What's the point of giving Brawlers the highest HP?

[JBo]

<DIV>First of all, I am not against the class balancing. Actually, I was the first one ever to post on class balancing issues since EQII released.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, SOE has definitely gone way too far this time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's take a view what each subclass take and give. I will compare monks with guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Monk: Highest HP, Highest Avoidance, Highest DPS, Medium Heal, Lowest Mitigation,  Lowest Power.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>2) Guardian: Medium HP, Lowest Avoidance, Lowest DPS, No Heal, Highest Mitigation,  Medium Power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the 6 important areas which are vital to fighters:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks got 3 high ranks, 1 medium rank, 2 low ranks.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Guardians got 1 high rank, 2 medium ranks, 2 low ranks, and 1 no rank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can anyone do some math and tell me this is balanced?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE, if you truely want to make the fighter classes balanced, please correct this issue as soon as possible!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think it's difficult to balance the fighter subclasses, why not just go the simple way:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let all fighter classes have the same HP!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are a monk and you want maximum HP, you can still work on your Stamina and maximize it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't posted in a while, but I can assure you that I am not going to stop posting until this serious issue being resolved.</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Almeric_CoS]

<DIV>In the end, the high mitigation of the Guardians counts for a lot more than being top in 1 category.  The high mitigation is balanced against high avoidance AND high hitpoints AND the occasional heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's how valuable Guardian mitigation is =P</DIV>

[JBo]

<DIV>Please compare some numbers instead of just saying that some mitigation bonus is worth than all the others. Plus there is a mitigation cap there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks currently are doing way more DPS than guardians. Do guardians take way less damages than monks? Plus most mobs do arcane damages, and the mitigation bonus guardians got don't even count to arcane damages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, have these changes been fully tested in beta? Where is the product quality control?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just take a look at PvP. There is just no chance for a guardian to win a monk right now, at same level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pluse, tank is NOT DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If monks want to tank, please give up your DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until you have DPS in the same range as other fighter classes, please just give up tanking abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Almeric_CoS]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do guardians take way less damages than monks? <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[JBo]

<DIV>Please post your parse to support your claim that monks are currently taking way more damages than guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please remember, for arcane damages, the mitigation don't even count. This means, guardians are taking EXACTLY SAME arcane damages as monks. And most epic mobs will certainly do arcane damages, in big numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suppose a monk and a guardian have same WIS and same arcane resistances. On a pull of Epic raid mobs, the boss mob will do the EXACTLY same arcane damages to both the monk and the guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the guardian can be dead in one shot when the arcane damage is equal to his HP, while the extra HP monk got can save him from dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this the balance that you are talking about???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this what you are expecting???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine if SOE gives different power pools to different mage classes, and the outroar it will bring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Almeric_CoS]

<DIV>Look, I'm not parsing squat for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want some early proof, then keep trolling the monk forum:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=21033" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=21033</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than that, go play and see combat in action for yourself.  Christ the patch just went live YESTERDAY.  Half the populace couldn't even play last night, and at least half of those who couldn't haven't taken the time to explore all their new powers yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm done feeding you now.  Take your ranting elsewhere, please.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[JBo]

<DIV>If you don't want to post, please don't post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You think I haven't played last night?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't even care to post on this forum if I haven't played.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is just outrageous. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nefari]

<span><blockquote><hr>JBoot wrote:<div>Please post your parse to support your claim that monks are currently taking way more damages than guardians.</div> <div> </div> <div>Please remember, for arcane damages, the mitigation don't even count. This means, guardians are taking EXACTLY SAME arcane damages as monks. And most epic mobs will certainly do arcane damages, in big numbers.</div> <div> </div> <div>Suppose a monk and a guardian have same WIS and same arcane resistances. On a pull of Epic raid mobs, the boss mob will do the EXACTLY same arcane damages to both the monk and the guardian.</div> <div> </div> <div>However, the guardian can be dead in one shot when the arcane damage is equal to his HP, while the extra HP monk got can save him from dying.</div> <div> </div> <div>Is this the balance that you are talking about???</div> <div> </div> <div>Is this what you are expecting???</div> <div> </div> <div>Imagine if SOE gives different power pools to different mage classes, and the outroar it will bring.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> 1. Monks, in full defensive mode, still cannot take nearly the thumping a Guardian can.  Play the game, watch the Monk get aggro, and you'll see this.  We're better than we were, but we're still not plate tanks.  Your spot atop the tanking world isn't being challenged...though your taunts are now awful and need upgrading. 2. As for Epic mobs doing more arcane dmg...you are basing this on...?  From the way they have reworked the heals and cure lines, it's looking like TRAUMA AoE's are going to be more common now, not magical ones.  Also, if you read the patch notes...Epic mobs no longer can cast nukes far and away more powerful than PC's can.  No more 14k Ice Comets.  3. Have you even LOOKED at the differences?  They are NOT large. Seriously, play the game.  Just reading that Monks have more hp and posting makes you look like a fool.</span><div></div>

[Bladewind]

I compared abilities with a gaurdian friend (we are both lvl 50), and she had several arts that did drastcially more damage than any of mine.  Are you sure about your dps claims?  My highest art does 405 max damage (with the rest in the 200-300 range), but hers was over 700, with others above 400...   Are you properly using yoru stances?  They make a tremendous difference in your abilities.  I participated in beta, and therefore had a good idea of what adjustments I had to make and how my new abilities worked.  If you just received all of your new abilities now, I'd suggest playing more and re-learning your class before claiming a disparity and demanding dps logs from anyone who disagreed with you.  You didn't show any post patch logs to verify your own claims anyway...  My dps is drasticlaly lower than what it was prepatch.  My guardian friend told me hers was significantly higher.  Sounds like balancing rather than disparity to me... <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS Arbitrarily picking categories and giving them equal wieght without sound reasoning makes for a flawed comparison.  Your inclusion of the heal when comparing monks to guardians is a good example.  The monk heal has little to no impact at all due to the long reuse timer.  The principle balance is between mitigation and avoidance.  If you look at a monk fully-self-buffed defensively and a guardian the same way, you'll see that the guardian has a higher mitigation advantage than the monk's avoidance advantage.   Going back to comparing with my friend, she had about 24-30% more mitigation than me, but I only had baout 20% more avoidance than her.  She was also wearing tobrin's eyepatch at the time and did not have a shield equipped, so both her mit and avoidance would increase even more if she were to equip into a full tanking mode.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Bladewind on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:12 AM</span>

[Gaige]

LoL @ this thread.

