My beef with bruisers

[Dfoley3]

Atm , bruisers have the same avoidace as monks, they have more mitigation, and more dps. Monks are supposed to be the better tanks, and the masters of avoidance, but bruisers are identical to monks for avoidnace, and monks get no unique buffs like deadly spirit that raid avoidance...Deadly spirit line adds 1000 mitg for 3 min (then its down for 3 min).....the top of the line monk buff is 300 mitg for 30 sec..... thats it, thats the amazing def buff thats supposed to set apart bruisers from monks. Bruisers need to have deadly spirit made identical to face of the mountain (30 sec duration then down for 30) and monks need face of mountain to add 20 deflection and parry for that 30 sec. So ud have 20 deflect ./ parry  300 mitg......vs     1000 mitg....for identical durations <div></div>

[Parker01]

When monk skills start costing you your own health, then it would be more even.  My 47 Bruiser burns through health when throwing up his defenses, as well as using some attacks.  Don't forget that part of the equation.

[Tilane]

<P>bruisers get the +1000 mit line that costs hp to maintain , monks get the 35% haste line that costs hp to maintain .....the haste only affects auto attack dps and doesnt do much in terms of extra dps ...</P> <P>bruiser > monk there too</P>

[Raahl]

My beef is that they are not running around encased in metal.  It's unnatural I tell you.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Tilane]

<DIV>how the heck are you even running around in plate :smileyvery-happy: let alone fight in it !! </DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tilane wrote:<BR> <DIV>how the heck are you even running around in plate :smileyvery-happy: let alone fight in it !! </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was born in it.  I ate my Weaties.  It's really just a second skin.  Sometimes I shed and a new one grows back.  The smell's really not that bad, once you get use to it.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

[NamaeZero]

<P>I agree. For masters of avoidance.. we certainly don't avoid any better. There are mages that avoid more, just based on their Very Light armor.</P> <P>Monks need a self only avoidance buff. Maybe they could add it to the Everburning Flame line?</P>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>They could easily add +agi or something to the control breathing line to boost up our avoidance a bit compared to the dmg heavy bruisers. As it is agi doesn't really do much, but a boost of 20-30 would certainly give us a slight edge. Also, some of our attacks also cost HP instead of power. <div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>09-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[Morrolan V]

<P>Well, I will add this anecdote:</P> <P>I watched a 50 bruiser solo a 54th level heroic encounter (one ^ and one ^^ coin guards in Maj'dul).  That same group tears me to ribbons.  He was roughly equally equipped to me (fabled BP, couple pieces of fabled armor, fabled weapon).  Now, I suppose it's possible that he's THAT much better at playing the class than me, but I generally hold my own or better.  In any event, soloing yellow heroic encounters is not something we are supposed to be able to do these days . . .</P>

[Morrolan V]

<P>Check out this thread on the bruiser forum:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=8305" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=8305</A></P>

[Gaige]

<P>I don't see any problem with the balance between the bruiser and the monk class.  Especially after we get our 52/55/58 skills.  The fact is that I can solo even conned heroics too, if they are the right ones.</P> <P>/shrug</P>

[Dfoley3]

I know moorgrad hates to be quoted, but he described monks as masters of avoidance, and bruisers to be slightly more mitigation based So in the end brusiers self heal for more and more often, they get 1000 more mitgation, identical avoidance, better dps. And their defense buffs last longer, even if they cost hp (minimal at best) just seems a slight bit sour <div></div>

[Gaige]

<P>/shrug</P> <P>I group with guild bruisers almost daily and I'm still quite happy as a monk.</P>

[Realix]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>I know moorgrad hates to be quoted, but he described monks as masters of avoidance, and bruisers to be slightly more mitigation based<BR><BR>So in the end brusiers self heal for more and more often, they get 1000 more mitgation, identical avoidance, better dps. And their defense buffs last longer, even if they cost hp (minimal at best) just seems a slight bit sour<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I do agree on this as well.  As it stands bruisers are better then us in everyway except avoidance where they are equal to us.  While I am having fun playing my monk, we are just 2nd class when it comes to bruisers.<BR></DIV>

