New monk trainings, aka Master II spells...

[Gaige]

<DIV>Well, as you guys are probably aware now instead of the training spells every 10 levels you get a list of 4 spells to choose from to make master II.  At 50 these 4 spells are: Everburning Fire, Spider Stance, Winding Dragon and Halycon Blessing.  At 60 these 4 spells are: Frozen Palm, Coiling Serpent (defensive stance), Infuriating Tranquility (single target taunt), and Will of the Sky (our state cure).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I have adept 3 of all of them except for Halycon Blessing since it currently isn't in the game.  So what I decided to do was get the master II of Halycon Blessing and see how it compares to the adept 3 of the others.  I did this on my newest lvl 50 copy.  Now, on my lvl 60 I chose to Master II both of my defensive stances (Winding Dragon and Coiling Serpent).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, on to the pics:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Halycon Blessing Master II:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/3370/master2stance8eb.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Halycon Blessing Apprentice I (for comparison and scaling):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/9695/offstanceapp11du.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you can see here that the Master II free upgrade version is roughly twice as good offensively as the Apprentice 1 spell, while still costing the same defensive penalty.  Very nice imho.  Something to keep in mind for you monks out there who are going to try to be as much DPS as possible after the changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now onto the Master II Winding Dragon and upgrade to it, Coiling Serpent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/2401/defesnivestances9jv.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The lvl 60 defensive stance Master II is even a nice upgrade over the lvl 50 defensive stance Master II.  All in all very nice stance upgrades imho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a screenie of Spider Stance, Everburning Fire and Winding Dragon Adept III for comparison:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/5127/adept3stances0rt.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The free Master II Winding Dragon is a pretty decent upgrade over the adept III Winding Dragon imho.  I don't have enough characters on beta currently to be able to screenshot pics of the Everburning Fire Master II and the Spider Stance Master II so I leave that to some other beta monks.  Or to MG, if no one feels the need to select those two arts.  I'm not sure if there are any other lvl 60 monks on beta, so those arts may just have to be discovered in time, or once again uncovered by MG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, for my opinion on these changes to our training spells.  I FREAKING LOVE IT.  Its about time that all of our leveling was rewarded with something decent, and in my opinion, a master II spell of an existing art is a great reward.  It allows us to truly customize our characters (especially with the stances) and give them some significant personal flavor.  I feel that the lvl 50 choices of the three stances and the self haste spell are excellent, as it further pushes the stances into some good actual meaning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the lvl 10, 20, 30 and 40 options... for some reason they weren't available to me on the beta.  My lvl 50 copy only got the lvl 50 choice, and my lvl 60 copy only received the lvl 50 and 60 choices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's all for now, just wanted to give as much of a heads up as I could about the Master IIs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Later.</DIV>

[Siberia2]

<div></div>Very, very nice, finally some +mitigation buffs, and great idea with the ability to make existing arts Master II. Btw, do the Haste effects from Halcyon and Everburning fire stack, or do they fall into the no stacking along with the item beta change? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Siberia275 on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 AM</span>

[Winn]

<DIV>Good information!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let me just re-iterate for those slightly confused.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the training skills, Lu Sun's etc etc.. So Li's etc etc, have been removed entired. Yup completely gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, every 10 levels, you pick 4 spells from the tier just under you to turn into Master II.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmm... the stance increase does look very tempting.</DIV>

[Petit]

<div></div>And please, can any higher level monk elaborate some choices all along the path of the monk (10, 20, 30, 40, 50) lets say for a more damage dealer monk and for a tank type monk ? thank you Seito Seikuno [32] on Storm server EDIT : at this time I took at 20 a better Feign death, which is still MUCH better than the one I received at  around 28. It feigns against  lvl 36 instead of  lvl 31 mobs ... <div></div><p>Message Edited by Petitlu on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:12 AM</span>

[Xxooo-Coav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Siberia275 wrote:<BR> Very, very nice, finally some +mitigation buffs, and great idea with the ability to make existing arts Master II. <BR><BR><STRONG>Btw, do the Haste effects from Halcyon and Everburning fire stack, or do they fall into the no stacking along with the item beta change?<BR></STRONG> <P>Message Edited by Siberia275 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thats a very good question.... I am interesting knowing this too  = )</DIV>