[Neimhidh]

<P>stop feeding the trolls.  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P>How about you parse and PROVE that monks are so uber and guardians suck so bad?</P>

[Ceist X'Ta]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:LoL @ this thread. <div></div><hr></blockquote> <span>:smileyvery-happy: I'm with you Gaige LOL</span></span><div></div>

[JBo]

<P>Yes, you monks can laugh out loudly at this time.</P> <P>But beware of the coming nerf bats. Don't cry when it comes, as it will hit you next time.</P> <P> </P>

[Ceist X'Ta]

<div></div>/<span>Violin </span><div></div>

[etch666]

<DIV>I dont undertsnad why guardians are moaning so much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before changes you were far and away the best raid tank going, MT being the role you all created you char for, so you all say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now after changes guess what? You are still no.1 raid tank,  so whats the difference? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have lost buffs etc but what does it means in the end? You will be the ones standing toe to toe with the dragons while we will be (hopefully) trying to contribute -something- to the raid that warrants a raid invite.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see some guards talking about lack of dps, or utility compared to brawlers. Your utility before changes was probably just being MA, backup tank, offtank. None of that has changed either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can now tank comfortably, not as well as you. Please dont seek to get other classes nerfed because you are afraid your role will be taken away, which I can tell you now, it wont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bonesbro]

<P>I believe the difference in naked, unbuffed HP is ~100.  It's a very small difference.  And please consider the impact of your buffs: Guardians can buff their HP.  Monk's can't.  Self-buffed, I have ~3900 HP and the MT Guardian in my guild has ~5200.</P> <P>In my opinion, the argument for giving Brawlers the highest unbuffed HP is to slightly offset the damage streaks that avoidance tanking is prone to.  If you have two tanks who take exactly the same average damage per second over a long period of time, where one of them takes damage in spikes and one of them takes damage steadily, the one who takes steady damage is a better tank.  If we miss a couple of block rolls in a row against special attacks, we die.  A mitigation tank will be alive.  It doesn't matter if we blocked every hit for the last five minutes: splat.  If the avoidance tank had slightly higher HP, he might still be standing there with 12 hp, giving the group/raid a chance to not lose.  The mitigation tank doesn't need that minor advantage.</P> <P>And, given that Guardians self-buff to significantly higher than Brawlers, it's a moot point, eh?</P>

[Kota]

sounds like (censored) envy to me.  i've made several posts about low mitigation being un-forgiving for a tank.  avoidance is neat, but when a mob hits a monk, it makes a squishy noise.  you can make up your own numbers and run some scenarios, but basically the extra hp is to allow a healer to put down his/her soda, and cast a heal on a monk.  mitigation tanks' damage spikes are, well, mitigated.  the damage intake of a plate tank is more predictable.  please don't hate on the monks, or try to salt our game, yo. <div></div>

[Tilane]

<DIV>i got one shotted by an epicx2 today gaurdian in same group lived trough 3 hits ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also his HP selfbuffed is allot higher then me</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and i seriusly doubt it that on "see above" 1 shot mobs , we are supposed to be tanking the heals doesnt do much when dead ...</DIV>

[TheHidden]

play a flipping monk before you go whining. ive been a monk since the first day and if you think they can tank you better wake up. after patch ive been nerfed somehwat cronic. in my perception at least. maybe game will get more challenging / or whatever.. but all my skills were cut in damage by close to 50%. my one defense skill that actually helped make me tank green mobs for my friends is gone. and my reistances are cut. i lost 22% to my total max avoidence. so in effect.. monks after patch. do WAY less damage then before. AND tank worse.. id hate to think that you uneducated unpractised whining had anything to do with it. green solo encounters are now a danger. and i can completly forget soloing theway i was doing before. these changes are to bring everyone more inline with eachother atthe highers levels. they did their homework. ugh..man those monks are uber and will tank well better than other classes is crap.. when a solo encounter 7 levels below you can wipe half your health at your max buffed levels and you see people have been whining about their stats... you just get a lil annoyed. <div></div>

[Zink]

<DIV>OMG! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Askan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Valhall - Splitpaw</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <DIV>However, the guardian can be dead in one shot when the arcane damage is equal to his HP, while the extra HP monk got can save him from dying. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.</P> <P>Wow.</P> <P>Dude you should try stand up.  Seriously.  I'm crying irl.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheHidden wrote:<BR>but all my skills were cut in damage by close to 50%. my one defense skill that actually helped make me tank green mobs for my friends is gone. and my reistances are cut. i lost 22% to my total max avoidence.<BR><BR>so in effect.. monks after patch. do WAY less damage then before. AND tank worse.. id hate to think that you uneducated unpractised whining had anything to do with it. green solo encounters are now a danger. and i can completly forget soloing theway i was doing before. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1) You need to compare your current skills/attributes to other classes skills/attributes.  You just can not compare pre-DoF to DoF.  Everything has changed.</P> <P>2)  You need to take some time and learn how to play your monk.  We do less DPS but its still more than adequate.  We tank WAY better.  We hold aggro way better, even through the loss of the broken reactives.  Green solos should *not* be a danger if you are using your skills correctly and playing your class adequately.</P> <P>Remember, its only been live, what, 40 hours or so?  You have a lot to learn about the <EM>new</EM> monk class.</P> <P>I for one can't think of anything about the monk class pre-changes that I prefer over the current monk.  But maybe I'm biased.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 AM</span>

[Lebr]

<P>Whats really funny is the fact  he posted on the monk board like he expected monks to say "Yeah your right</P> <P>The game feels so much better now  just being able to hold aggro is really nice. /bow</P>

[Jobeson]

<div></div>I sorta agree with him now though.  When I am in a group I have 65% avoidance and 2000 mitigation a guardian in the same group with a shield and all is 2500 mitigation and around 30% avoidance  When I ask him what his mitigation percentage is he tells me around 47%  I personly think their mitigation should be closer to 60% to counter our avoidance.  (60% mitigation 30% avoidance guardians and 60% avoidance 30% mitigation monks) these are just average stats ofcourse gear means all the difference and I am half fabled hes only like 2 items or so but he still is only 500 more mitigation in full ebon.  oh and up it for the other plate classes aswell ofcourse. ATM I am better than my guardian friend and holding ONEMOBs hate and tanking in a group setting.  In a raid setting I am not sure havnt done those yet its only been a day.  But I do think plate tanks need more mitigation then what they have.  all hail the new MT WOOT!? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jobeson on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[Brus]

