New trainings (again). /sigh No stances now. Teh sux.

[Gaige]

<DIV>Here you go:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lvl 14:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/4786/14training6ap.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lvl 24:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/2591/24training0aw.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lvl 34:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/5642/34training7xs.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lvl 44:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/4651/44training7kv.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Couple things.  NO stances at all.  I know why they are doing this, but I do not agree.  The master II stances were a good way to actually customize your character that made a difference.  If you wanted to tank, you chose the def master II stance.  If you wanted to be more damage oriented, you chose the off stance master II.  Now the choices are just blah.  Nothing you choose will really make you different at all.  Its fluff.  Its disappoints me honestly. Why would I, as a monk, train my rear off, decide to master a spell, and then have that spell be something that's meaningless?  I wouldn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next.  If you do not have Quiet Purity adept 3, save the ruby.  Wisdom of Zephyl master II is the EXACT same haste %.  Similiarly, if you do not have Everburning Fire adept 3, save the ruby.  Everburning Flame master II is the EXACT same haste %.  So consider that two adept 3s for free, that take less power/health to cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point I don't care about trainings anymore.  They ruined STA, they ruined AGI, and they ruined STR.  The hp/pwr pool and resistance traits are so tiny its hard to even notice.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It takes a TON of a stat to make a noticeable difference in something like avoidance, the melee damage bonus or HP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So really anymore traits don't matter, they are fluff.  But hey, at least you can't choose wrong.  I doubt we'll hear many cries for /respec's with what they've done to the trait choice.  Maybe that's their intention.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: As for the 54 choice, I'll show you closer to the end of beta.  My 60 has master II off stance and he's keeping it till beta ends.  Might as well use it while I can.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 PM</span>

[bonesbro]

Thanks. By the way, I was looking for updated pics of the 37-50 spells and couldn't find anything.  Would you mind grabbing screenshots? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And finally, someone was looking for Tranquil Blessing - what did that turn into? <div></div>

[Nemi]

<DIV>Truly truly sucks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The training choices are utterly pointless now /sigh. If anything all this does is move tankability to the High End Raider Monks who can get the Master version of the spell, unfortunately that Monk is unlikely ever to use it as his guild's guardian will be tanking.</DIV>

[PsyKr]

<DIV>as much as I miss being dps, im lookin forward to being able to tank raid mobs..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How come Paladins still have their stances able to get upgraded to master II yet monks get theirs taken away???</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PsyKrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>as much as I miss being dps, im lookin forward to being able to tank raid mobs..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How come Paladins still have their stances able to get upgraded to master II yet monks get theirs taken away??? <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All fighters/scouts got their training stances taken away:</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** Combat Changes ***<BR><BR></FONT></STRONG>- All PC and NPC fighter auto-attack damage has been increased 10%.<BR>- Heroic creatures will now do more auto-attack and spell and combat art damage.<BR>- Beneficial maintained spells will now require you to be grouped with your target while maintaining the spell.<BR>- Root spells have been adjusted. If your class has a root spell, please examine it for its updated functionality.<BR>- Taunts should now be resisted less often.<BR>- DoT damage has been adjusted. Most damage-over-time spells were doing slightly more damage than they should have been.<BR>- Stances have been removed from fighter and scout Training selections.</P> <P>Legond, I'll grab those shots for you tomorrow before I go to work.  I'm gonna crash atm.  Oh, and Tranquil Blessing is now a defensive stance of that tier, but I'll grab a shot of it too.<BR><BR></P>

[SniperKitty]

That just freaking sucks. <div></div>

[Lebr]

<P>Dam this is sad  </P> <P>Thought we were gonna have a way to lean towards DPS if we wanted.  We should of never heard about Master2 stances how long has SoE been testing this expansion.  Im starting to think this isnt a game for me.</P> <p>Message Edited by Lebru1 on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

[Cwi]

This [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing sucks. <div></div>

[Nefari]

Stealin your info Gaige, but I thought something needed to be posted about this in the DoF room.  This is a major, major step backwards for all the Tank classes, let's hope we can get some attention. Nef <div></div>

[WhiteLig]

This is, by far, the most infuriating thing they have decided to do since I started playing my monk.  They should have left the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] NDA up till DOF came out because trashing one of the two monk changes I am actually looking forward to has pretty much spoiled anything else that could come out of all this for me.  Its upsetting enough that they kill our dps, its even worse that they give us promising stat changes then take em away, I dont like losing all the trainings I already had as some were quite useful, and now, on top of all of that, they are taking away the master 2 stances.  I know this is Sony's game and things are their call, but I wish they would open their eyes and think about how many people they are screwing over in the name of balance.  <div></div>

[Jobeson]

Its a sad day when I agree with Gaige but You should have your stances to upgrade to choose to upgrade.  <div></div>

