this analysis as well as considering how much easier STR seems to be able to get buffed when grouping and raiding, I have decided to increase my AGI in exchange for either Sta or Str.   Why also do you think there are potions that buff   Both STR and STA for +35, and the AGI potions only buff AGI for +35?    SOE is not swinging the nerf bat blindly here, Im certain they crunched the numbers far better and thouroughly than I just did, with expert mathmaticians and programmers.  They did the right thing based on pure common sense......simple as that.   </P> <P> </P> <P>Lao,  </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=5>PS. <FONT color=#ff0000>"HP and resists will be there when you can't avoid and do get hit."</FONT> <---<FONT size=4>You may want to rethink this statement now after reading my comparison of HP, Resists, and Avoidence <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></FONT></P><p>Message Edited by LaoShin on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 PM</span>

[JuJut]

<P>Interesting discussion. I'm still not convinced that the other stats need to be converted to a % per point based on some specified number like 5000 hp though. When a mob hits me does it do an absolute number of points of damage or does the damage reflect a % of my health? I've always assumed it was an absolute number not a % of my health. If attacks are numbers and not % of health why shouldn't I care about how many hp I have rather than the % change in my total health that a point of stamina provides?</P> <P>On a different note, I'd like to echo a comment made above: show some data from a parser. If a 1% increase in avoidance does in fact make for a huge difference it should be easy to do 2 combats on the same mob with different agilities and show the huge difference. I'm an empricist at heart.</P>

[diamondma]

u'd have to parse alot more than just 2 mobs to get real data on wether 1% agi is beneficial. as far as putting sta str and wis into percentages to compare them to agi goes u cant they are completely different and unrelated stats. yes they all help u tank better in the long run but u cant just break them down into percentages to "prove" that agi means something. parse fights and i mean alot of fights and show us that 1% agi makes a noticeable difference. everyone is entitled to their opinion and welcome to do whatever floats their boat. but untill i see hard proof that 4% agi makes a huge difference in my tanking ability then i will continue to stack str. keep in mind that ur avoidance and resists are based on mobs the same level as u, and also if u cant hit the mob then u cant hold agro. agi stack and go fight some level 64-65 mobs and tell me how much that 3% helped u. =P <div></div>

[Bladewind]

<P>At level 60 with mostly legendary/fabled gear and 215 wis, I find my average resists (self-buffed, not grouped) are more like 1800-2000 rather than 3000.  Mental is the only resist over 3k and heat is about 2800 thanks to that handy new amulet of the swords of ro.  I think this is an appreciable difference from the calculations above, as it changes the wisdom effect to about 0.15% per point rather than the reported 0.1%.  My health pool is 4600ish, skewing my stamina to about 0.11% per point, but that is because I respec'd my two +2.5% health traits into +5 combat power regen traits.</P> <P>I'm not arguing that agility/avoidance is useless, I am just pointing out that you may have used numbers in the calculation that differ from what the realistic situation of others is.  My personal priotirty is something like </P> <P>1) Str</P> <P>2) tie for Wis and Agi</P> <P>3) Sta</P> <P>That said, I really weight them almost the same, with strength coming out 30ish points higher than the rest.  I think my current attribute breakdown with ring and self-buffs is something like 240 str 190 agi 180 sta 60 int 215 wis.  This works well, but I am looking forward to a general increase in them all as I get better gear.</P> <DIV>I was formerly all agility (at level 50).  While my avoidance was a bit higher, I found that was much worse at soloing, which takes up a fair amount of my time, and oop more often than I thought I should be.  I still think the balanced approach is the best to take if you want an all-around character.  <STRIKE>If you only tank, then, yes, I'd focus on agility completely</STRIKE>.  These attributes with the extra power regen traits have me pretty happy.  I'm the default tank for my guild, I can take on an off-tank or dps role if I feel like it or want to let a lower level fighter in guild get experience tanking, and I solo very comfortably.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, it all boils down to your personal playstyle, the tactics you use, and what you personally perceive as a good or poor fight experience <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'll not trumpet that others are wrong for not doing as I have, though.  I still learn more about the class every day, and make adjustments to my gear weekly.  I'm thankful that the community is this passiionate and has these long dialogues where people compare statistics, so I have a wealt of information to sort through to make myself the monk I want to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit:  did not consider storm stance and holding aggro</DIV><p>Message Edited by Bladewind on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:02 AM</span>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>The point wasn't be make agility seem useless as a stat, or that avoidance doesn't matter. Rather, the comparison merely pointed out that the effects of agility on avoidance are very minimal, and rather than jacking up agility at the cost of your other stats, I suggested a more balanced approach. The fact of the matter is, you can get way more bang for your buck out of +parry, +deflection, and +defense. These stats are raised by certain pieces of gear and from STANCES. While agility will add to your avoidance, it's NOT going to be the major deciding factor. Your stance will. Going from offensive to defensive nets ~10-15% or more avoidance for me. Thats equivilent to 300 agility. Getting a stance to master1 will have a much larger effect on avoidance than 120 points of agility. I'm not totally convinced by your number comparison. Fudging up some random numbers is one thing, doing actual ingame comparisons of the numbers and doing parses of the effects is quite another. When choosing what stats you are going to raise, you really have to ask yourself what you're going to be doing most often. Are you strictly a group tank? raid tank? soloer? Are you more often than not going to have lots of stat buffs? or will you need to be more self-reliant? I solo a lot more than I tank, so having a large self-buffed str pool is very handy. So is having a balance of my other stats so that I'm not lacking in any area. The entire point of my original post was to show what kind of yields we got from our stats. It simply turned out that agility didn't have the same bang it did pre-LU13. The role of agility as a defining stat is now questionable and needs to be explored more in depth. And it's great that we're getting some feedback on what those yields will actually get us in game, but we need parses and solid number comparisons. Annecdotes do nothing for us. <div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[LaoSh]