----------- play a flipping monk before you go whining. ive been a monk since the first day and if you think they can tank you better wake up. after patch ive been nerfed somehwat cronic. in my perception at least. maybe game will get more challenging / or whatever.. but all my skills were cut in damage by close to 50%. my one defense skill that actually helped make me tank green mobs for my friends is gone. and my reistances are cut. i lost 22% to my total max avoidence. when a solo encounter 7 levels below you can wipe half your health at your max buffed levels and you see people have been whining about their stats... you just get a lil annoyed. ----------- Um, TheHidden... I mean no disrespect since you obviously have played a monk a far greater amount of time than I have however if you will accept some advice from a relative monk n00b might I suggest perhaps you wear your armor and wield your weapons instead of keeping them safe and shiny in your bags? Perhaps you are having problems with the new half sized bag bug that came about if you used a custom UI prior to DOF.  There is a fix posted on the Desert of Flames message section then you can find your armor and weapons easier so they can be worn. Of course that is kind of insulting but it's a possibility if green mobs are taking you to the backroom like that without so much as a kiss before or after.  Another possibility might be that the armor you received on the refugee island.  At this point (I'm presuming that you're over level 20 by now), that armor and attendent weapons are what they call 'gray' and no longer afford any protective or damage benefits.  I'm sure a local craftsman would be happy to hook you up with some level appropriate gear at  a fairly affordable price.  Perhaps if you showed him this post s/he might even do it for free out of charity (I've found EQ2 players to be a fairly friendly bunch). My monk is merely level 24 and as tempted as I've been to twink him I've only given in twice (he has a pair of rare weapons).  My armor is nothing to write home about, all dropped stuff, some of it getting a bit green or grey around the edges.  I'll go further to admit that I didn't go monk until the frogloks came in (I'm sure you can guess my race now).  So my experience is nowhere near as vast as yours.  I, however, rarely get the beat down from yellow con on down solo mobs.  I can take an orange if I'm feeling daring though I'm about 50/50 on victory rate. I have only tanked for a group twice (I picked monk for it's solo ability which seemed very high watching my guild monks while not being stupid as in watching our guild warlocks own everything shy of epics and rumors abound).  The first time I did so I admit we got owned an even con named.  Being a healer by nature I forgot that you guys actually have and use taunt.  My healer was very forgiving and we all got quite a laugh out of it.  The second attempt on the named went much better. My second group tanking experience was silly easy, we were taking out everything we came across in TS and I was taking the hits just fine.  As has been noted, avoidance tanks do suffer a problem in the old theory between a flyweight and a super heavy weight boxer.  Sure the flyweight is faster but it only takes ONE hit from the heavy weight and he's got all night to land it.  That's the burden of the monk/bruiser though and we all made that choice.  Generally speaking I'd say our guild monks in group at least tank as well as our guardians.  In raids we all prefer our guardians though we've had some nice saves by our monks. In all seriousness though, I feel you really need to look into your gear and playing style if you're getting owned by greens.  First char I turned to when DoF went live was my monk because I wanted to get an idea of how healing was going to look before I logged on my Inqi.  Walk a mile in their shoes and all that nonsense.  I hopped over to TS, picked a likely looking solo white con and went to town.  Was a bit different, a bit slower than I'm used to but really no issue.  In fact I think I took less damage than I normally did pre-DoF.  I know that's not hard parser data or nothing but well, if you're getting pwned by green solos and I'm eating up white solos.... Cheers, Sohr Level 50ish Inqi (and 24ish monk, and 20ish wizard, and 30ish dirge) Healing Officer Infinity Guild Oasis "Nobody expects the Ratonga Inquisition!" <div></div>

[bonesbro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jobeson wrote:<BR> I sorta agree with him now though.  When I am in a group I have 65% avoidance and 2000 mitigation a guardian in the same group with a shield and all is 2500 mitigation and around 30% avoidance  <BR><BR>When I ask him what his mitigation percentage is he tells me around 47%  I personly think their mitigation should be closer to 60% to counter our avoidance.  (60% mitigation 30% avoidance guardians and 60% avoidance 30% mitigation monks) these are just average stats ofcourse gear means all the difference and I am half fabled hes only like 2 items or so but he still is only 500 more mitigation in full ebon.  oh and up it for the other plate classes aswell ofcourse.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Jobeson on <SPAN class=date_text>09-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:55 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hmm.  From comparing with my guild's MT, he's got ~950 more mitigation and has about 50% avoidance to my 65%, as well as 1300 more HP.  His gear is better - he's mostly fabled, I'm mostly legendary/treasured.  But the avoidance number is the most interesting - I wonder why your tank is at 30% avoidance and ours is at 50%?  That's self-buffed in defensive stance.</DIV>

[Waung]

<DIV>have to say i'm loving the changes!  sure my mitigation/HP stayed the same and my avoidance went down about 18% but the mobs all got changed too so who knows what that means.  i'm having a blast and really enjoying the new stuff, my offensive stance is actuallly worth something (i even solo'd a yellow 1 down and forgot to change to defensive but i rocked em).  i'm soloing better than i did before the patch against solo mobs, but heroics demolish me without a group, which is how it should be imo.  this entire thread just makes me laugh, all i seem to see in these forums is guardians whining and moaning about what other classes have that they dont, or a class is better than them at something, quit crying, it's a game play it and enjoy it.  if you cant do that find another game,</DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV>I come here to see how Monks like the changes and I very disappointedly find Jboot here taunting the monks.  Sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a little early to be able to say that your extra HP's are really that big of a bonus.  Though I do see Jboots point.   You traded mitigation for more HP's.  Again it's too early to really see the impact of this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes a guardians mitigation got severely nerfed.   I take a lot more damage now and very rarely does a mob miss me.  I only hope that the healers can keep up with the damage.  If our mitigation base was a tad higher it might not be as bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again Jboot stop taunting the Monks.  :smileywink:</DIV>

[x0rtrun]

You really have to remember that it's just the base hp that has changed and it's only gone up by a very small amount. We can't buff our hp like a guardian can, and itemization seems to favour more hp on plate gear. Once the guard is buffed, there is no contest. <div></div>

[Neimhidh]

<P>Apparantly, Jbooties has decided that now even mages tank better than guardians... :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P>I for one think that all mobs should beat up the mages first in all fights.</P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17519" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17519</A></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Neimhidh on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neimhidh wrote:<BR> <P>Apparantly, Jbooties has decided that now even mages tank better than guardians... :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P>I for one think that all mobs should beat up the mages first in all fights.</P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17519" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17519</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Neimhidh on <SPAN class=date_text>09-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:31 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey if what he says in that thread happened, monks are in trouble too.   Have not grouped with a necro yet.  But if they are not getting hit, I'd say there is a problem.    Any mage type should be in trouble if a mob gets on them.</DIV>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neimhidh wrote:<BR> <P>Apparantly, Jbooties has decided that now even mages tank better than guardians... :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P>I for one think that all mobs should beat up the mages first in all fights.</P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17519" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17519</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Neimhidh on <SPAN class=date_text>09-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:31 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey if what he says in that thread happened, monks are in trouble too.   Have not grouped with a necro yet.  But if they are not getting hit, I'd say there is a problem.    Any mage type should be in trouble if a mob gets on them.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dont really see this as ever becoming the tanks biggest concern, so the dps takes agro and sooner or later he will die. As it is right now, he will share his debt with his pet, no one else. Sooner or later these dps people will learn where the limit is for tanks to keep agro and they will live with it.</P> <P> </P> <P>They cannot spam skills/spells like they used to do and not pay the price. And let it be known now that i am in favor of shared debt, but if it can work for me this way i will let it :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P>Our biggest concern at the moment should be our power usage, for me as a bruiser to keep agro from dps doing well above 250 dps i am almost constantly oop. </P> <p>Message Edited by Dananeb on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:35 PM</span>