[Oneira]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>I don't see any problem with the balance between the bruiser and the monk class.  Especially after we get our 52/55/58 skills.  The fact is that I can solo even conned heroics too, if they are the right ones.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So are you tellling us Gaige that Monks will get better as the levels go on?  I mean, that Bruiser skill that gives them +1000 mitigation is awfully good in my book.  WIsh I'd had that when the mob on the carpet quest part 3 turned around and hit me for 1100, 2000 and 2000 in the space of about 5 seconds.  (and no, i didn't parry, block or avoid...surprise surprise)</P> <P>I was not particularly happy with the 51 monk skill . . .increased attack speed for the group (how many more of those do we need?) whereas Bruisers get an incresed DPS buff.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm never sure what the new skills are anymore since some of them seemed to have changed even since the last day or so of beta.</P> <p>Message Edited by Oneira on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 AM</span>

[Dfoley3]

I beleive the order is Outwardclam (3k self rune duration 5 sec, recast a few min) - lvl52, useful as a second mend sort, basicly when u almost get one shoted u can buy ur healer 5 extra sec to heal you. tsunami (100% reposte for 12 sec from front only every 3 minish) - again useful for geting pounded on but only really reliable if u wait 3 min per fight and fall of pheonix (group fd) - adds nothing to tanking Def stances- bruisers and monks are identical, as are all non paladins (pal get 2 resists mag and divine) Off stances - bruisers get a 10% chance to proc 700-1000 dd, monks get 30% haste (which counts towards a cap)  100% haste is the cap, but theres no limit to amount u can proc.  a bruiser with a flail > a monk with a flail other then monks can now self reach the haste cap, but grouping with a bard or enc lets u drop stance and still reach cap so /shrug...bruisres is better in this regard Defense buffs - both get a stone stance clone....2k mitg while stuned for 30sec -we get 30 sec of 240 mitg, they get 3 min of 1000 mitg at the cost of 100hp for 6 sec (our self haste is roughly 56/ 3 sec).....so not only is our def buff weaker, it lasts much shorter avoidance -bruisers get more mitigation and identical avoidance dps -bruisers do more dps Heals 90 sec self heal with higher %...ours is 3 min now but still less cause its used on others ......i know you love your monk and i love mine gaige....but its blatantly over powered to be a bruiser.   They  have better def buffs (especialy considering they are the offenseive part of the brawler) they have IDENTICAL avoidance to the "kings of avoidance" unless you count a monk who pulls 1 time per 3 min with tsunami, then we have a 12 sec advantage on a 45 sec fight....which then is neglected by the fact bruisers mitigation is a whole 1000 higher bottom line, they do too much dps, get to many defensive buffs, and have no draw back.  the evil half of our class shouldnt be more dps, better tanks, ...im fine with them geting more mitigation, but give monks more avoidance, and nerf the bruiser dps PLS they shouldnt be 100-200 dps ahead of a monk who is WAY more fabled then them if they are gonna also be ahead of us in tanking <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Oneira wrote: <P>So are you tellling us Gaige that Monks will get better as the levels go on?  I mean, that Bruiser skill that gives them +1000 mitigation is awfully good in my book.  WIsh I'd had that when the mob on the carpet quest part 3 turned around and hit me for 1100, 2000 and 2000 in the space of about 5 seconds.  (and no, i didn't parry, block or avoid...surprise surprise)  <FONT color=#ffff00>I tanked him at 51.  Just keep him stunned/stifled so he can't cast, pretty easy that way.</FONT></P> <P>I was not particularly happy with the 51 monk skill . . .increased attack speed for the group (how many more of those do we need?) whereas Bruisers get an incresed DPS buff.  <FONT color=#ffff00>As all skills will be, save the 3 unique ones.  That's how EQ2 works.  Skill upgrade every 14 levels.  Quiet Purity is your lvl 37 skill.  I do believe Striking Cobra is next on your upgrade path.</FONT></P> <P>I'm never sure what the new skills are anymore since some of them seemed to have changed even since the last day or so of beta.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gungo]

Monks do get an additional deflection buff where as bruisers don't. So i find it hard pressed to say monks have the same avodiance which they don't an equal equipped monk should have more avodiance. For instance my lvl 48 shrug off adept 3 w 50 agi adds only 0.2% more avodi then the lvl 20ish staggering stance at adept 3 w the added deflection. From that point on monks gain more deflection and i gain agi in that combat art line. And from what i see using those 2 spells the added deflection adds more then the agi i recieve. Not only that but i can not raise my deflection any other way. where as my agi at 50 was almost at the cap self buffed i had 325agi self buff cap of 350 (7x lvl). Add 1 agi buffer to my group and i exceeed the cap and recieve no additional benefit from agi. Monks do have more avodiance. I can not test the actual number at 50 accuratly since i dont recieve a monks lvl 50 staggering stance line buff to compare to my shrug off buff. But it seems monks should have more avodiance.