[KeenaMoonphy]

<P>I love this change!! </P> <P>Thank you Gaige! </P>

[Grabaan]

Woot for Master II defensive stances! <div></div>

[Cwi]

Thanks for the ss's Gaige. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Although I'm not sure if I agree that turning an existing CA into a Master II is indeed better than getting an altered version of an existing CA at Master II level. This way we definitely know what to expect of the CA since its something we already have, where as the old way you had to ask around to know what was different with the altered version. With the old training options you had the opportunity to get something special such as an extra stifle CA or a more effective taunts. I was looking forward to picking training choices differently with the respec (such as choosing the 20 second taunt) but I'll get over it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'd be really interested in comparing the Master I to the Master II versions of all these CAs to check just how much of an upgrade the Master II level is. <div></div>

[zabor]

can't you just roll another monk and warp him to lvl 50 for the other lvl 50 master2 spells?

[Nerill]

<P>( Sorry, No Picture )</P> <P>I upgraded a different ability than Gage so we could see another one.</P> <P><U><FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>Everburning Fire ( Master II )</FONT></U></P> <P>Increase Attack Speed by <STRONG>37%</STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P>By comparison my <FONT color=#ff0000>Adept III</FONT> of this ability increased it by <STRONG>30%</STRONG></P>

[stfields]

<DIV>When you choose these "Master II" abilities, is it similar to how we chose our other training choices?  We get the flashing/glowing + sign on the screen that relentlessly reminds us to pick our upgrade?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE may have fixed it since, but I remember it was very buggy to leave those + signs there (sometimes you wouldn't receive quest rewards/updates/coin/exp).  I always find it wise to prepare yourself for the next level cap.  While an extra 7% haste might be a big deal offensively leveling from 50-60, you might not want that 7% haste in raid situations if monks will have a niche tanking raid mobs (hey, it could happen!).  You might want that Coiling Serpent Master II (or whatever).  </DIV>

[lerwill]

<P>This frustrates me only in the fact that my Master 1 Everburning Fire currently is 48% haste...so it drops 11% for the Master 2 version?</P> <P> </P>

[Isa]

Your M1 will not be 48% after the revamp....

[Alluna E]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lerwill wrote:<BR> <P>This frustrates me only in the fact that my Master 1 Everburning Fire currently is 48% haste...so it drops 11% for the Master 2 version?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not part of beta, but my assumption is the Master 1 will be lowered to 31% haste as part of the revamp.  After all, they are toning down our offense a bit and making us more in line with the tanks as intended.<BR></DIV>

[Isa]

<DIV>This latest information actually gives me a little hope for the revamp.  That M2 of Halycon's looks tasty for those of us monks wanting to focus more on DPS.  I have been looking for the place where they might give us a little customizability of our characters and this looks like where they are going to do it.</DIV>

[Cwi]

<div></div><span>I’m going to take Master 2 Halcyon Blessing at 50 and Coiling Serpent at 60. This way when I’m 60 both my best offense stance CA and best defense stance CA will be Master 2 quality. </span><div></div>

[Germo]

that sounds like the way to go to me <div></div>

[Ribbitz]