[Fless]

ok 1st off monks cant tank as well as guardians so saying that we have the highest hp and that makes us better then guardians is just stupid. Monks got higher hp because when we take dmg we take alot of dmg all at once. This gives the healers time to heal us. Guardians are plate wearers so mitigation is the name of the game. I dont see a problem with monks being able to heal every 2 minutes for 26% that doesnt allow us to do alot. We have the ability to save ourselves or a group member. While the guardian is tanking the mob we can be behind it doing our superior dps because that is how the devs developed it. It seems logical to me. Maybe im just a newb. What do I know? <div></div>

[JBo]

<DIV>Guardians simply can't tank as well as brawlers now. Mitigation, HP, avoidance, defense, buffs have all been nerfed a lot. A single nerf of any one of these is aleady enough if you think guardians were overpowered. Now, add 5 major nerfs together, what would you get? The answer is quite simple, the worst tank you can think of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until this issue is resolved, I don't think everyone here will get a peaceful mind. </DIV>

[Scil]

<P>OK 1st off ill state im not a guardian or a monk or any tank for that matter im an inquisitor so this makes my input valuable why you may ask? because i keep the tank alive.</P> <P>using 50 monk tank vs 51-54 mobs-monks tanking fine before using reactive style healing monks/bruisers were very hard for me to keep alive now its easy damage is managable and evasion works well still had time to debuff between heals.</P> <P>using 50 guardian tank vs 51-54 mobs-got hit alot more often than the monk of course however damage isnt as severe used a bit more reactive and a bit less spot healing as opposed to monk still had time to debuff as well.</P> <P>overall power levels were around the same with each tiem of tank i used for that group session both held agro just fine and tanked well without being a burden on my power pool.</P>

[Dalick]

<P>Ok JBoots, after I first saw this post yesterday I logged in game to check out some the the plate tanks in equal or as close to what I have on. All Legedary no fabled gear. What I saw was a few Tanks that had maybe 80-90 HP less then me and a few SK/Pally who had up to 200 HP more than me.</P> <P>Exactly what is it you are complaining about... 80-90 stinking HP differance? I hope not. Before the revamp Guards that I normaly inspected had around 400-500 mroe HP than me. Right now I have 200 less HP myself after the revamp. My Avoidance dropped 25% and not sure on midigation never kept tabs on that one. So at best Plate tanks lost 2% of thier over all HP... and thats stretching it.</P> <P>I read these boards and I log in to test for myself these changes that people say are wrong. I dont just spew false info just because I dont like the face value of a change made. Try it sometime.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sbazt]

<span><blockquote><hr>JBoot wrote:<p>Yes, you monks can laugh out loudly at this time.</p> <p>But beware of the coming nerf bats. Don't cry when it comes, as it will hit you next time.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>JBoot, the only thing your one man crusade against brawlers is doing is.... making you look like a fool. instead of calling for nerfs like a baby, go to the guardian forums and start a constructive thread about the actuall problems guardians are having and some possible solutions.  it is much more likely to be listened to than the sillyness your spewing up here.</span><div></div>

[Ildarus]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sbaztik wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <P>Yes, you monks can laugh out loudly at this time.</P> <P>But beware of the coming nerf bats. Don't cry when it comes, as it will hit you next time.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>JBoot, the only thing your one man crusade against brawlers is doing is.... making you look like a fool.<BR>instead of calling for nerfs like a baby, go to the guardian forums and start a constructive thread about the actuall problems guardians are having and some possible solutions.  it is much more likely to be listened to than the sillyness your spewing up here.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is what I tried telling him in another thread that he invaded in the Monk forum. He seems to think that he is going to get something done here and all he is doing is [Removed for Content] Monks off and making himself look like fool. Talk to the other Guardians, you might find that some of them aren't finding the same problems you are. All your doing is looking at numbers pre-vamp and comparing them post vamp. Sorry that isn't the only thing to take into account. They changed everything.</P>

[PantherXX]

<DIV>Correct me if I am wrong, but guardians also have HP/STA buffs, right?  Monks don't.  So self buffed, I would wager that most guardians are at the same lvl or slightly higher than most monks.  As someone else mentioned, only the BASE value was tweaked and the difference is not that big.</DIV>

[Ceist X'Ta]

Maybe its not that Guardians have been nerfed, its just that.. Monks > JBoot and he just assumes his class was nerfed. <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Almeric_CoS]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ceist X'Tant wrote:<BR><BR>Monks > JBoot<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That would be a great sig quote <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV>With the HP buffs I'm (41 guardian in fulginate) slightly higher (66HP) higher than a 42 monk in rare imbued armor.   When the 30 second HP buff wears off he's roughly 30HP above me.   Trying to find out how much more HP/STA the monk gets for his armor vs what I have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I'd say that guardians and monks are pretty close when it comes to HP's buffed and unbuffed.</DIV>