[Gungo]

<DIV> beleive the order is<BR><BR>Outwardclam (3k self rune duration 5 sec, recast a few min) - lvl52, useful as a second mend sort, basicly when u almost get one shoted u can buy ur healer 5 extra sec to heal you.<BR><BR>tsunami (100% reposte for 12 sec from front only every 3 minish) - again useful for geting pounded on but only really reliable if u wait 3 min per fight <FONT color=#ffff00>it also provides 100% parry from behind</FONT><BR><BR>and fall of pheonix (group fd) - adds nothing to tanking<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Bruisers get 2 new atks and 1 spell rune. Seems your tsunami and ward are better suited for tanking then the bruisers new spells</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR>Def stances- bruisers and monks are identical, as are all non paladins (pal get 2 resists mag and divine)<BR><BR>Off stances - bruisers get a 10% chance to proc 700-1000 dd, monks get 30% haste (which counts towards a cap)  100% haste is the cap, but theres no limit to amount u can proc.  a bruiser with a flail > a monk with a flail other then monks can now self reach the haste cap, but grouping with a bard or enc lets u drop stance and still reach cap so /shrug...bruisres is better in this regard <FONT color=#ffff00>I may be mistaken by the numbers since i am at work but 700-1000 dam is w/o using wpns. We get about half as much DD proc while using wpns</FONT><BR><BR>Defense buffs <BR>- both get a stone stance clone....2k mitg while stuned for 30sec<BR>-we get 30 sec of 240 mitg, they get 3 min of 1000 mitg at the cost of 100hp for 6 sec (our self haste is roughly 56/ 3 sec).....so not only is our def buff weaker, it lasts much shorter<FONT color=#ffff00> its not 100 hp its percentage based off health i believe 2% currently it costs me 130hp a tick.</FONT><BR><BR>avoidance<BR>-bruisers get more mitigation and identical avoidance. <FONT color=#ffff00>Monks get an additional deflection buff i posted the results in my prior post.</FONT><BR><BR>dps<BR>-bruisers do more dps. <FONT color=#ffff33>Do we ? were are the parses after revamp i was under the impression it is comparable but monks can do as much dps. Not to mention i belive monsk do more stuns/stifles. Use your stuns/stilfes correctly and it makes soling tankign a ton easier.</FONT><BR><BR>Heals<BR>90 sec self heal with higher %...ours is 3 min now but still less cause its used on others <FONT color=#ffff00>I got to get back to you on the % difference but i know my % was lowered from pre-revamp.</FONT><BR><BR>......i know you love your monk and i love mine gaige....but its blatantly over powered to be a bruiser.   They  have better def buffs (especialy considering they are the offenseive part of the brawler) they have IDENTICAL avoidance to the "kings of avoidance" unless you count a monk who pulls 1 time per 3 min with tsunami, then we have a 12 sec advantage on a 45 sec fight....which then is neglected by the fact bruisers mitigation is a whole 1000 higher<BR><BR>bottom line, they do too much dps, get to many defensive buffs, and have no draw back.  the evil half of our class shouldnt be more dps, better tanks, ...im fine with them geting more mitigation, but give monks more avoidance, and nerf the bruiser dps PLS they shouldnt be 100-200 dps ahead of a monk who is WAY more fabled then them if they are gonna also be ahead of us in tanking<FONT color=#ffff00> The classes are close i'll give you that much credit but to say bruiser are massively overpower compared to monks i doubt it. A comparably geared monk should do just as well as a comparably geared bruiser.</FONT><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 AM</span>

[Owa]

<DIV>You know what I hate? <BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR><BR><BR> nerf the bruiser...PLS <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>That's what I hate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you like calling nerf, why don't you go and join your mates on the Guardian forum?</DIV>