<P>I have a couple of questions, so lets begin!</P> <P>Firstly, isn't there ways to get Master II, Master III, or Master IV in DoF anyway? Is this just sorta a 'freebie', but in the end you can upgrade all 4 spells to or past that quality anyway if you're lucky? I recall hearing about significantly stronger Master spells as drops, but I could be wrong. That would be nice, since picking your upgrade would no longer feel quite so critical if you later changed your style or didn't care for your selection (or were simply misinformed).</P> <P>Secondly, is it my understanding that Halcyon Blessing is the best Offensive stance a level 60 monk will receive and then at 60 we receive another defensive stance, Coiling Serpent or something to that effect. Therefor, as a poster above said, we could Master II both our primary stances? That's fairly interesting to me, as it would seem like that would be the way to go (for the following reasons: Being tanks, it's benefetial to have a high end defense stance for small group accassions even if some of us prefer the DPS role. The level 50 def stance master II would be a waste of a selection, since it apparently becomes outdated at 60. Spider stance, and its upgrade, I think we all agree is semi-useless for the most part. As of now theres no real benefit to use that since it sucks your entire concentration bar into oblivion and we have some GREAT single conc buffs that could theoretically make either of the other stances significantly more powerful. As for haste, again, the level 50 choice becomes outdated by Everburning Blaze. That leaves Halcyon Blessing alone). Is this all accurate? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Finally, one last question I haven't been able to play with on beta much I thought I'd ask (though if no one knows, I'll probably be testing this myself tonight if I'm able to get some beta-time in). Do mobs 360 avoid now too? My highest damage numbers of course came from behind the mob, when our chain attacks are able to land constantly without an avoidance check. My damage effectively triples on live when I'm DPS role behind the mob laying into him. I know monks (and I believe all other classes with avoidances) now get a 360 avoidance check, but do mobs too?</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ribbitz wrote:<BR> <P>I have a couple of questions, so lets begin!</P> <P>Firstly, isn't there ways to get Master II, Master III, or Master IV in DoF anyway? Is this just sorta a 'freebie', but in the end you can upgrade all 4 spells to or past that quality anyway if you're lucky? I recall hearing about significantly stronger Master spells as drops, but I could be wrong. That would be nice, since picking your upgrade would no longer feel quite so critical if you later changed your style or didn't care for your selection (or were simply misinformed).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Master II's are freebies every 10 levels of four predetermined spells.  Each toon will only get one of these 4 to Master II quality every 10 levels, or 6 total afaik.  Master IIIs are incoming with DoF but they are like anything else that is fabled crafted.  They will require I believe a Star Ruby Rune, a regular rare ruby (for t5 at least) and then a Sage who has scribed the appropriate rare recipe book.</FONT></P> <P>Secondly, is it my understanding that Halcyon Blessing is the best Offensive stance a level 60 monk will receive and then at 60 we receive another defensive stance, Coiling Serpent or something to that effect. Therefor, as a poster above said, we could Master II both our primary stances? That's fairly interesting to me, as it would seem like that would be the way to go (for the following reasons: Being tanks, it's benefetial to have a high end defense stance for small group accassions even if some of us prefer the DPS role. The level 50 def stance master II would be a waste of a selection, since it apparently becomes outdated at 60. Spider stance, and its upgrade, I think we all agree is semi-useless for the most part. As of now theres no real benefit to use that since it sucks your entire concentration bar into oblivion and we have some GREAT single conc buffs that could theoretically make either of the other stances significantly more powerful. As for haste, again, the level 50 choice becomes outdated by Everburning Blaze. That leaves Halcyon Blessing alone). Is this all accurate? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes, it is my intention if this system goes live to get Halycon master II at 50 and then Coiling Serpent Master II at 60, thereby having both Master II stances at 60 when I start raiding.</FONT></P> <P>Finally, one last question I haven't been able to play with on beta much I thought I'd ask (though if no one knows, I'll probably be testing this myself tonight if I'm able to get some beta-time in). Do mobs 360 avoid now too? My highest damage numbers of course came from behind the mob, when our chain attacks are able to land constantly without an avoidance check. My damage effectively triples on live when I'm DPS role behind the mob laying into him. I know monks (and I believe all other classes with avoidances) now get a 360 avoidance check, but do mobs too?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If they do (and I haven't tested it to be sure) it would only be mobs who are brawlers.  Which, while not rare, certainly isn't every mob either.  I'll email MG and ask him though just to be 100% certain and let you guys know.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Ribbitz]