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>JBoot wrote:<div>Guardians simply can't tank as well as brawlers now. Mitigation, HP, avoidance, defense, buffs have all been nerfed a lot. A single nerf of any one of these is aleady enough if you think guardians were overpowered. Now, add 5 major nerfs together, what would you get? The answer is quite simple, the worst tank you can think of.</div> <div> </div> <div>Until this issue is resolved, I don't think everyone here will get a peaceful mind. </div><hr></blockquote>    Yes, the revamp hasn't been kind to Guards in terms of overall power.  We've lost an immense ammount of absolute tanking ability and some, but not all of our relative tanking advantage over other fighters.  We've lost DPS.  We've lost a *huge* ammount of taunting ability.  (3 of 7 taunts from pre-revamp, just gone.)  We can buff about a third as much HP as we used to, and our defense buff, which was once the crown jewel of our skill-book, now functions more like a minor agility buff than anything else.  We've lost a lot of minor effects like stifle and our long-range pulling spell.  About the only thing the class has gained is some avoidance buffs we can cast on others, one with an aggro reduction component, and they *finally* made our protection spells function in a way that doesn't guarantee group suicide.     That being said, it has been my experience that we still tank better than brawlers.  I've spent time grouping with bruiser guild-mates and letting them tank, or at times we'd alternate pulls and both tank so the DPS never got a rest.  Against a single target their taunt capability is very effective, but against groups we do hold aggro much more easily.  They do fine when tanking a small number of mobs, but when things get dicey we bear up under damage better, even when we have our avoidance and protection buffs on the bruiser.  It's no longer a night and day difference, but we definately still have our edge.       Yes, bruisers using the beta-buffed T6 fabled gear were able to achieve identical mitigation to guardians, on  beta.    (with a buff that has since been changed to have a duration of 3 minutes)  However, I have been told by a fairly reliable source that the beta-buffed LA used for those comparisons had aberrantly high mitigation values that are much higher than what we'll see on live T6 fabled.  I'll wait to see some T6 fabled LA to verify this, but I seriously doubt that SOE would allow the most offensive avoidance based tank to walk around with comparable mitigation to the most defensive mitigation based tank in the game.      I just can't figure out the changes to base health however.  It's a fairly minor ammount.  Certainly not enough to have any significant impact on brawlers' ability to tank.  As many others have stated, differences in gear and buffs tend to dominate.  I'm not the least bit concerned by it from a gameplay perspective.   Conceptually, it makes no sense for a class that specializes in nimbly dodging attacks to have more health than a class that specializes in standing there and getting hit.  In terms of the offense/defense hierarchy Moorgard posted early in the revamp process, it makes no sense for the most offensive tanks to have the most base health and least base power.  For the system to make logical sense on paper, warriors would have had the most HP/least power, brawlers the most power/least HP, and *crusaders* should have been the middle ground.  But, EQ2's combat system is already full of illogical inconsistencies, so I suppose wracking up yet another one is no big deal. With the revamp, aggro management is finally a concern.  I freely admit that it was a tad unbalanced being able to taunt a mob off a wizard (before it even hit him) when he was *pulling* with Ice Comet.  The first couple days after the revamp were just pure frustration, not because I didn't know how to hold aggro, but because other classes didn't know how to avoid it, and they now actually have to do so.  (I know the no shared exp debt change is going to bork us tanks in the long run, but right now it's sort of humorous watching scouts and mages learn aggro-control the hard way. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)   We can't pull blue group mobs and solo them while AFK now either. (Doh!)  Oh well.  The game is still fun.  The best thing you can do is just forget about what we were pre-revamp.  That class is gone.  </span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Corvan wrote: <P><SPAN>   Yes, the revamp hasn't been kind to Guards in terms of overall power.  We've lost an immense ammount of absolute tanking ability and some, but not all of our relative tanking advantage over other fighters.  We've lost DPS.  We've lost a *huge* ammount of taunting ability.  (3 of 7 taunts from pre-revamp, just gone.)  We can buff about a third as much HP as we used to, and our defense buff, which was once the crown jewel of our skill-book, now functions more like a minor agility buff than anything else.  We've lost a lot of minor effects like stifle and our long-range pulling spell.  About the only thing the class has gained is some avoidance buffs we can cast on others, one with an aggro reduction component, and they *finally* made our protection spells function in a way that doesn't guarantee group suicide.<BR><BR>   That being said, it has been my experience that we still tank better than brawlers.  I've spent time grouping with bruiser guild-mates and letting them tank, or at times we'd alternate pulls and both tank so the DPS never got a rest.  Against a single target their taunt capability is very effective, but against groups we do hold aggro much more easily.  They do fine when tanking a small number of mobs, but when things get dicey we bear up under damage better, even when we have our avoidance and protection buffs on the bruiser.  It's no longer a night and day difference, but we definately still have our edge.  <BR><BR>   Yes, bruisers using the beta-buffed T6 fabled gear were able to achieve identical mitigation to guardians, on  beta.    (with a buff that has since been changed to have a duration of 3 minutes)  However, I have been told by a fairly reliable source that the beta-buffed LA used for those comparisons had aberrantly high mitigation values that are much higher than what we'll see on live T6 fabled.  I'll wait to see some T6 fabled LA to verify this, but I seriously doubt that SOE would allow the most offensive avoidance based tank to walk around with comparable mitigation to the most defensive mitigation based tank in the game. <BR><BR>   I just can't figure out the changes to base health however.  It's a fairly minor ammount.  Certainly not enough to have any significant impact on brawlers' ability to tank.  As many others have stated, differences in gear and buffs tend to dominate.  I'm not the least bit concerned by it from a gameplay perspective.   Conceptually, it makes no sense for a class that specializes in nimbly dodging attacks to have more health than a class that specializes in standing there and getting hit.  In terms of the offense/defense hierarchy Moorgard posted early in the revamp process, it makes no sense for the most offensive tanks to have the most base health and least base power.  For the system to make logical sense on paper, warriors would have had the most HP/least power, brawlers the most power/least HP, and *crusaders* should have been the middle ground.  But, EQ2's combat system is already full of illogical inconsistencies, so I suppose wracking up yet another one is no big deal.<BR><BR>With the revamp, aggro management is finally a concern.  I freely admit that it was a tad unbalanced being able to taunt a mob off a wizard (before it even hit him) when he was *pulling* with Ice Comet.  The first couple days after the revamp were just pure frustration, not because I didn't know how to hold aggro, but because other classes didn't know how to avoid it, and they now actually have to do so.  (I know the no shared exp debt change is going to bork us tanks in the long run, but right now it's sort of humorous watching scouts and mages learn aggro-control the hard way. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)   We can't pull blue group mobs and solo them while AFK now either. (Doh!)  Oh well.  The game is still fun.  The best thing you can do is just forget about what we were pre-revamp.  That class is gone.  </SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Great post Corvan.  <STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc33 size=5>*****</FONT></STRONG><BR>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <DIV>Guardians simply can't tank as well as brawlers now. Mitigation, HP, avoidance, defense, buffs have all been nerfed a lot. A single nerf of any one of these is aleady enough if you think guardians were overpowered. Now, add 5 major nerfs together, what would you get? The answer is quite simple, the worst tank you can think of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until this issue is resolved, I don't think everyone here will get a peaceful mind. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>    Yes, the revamp hasn't been kind to Guards in terms of overall power.  We've lost an immense ammount of absolute tanking ability and some, but not all of our relative tanking advantage over other fighters.  We've lost DPS.  We've lost a *huge* ammount of taunting ability.  (3 of 7 taunts from pre-revamp, just gone.)  We can buff about a third as much HP as we used to, and our defense buff, which was once the crown jewel of our skill-book, now functions more like a minor agility buff than anything else.  We've lost a lot of minor effects like stifle and our long-range pulling spell.  About the only thing the class has gained is some avoidance buffs we can cast on others, one with an aggro reduction component, and they *finally* made our protection spells function in a way that doesn't guarantee group suicide.<BR><BR>    That being said, it has been my experience that we still tank better than brawlers.  I've spent time grouping with bruiser guild-mates and letting them tank, or at times we'd alternate pulls and both tank so the DPS never got a rest.  Against a single target their taunt capability is very effective, but against groups we do hold aggro much more easily.  They do fine when tanking a small number of mobs, but when things get dicey we bear up under damage better, even when we have our avoidance and protection buffs on the bruiser.  It's no longer a night and day difference, but we definately still have our edge.   <BR><BR>    Yes, bruisers using the beta-buffed T6 fabled gear were able to achieve identical mitigation to guardians, on  beta.    (with a buff that has since been changed to have a duration of 3 minutes)  However, I have been told by a fairly reliable source that the beta-buffed LA used for those comparisons had aberrantly high mitigation values that are much higher than what we'll see on live T6 fabled.  I'll wait to see some T6 fabled LA to verify this, but I seriously doubt that SOE would allow the most offensive avoidance based tank to walk around with comparable mitigation to the most defensive mitigation based tank in the game.  <BR><BR>    I just can't figure out the changes to base health however.  It's a fairly minor ammount.  Certainly not enough to have any significant impact on brawlers' ability to tank.  As many others have stated, differences in gear and buffs tend to dominate.  I'm not the least bit concerned by it from a gameplay perspective.   Conceptually, it makes no sense for a class that specializes in nimbly dodging attacks to have more health than a class that specializes in standing there and getting hit.  In terms of the offense/defense hierarchy Moorgard posted early in the revamp process, it makes no sense for the most offensive tanks to have the most base health and least base power.  For the system to make logical sense on paper, warriors would have had the most HP/least power, brawlers the most power/least HP, and *crusaders* should have been the middle ground.  But, EQ2's combat system is already full of illogical inconsistencies, so I suppose wracking up yet another one is no big deal.<BR><BR>With the revamp, aggro management is finally a concern.  I freely admit that it was a tad unbalanced being able to taunt a mob off a wizard (before it even hit him) when he was *pulling* with Ice Comet.  The first couple days after the revamp were just pure frustration, not because I didn't know how to hold aggro, but because other classes didn't know how to avoid it, and they now actually have to do so.  (I know the no shared exp debt change is going to bork us tanks in the long run, but right now it's sort of humorous watching scouts and mages learn aggro-control the hard way. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)   We can't pull blue group mobs and solo them while AFK now either. (Doh!)  Oh well.  The game is still fun.  The best thing you can do is just forget about what we were pre-revamp.  That class is gone.  <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nice to get insight from one of the brighter spots of the guardian community.  All too often we see naught but the dregs over here.  Thank you for the informative post and highlighting your observations on the differences between warrior and brawler tanking.  As far as controlling aggro for groups of mobs, your additional buff add hate whenever you are hit, correct?  Ours adds hate to what we are currently hitting, so we can quickly build up a tremendous amount of aggro on one mob, while warriors can gain aggro on all mobs at once (if I am correct about how your hate buff functions).