<DIV>OK, I see where your coming from, and in no way did I say that AGI is the best stat or should be stacked above STR, In fact my STR now is about 100 points higher than my AGI     288str vs. 184agi... AGI never was our defining stat nor should it ever be, we are Fighters, Clear and simple....STR is our defining stat, it effects not only our damage and attack rating, but our POWER pool as well........it is equivelant to AGI for a scout, INT for mages, and WIS for priests.......And why you guys cant seem to understand the idea of putting them into % is beyond me.    If  you talk about increase in avoidence in %, then you gotta talk about an increase in HP or resists in a %.  Why is that so hard to see?  Otherwise it is like saying "100 is better than 1%"  because 100 is higher than 1.............heh well if your talking about 1% of 100000, then which is really higher?  In addition in response to the idea about how there are much better ways to increase avoidence rather than raising AGI at the cost of other stats, well the same thing can be said about HP and STA.  Buffs, potions, HP gear are much better ways of raising your HP than giving up STR AGI or WIS for STA.   And the guy who respecced to get power regen now instead of +2.5% HP, I applaud you because it is definately the best thing you could have done.    Anyways, being at work, I do not have access to a parser or screenshots of stats, I was just taking an estimated average.....and even if your HP are more like 4800 and resists more like 2000, it is still a very small difference, and if you read my post you can see why you "get less bang for your buck" from agility.  I spelled it out in multiple ways.  PREVENTING ATTACKS (DAMAGE) IS MORE adventageous THAN HAVING A LARGER HP POOL..........that is easy to see.........and I clearly explained why.........The bottom line being, it had to be done with higher stat caps, better items, and better buffs that came with the release of DoF, otherwise people would be running around with a ridiculous % of avoidence, far above what any Mitigation tank would be able to achieve in his or her Mitigation %.  The idea from my understanding, as far as tanks go..... is that SOE wants an avoidence tank to be able to achieve about the same % of total avoidence and mitigation % as his or her plate class counterpart can achieve in total avoidence % and mitigation % if equipped in roughly the same quality of armor and equipment for that class.  An example of this would be a Monk with 65% Avoidence and 30% Mitigation  VS. a Guardian with 40% avoidence and 55% Mitigation.    Both have a total % of 95, they just achieve it differently.......This % is basically a measurement of DAMAGE prevented, either by completely avoiding an attack or absorbing a % of the damage from an attack.  If AGI worked the same way it did before the LU, then MONKS would be achieving far higher % totals for damage prevention than any Plate tank could hope to achieve.  The idea however is that a Monk who focuses a bit more on AGI can push this total a little higher which in the end game, and when your capped at level 60 and have all buffs upgraded.......is the only way you will be able to prevent any more damage.  Ofcourse stances and buffs on your def, parry, deflection are better than raising your AGI, BUT, after you have applied these what other choice do you have.   Its like paying 2-3pp for an adept III of a spell that only raises an attack by less than 100 damage.   Or buying armor that increases your stats by just a couple of points.....at the high end of the game, only small increases are possible....(its not like going from level 49 to 50 anymore.....and having a whole new tier of armor to wear)............but can still make a world of difference, especially when your talking about a raid party with 24 members.  Just 24 small increases makes that raid party much more powerful as a whole.  Not to mention with DoF, better items, better buffs, etc........Getting your STR capped is alot easier it seems than getting your AGI capped......so putting a little more in AGI is not a bad idea in my opinion.  Like someone had said, Balance might becoming the wiser stat choice if you plan to be in groups or raids alot.  Yeah if you SOLO u may want to have STR higher, otherwise you wont be able to do enough damage, which no matter how good your DEF is, it dont matter if your having to fight a mob for 2 min to kill it.  Its all about (Damage output/Damage prevention ratio for a fighter class)  Like I mentioned in my last post DPS is key, the more DPS, the faster you kill it, the less damage u need to prevent, and the shorter duration your experiencing minimal combat mana regen, compared to out of combat mana regen..........OFFENSE IS DEFENSE in this game!    Ask any scout about this lol, its the only way they can solo! Especially rangers!      NOW, if your MT however, DPS is not your job, so you can focus on those very small Defensive tweaks that will in the end give you an edge in staying alive and keeping everyone else alive.  Yes we rely on our DPS for our aggro building, and you shouldnt have 300 AGI with 100 STR that would be stupid, but having 200 STR and 200 AGI might not be a bad idea at all if your MT.   Being able to switch from 200str  200agi gear into 280STR 120 AGI gear for soloing would be Optimal!</DIV> <DIV>VERDICT------</DIV> <DIV>***If you only solo,    you better have a ton of STR, AGI is not worthless, but not so important in this situation in my opinion.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>***If you only group and raid, I would suggest Balancing your stats so you have a better chance at achieving your CAPS for all your important stats or close to them with minimul waste of going over cap.  Which lets face it, is the best you can possibly do. beyond strategy and having your spells, CA upgraded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>***If you solo alot and group/raid, I would suggest working on a set of solo gear and a set of group/raid gear.....SOLO gear focusing on DPS and STR, where group/raid gear focuses more on BALANCE and/or DEFENSE if your expected to be MT alot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lao,</DIV> <P>Message Edited by LaoShin on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:09 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by LaoShin on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 PM</span>

[x0rtrun]