[Oneira]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Monks do get an additional deflection buff where as bruisers don't. So i find it hard pressed to say monks have the same avodiance which they don't an equal equipped monk should have more avodiance. For instance my lvl 48 shrug off adept 3 w 50 agi adds only 0.2% more avodi then the lvl 20ish staggering stance at adept 3 w the added deflection. From that point on monks gain more deflection and i gain agi in that combat art line. And from what i see using those 2 spells the added deflection adds more then the agi i recieve. Not only that but i can not raise my deflection any other way. where as my agi at 50 was almost at the cap self buffed i had 325agi self buff cap of 350 (7x lvl). Add 1 agi buffer to my group and i exceeed the cap and recieve no additional benefit from agi. Monks do have more avodiance. I can not test the actual number at 50 accuratly since i dont recieve a monks lvl 50 staggering stance line buff to compare to my shrug off buff. But it seems monks should have more avodiance. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Could you be specific about the additional deflection buff that monks get?  Is it a deflection buff that no one else gets and if so, how well does it work?  Other than our stance (Winding Dragon or Spider Stance....Halcyon Blessing does not give a def and avoidance boost), what other deflection buff do we get?</FONT></DIV>

[Oneira]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> beleive the order is<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR><BR><BR>avoidance<BR>-bruisers get more mitigation and identical avoidance. <FONT color=#ffff00>Monks get an additional deflection buff i posted the results in my prior post.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Pls make that clear....I've often heard about this but after the combat revamp I'm a bit confused about whether and what we still have of this.  I don't have fabled equipment, but I do have all legendary armor,weapons, and most of the good jewelry for my level, and my avoidance is nothing to write home about but it's ok.  All stances are adept 1 (How I envy those ppl who say that most their skills are master or adept III . . . where the he** did they get the drops or the rubies or the money to afford all that?????)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>With Winding Dragon i'm about 60% fully self-buffed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>SPider Stance about 57%</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>Halcyon Blessing puts me at about 51%.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>How does your Bruiser compare?</FONT></P> <DIV><BR><BR>dps<BR>-bruisers do more dps. <FONT color=#ffff33>Do we ? were are the parses after revamp i was under the impression it is comparable but monks can do as much dps. Not to mention i belive monsk do more stuns/stifles. Use your stuns/stilfes correctly and it makes soling tankign a ton easier.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>I'm pretty sure Bruisers get the same number of stuns we do.  You get upgrades at 52 and 55 I believe.  At 50 I have 3 stuns and 1 stifle.  The stifle often does not work it seems (see post on Silent Palm), and the stuns are very short duration, but if Bruisers have no stifle then that would certainly be a plus in the Monk's favor to compensate for less DPS.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#66ffff></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#66ffff>Overall, it seems that stuns and stifles are being resisted much more often than I would like, but that's another issue.</FONT> <DIV><BR><BR>......i know you love your monk and i love mine gaige....but its blatantly over powered to be a bruiser.   They  have better def buffs (especialy considering they are the offenseive part of the brawler) they have IDENTICAL avoidance to the "kings of avoidance" unless you count a monk who pulls 1 time per 3 min with tsunami, then we have a 12 sec advantage on a 45 sec fight....which then is neglected by the fact bruisers mitigation is a whole 1000 higher<BR><BR>bottom line, they do too much dps, get to many defensive buffs, and have no draw back.  the evil half of our class shouldnt be more dps, better tanks, ...im fine with them geting more mitigation, but give monks more avoidance, and nerf the bruiser dps PLS they shouldnt be 100-200 dps ahead of a monk who is WAY more fabled then them if they are gonna also be ahead of us in tanking<FONT color=#ffff00> The classes are close i'll give you that much credit but to say bruiser are massively overpower compared to monks i doubt it. A comparably geared monk should do just as well as a comparably geared bruiser.</FONT><BR></DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>The real issue is whether Bruiser defense can equal ours.  If it can, then there's a problem.  Bruisers should do a bit more damage than we. . .as long as its not a great disparity.  I've not grouped with a 50+ Bruiser yet, but as a Monk I know I'm pretty happy with what I can do.  A nerf to Bruisers is uncalled for unless there's a VERY good reason.</FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Oneira on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:34 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>Ill get the name of the defection buff for you when i get home. its the same line as staggering stance. bruisers loose the deflection buff on it when we upgrade it in higher lvls.</P> <P>bruisers get 0 stilfles and 4 stuns 3 for 3.5 secs and 1 for 2 secs, one of those is positional so i have to be behind the mob and its on a 1 min timer. I will check the monk skills to see as well.</P> <P>Bruisers get no form of haste. I think thats part of the reason monks parse comparable to bruisers. we get the same wpns and the damage on our combat arts are comaparable.. we are still gettign small nerfs every update savage blows lost soem dam and increased cost, the 3 min ac buff has a 3 min reuse after it fades and now costs more hp after todays patch it drains 1300hp every min from me. basically making it useless in soloing now. Any further nerfs to it will make it useless in groups. and  since gaurds still tank most raid mobs it will basically becoem another situational buff.  </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>Gungo is talking about TV, which all fighters get a form of, and only one fighter in a group can have cast.</P> <P>I'd also prefer if he didn't make claims about the monk class when he isn't quite sure what he is talking about, as it only hurts his arguement.</P>