<DIV>Ah, this 360 avoidance only goes to Brawlers and not Guardians and whatnot? Woot, I didnt know that. Now I feel special.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the information Gaige. Glad to see that, regardless of how terrible expensive or difficult it will be, you will be able to upgrade all spells now if you have the insane desire to do so. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I doubt I'll ever reach that point of Master III'ing all those available spells, but the fact I have the option to try makes me happy)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ribbitz on <span class=date_text>08-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 PM</span>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<blockquote>Finally, one last question I haven't been able to play with on beta much I thought I'd ask (though if no one knows, I'll probably be testing this myself tonight if I'm able to get some beta-time in). Do mobs 360 avoid now too? My highest damage numbers of course came from behind the mob, when our chain attacks are able to land constantly without an avoidance check. My damage effectively triples on live when I'm DPS role behind the mob laying into him. I know monks (and I believe all other classes with avoidances) now get a 360 avoidance check, but do mobs too? <p><font color="#ffff00">If they do (and I haven't tested it to be sure) it would only be mobs who are brawlers.  Which, while not rare, certainly isn't every mob either.  I'll email MG and ask him though just to be 100% certain and let you guys know.</font></p> <hr> </blockquote>It's only mobs that are flagged as Brawlers, Monks, or Bruisers. I came a cross a lvl 60 paladin the other day struggling with a named mob that continually healed it self over and over with no sign of losing power. I joined up with her and shortly after we were bombarded with Savage Blows which pretty much instantly killed me, as I took 3x 9-1000 hits. It also kept Parrying, Blocking and Riposting in a 360 degree circle, like Brawler players. Very frustrating to fight as alot of the hits were Avoided one way or another. <div></div></blockquote></span>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>stfields wrote:<div>When you choose these "Master II" abilities, is it similar to how we chose our other training choices?  We get the flashing/glowing + sign on the screen that relentlessly reminds us to pick our upgrade?  </div><hr></blockquote>Yes.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>Finally, one last question I haven't been able to play with on beta much I thought I'd ask (though if no one knows, I'll probably be testing this myself tonight if I'm able to get some beta-time in). Do mobs 360 avoid now too? My highest damage numbers of course came from behind the mob, when our chain attacks are able to land constantly without an avoidance check. My damage effectively triples on live when I'm DPS role behind the mob laying into him. I know monks (and I believe all other classes with avoidances) now get a 360 avoidance check, but do mobs too? <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If they do (and I haven't tested it to be sure) it would only be mobs who are brawlers.  Which, while not rare, certainly isn't every mob either.  I'll email MG and ask him though just to be 100% certain and let you guys know.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's only mobs that are flagged as Brawlers, Monks, or Bruisers. I came a cross a lvl 60 paladin the other day struggling with a named mob that continually healed it self over and over with no sign of losing power. I joined up with her and shortly after we were bombarded with Savage Blows which pretty much instantly killed me, as I took 3x 9-1000 hits. It also kept Parrying, Blocking and Riposting in a 360 degree circle, like Brawler players. Very frustrating to fight as alot of the hits were Avoided one way or another. </SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>Which MG just confirmed for me this morning.  Yes mobs that populate zones as brawlers/bruisers/monks do in fact benefit from the 360 degree avoidance arc that we get.<BR> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 PM</span>

[Arrowheart]

<P>New master 2 trainings (now at 14 and then every 10 levels):</P> <P>In order up to the level 44 options...</P> <P>Power Strike<BR>Martial Focus<BR>Indomitable Will<BR>Provoke</P> <P>Tranquil Blessing<BR>Hand Clap<BR>Wisdom of Zephyl<BR>Grappling Bear</P> <P>Sweeping Crane<BR>Silent Threat<BR>Everburning Flame<BR>Darting Sparrow</P> <P>Will of the Wind<BR>Dragon Advance<BR>Icy Talon<BR>Winding Dragon</P>

[pootski]

I wish the 360 thing was able to be toggled.  There are times when you dont WANT to riposte, such as when billy agros you in nek castle, and you don't want him dead yet, so you just keep him behind you while you continue on with the quest till he finally gives up and goes back to spawn.  Now he will die and there goes the quest. <div></div>

[Cwi]