Avoidance is still displayed as a percentage, but it need not be. They changed mitigation from percentage based display to a whole number display because it makes more sense to think of mitigation like a static armor class that doesn't change. In reality, your avoidance is the same sort of static whole number, but it just makes sense to display it as a percentage chance of avoidance. But comparing 5hp as a percentage isn't as easy as you make it seem, because that percentage will change drastically depending on what your total hp pool is. That's why HP isn't displayed as a percentage like avoidance is. Nor are resists. They are like mitigation in that they are a static, non-scaling, whole number weighted against incoming damage. You can convert HP into a percentage if you want, but you're still comparing apples to oranges, only now, you're comparing an apple wrapped in an orange peel to an orange. At least in my original comparison I was weighing the usefulness and yield of each stat. That's a subjective comparison and wholly acceptable. I described what the stats will get you, and how useful I believed those yields to be. It is helpful to see that each stat will roughly increase your attribute by the same rough percentage. I'm not going to argue with that. Thanks for pointing that out. But I will say that that tiny increase in avoidance is not going to make a gigantic difference for you. Not compared to the gains you get from stances and the like. It is here that I AM comparing apples to apples. 4% avoidance from agility is NOT as much as 15% avoidance from a stance. Is that easy enough for you to understand? You yourself say that it takes 3 times as much agility to get the same 0.1% increase as the other stats. Agility is an inefficient stat. You state yourself why this is so after the revamp. I believe there was even a dev post on the topic saying that due to the reduced yields on agility, the best way to increase your avoidance now will come from +parry, etc. Everything poitns to agility being a far less important stat post-LU13 than you are making it out to be. It used to be manditory for a monk to raise agility above all else. That's not the case anymore, and you aren't going to see as much of a penalty for not doing so anymore. You also won't see the same level of benefit from it. I'm not saying it's not important, I'm just saying that sacrificing other stats for +agi gear probably won't be as helpful as getting balanced gear would be. The agility on your gear, without seeking out agi gear specifically, should be enough to keep you up to pace. Most monk related gear and weapons already have agility. In the end we still come to the same conclusion though.... What you do most will determine what stats you'll want to focus on the most. Having balanced base stats with the option to focus on certain stats for certain situations with different pieces of gear, etc, is optimal. The end. <div></div>

[LaoSh]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=209172" target=top><SPAN>x0rtrunks</SPAN></A> said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance is still displayed as a percentage, but it need not be. They changed mitigation from percentage based display to a whole number display because it makes more sense to think of mitigation like a static armor class that doesn't change. In reality, your avoidance is the same sort of static whole number, but it just makes sense to display it as a percentage chance of avoidance.   <FONT color=#ff0000>I wasnt converting those stats into % to compare the actual stats! this is where your misunderstanding my analysis, I was converting the GAINS of a +1 to a given stat into a %.   And no it is not comparing apples wrapped in orange peels to oranges, it is exactly oranges to oranges,    a % gain to a % gain.....whats so hard about that to understand?   And the fact that you said Avoidence need not be displayed as a % is even more proof that they can be compared.    I could have simply converted the % of avoidence gain into a whole number based on an average whole number display for avoidence, but because we dont have that it wasnt possible.   So i instead converted GAINS of whole number totals of HP and Resists which we do have into %s which is possible with simple arithmatic.   <BR></FONT><BR>But comparing 5hp as a percentage isn't as easy as you make it seem, because that percentage will change drastically depending on what your total hp pool is. That's why HP isn't displayed as a percentage like avoidance is. Nor are resists. They are like mitigation in that they are a static, non-scaling, whole number weighted against incoming damage. You can convert HP into a percentage if you want, but you're still comparing apples to oranges, only now, you're comparing an apple wrapped in an orange peel to an orange.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Again I wasnt comparing Avoidence to HP or Resists when I was using the %s, That was to compare the % GAINS from a +1 to the cooresponding stat.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least in my original comparison I was weighing the usefulness and yield of each stat. That's a subjective comparison and wholly acceptable. I described what the stats will get you, and how useful I believed those yields to be.<BR><BR>It is helpful to see that each stat will roughly increase your attribute by the same rough percentage. I'm not going to argue with that. Thanks for pointing that out. But I will say that that tiny increase in avoidance is not going to make a gigantic difference for you. Not compared to the gains you get from stances and the like. <FONT color=#ff0000>Um did you read my post through? I said the same thing twice! and said that the idea is what do you do after you have applied your stances and +parry/etc gear.......cmon read a post through before replying please......</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is here that I AM comparing apples to apples. 4% avoidance from agility is NOT as much as 15% avoidance from a stance.<FONT color=#ff0000> No kidding and I said that in my post!There was never a doubt about this....and this is a non-issue.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is that easy enough for you to understand? <FONT color=#ff0000>Um .....yeah i dont even need to answer that.....can you read a post before replying to it though? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You yourself say that it takes 3 times as much agility to get the same 0.1% increase as the other stats. <FONT color=#ff0000>Yes, I did say this, and if you bothered to read my post through you would have saw my analysis of why it is still worth it, regardless of whether it is 3 times as hard to raise avoidence............ </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agility is an inefficient stat. <FONT color=#ff0000>Saying Agility itself is an inefficient stat is completely off......."Rasing avoidence through +'s to AGI is inefficient" is what you should say.......and I dont disagree with that, but instead I</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>argued  that the ineffeciency of raising avoidence through +'s to AGI doesnt matter because the benifit from raising avoidence is more important than having a larger HP pool or slightly higher resists. One example is that Healing per second is much more important than your total HP in a group or raid.   If you have 20000 Hp to begin with it dont matter if you only get 100hp per second in heals.......you will soon be dead....but if you just have 5k hp, assuming the mob cant one shot kill you, and you have say   500hp per second in heals.......your in much better shape.  Showing how it is Healing per second that makes the difference, not total HP.   (Unless your talking about solo situations only, then yes having more hp might allow u to just eek out an advantage over the mob, but personally I would rather have more str to push my DPS/Damage prevention)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You state yourself why this is so after the revamp. I believe there was even a dev post on the topic saying that due to the reduced yields on agility, the best way to increase your avoidance now will come from +parry, etc.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Exactly, and it was because they know how much more important pure avoidence of attacks is over total HP or total Resist pools, so why do you think they made it harder to raise through its corresponding stat (AGI), again to prevent 100% avoidence pools, which would be stupid.....as I now have said 3 times.....</FONT><BR><BR>Everything poitns to agility being a far less important stat post-LU13 than you are making it out to be. It used to be manditory for a monk to raise agility above all else. <FONT color=#ff0000>Why do you say this? Monks were never seen as being tanks prior to the LU and even those who did, could not come close to doing it as well as they can now.....so Why would you say Agility was the most important, when Monk is obviously a Fighter class and STR was and always will be the most important for US and any fighter.  Only reason Monks raised agi so much before is because it allowed them to get ridiculous Avoidence numbers.  Hence the fix.......Read my post through and you see where I explain this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>That's not the case anymore, and you aren't going to see as much of a penalty for not doing so anymore. You also won't see the same level of benefit from it. I'm not saying it's not important, I'm just saying that sacrificing other stats for +agi gear probably won't be as helpful as getting balanced gear would be.<FONT color=#ff0000> Did I not make this abunduntly clear in my post!?This is exactly what I said, and I even stated specifically I clearly put str above AGI and that AGI should never be the most important.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The agility on your gear, without seeking out agi gear specifically, should be enough to keep you up to pace. Most monk related gear and weapons already have agility.<BR><BR>In the end we still come to the same conclusion though.... What you do most will determine what stats you'll want to focus on the most.<BR>Having balanced base stats with the option to focus on certain stats for certain situations with different pieces of gear, etc, is optimal. The end. <FONT color=#ff0000>Um yes, it depends on what you do, as I clearly have written in the last section of my post lol....wow i love how you say that as if it was your own idea or actually in rebuttel to my post......when it is directly from my post.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Lao,</FONT></DIV>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div><div></div>Yes I read your block novel of a post, and I mostly agreed with you. Stop writing novels to me and go parse something if you want to prove to me that 4% avoidance is going to make me uber or something. I give up. This isn't getting anyone anywhere. This was supposed to be an informative thread not a slug fest. Instead of arguing with me, why not go do some parses and prove to me how much damage you can end up avoiding over many fights with the same mob with the only difference being your amount of agility. Then me, you, and everyone else will know for sure the true effects of 1% agility. Or we could all just go upgrade a stance and leave it at that. <div></div><p>But I see from your post history that you really like to argue with people, so have fun, but I quit. <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 AM</span>