[Gungo]

<DIV>wait so i shouldn't talk about other classes but you are able? TV/shrug off etc stacking is a bug or at least i have feedback/bugged the issued myself. Where was my argument wrong gaige? do monks not get 2 forms of deflection? and bruisers have 1? If you want ill let you log on gun's and you can see that using staggering stance adept3 a lvl 20ish buff only adds 0.2% less avoid then my adept 3 shrugoff a tier 5 buff w 50 agi. please gaige enlighten me with your infinite wisdom.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:06 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>wait so i shouldn't talk about other classes but you are able? TV/shrug off etc stacking is a bug or at least i have feedback/bugged the issued myself. Where was my argument wrong gaige? do monks not get 2 forms of deflection? and bruisers have 1? If you want ill let you log on gun's and you can see that using staggering stance adept3 a lvl 20ish buff only adds 0.2% less avoid then my adept 3 shrugoff a tier 5 buff w 50 agi. please gaige enlighten me with your infinite wisdom.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just merely mentioned you shouldn't make comments that include (I think, but I'll check etc).  /shrug</P> <P>I don't care what/where you post, honestly.</P> <P>TV is the only buff we get that buffs deflection besides our stance, and in almost every group I've been in with a bruiser I never get to cast it because they want to use SO.  Now while I think its a bug too, Jez made a really good point about why he thinks it isn't.  So I'm not so sure anymore.</P> <P>Plus, I'm aware that agility scales horribly, I never said it didn't.<BR></P>

[Gungo]

<P>In that case i guess you are correct gaige i shouldn't make comments that include (i think but ill check). Honestly i do most of my posting during work between details. so i don't have all the figures etc memorized. when i get home i genreally just play :smileyvery-happy: </P> <P>I never saw jez's post if you cna lead me in the right direction it will be greatly apreciated.</P> <P>also i don't know what those bruisers are thinking the bonus from agi i am almost postive doesnt make up for the extra check i get from a monk using TV (or brawler using SO on me for that matter). </P>

[x0rtrun]

<div></div>If the MT is using their own avoidance buff you can always use it on the priest or caster or someone other than the MT and whom ever they are using it on. When I group with my guildies a Pally usually tanks and he uses his buff on the swash in our group due to the agro syphoning component or something like that, so I just use mine on the wizzy who is the next likely person to draw agro. It's better than nothing, and it still gives me the avoidance boost for when i happen to pull agro. the only difference between the bruiser and monk skill is that the monk skill buffs deflection instead of AGI which is far more effective after the change. buffing AGI is pointless in my opinion atm. That's my own big beef about the combat update... stats don't really mean anything now unless you have HEAPS of them. I feel that going STR/STA is much more effective for a monk than going for agi at all. Even if you tank. STR/STA at least gives you more hp, more power, and the mobs die faster. What's the benefit of AGI now anyway? 1agi = 0.1% avoid? pfft. <div></div><p>Message Edited by x0rtrunks on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NamaeZero wrote:<BR> <P>I agree. For masters of avoidance.. we certainly don't avoid any better. <FONT color=#ff0000>There are mages that avoid more, just based on their Very Light armor</FONT>.</P> <P>Monks need a self only avoidance buff. Maybe they could add it to the Everburning Flame line?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How ridiculous is that?</P> <P>SOE is thinking this way: if you are wearing a KungFu Master's cloth, then you are KungFu Master!<BR></P>