To anyone that was planning to pick Halycon Blessing at 50 and Coiling Serpent at 60, the change to picking training options at 14/24/34/44/54 is a serious disappointment. The new system only lets you choose spells from the previous 4 levels, meaning Halycon Blessing (level 49 CA) and Coiling Serpent (level 58 CA) won't be offered. And why are the devs doing this? <span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: <p>This is all still subject to change, of course, but starting Training at level 14 has a practical purpose. With your first Training option at level 10, you were choosing from your archtype abilities even though you had already picked your class. At level 20, you were picking class abilities even though you had chosen a subclass.</p> <p>Under the new system, at level 14 you will pick from spells granted during your last 4 levels; in other words, since you have picked a class you are given class spells to pick from. Similarly, at 24 you will pick from spells granted since you picked your subclass.</p> <p>I agree there is a certain milestone quality to picking at 10-level increments, but starting the choice at 14 fits better with the idea of progressing toward your own unique identy rather than falling back on improving spells from a previous profession choice.</p><hr></blockquote></span> Our best CA's are no longer included as training choices so that newbs can pick to train CAs appropriate to their class and sub-class. If you are as displeased by this as I am I encounrage you to post your opinion on the matter. Here is the thread which MG has commented in and therefore possibly paying attention to about this matter. <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=26628" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=26628</a> I'm also going to PM the devs and use the in-game /feedback. <span></span><div></div>

[Grabaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cwiyk wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN>Our best CA's are no longer included as training choices so that newbs can pick to train CAs appropriate to their class and sub-class. If you are as displeased by this as I am I encounrage you to post your opinion on the matter. Here is the thread which MG has commented in and therefore possibly paying attention to about this matter. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is a major dissapointment - I too have feedbacked/pm'd MG.</P> <P>While I agree picking choices from a previous class/subclass wasn't preferable at the low end, that is not sufficient justification for eliminating diversity in the high end, especially the master stances.</P> <P>*Sigh*</P> <P>Put it back - We're running out of time to make drastic changes right before expansion. Let changes exist long enough for people to thoroughly test them. I for one, don't expect to be exploring Maj'Dul till the 15th or the 16th, to address issues with last minute changes like these.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<P>I've offered two opinions on this matter myself:</P> <P>One: Put the system back the way it was. Heh.</P> <P>Two:  Allow training at 9, 19, 29, 39, 49, 59.  This makes sense in a few ways because as you end a tier and begin a new one, you'll be able to select from 4 spells of the tier you are leaving to "master".  Proving that making it through the tier has allowed you to gain intimate knowledge with all spells of that tier, and to be a true master of one.</P> <P>I really hate this new 14th lvl crap.</P> <P>BUT, you can pick Winding Dragon at 44 and Halycon's at 54 and still have master II of two stances, just not the newest defensive one.  While that isn't ideal, it could be worse.</P>

[JudyJudy]

<DIV>I think Gage has something here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It makes perfect sense to progress the skill system as he mentioned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only by "experiencing" all of the CA's within a tier can one truly choose which to master.</DIV>

[Cwi]

Halycon Blessing is presented as one of the 54 choices? Its a 49 spell and MG said "you will pick from spells granted during your last 4 levels" so that would be levels 50-54 for the 54 choices wouldn't it? I'll be thrilled if HB is still an option for training, but it won't be according to how MG described the change. <p><span><b><font color="#ffff00">9,19,29,39,49,59</font></b> or </span><b><font color="#ffff00"><span>15, 24, 33, 42, 51, 60</span></font></b></p> <p><span><!-- [if !supportEmptyParas] --></span></p> <span>I can agree with either of these compromise (I prefer the first), under the condition that choices given at each tier include all “class defining” spells from the past 9 levels (i.e. offense/defense stances for fighters, biggest nukes for mages, biggest heals for priests, etc.)</span> <div></div>

[Gaige]

All I know is my lvl 60 has HB master II.  So yes, I assume its the lvl 54 trait selection.  Although I forgot what else I had to choose from.  So Winding Dragon at 44 and HB at 54 I suppose.

[Cwi]

<div></div><span>omg, /respec and tell us the 54 choices you lazy slacker! <span>:smileyhappy:</span> J/k Gaige, thanks for confirming we still get HB. Since I’ve already got Adept 3 Winding Dragon I might just take the Master 2 Dragon Advance. Both of them get upgrades by 60 though. <span>:smileysad:</span></span><div></div>