[Lareal]

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. As much as I disagreed with Gaige about the Raid tank thing, I thought there was a light at the end of the tunnel with the stances. Gaige is right, this would have allowed us to customize(at least a little) our monks. Thanks SOE!!! For completely smashing hundreds of Monks(Not to mention other fighters) hopes for something good out of the revamp. <div></div>

[Bladewind]

<DIV>Utterly craptastic, this decision is.</DIV>

[Tweak]

Yeah, those choices are lame. The main reason my account is currently inactive is because I felt no way to make my avatar unique in appearance or ability. I was hoping that the expansion would change this, but it looks like I'll probably have to reserve those hopes for expansion #2.Saying "I'm a level 50 female dark elf monk" should not immediately tell people exactly what I look like and what skills I have. That's not character custimzation - it's cloning.

[Kota]

i concur.  i was looking forward to stances.  i'm sure the devs are having a nightmare of a time trying to ballance all of this tho.  /shrug <div></div>

[Ribbitz]

<DIV>That sucks pretty bad. Terrible news. I was looking forward to the uniqueness having one of those stances would bring. Were all watered down again, save for the few that luck out with the fabled masters.</DIV>

[Almeric_CoS]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV align=left>The master II stances were a good way to actually customize your character that made a difference.  If you wanted to tank, you chose the def master II stance.  If you wanted to be more damage oriented, you chose the off stance master II. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah, but I assume the reason they dropped the stances as training was because of exactly that.  Why choose anything else?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taking the taunt masters would still help with tanking...</DIV>

[Jobeson]

<div></div>exactly but choosing a dps stance or a defencive stance would be the best  hell there should only be those two choices.  They are just fluff right now.  no real upgrades.  Id just choose whatever skill they added in and save a ruby that way lol.  not gona upgrade from masters to master 2s <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jobeson on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Reposa]

It does suck, but the problem was that the level 44 training had our Defensive Stance and the level 54 had our Offensive.  So we could have had both stances at Master II.. Both were an obvious choice over the other trainings, so really, it wasn't much customization at all anyway. I haven't seen the level 54 trainings, but I would have liked to see abilities other than just damage spells.  Taunts, Buffs, our Heal, our Ward, FD and other non-damage abilities, at least would have given us a better chance to customize our toons.  Where one Monk might have chose Everburning Fire Master II another may have chosen a Taunt or maybe a level 50+ group haste buff. Again, not going to stress just yet, things could change at anytime, and I still don't know our level 54 choices (htfu with them Gage). <div></div>

[stfields]

<HR> It does suck, but the problem was that the level 44 training had our Defensive Stance and the level 54 had our Offensive.  So we could have had both stances at Master II.. Both were an obvious choice over the other trainings, so really, it wasn't much customization at all anyway.<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if they changed it somehow that we only got to pick either our best defensive stance Master II or our best offensive stance Master II... it won't make a lick of difference if we have the ability to make it Master III.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's not forget that we can't control which Master Is drop.  So, we've been limited to Adept III in many of our abilities.  That's not to say Monk Masters don't drop, but the bottom line is that if you get your hands on... Storming Hydra Master I, that's all you get.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Runes will drop from epic mobs that let us upgrade anything we choose to Master III.  And won't it feel even more sweet to upgrade your Halcyon Blessing or Coiling Serpent to Master III from Adept III?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just trying to find the positive here... not much, but meh.  </DIV>

[NamaeZero]

<P>What we need is specialized 'Martial Training' for classes that get Stances. Every 14 levels(enough time for use to get a set of all new stances), we  get an extra Training selection, but only 3 options: Upgrade Offensive Stance, Mixed, or Defensive Stance. </P> <P> </P> <P>Or maybe just have us select just the word options, and make it so all the stances of that line, of any level, are Master II's. That way people can't cheat and have a different Tiers of each kind of Stance.</P>

[Ethelwo]

I think the change was nessary myself. If defence stances were allowed to become master 2 then all mobs would have to be adjusted and tweeked to be able to whoop your butt even with this master 2 stance on. leaving these stance at adept 3 means that mobs will not have to be adjusted upward beyond that point. Ubber stances equals ubber mobs and all though that may not be a problem for fighter classes it does become one for other classes and soloing.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stfields wrote:<BR> <DIV>Even if they changed it somehow that we only got to pick either our best defensive stance Master II or our best offensive stance Master II... it won't make a lick of difference if we have the ability to make it Master III.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's not forget that we can't control which Master Is drop.  So, we've been limited to Adept III in many of our abilities.  That's not to say Monk Masters don't drop, but the bottom line is that if you get your hands on... Storming Hydra Master I, that's all you get.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Runes will drop from epic mobs that let us upgrade anything we choose to Master III.  And won't it feel even more sweet to upgrade your Halcyon Blessing or Coiling Serpent to Master III from Adept III?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just trying to find the positive here... not much, but meh.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>The problem is, at least on live, that the runes required for Master IIIs will be ridiculously rare.  Plus, every class can/will want to use them to get their Master IIIs.  I just have to assume that healers come first, then buffers, then yadda yadda.  At least in FoH it'll probably be awhile before I win a Master III rune.<BR>