[Gungo]

Not exactly jboot, but good try. Please show me a pic of a equally equipped mage w higher avodiance then an equally equiped brawler. either way even if the mage was able to hit 50% avoid he still gets 1-2 shooted everytime

[JBo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>I don't see any problem with the balance between the bruiser and the monk class.  Especially after we get our 52/55/58 skills.  The fact is that<FONT color=#ff0000> I can solo even conned heroics too</FONT>, if they are the right ones.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gratz on your winnings! <FONT size=2>6061 posts definitely has won you a black sash!</FONT></DIV>

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Not exactly jboot, but good try. Please show me a pic of a equally equipped mage w higher avodiance then an equally equiped brawler. either way even if the mage was able to hit 50% avoid he still gets 1-2 shooted everytime <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Mages may not have higher avoidance than brawlers, but they can definitely have equal or even higher avoidance than other fighter classes.</P> <P>My opinion is that: since mages have close to zero physical trainings, they should have close to zero avoidance as well.</P> <P>The logic SOE has certainly doesn't take into account the trainings each class has.</P> <P>Different armor certainly can affect the avoidance values, but these are just side effects, which should only be applied after  each class's special trainings have been taken into account. They should never be the major effects. </P> <P>A reasonable sample system could be like this(After the side effects of armor has been calculated):</P> <P>Monk: Base Avoidance 60%<BR>Bruiser: Base Avoidance 55%<BR>Warrior: Base Avoidance 30%<BR>Mage: Base Avoidance 10%<BR></P> <P>These numbers are just imaginary and can be adjusted, but you got the general idea.</P><p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 PM</span>

[Gungo]

Then a mage who gets resitted would basically get instant killed every time. Its not like anyone is going to use a caster to tank, asking for other classes to get nerfed when they don't cause a problem is really well pointless.

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Then a mage who gets resitted would basically get instant killed every time. Its not like anyone is going to use a caster to tank, asking for other classes to get nerfed when they don't cause a problem is really well pointless. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There is no need to nerf any class. I am just stating the fact. Just wearing very light armor doesn't mean you become a trained fighter automatically. The fact is that plate tank classes have avoidances which are on par with mages right now.<BR> <p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>who sai danythign about them being a trianed fighter lol having high avodiance doesnt mena you are a trained fighter it means you that caster knows how to move out of the wy when he seesa guy 3x his size coming at him. He is liek that kid at school that gets beat up all the time eventaully he learns how to dodge a few blows. </P> <P>wow now this thread has gotten derailed =p</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:08 PM</span>

[Jobeson]

<div></div>Bruisers can self buff their agi by much more than 100 points this is also up in defence or offence position.  This is where they get their mad avoidance and dps from.  We only buff our str and wis true we have more wis for casting mobs which is where we are weak at but I dont feel it is equal to the 100+ agi buffs bruisers get.  Note this is their 2 buffs added together.  Ive still beaten down every bruiser I fought though.  Even though they have higher avoidance when no fabled vs a semi fabled monk. I dont think their avoidance should be as high as it is with only agility but our is still high.  and agi in small doeses does suck for the most part.  IE put on some big fabled leather boots with 16 agi then put on Gebs with no agi and your avoidance goes up bc of the very light why did they take away the fabled avoidance enhancer thats just wrong. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jobeson on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:11 AM</span>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jobeson wrote:<div></div>Bruisers can self buff their agi by much more than 100 points this is also up in defence or offence position.  This is where they get their mad avoidance and dps from.  We only buff our str and wis true we have more wis for casting mobs which is where we are weak at but I dont feel it is equal to the 100+ agi buffs bruisers get.  Note this is their 2 buffs added together.  Ive still beaten down every bruiser I fought though.  Even though they have higher avoidance when no fabled vs a semi fabled monk. I dont think their avoidance should be as high as it is with only agility but our is still high.  and agi in small doeses does suck for the most part.  IE put on some big fabled leather boots with 16 agi then put on Gebs with no agi and your avoidance goes up bc of the very light why did they take away the fabled avoidance enhancer thats just wrong. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jobeson on <span class="date_text">09-22-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:11 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'd happily swap the +agi on Shrug Off to +Deflection. The inpact the Agility has is rather minimal with stats capped at 7 x Character Level.</span><div></div>

[Gungo]

yeah at lvl 50 i had 325agi self buffed 25 poitn shy of the cap of 350 add 1 buffer to group and i am already at the cap. anyone else buffing agi wont do a thing for me and i am not even half fabled.