[diamondma]

well all i gotta say is maybe u didnt tank before lu13 lao but there were many monks that were tanking raid mobs back then. just because u might not have doesnt mean it wasnt being done. the common misconception was that monks could not tank back then when in fact they could do a pretty decent job givin the right gear and group buffs. i dont deny that we tank better now than we did then but dont go sayin sumthing that isnt true. as far as the agi debate goes i agree 100% with trunks dont try and stack agi with gear and potions and all the rest. when thinking about gear u should be worrying about mit +skills and lastly stats. if u get urself fabled out ur agi wont be low i promise u that. i completely stack str as much as i can without sacrificing mit or +skills. imo this is the best way to go due to  the small gains in avoidance via agi. there is no reason to wear armor that has alot worse mit on it just to get acouple of points of agi. the reduction u will see in dmg taken because of an extra 1% agi is minimal but when u start losing mit its very noticable. i could care less about soloing to me it gets boring after a short period of time, so ive tried to completely focus on building my char for the group aspect of the game mostly raiding. with that in mind i'd rather let gear and buffs decide my agi rather than focusing on it and possibly reducing my usefulness in raids. if u cant hit a raid mob then u are useless keep that in mind. <div></div>

[Galap]

<P>Health, and therefore stamina, are overrated.  </P> <P>No tank has too little health to do the job.  The question is, will more help you do it better?  Having more health just means that your healer can afford to be sloppier.  That's nice, but not great.  If you take 5000 damage, you still need to heal 5000 points whether you have 5001 health, or 10000 health.   Having higher avoidance, on the other hand, reduces the amount you need to be healed.  You start the next fight sooner.  You are less likely to lose aggro to the healer.  Your fights are faster and more efficient.</P> <P>This doesn't apply to very difficult "final confrontation" type encounters.  It is really just for grinding.</P> <P> </P> <P>You can say the same thing about power - recovery is more important than total, but it is not as stark.  Also, since strength is very valuable for reasons other than power, strength is still the best buy.</P> <P> </P>

[LaoSh]

<P>Agreed Galapas, that is what I have always said.....Its healing per second that matters not total HP.  Though I would have to disagree with the statement of simple all out str stacking though, because If I did do that, in most any raid and even in alot of groups I would be going well over cap, when I could otherwise be more balanced and reach closer to more caps in that situation if I took a more balanced approach.   But Yes, if  your str isnt capped, then in a raid, by all means stack it until it is, because hitting the mob for the most damage is the most important, unless your a tank......</P> <P>Lao,</P>

[x0rtrun]

No one anywhere has said that avoidance is useless. Only that agility doesn't give you much of it. More avoidance is always better, it's just that some ways are better than others at adding it. <div></div>

[Kota]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Galapas wrote:<div></div> <p>Health, and therefore stamina, are overrated.  </p></blockquote>this doesn't make sense to me.  heals per second is great, but if you have 5000hp and a mob hits you for 5001 all the heals in the world ain't gonna save you. yes i realize you said that this pertains to exp groups, but i'm sticking to my guns.  late heals aren't always about being sloppy.  i 2 box a 56 warden, and i leave the sound on for 2 reasons.  so i can hear the fizzles, and hear any adds.  hp buys time in any situation.  </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Lahkota13 on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 PM</span>

[LaoSh]

<P>Haha, yes we addressed the fact that healing per second is the most important as long as your not fighting something that can do 1 more point of damage than your total hp in one hit.  Lets face it, if that is the case you probably shouldnt be fighting it in the first place.  The point we were making is that most of the fights you will have, are not against stuff that will one shot kill you, especially after the proper buffs have been applied on you.  If your a MT in a raid and get all HP buffs, wards, AC buffs your guild can offer, and still get 1 shotted..........I gotta say, I dont think an extra couple of hundred hp are going to matter anyways, that particular mob is out of your league.......Period.   Because even if you did have say 5500 hp instead of the 5000 (which is roughly 100 more sta, possibly more depending on which softcaps are being applied based on the actual total of your sta.....) against that mob that hits for  5001, your healers would still be very hard pressed to get you back up to above 5001 again before any more damage comes in, especially if it has buddies, or a DoT on you as well, or just his next regular melee hit.....which after the big one, would basically be almost simultaneous with the 5001 hit.  In this case your dead anyways......so whats it going to matter?  Those stats would be much better spent in Str if your not hitting cap already, then Agi or Wis......In a monks case.....I would go with AGI.  Instead using potions for resists.  Because they give a much higher increase than what you get for raising your wis.   A 100 wis jump would only give 300 to resists....u can get potions for more than 300 to resists and cost you no stats at all.......Not to mention you can buy potions for mitigation as well.......str and sta.....any stat you like...........Ive yet to see any avoidence potions though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yet another reason why AGI spent on it seems less useless..........</P> <P>Just my thoughts on this....</P> <P> </P> <P>Lao,</P>