[JudyJudy]

<DIV><EM>It should be interesting to see how things play out.  I myself am eager for the combat revamp to be done and over with.  That way there will be no more guessing and we can begin to build (or re-build) the way we play our monks.  Let's face it - we all chose the monk because we LIKE it, we LIKE the challenge or we LIKE look and feel of our toon.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Change is inevitable - It's how we respond to change that will really matter.  I can't say whether it will be good or bad, considering my experience and level, but I can say monks are unique and will always be.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>It's up to us to make sure they are.</EM></DIV>

[bonesbro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gaige wrote:</P> <P>The problem is, at least on live, that the runes required for Master IIIs will be ridiculously rare.  Plus, every class can/will want to use them to get their Master IIIs.  I just have to assume that healers come first, then buffers, then yadda yadda.  At least in FoH it'll probably be awhile before I win a Master III rune.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Really?  IMO, the very first Master 3s for a guild should be used to upgrade the tank's defensive stance.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> bonesbro wrote: <DIV>Really?  IMO, the very first Master 3s for a guild should be used to upgrade the tank's defensive stance. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm, I suppose.  But I was thinking of how adept 3s played out, but again on live upgrading stances = pointless.  So you may be right.  I do know that heals and buffs will be way up on the list though.<BR>

[kerra]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#ffffff>Wow, all I can say is wow, at the very least they could let us have the stances for as long as the guardians have been UBER TANK then nerf us again as they love to do. I almost wish they never lifted the NDA because at the very least then we would have no cause to be disappointed. This is getting old and I am so tired of saying “it’s so obvious that SOE have to see this class is broken and needs to be fixed”. I have always tried to remain on the positive end of all aspects but this is, well, just as you said Gaige “teh sux”. I am not</FONT> </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>screaming “ok that’s it I am done” but for the love of Pete cut the monks some slack. </FONT></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by kerra on <span class=date_text>09-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:39 PM</span>

[Isa]

<DIV>I am also completely dissapointed by this.  When I first saw the M2 training choices I had alot of hope.  It was the one thing I had seen from the revamp that had me confident, and now that confidence is dashed yet again.</DIV>

[Krozl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's not forget that we can't control which Master Is drop.  So, we've been limited to Adept III in many of our abilities.  That's not to say Monk Masters don't drop, but the bottom line is that if you get your hands on... Storming Hydra Master I, that's all you get.   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have to disagree with you, I am not in an uber guild my any means but I have several Master I's 42FD, Hydra, Silent Fist, Agitate Spirit, ...couple of others. Perhaps I am just lucky.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Krozlan on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[Geothe]

<P>Yeah, I agree that it sucks that they dont have any stances for training options anymore.</P> <P>However, how it was, not all Fighters had stances among their list of trainings.  It has to be an all or nothing thing there, otherwise it would be imbalancing.</P>

[Lunah]

So with this list is there an obvious better choice at each level? I saw Gaige say wisdom of zephryl and everburning flame for 24 and 34. Anyone else have any opinions on maybe 44 or 14?

[Arrowheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lunah wrote:<BR>So with this list is there an obvious better choice at each level? I saw Gaige say wisdom of zephryl and everburning flame for 24 and 34. Anyone else have any opinions on maybe 44 or 14? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>At 44 I am probably going to pick Dragon Advance. For tanking we will need all the extra taunt ability we can get. Icy Talon would be a decent choice I think but still think the extra taunting is best option (imo).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Level 54 Options:</P> <UL> <LI>Agitate Spirit</LI> <LI>Calm Tranquility</LI> <LI>Swooping Crane</LI> <LI>Inner Calm</LI></UL> <P>Here choices are a little tougher, Swooping Crane is an upgrade to Biting Mantis and has a nice stun/knockback effect to it, and Inner Calm is our str/wis buff and Calm Tranquility is our group haste buff and Agitate Spirit is our encounter aoe taunt. I think any choice in this range would be safe / good except possibly Inner Calm till they decide how str tweaking is going to end up. I'lll probably use a ruby to upgrade agitate spirit to adept 3 and take either Swooping Crane or Calm Tranquility.</P>

[ToxicMan]

At lvl 14 which Specialized Traning is the "best" or what is the most common to choose?<div></div>

[x0rtrun]

This is a pretty old thread toxicman, from around the LU13 combat update.You should check the stickies at the top of the board for reference to answer your question.<div></div>