[Jobeson]

True if there is a buffer in the group for agi then monks get the better deal but its rare to get in a group with a bard for me.  Maby thats just me though. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>douing w a fury friend in guild i had over 360+ agi i had to take off my 2 agi dolls and replace them w 2 sta dolls and was still over the cap yesterday.</DIV>

[Crunion]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>I beleive the order is<BR><BR>Outwardclam (3k self rune duration 5 sec, recast a few min) - lvl52, useful as a second mend sort, basicly when u almost get one shoted u can buy ur healer 5 extra sec to heal you.<BR><BR> <P>Just gonna fix this :  Outward calm adept 3 ia 4365 ward vs magic attack and lasts 15 secs. I have this and it helps alot when fighting groups of mobs.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ribbitz]

<DIV>Transendance Vision increases our deflection, yes. But barely. The deflection goes up barely over a levels worth. It must be cast on a group mate, so if you're soloing its not really practical to be able to use it. In group situations where theres another fighter you can't really use it either. Other fighters constantly put it on you if you're tanking, everyone believes its better to have them defending you than it is for you to have a very small deflection buff (and theyre probably right) and when you arn't the tank, the deflection buff means squat. Plus, the fighter always sticks his protection on the healer and overwrites yours anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only time I get to actually use TV is when I'm duoing and I must say the differences is not noticable in the deflection regard.</DIV>

[Ildarus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <DIV>You know what I hate? <BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR><BR><BR> nerf the bruiser...PLS <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>That's what I hate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you like calling nerf, why don't you go and join your mates on the Guardian forum?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I wonder if Dfoley and Jboots are the same person?:smileywink:<BR>

[Ildarus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Then a mage who gets resitted would basically get instant killed every time. Its not like anyone is going to use a caster to tank, asking for other classes to get nerfed when they don't cause a problem is really well pointless. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There is no need to nerf any class. I am just stating the fact. Just wearing very light armor doesn't mean you become a trained fighter automatically. The fact is that plate tank classes have avoidances which are on par with mages right now.<BR> <P>Message Edited by JBoot on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:56 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As it probably should be. You are wearing plate mail. This is a form of metal plates that weigh a lot. There for you should have trouble walking in the armor that is depicted in this game, let alone thinking you need a 50% avoidence. My god, in reality if you tried to bob and weave in plate you would fall flat on your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] or face.

[ikao]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=19641" target=_blank><SPAN>JBoot</SPAN></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You cant forget to take race into account.</DIV>

[Gungo]

Ribbitz you do know the effect of TV does stay on the monk after he disbands group. You dont lose the buff unelss you die or you unclic the buff. my point was the avoidnace tv adds is more then the avoidance SO adds. 

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ribbitz wrote:<BR> <DIV>Transendance Vision increases our deflection, yes. But barely. The deflection goes up barely over a levels worth. <FONT color=#ff0000>It must be cast on a group mate, so if you're soloing its not really practical to be able to use it</FONT>. In group situations where theres another fighter you can't really use it either. Other fighters constantly put it on you if you're tanking, everyone believes its better to have them defending you than it is for you to have a very small deflection buff (and theyre probably right) and when you arn't the tank, the deflection buff means squat. Plus, the fighter always sticks his protection on the healer and overwrites yours anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only time I get to actually use TV is when I'm duoing and I must say the differences is not noticable in the deflection regard.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If you want to use TV (or Overtaking Blows as a Bruiser etc.) whilst soloing, simply beat the Pit Champ (which is almost impossible NOT to to succeeed at post-revamp), scribe the Little Freaky Mushroom Pet spell and presto! - a constant target for your group-based buffs.</DIV>

[Flachett]

mushroom pet --> very nice trick thank you for posting