[diamondma]

str does not cap like the other attributes. str stops effecting ur combat arts at aroun 440 str anything beyond that is still buffing ur atk rating and dmg dealt with ur auto atk. this is part of the reason why it is good to stack str not only do u max out ur ca dmg but u also increase ur dmg dealt overall, and im not 100% but i think the higher attack rating u have the more likely to hit a mob u are. <div></div>

[pootski]

<span><blockquote> <div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Galapas wrote:<div></div></blockquote> 2 box a 56 warden, and i leave the sound on for 2 reasons.  so i can hear the fizzles, and hear any adds.  hp buys time in any situation.  </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Lahkota13 on <span class="date_text">12-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I also 2 box, a monk and a healer.  Get eq2Companion.  It is a parser, but it also will do voice output with triggers.  I have my healer on a second box/keyboard/mouse/monitor, and off to the side, with hotkeys set up for the various heals.  So I just reach over blindly and slap the hotkey for what I need, I hardly ever look at the monitor.  When he fizzles, my eq2Companion computer says out loud "FIZZLE!", or "WRONG TARGET" when I forget to target the monk.  I made the mistake of having it say when Nothing Found while harvesting.  Very annoying, as I get 1-9 not found per harvest. Go to downloads <a href="http://home.inreach.com/kai/EQCompanion/" target=_blank>http://home.inreach.com/kai/EQCompanion/</a></span><div></div>

[boarde]

<P>I'll echo the statement that it is all about your play style...  I think this is a given.  In fact, Im willing to say you can have a successful character no matter how you stack your stats so long as you know how to properly utilize them and adjust them with items.  Im sure I stuck my neck out with that statement, but hey, to each his own.</P> <P>But now on the topic of grouping with avoidance versus hp...  I'm certainly behind avoidance and I have a hard time seeing the alter side of this argument.  First off, saving your healer power is so important unless obviously your group is stacked with healers..  and now if your really that worried about being 1 shot, a) your in the wrong place, b) get a meat can in your grp to run his damage intercept ability on you.  This is the optimal setup since at that point the healer can heal the meat can if your avoidance fails, but otherwise isn't doing near as much healing as they would if the meat tank was taking all the hits.  This also gives the monk the ability to concentrate on avoidance while the meat can can think more about hp.  </P> <P>The class clashes make my head spin..  so many of these classes that hate each other really compliment each other so well if tuned properly.</P> <P>On that note, Id like to meet a 2boxer thats runnin a Monk and a Guardian or something to that effect so that they could totally interlace the stats and skills of the two classes.  I imagine that toon master would be a tanking god.  /ponder</P> <P> </P> <P>Ironfist</P> <P>Lvl 53 Monk</P> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV><p>Message Edited by boarderx on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[x0rtrun]

Once again, avoidance is great. We are avoidance tanks. Avoidance is good. Avoidance = not getting hit. Avoidance for the win. BUT Agility's contribution to your avoidance is really really low. That's the only point I'm trying to make here. Lets put it further into perspective... It would take about 440 agility (thats basically max at 60) to equal 15% avoidance. Even with a lot of fabled gear and all your traits going to agility, and potions and buffs... it may not be doable. But a master1 defensive stance and a royal great flail with +8 parry or some other gear with those stats will give you practically twice as much avoidance. So, once again, worrying about agility isn't worth it, just take it as it comes from your gear. If you really wanna up your avoidance, you know how. I'd say that a couple percent avoidance (say anything less than 10%) will come up as a statistical wash. A good player with decent gear will do better than a poor player with 4 or 5% more avoidance. <div></div>

[LaoSh]

<P></P> <HR> <P>diamondmage said:</P> <P>str does not cap like the other attributes. str stops effecting ur combat arts at aroun 440 str anything beyond that is still buffing ur atk rating and dmg dealt with ur auto atk. this is part of the reason why it is good to stack str not only do u max out ur ca dmg but u also increase ur dmg dealt overall, and im not 100% but i think the higher attack rating u have the more likely to hit a mob u are.<BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>I have been noticing something similar as well and I would like to see confirmation and analysis of this, either with Screen shots or a devs post, I dont think anyone really knows for sure what the caps are anymore for certain stats and how they affect us at different levels and at different stat totals.  Lately I also have noticed though that 420 is not a cap for str, like people thought it was....7x your level....at level 60=420        I have noticed with higher than 420 str, I still get increases to my CA attack and regular attack damage.  Diamond is right, but It would be nice to figure out just how much more......and if it is worth pushing str up that high.  Because although it may still be giving us some bonuses, if it is going into some softcaps, those bonuses might not be worth it. Like if over 400 Str it takes another 50 str to just add a few more points of damage and a couple points to attack rating, it might be worth putting that 50 into something else, no matter how inefficient those other stats may seem, like AGI, if your Agi is not even 200 yet, the bonus from another 50 agi going from 150-200, might far outweigh a bonus from 400-450 str......though this would have to be studied a bit before we can figure out just what the difference is, then its up to the person to decide what they would rather have in what situations.  And yes attack rating is your chance to hit a mob as far as I have ever known. </P> <P>Lao,</P>

[x0rtrun]