[Fleaba]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR><BR>    I just can't figure out the changes to base health however.  </SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Just off the top of my head, I'd say that the health increase is so that we can take 2 hard hits and give a healer the time to do something about it. I remember pre combat revamp, 2 hard hits would dang near kill me if I didn't have a bunch of uber buffs on me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is what I mean. </DIV> <DIV>NO math, parses or anything to prove it...just a suspicion. Here is my take on what I think SOE was aiming at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=6>Made up numbers. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>Guardian: 3k health</DIV> <DIV>Monk: 4k health</DIV> <DIV>MOB does 2k crushing damage on both.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk and guardian both mitigate said attack.</DIV> <DIV>Guardian and Monk both end up with approximatly 1/2 health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mob does 2k more crushing damage on both.</DIV> <DIV>Monk and guardian both mitigate said attack.</DIV> <DIV>Gaurdian and Monk both die a painful, horrible death at the same time.</DIV> <DIV>Remaining living group members run away screaming like little girls. LOL</DIV>

[Drow_Raid]

<P>Quick side-track; when Bladewind says "right now it's sort of humorous watching scouts and mages learn aggro-control the hard way. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0>", I keep picturing an evil scientist saying "GOOD little guinea pigs.. TEST yourselves... yeeeessss....!! </P> <P>/cheers to the thoughtful tank! May the group xp-debt never return!! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>.</P>

[Owa]

<P>Reading Mr Boot's rantings, I'm reminded of when Berserkers were nerfed. Then Monks. Then Pallies. </P> <P>After doing a fair bit of whining myself over these issues I've finally come to the conclusion that:</P> <P> a) Being able to never lose aggro (Zerker mark 1), never get hit ever (Monk mark 1) or never get hurt (Guardian mark 1,2 & 3)* does not make you a good tank. It makes you a horrible player who relies on crappy code rather than skill. Just like when Brawler tanking required <EM>always</EM> keeping on top of your facing and buffs and taunts or never being asked to MT again - separating the men from the boys, so to speak - now well-played Guardians will be great tanks, and crappy Guardians will be crappy ones. These are not so much nerfs as limiting people from tanking without effort. Try to see these changes as a challenge rather than an insurmountable obstacle to success.</P> <P>b) If you don't like your class, it's kinda tough [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e, friend. Learn to deal with it or roll another. I did - three times now - and I'm afraid it's more rewarding than hoping SoE will give you your old toys back. They don't like to do that.</P> <P>c) Asking for other clases to be nerfed does not endear you to anyone, neither those who play it nor those who design it. This is especially relevant now there is PvP...</P> <P> </P> <P>* 'a)' is exaggerated but you take my point.</P>

[Xendo]

<DIV>I love this gotta throw in my 2cps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks aren't gonna be stepping on Guardinas toes too much on the stuff that really matters (epic mobs) ya know those nasty 3up guys that drop the stuff everyone wants.  Mitigation is more valueable the more up arrows the mob has.  Avoidance is based more on the color of the mob then the rank of it (and before ya shoot that down said epic mob has a "bonus to hit" factor anyways)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all seriousness I'm seeing Monks falling into the large encounter niche where there are multiples of 2up/1ups/no arrows in a quantity that could label it epic.  For one we have the unique ability now to parry from all directions.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for why they are highest HP ummm I woulda thought someone who spends their life honeing their body into a weapon would be a healthy person if only slightly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Vorham]

<DIV>well i have yet to see a plate type like a guard or zerk in exp group with less hp, they usually seem to have a few hundred more and my gear is heavy on HP and sta... the hp gap is just smaller now, no longer are the brawlers 1k+ hp behind</DIV>

[JBo]

<P>Most plate tanks maximize their HP, while most monks/bruisers concentrate on STR/AGI for avoidance and DPS. So you can't just compare the HP while the stats are totally different.</P> <P>I think this game is totally messed up, since Moorgard insists on all fighters having same tank abilities.</P> <P>From my opinion, on the day that you have chosen the brawler path and lost the ability to wear heavy armor, you were already determined to go the DPS way. Don't tell me you chose the brawler path to be raid tanks. You all knew that. Since you have chosen it this way, and then you ask to have same tank abilities as plate tanks, it is just ridiculous.</P> <P>SOE needs to clarify that each archetype do have different roles in groups. There are DPS classes in every archetype. Just like monk is the DPS fighter, fury is the healer with DPS, and warlock is the mage with most DPS. There is nothing wrong with this. But you can't just ask to be equal in other areas while you have the advantages in DPS department.</P> <P> </P>

[x0rtrun]

So what exactly do you want from the monk community? An appology? Well I'm very sorry you don't know how to play your class, and that you can't move on and accept the changes. I'm sorry you can't be happy. Really. I feel deeply sorry for you. <span>:smileyindifferent: Here's an idea! Since you think monks are so ubar now, why not reroll as one? </span><div></div>

[JBo]

<P>x0rtrunks wrote:</P> <P>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>So what exactly do you want from the monk community? An appology? Well I'm very sorry you don't know how to play your class, and that you can't move on and accept the changes. I'm sorry you can't be happy. Really. I feel deeply sorry for you. <SPAN><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif" width=16 border=0><BR><BR>Here's an idea! Since you think monks are so ubar now, why not reroll as one?<BR></SPAN><SPAN>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P></SPAN> <DIV>Please don't assume other players can't play as good as you. You have no idea how other players are doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The current combat revamp mostly was to cater the whiners before the revamp, and most of them were monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My opinion is simple, there is no way to keep DPS and tank as good as other plate tank classes. If you insisit on this, the game will just be screwed up for everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bonesbro]

<P>There is more to group utility than DPS and "tanking".  And "tanking" is a broad spectrum: Monks and Guardians shine brightly in different bands.  For instance, we have a pretty easy time holding agro on a single target that isn't too high for us to hit well, because our specialty taunt (Dragon Advance) procs when we hit the mob.  In single-mob combat, we're hitting the mob much more often than he's hitting us.  However, against multiple mobs, we're taking almost zero swings at the other mobs, so our specialty taunt is building very little agro on them.  </P> <P>The Guardian specialty taunt procs hate on the mob when they hit you.  Against a single mob, this reactive proc will be going off less than our active proc (although the mob should be hitting you more than he would hit a monk!) so a Guardian will have to work harder to hold agro.  On the other hand, in a multi-mob fight, your specialty taunt will be spraying agro all over the group.  You've also got other reactives (a snare, I think?) that further build hate when you're hit.  That makes you way better at holding agro against multiple mobs.</P> <P>So, we have to work harder on multi-mob fights, and you might have to work harder on single-mob fights.  That seems reasonably balanced, while keeping things flavored a bit differently.</P> <P>Finally, both classes have the same number of skills.  We have more skills that say "do 200 damage to the bad guy."  You've got skills that do other things.  Are you saying that your skills aren't as useful?</P>

[Kota]

<span><blockquote><hr>JBoot wrote:<p>Most plate tanks maximize their HP, while most monks/bruisers concentrate on STR/AGI for avoidance and DPS. So you can't just compare the HP while the stats are totally different.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>i went sta/hp, and plate classes still buff out above me.  i'm up on a few crusaders that added some wis or whatever, but in general, a self buffed plate tank still has more hp than i do. <span><blockquote><hr>JBoot wrote: <p>I think this game is totally messed up, since Moorgard insists on all fighters having same tank abilities.</p> <p>From my opinion, on the day that you have chosen the brawler path and lost the ability to wear heavy armor, you were already determined to go the DPS way. Don't tell me you chose the brawler path to be raid tanks. You all knew that. Since you have chosen it this way, and then you ask to have same tank abilities as plate tanks, it is just ridiculous.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>plz don't go there.  if that poor horse was only alive to see what's been done to his corpse...<span>:smileysad:</span></span></span><div></div>

[Vorham]

<P>yeah, plate types are making a big deal about the HP boost we got and 90% of 'em i see in game still have hundreds more HP than the supposed "highest hp pool" brawlers... go figure.  I don't really care... just get annoyed by dweebs saying they have less HP and calling for brawler blood to be spilled, when in game it isn't true.</P> <P>You can tell by the amount of "OMG brawlers have more HP than us! They are better tanks! Blah bla blah!" type freakouts on the boards that most of the people complaining haven't actually seen how it works in game.  Our boy Jboot is chief among them with his numerous "Mages/Monks/Scouts class tank better than us!" threads... our guild Guardians are still our tanks on epics, they still get groups, they still have more HP, they still tank better than brawlers against the big boy epics.  I'm failing to see the problem... but I am getting tired of the "nerf brawlers" sentiment now that we might actually be able to tank an epicx2 w/o getting 1 shotted.</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bonesbro wrote:<BR> <P>The Guardian specialty taunt procs hate on the mob when they hit you.  Against a single mob, this reactive proc will be going off less than our active proc (although the mob should be hitting you more than he would hit a monk!) so a Guardian will have to work harder to hold agro.  On the other hand, in a multi-mob fight, your specialty taunt will be spraying agro all over the group.  You've also got other reactives (a snare, I think?) that further build hate when you're hit.  That makes you way better at holding agro against multiple mobs.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh I'd argue that we are not better at holding aggro against multiple mobs.  To keep aggro I have to spam all of my taunts and root myself with HTL.  I'm not saying monks are in any better position though.  Multiple mob aggro has been a nightmare so far, especially add mobs.<BR></P> <P>Just a thought I had about this.  A Guardian's HTL taunt is great when the mob is orange, even red.  As the mob con starts to go down, the effectiveness of HTL goes down.  The key is that it only procs when we are hit.  If a mob isn't hitting the Guardian as much, then the Guardian is not getting the hate he needs to keep aggro.   And a bad thing is that we have to root ourselves to keep aggro, does the monks abilitity do the same?</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However a monk's hate generation is from his attacks.   I assume your ability is similar to ours in that you must do damage to gain hate.  <STRONG>If I have that wrong, please let me know.</STRONG>  It almost appears that you have the opposite problem that us guardians have.  Because you hit the higher level mobs less you generate less hate.  So your ability is less effective against higher con mobs, but more effective against lower con mobs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vorham wrote:<BR> <P>yeah, plate types are making a big deal about the HP boost we got and 90% of 'em i see in game still have hundreds more HP than the supposed "highest hp pool" brawlers... go figure.  I don't really care... just get annoyed by dweebs saying they have less HP and calling for brawler blood to be spilled, when in game it isn't true.</P> <P>You can tell by the amount of "OMG brawlers have more HP than us! They are better tanks! Blah bla blah!" type freakouts on the boards that most of the people complaining haven't actually seen how it works in game.  Our boy Jboot is chief among them with his numerous "Mages/Monks/Scouts class tank better than us!" threads... our guild Guardians are still our tanks on epics, they still get groups, they still have more HP, they still tank better than brawlers against the big boy epics.  I'm failing to see the problem... but I am getting tired of the "nerf brawlers" sentiment now that we might actually be able to tank an epicx2 w/o getting 1 shotted.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL Way to generalize us plate tanks.  </P> <P>Nerf the Brawlers!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kota]

<span><blockquote><hr>Raahl wrote: <blockquote> <hr>Just a thought I had about this.  A Guardian's HTL taunt is great when the mob is orange, even red.  As the mob con starts to go down, the effectiveness of HTL goes down.  The key is that it only procs when we are hit.  If a mob isn't hitting the Guardian as much, then the Guardian is not getting the hate he needs to keep aggro.   And a bad thing is that we have to root ourselves to keep aggro, does the monks abilitity do the same?</blockquote> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>no, our ability let's us move freely.  our ac buffs root us tho.  we have 2 ac buffs to click.  the lesser one just roots us.  the better one roots and stuns us.  as in, no auto-atk or ca's.</span><div></div>

[pootski]

Does anyone know if tuved2 and jboot are the same person? <div></div>

[Sbazt]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sbaztik wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>JBoot wrote:<p>Yes, you monks can laugh out loudly at this time.</p> <p>But beware of the coming nerf bats. Don't cry when it comes, as it will hit you next time.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>JBoot, the only thing your one man crusade against brawlers is doing is.... making you look like a fool. instead of calling for nerfs like a baby, go to the guardian forums and start a constructive thread about the actuall problems guardians are having and some possible solutions.  it is much more likely to be listened to than the sillyness your spewing up here.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> just restating the obvious</span><div></div>

[lerwill]

All i can say about whiny gaurdians is WHAH!!!!!!!!  Give me a break, youve been over qualified to tank for too long, quick thinking of monks as the same type as EQ1 and adjust to the fact that monks are tanks as well. Our dps is what makes up for our weaker taunts, and yeah we need more hp because when we do get hit, it hurts like hell. get over it.