With the last patch you get +1 to your all your max stats and abilities with each miniding... so that makes me think that it's 7x your level up until 50 (or was it 52?), afterwhich you get +10 per level... (after all your mini dings anyway). I'm not sure if there are any softcaps any more. We never did get a lvl 20 or 30 to do the same sorts of tests as I did to see if there is any scaling going on. But as far as I know, it scales by 7 each level, at least until 50, at which point, i'm still not certain what is happening with each miniding. The patch notes weren't very clear, and the dev posts on the subject weren't either. So the fact that you're still seeing benefits from stats after the 7x your level limit may be because of this. I think this is happening rather than a softcap, because for wizzies for example, if they don't chase the int cap, they don't get the max spell damage, (same with str and our CAs). From their big post and analysis they found that anything over the cap didn't give any increase, and I believe damage scaled as expected with each point of int, but I'd have to double check. <div></div>

[LaoSh]

So your saying that you think their is just a simple hard cap at 450 then? 7x50=350  +10 per level x10 levels @Level 60= 100+350= 450   I dont think this is true though...... <DIV>Im positive I can still get damage bonuses past 450 even..........So I have no idea whats going on.  It may be similar to the Avoidence and Mitigation caps of 80% I have heard about.........Against a mob of your same level, 80% is the highest avoidence or Mitigation value you can achieve, although after this you can still benifit from a higher % if you fight mobs of higher con, because your avoidence or mit takes a penalty against mobs of higher level than you, thus allowing whatever you have in surplus past 80% to be applied against them after the penalty from them outleveling you.    For example, If you somehow had 85% avoidence, a cap of 80% maxiumum would be applied in a fight against an even con,    Although if you had 85% against a orange mob, and say took a 20% avoidence penalty from it being higher level, then you would be left with 65% still, rather than just 60% if you had just stopped at 80%.   So what does this have to do with STR? well I have a feeling STR and attack rating and chance to hit work the same way.......There has got to be a cap for attack rating against an even con mob, and a cap of how much STR is needed to achieve it, although I think you can go above it and those surpluses will only be applied when fighting mobs of higher level than you where u take penalties to hit, just as you take penalties to avoid or mitigate damage against higher level mobs.........just an idea..............so while having 500STR against an even con might make you just as useful as having 400STR.............Having 500STR vs. an orange con might actually be worth while because you take penalties to your chance to hit and damage due to it outleveling you.........therefore even if you were taking a 20% penalty to hit and damage..........having that 100 STR more past the even con cap still benifits you in that situation.....................????  Think of it simple as being debuffed when you fight an orange mob............basically you get "debuffed" to hit and damage, and also to avoid attacks......so basically this is the reason there cant be hard caps, because this would make these mobs way too powerful for us to take on.........We must be able to get past even con caps in order to have a better chance against orange cons.........So if your MT, see if you can get your Avoidence at 80%+........ if your DPS, get your str as high as you can.....simple as that, I think the idea of balance doesnt matter so much now if these caps are not hard......just stack what u need in a given situation.....monks are unique in that we are one of the few classes that can be DPS or MT....most classes only have one stat to stack or one situation they work in.......sucks for us to have to decide or have 2 sets of equipment</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lao,</DIV>

[x0rtrun]

Yes, I think that may be correct Lao. It's very possible that anything over a cap could be used against higher con mobs. <div></div>

[LaoSh]

<DIV>Well last night I came across something very interesting, though nothing all that special I guess.   I ran into a young monk, level 28, wearing all cloth.  I asked why she was wearing cloth and not leather, and to which she replied, "because lighter armor raises your avoidence".  I was like, yeah sure it does.  I have never heard this before, nor have ever tried it, nor have I seen any other monk or class wearing lighter armor to accomplish this, and quickly told her "no, it doesnt".   Needless to say I had to swallow my own words after conducting a test back in my home city.  I bought a set of low level cloth armor just for the heck of it, because She was claiming wearing cloth instead of leather was raising her avoidence by 10%.  Turns out It does raise your avoidence!  I was shocked!   How did I never hear about this?    Well......the problem is that it only raised my avoidence by 4% total.  I went from 65% selfbuffed and in Def. Stance to 69%.  The thing is, the loss in mitigation, even if you bought T6 rare cloth armor, wouldnt be worth a gain of 4% in avoidence.  Which makes me wonder why is this even in the game then?  Curiousity grabbed me and I decided to try another test with weapons.  Sure enough, if you use a heavy 2 hander, and switch it for a lighter weapon or duel weild, you will see a small increase in avoidence.    Next, I decided to test whether being very very light overall like in eq1 was somehow now affecting our avoidence..........I got my overall weight down to like 9 lbs and it didnt raise it a bit.   Darn, a nice bonus for being under 15 lbs or something would be cool.   I liked that idea back in eq1!   Ah well, I guess though if you really hate the druid look of leather armor, and feel a little more comfortable in pajamas, know atleast your avoidence will be getting a decent bonus if you wear cloth armor that is .8 lbs or less.  After all, even just 4% bonus to avoidence is like a +120 AGI <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />      </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A somewhat dissapointed Lao,</DIV>

[x0rtrun]

Yeah, this came with the combat update. Base avoidance is higher the lighter the armor. There was a lot of worries about plate tanks wearing leather for the stats and avoidance, depriving leather classes of a chance at it. The boost in avoidance really isn't worth the loss in mit unfortunately. Would have been cool if the bonus was enough to offset the loss to mit, but I guess if it was like that, the fears of plate tanks wearing cloth or leather would have been more of a reality.I've never seen weapon weight effect it though. That's odd.<div></div>

[diamondma]

where the stats on both weaps the same? if the dual wielders had more agi when added together than they 2hander u'd notice a difference. stupid question but we all slip up sometimes =P <div></div>