[JonMichael Gardn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P><SPAN></P></SPAN>Please don't assume other players can't play as good as you. You have no idea how other players are doing. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The current combat revamp mostly was to cater the whiners before the revamp, and most of them were monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My opinion is simple, there is no way to keep DPS and tank as good as other plate tank classes. If you insisit on this, the game will just be screwed up for everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>Don't assume Monks need nerfed because you feel Guardians were.  If you have a problem with your class, the solution is to post in the GUARDIAN forum what your concerns are and hopefully they'll be addressed.  Or better yet, read the Guardian forum, talk to fellow Guardians and maybe you'll get some tips and hints on how to play your class better. </P> <P>Going from forum to forum crying nerf on classes that you feel perform better than yours only makes you look bad.  Instead of crying nerf on classes that you feel outperform yours, you should be making suggestions to the developers on how to better YOUR class.   If you feel the Monk class was whining before the revamp, are you hoping that you will perform better after the next revamp by whining now? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Delante La'Salle- 47 Monk, Innothule</P> <P>JonMichael Gardner- 50 Warden, Innothule</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Koro]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <P>Most plate tanks maximize their HP, while most monks/bruisers concentrate on STR/AGI for avoidance and DPS. So you can't just compare the HP while the stats are totally different.</P> <P>I think this game is totally messed up, since Moorgard insists on all fighters having same tank abilities.</P> <P>From my opinion, on the day that you have chosen the brawler path and lost the ability to wear heavy armor, you were already determined to go the DPS way. Don't tell me you chose the brawler path to be raid tanks. You all knew that. Since you have chosen it this way, and then you ask to have same tank abilities as plate tanks, it is just ridiculous.</P> <P>SOE needs to clarify that each archetype do have different roles in groups. There are DPS classes in every archetype. Just like monk is the DPS fighter, fury is the healer with DPS, and warlock is the mage with most DPS. There is nothing wrong with this. But you can't just ask to be equal in other areas while you have the advantages in DPS department.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>ok...i kind of agree with you here. but here's my take on it and this goes way back to when the game launched.</P> <P>my first char was a zerker. i chose it because i wanted a plate wearing character that could have some offense. i viewed guardians as the best tanks to take because that's what they were described as. pallys/sk's to me were just a more combat oriented healer type that could tank if needed to. and the monks/bruisers were the dps part of the fighters and they could still tank.</P> <P>now i've rolled a froglok monk and i'm having a lot more fun with it than i did with a zerker. i can tank for my buddies if need be but i prefer dps in a group. i never once claimed nor do i feel the need to be top choice for tanking a raid mob. that's just plain suicide if ya ask me. i don't have the sturdy piece of metal to take lessen the blows.</P> <P>so my hp being the highest of all the fighter groups makes sense to me, a brawler trains their body to withstand punishment so our hp should be higher because we don't wear the heavy armor.  we rely on speed to avoid most of the blows that the plate wearers get. if i get hit, i expect to get hit hard because of my flimsy protection.</P> <P>conversely, you plate tanks should never have been able to get an avoidance up past 50%. plate is heavy. knights in the middle ages needed help getting up onto a horse. there should be no way you avoid a majority of your hits.  you should get hit more often BUT you should take less damage per hit because you're wearing plate.</P> <P>now, we're all in the fighter class. we should all be able to tank solo/heroic mobs fairly well. but when comes down to raid mobs plate tanks should be the ones up front. brawlers should have a chance at tanking but i'd expect to die in under 5 hits.  </P> <P>i agree with another poster who said plate tanks should be about 60% mit/30% avoidance while the brawlers were 30% mit/60% avoidance. </P> <P> </P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>However a monk's hate generation is from his attacks.   I assume your ability is similar to ours in that you must do damage to gain hate.  <STRONG>If I have that wrong, please let me know.</STRONG>  It almost appears that you have the opposite problem that us guardians have.  Because you hit the higher level mobs less you generate less hate.  So your ability is less effective against higher con mobs, but more effective against lower con mobs. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly, yet another way we are different and have our own seperate advantages.<BR>

[bonesbro]

<span><blockquote><hr>Raahl wrote: <blockquote> <hr> bonesbro wrote: <p>The Guardian specialty taunt procs hate on the mob when they hit you.  Against a single mob, this reactive proc will be going off less than our active proc (although the mob should be hitting you more than he would hit a monk!) so a Guardian will have to work harder to hold agro.  On the other hand, in a multi-mob fight, your specialty taunt will be spraying agro all over the group.  You've also got other reactives (a snare, I think?) that further build hate when you're hit.  That makes you way better at holding agro against multiple mobs.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Oh I'd argue that we are not better at holding aggro against multiple mobs.  <i>To keep aggro I have to spam all of my taunts and root myself with HTL.  I'm not saying monks are in any better position though.</i>  Multiple mob aggro has been a nightmare so far, especially add mobs.</p> <p>Just a thought I had about this.  A Guardian's HTL taunt is great when the mob is orange, even red.  As the mob con starts to go down, the effectiveness of HTL goes down.  The key is that it only procs when we are hit.  If a mob isn't hitting the Guardian as much, then the Guardian is not getting the hate he needs to keep aggro.   And a bad thing is that we have to root ourselves to keep aggro, does the monks abilitity do the same?</p> <div> </div> <div>However a monk's hate generation is from his attacks.   I assume your ability is similar to ours in that you must do damage to gain hate.  <strong>If I have that wrong, please let me know.</strong>  It almost appears that you have the opposite problem that us guardians have.  Because you hit the higher level mobs less you generate less hate.  So your ability is less effective against higher con mobs, but more effective against lower con mobs.  </div> <div>   </div><hr></blockquote> </span><span>Single mobs stayed glued to us.  I have mostly been grouping with fighters and scouts, but I've almost never lost agro against an individual mob.  Multiple-mob fights are hard.  I've been fighting the first mob down to a bit under half then switching targets for the rest of the fight.  But in big group pulls, like with a swarm of v or vv mobs, many of them are going to start peeling near the end of the fight, and there's just nothing I can do about it.  We're in the same boat as you when trying to hold multi-mob agro, except we don't have your reactive hate proc or HTL.  Fortunately, they're weak and little so the cleric can tank them just fine. Adds are bad, though.  I'm spoiled because I'm almost always grouped with a really good enchanter.  Sometimes I deliberately get adds to make him mez. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If we don't have a mezzer, I'll yell at the group to stay on the main target while I swap to taunt.  That's worked ok so far. AE does so much damage nowadays that you actually <b>increase</b> your group's kill speed if you swap targets around to let AEs finish wounded mobs.  The cost is that your group will take more damage per second until the mobs start dying.  It keeps things interesting!</span> <div></div>