[diamondma]

ok basically the way i look at things right now is get the best fabled/legendary gear u can with the highest mit and +crushing/+deflection on it and let that gear decide where ur stats lie. from there pretty much all my jewelry/food/potions/heritage choices are focus'd on str.  at this point in the game i would much rather have mit and high atk than anything else, dont get me wrong my char is far from [Removed for Content] when it comes to tanking i tank better than most of the tanks in my guild other than our guardian who is fabled out. the difference in choosing between str/agi/sta/wis has very little importance on mobs ur level or below the difference is when u get to mobs your level and well beyond. im wholely convinced that the higher atk rating u have the better chance u have to hit a mob. dun know if anyone str stacking has noticed this too but i find it hilarious that scouts in groups with all kinds of +skills and buffs cant hit a mob with their skills/autoatk and everyone of mine lands. why do i think that is? because i normally have almost double their str and my atk is normally almost 100+ higher than theirs. to me their are only two major goals in tanking. holding agro and being able to take the dmg dealt to u and honestly i view them as both being hugely important. if u cant hold agro then ur healers will die meaning u wont be able to take the dmg that mob can dish out when it comes back to u. with the way things are right now stacking str means i keep agro meaning my healers live as long as they keep me alive and its just one big happy circle. <div></div>

[LaoSh]

<P>Yeah I agree.  Str is definatley very important.  If you cant hit a mob your basically useless as a Tank.  Especially because as brawlers, us hitting the mob is one of our main ways of generating aggro, because our Proc hate line only procs on successfull attacks, and the extra dps we can do is needed as well.  We dont get all them taunting attacks and stances other tanks get.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lao,</P>

[Sandy]

<DIV>I have /respec yesterday. I changed to raise my STA now.</DIV> <DIV>For exp grp, monk's role is MT / ST now. Coz your dmg can never compare with scouts / casters.</DIV> <DIV>For raiding, as monks cannot stifle mobs anymore, our role changed after expansion.</DIV> <DIV>SOE give us outward calm and Tsunami now. Monks will be perform as puller in most epic raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a lvl 60 monk after buffed, HP can be over 10k now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Sandylo on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:04 PM</span>

[Shaialit]

Huh? Name Total Dmg | Ext DPS Jeanette 8823 | 882.30 Shifu 8799 | 879.90 Shnarff 3399 | 339.90 Ralinart 1547 | 154.70 Jeanette is an assassin, I'm Shifu a monk, Shnarff is a Fury and Ralinart is a 57 coercer. This was vs 62^^^ mob. And I was using t5 fabled weapons. Monk DPS is just fine imo <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> During raids my dps is usually 250-500 and equals beserkers, and usually below rangers/assassin/warlocks/necros/conjurors/wizards. Anymore dps and brawlers would be pulling agro. The only reason scouts can do more dmg is because of the hate transfer/lowering buff and mages can do more dmg if they get a tank with hate reducing. Otherwise mages will be doing the same dps as a brawler/beserker (unless they wanna die <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) Group FD, FD, tsunami, outward calm and steady non agro grabbing dps is very usefull during raids.I picked all AGI as the stat to raise btw.Anyway, there is no one way to play a toon. Some like all STR, some all AGI, some STA and some combo or trio. Whatever makes you happy I guess <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But brawlers can very well still be dps or tank and now for raids a puller too.I'm very happy with all the changes to the monk that have been done. The class is really fun to play.<div></div>

[selch]

<div></div><div>I found a just +4 int boots on it, so I removed my boots and wrote down my stats, then wear +4 int only boots, my "Base avoidance" raised. What's the deal? Even mitigation was 50% of my own boots.</div><div> </div><div>Replaced them with +5 agi boots, total avoidance was lower than cloth armors.</div><div> </div><div>Is it something to do with mitigation vs avoidance or from INT stat?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">02-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:17 AM</span></p>

[x0rtrun]

Were they cloth boots? Probably were, cause i can't see any other type of armor having ONLY int on them.The lighter the grade of armor, the higher the base avoidance is. It's all in the faq if you care to read it. Bottom line though, even though cloth will give you higher avoidance, the loss in melee stats and mitigation certainly are not worth it. There are only a few robes that would be appropriate to wear.<div></div>

[mill94]

one thing you chaps gotta realize is agi may not give a lot of bang for its buck, but its marginal usefulness increases as it gets higher.For example, the difference between 60% avoidance adn 70% avoidance isn't a numerical 10% decrease in dmg, but rather now you are only taking 3/4s of the dmg you previously did. And an extra 25% of life makes a big difference, while even with max strength, you will still just be a good dmging tank, not a dps.agi/stawisstr.lets stop pretending we are rogues, mmmkay?<div></div>

[x0rtrun]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mill9469 wrote:agi/stawisstr.lets stop pretending we are rogues, mmmkay?<div></div><hr></blockquote><span>:smileyvery-happy: ROFLyou're either kidding me or yourself <span>:smileywink:</span></span></span></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mill9469 wrote:one thing you chaps gotta realize is agi may not give a lot of bang for its buck, but its marginal usefulness increases as it gets higher.For example, the difference between 60% avoidance adn 70% avoidance isn't a numerical 10% decrease in dmg, but rather now you are only taking 3/4s of the dmg you previously did. And an extra 25% of life makes a big difference, while even with max strength, you will still just be a good dmging tank, not a dps.agi/stawisstr.lets stop pretending we are rogues, mmmkay?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Laugh.  Out.  Loud.

[diamondma]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>mill9469 wrote:one thing you chaps gotta realize is agi may not give a lot of bang for its buck, but its marginal usefulness increases as it gets higher.For example, the difference between 60% avoidance adn 70% avoidance isn't a numerical 10% decrease in dmg, but rather now you are only taking 3/4s of the dmg you previously did. And an extra 25% of life makes a big difference, while even with max strength, you will still just be a good dmging tank, not a dps.agi/stawisstr.lets stop pretending we are rogues, mmmkay?<div></div><hr></blockquote>ur failing to realize that str effects ur ability to hit a mob, which is how we brawlers maintain agro. we tank just fine with low agi because there are many other ways to raise avoidance. the returns u get from focusing on agi are alot less than that of any other stat. i myself would pick int over agi thats how little i value the stat.with 142 agi my avoidance is at 68% self buffed not because of high agi but because of increased deflection and defense. other than dd shoulders i have no gear that adds any +skills that effect avoidance.now with that said i tank solo/heroic/epic mobs just fine not because of my avoidance but because of my hp and ability to hold agro(which comes from sta, str, and +crush).most people still think agi is the way to go because they are stuck in a pre lu13 mentality where having capped avoidance was a big deal. now days however avoidance plays a minor role in our ability to tank. one big clue of this is that people tank in offensive stance regularly. why? because it allows them to hit the mob and hold agro.</span><div></div><p><span class="time_text">mmmkay     =)</span></p><p>Message Edited by diamondmage on <span class="date_text">02-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:19 PM</span></p>

[Xendo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Maybe its just me but I'll throw this out there... consider this if you will.</p><p>roughly 30 agi = 1% of avoidance</p><p>1 point of wisdom = 3 to all resists</p><p>at level 60 for example you would need 60 points of resists to gain 1% of non-melee mitigation so roughly 20 wis to gain 1%. This needs to be more at higher levels as the cap increases by 100 (technically it goes up 80 each level due to the 80% cap) for each level</p><p>it's roughly 30 (do we have exact numbers) to get 1% melee avoidance (and this is a chance to completely avoid not reduce its damage by 1%)  also from the original post there is still room for error on this as he only tested 12 agi for a .4% gain.</p><p>I'm no expert or anything but wisdom isn't so much the saving grace many want to believe it is.  I believe Str Sta are foremost the ones to shoot for agi wis and int are good but I don't think you should go outta your way for em.  (Especially in this age of 1000+ resists or +defense/deflection etc. on equipment.)  Not saying to completely ignore them but they aren't the big priority. </p><p>I just happen to 2 box with a Warden so I get Wis and Agi from him and I can self buff Str and Wis. (alot of Wisdom infact) So the stats I tend to be behind on will be sta and int.  Stamina is a no brainer vs. Intelligence.</p><p>As Diamond hinted at before me. defensive stance is almost pointless to use for tanking the loss of haste and accuracy is harsh  (given enough Str and +crushing  its tolerable) especially if MT.  Def. stance best use is if I'm gonna TV someone on a raid.  If ya want to focus on agility to be the best for that role by all means go for it.</p><p>I used to be agi focused I was much more happier after i respec'd and went Str/Sta</p><p>Message Edited by Xendo on <span class="date_text">03-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:51 AM</span></p>

[Blu]

I'm chiming in late on this topic. A couple of notes.Soloing nameds and so forth is all about burning them down before they burn you down. Avoidance plays a big role in this, but I'll have to agree with previous posters that AGI is not necessarily the way to go for avoidance. The perspective here is that, Yes, strength is most important, because you can burn the enemy down faster, especially the way monks are with high self-haste. I would say that STA is probably second. WIS is situational (e.g. vs caster-type WIS may be better), but STA will provide you with more time to attack no matter what type of mob you were fighting.Group/Raid Tanking is a little different (assuming the mob is challenging), not in what stats you would need, but in why. STR is probably more needed for long fights for the power pool aspect (Taunts and stun/DPS CAs to hold aggro), but not ignoring DPS. STA is also important for the healer's sake. The nature of avoidance is that it tends to be streaky. You might not get hit for the first 10 hits, but then you might get hit 5x in a row and your HP will drop fast. More HP helps to smooth out those situations where you are not as likely to die before the healer gets a heal off. Lao's points did give me a more well-rounded view of the AGI comparisons, but I tend to differ on his reasoning behind not choosing STA first. The amount of HP you need is not the amount so that you won't die in 1 hit. If you miss avoiding 4x in a row and die in 4 hits, is your healer still going to have enough time to heal you? Chances are: NO. Extra HP provides a vital buffer in Group/Raid situations.Also, I would take Lao's comments one step further about the percentages. He was looking at only what percentage effect the stats had, and only in the context of the character. However, the only difference the character makes is the effect he has on the world around him. In other words, it would be best to look at STR's percentage increases (to DMG, and ATK) versus some specific example mobs' HP (how much faster the mob is killed). Or STA's percentage increase versus some specific example mobs' damage (how much longer I can last in the fight). Those percentages are much more useful percentages than simple personal percentage increases.These could be calculated averages using known numbers for the mobs. (ANTI-CLIMAX) But, it would probably be easier to take Jarrgoon's suggestion and run some parses. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />X<p>Message Edited by BlueX on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:23 PM</span>

[Noxium]

I'm still a young monk, but have played a lot of mmorpgs, started eq1 around 7 years ago.  Been playing eq2 for over 2 years, with a gap though.  I am reading this thread as i'm getting to the point where I need to start looking properly at equipment as i'm now starting to group.  (Level 35)From what I can tell, STA will give you enough extra HP for 1, maybe 2 additional hits from a mob.  AGI will give you enough avoidance to avoid, maybe 1 or two hits from a mob, they are pretty even so far.  AGI will not help against spells, your STA will.  but...AGI will help the healer a lot more than STA, he will have to heal you slightly less, especially over a longer fight, which means he will have slightly less agro.  I'm thinking it comes down to keeping agro off your group members at the end of the day, and anything to try and help this, so i'm going STR/AGI.I know AGI may not be the most efficient way of doing this, but it will still help.Nox<div></div>

[Gaige]

Going agi with tanking in mind is a bad idea.

[Gungo]

i agree with gaige

[Shamantukk]

<DIV>I think the only *really* important stat for Monks is their Artistry skill. I mean, after all, it's all about the food.</DIV>

[SirGe]

<DIV>x0rtrunks said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Yes I read your block novel of a post, and I mostly agreed with you. Stop writing novels to me and go parse something if you want to prove to me that 4% avoidance is going to make me uber or something.<BR><BR>I give up. This isn't getting anyone anywhere. This was supposed to be an informative thread not a slug fest.<BR><BR>Instead of arguing with me, why not go do some parses and prove to me how much damage you can end up avoiding over many fights with the same mob with the only difference being your amount of agility. Then me, you, and everyone else will know for sure the true effects of 1% agility. Or we could all just go upgrade a stance and leave it at that.<BR> <P>But I see from your post historyyou  that really like to argue with people, so have fun, but I quit."</P> <P> </P> <P>I declare Lao winner!   LOL</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV>