Fellow monks help me explain something to a friend

[MoonglumHMV]

<DIV>It's a simple question, but I can't get him to understand what I'm saying...or I'm maybe not understanding it myself...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the difference both in actual game mechanics and why do you prefer one vs the other on the subject of /assist vs passthrough targeting?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm back to the game after a few months back to SWG <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I'm feeling a litle rusty on stuff...</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>MoonglumHMV wrote:<div>It's a simple question, but I can't get him to understand what I'm saying...or I'm maybe not understanding it myself...</div> <div> </div> <div>What is the difference both in actual game mechanics and why do you prefer one vs the other on the subject of /assist vs passthrough targeting?</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm back to the game after a few months back to SWG <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I'm feeling a litle rusty on stuff...</div><hr></blockquote> If Dps player 1 targets Tank, Dps player 1 will hit anything that the tank is targetting when Dps player 1 fires off his skill. If Dps player 2 uses /assist on the tank, Dps player 2 is now targetting the mob the tank was targetting at that exact moment, and all successive skills will target that mob until it dies or dps player 2 changes targets in some manner. If you have more than one mob in an encounter, some tanks will try to ensure control of agro on all of them in case of AOE damage and pulled agro due to buffs by switching targets off the primary and taunting and doing damage to each mob in the encounter. Dps player 1 is now adding hate to him on each mobe that the tank targets, making it harder for the tank to keep agro off of dps player 1. Dps player 2 is only working on the first mob that theoretically the tank built a decent amout of hate on. In addition, if Dps players 1,2, 3, etc all target the tank, and the tank switches mobs all the dps switches as well, thus spreading damage out among the encounter... so if the tank has to deal with an add the first mob is now still beating on him without anyone working to kill him.  If all DPSers focus on the first mob, it dies faster due to concentration of damage. In my opinion the concentration of damage on one target is more important than the agro generation.. do you -really- want to do 25% damage on mob one, then 25% on mob 2 then 25% on mob 3 and then 25% on mob 4, thus STILL having 4 critters beating on the tank?  Or do you want to put all 100% on one mob, in the same time frame and now reduce the damage done to the tank by 25%, improving healers capacity to keep you all alive? In a multimob encounter in many cases its very smart to taunt all the mobs with direct taunts instead of relying on the aoe taunt, simply because there are some arts that draw agro... buffs, heals (of certain types til they fix it) and some HOs and procs..  So in my opinion the tank should be walking among the mobs tanking and everyone else stuck on the one the tank said to target until it dies or he says to switch.</span><div></div>

[bonesbro]

Remember that once a skill or spell has started to cast that it will land on the original target even if you change while it's casting.  So, you can target the mob, hit taunt, then immediately change back to the original target after only switching for a split second.

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>bonesbro wrote:Remember that once a skill or spell has started to cast that it will land on the original target even if you change while it's casting.  So, you can target the mob, hit taunt, then immediately change back to the original target after only switching for a split second. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Yup, I use this a lot.. and as long as the mob you are not on doesn't die when targetted and you dont hit ESC hitting tab will stay locked to mobs in the encounter only.. so I use that to do my group taunting when I am MT... the biggest problem is that warlock who hits his nil distortion when passthru targetting and ends up hitting that mob you are swapping to do some taunting on...</span><div></div>

[MoonglumHMV]

<P>And on that note, in the July 20 patch notes you can configure a key to return to your previous target...so you could target said add-on MOB then hit one key to return to your previous target...might not be a big deal, but in a larger group of MOBs it might save just a bit of time...</P> <P>Thank you Ariven for your explination...you said what I thought in a different way and I think he might understand it now.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We are planning on mainly duo'ing (Monk-priest (don't know what type for sure yet)), so it might not be all that much of an issue, but it still should be done with the /assist so I can taunt mobs off of him w/o him ending up attacking them and making it harder in the long run.</P>

[PsyKr]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <SPAN> <P><BR>If Dps player 1 targets Tank, Dps player 1 will hit anything that the tank is targetting when Dps player 1 fires off his skill.<BR><BR>If Dps player 2 uses /assist on the tank, Dps player 2 is now targetting the mob the tank was targetting at that exact moment, and all successive skills will target that mob until it dies or dps player 2 changes targets in some manner.<BR><BR>If you have more than one mob in an encounter, some tanks will try to ensure control of agro on all of them in case of AOE damage and pulled agro due to buffs by switching targets off the primary and taunting and doing damage to each mob in th</P> <P> e encounter.<BR><BR>Dps player 1 is now adding hate to him on each mobe that the tank targets, making it harder for the tank to keep agro off of dps player 1.<BR><BR>Dps player 2 is only working on the first mob that theoretically the tank built a decent amout of hate on.<BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>K doont mean to flame But I think thats stupid..</P> <P>I always Assist the MT because as he switches targets he TAUNTS them... So meanwhile.. whilst "Number 2" is hammering away at the first mob, The tanks agro is stationary as hes not hitting or taunting... So effectively he's drawing agro OFF the tank... <BR>So you sorta have it back the front.. If your assisting the tank, your going to be less likely to drag agro off of him...</P> <P>Secondly, I prefer going through the tank because then I can use my Mend Skill with ease as I allready have him targetted and if its a raid or your lucky enough to have a chanter.. you dont break mezzes... Tanks want you assisting them so that you dont grab agro.. and /assist ing a mob will just get your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] smacked down..</P> <P> </P> <P></SPAN> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>PsyKrow wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> <span> <p>If Dps player 1 targets Tank, Dps player 1 will hit anything that the tank is targetting when Dps player 1 fires off his skill.If Dps player 2 uses /assist on the tank, Dps player 2 is now targetting the mob the tank was targetting at that exact moment, and all successive skills will target that mob until it dies or dps player 2 changes targets in some manner.If you have more than one mob in an encounter, some tanks will try to ensure control of agro on all of them in case of AOE damage and pulled agro due to buffs by switching targets off the primary and taunting and doing damage to each mob in th</p> <p> e encounter.Dps player 1 is now adding hate to him on each mobe that the tank targets, making it harder for the tank to keep agro off of dps player 1.Dps player 2 is only working on the first mob that theoretically the tank built a decent amout of hate on.</p> <hr> <p>K doont mean to flame But I think thats stupid..</p> <p>I always Assist the MT because as he switches targets he TAUNTS them... So meanwhile.. whilst "Number 2" is hammering away at the first mob, The tanks agro is stationary as hes not hitting or taunting... So effectively he's drawing agro OFF the tank... So you sorta have it back the front.. If your assisting the tank, your going to be less likely to drag agro off of him...</p> <p>Secondly, I prefer going through the tank because then I can use my Mend Skill with ease as I allready have him targetted and if its a raid or your lucky enough to have a chanter.. you dont break mezzes... Tanks want you assisting them so that you dont grab agro.. and /assist ing a mob will just get your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] smacked down..</p> </span></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote> You can have your own opinions on the intellegence or stupidity of what I described... no problems there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok, lets try an example.. as I pull in a encounter that has say 3 mobs, I get an AOE on all and two direct taunts on the first mob.  Lets assign arbitrary numbers of say 5 units of hate per taunt, both AOE and directs.  mob 1 now has 15 units of hate, and mobs 2 and 3 now have 5. I get the encounter back to the group and position it, and everyone starts beating on mob #1.  A short time passes and I have another aoe and another 2 direct taunts on mob number 1.  So mob 1 now has 30 units of hate and 2 and 3 have 10. Lets assign more arbitrary numbers (have to do that since we dont have real hate numbers) and say the melee types are getting 1 hate per 10 seconds or so on the mob they attack, and 5 when they hit a really big attack, and the casters are doing 5 on a nuke. If I swap to mob #2 and do direct taunts, and have nukes and melee damage inbound on it while I am taunting, the melee types and mages are increasing hate with mob #2 instead of on the one I have the MOST hate on.. and if I get stunned and cant taunt, they can easily pull ahead of me in agro really fast.. for example if I swap targets and get stunned immediately and cannot taunt for a few seconds, remembering that I only have 10 units of hate on the mob, a couple of nukes or big melee attacks and they are equalling my hate... add in a group buff like breeze or pathfinding or a HOT and they can edge me out easily.  Bam, dead caster or wounded melee. Lets look at a different reason to keep people on one mob... speed to kill.  Lets go back to more arbitrary numbers.. lets say again a 3 mob encounter, and lets assign them all 100 hit points.  Lets build a party of 2 melee types and 2 casters and myself, with more arbitrary numbers of 5 points of damage per round for each of us.  Again this is a simplistic view but it shows the point.. In a normal group you have the chance of people doing an AOE attack, or doing something that does hate on the whole encounter such as a HOT or a direct heal or a buff... so you add hate to all 3 mobs... so logically the MT has to taunt them all to keep the hate built up... Some AOEs and some heals are big enough to overwhelm the slow AOE taunts that you have,  if you have grouped with a druid you have likely seen mobs 2 and 3 run right at him shortly after pull if you haven't gotten a few AOE taunts in already.. and big heals can still pull them if all you ahve are AOEs, so you really need some direct taunts for situations like this.. Now, on to the point... 5 people attacking, 5 points HP damage per person per round, everyone targetting the MT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- round 1, mob 1 gets 25 points of damage round 2 another 25 to mob 1. round 3 MT swaps to mob 2 to do some direct taunting mob 2 takes 25 points damage round 4 mob 2 takes another 25 points damage. round 5, mt swaps to mob 3 to do some direct taunting mob 3 takes 25 points of damage round 6, mob 3 takes 25 points damage round 7 mt is back on mob 1 mob 1 takes 25 points damage round 8, mob 1 takes 25 points damage and is now dead round 9 mt picks up mob 2 mob 2 takes 25 points damage round 10 mob 2 takes 25 points damage and is now dead round 11 mt picks up mob 3 mob 3 takes 25 points damage round 12 mob 3 takes 25 points of damage and is now dead Now, everyone staying on mob until it dies, then using /assist to swap --------------------------------------------------- </span><span>round 1, mob 1 gets 25 points of damage round 2 another 25 to mob 1. round 3 MT swaps to mob 2 to do some direct taunting -mob 1 takes 20 points of damage-mob 2 takes 5 points damage round 4 -mob 1 takes 20 points damage -mob 2 takes another 5 points damage. round 5, mt swaps to mob 3 to do some direct taunting -mob 1 takes 20 points of damage and is now dead-mob 3 takes 5 points of damage round 6, party uses /assist to swap to current mob -mob 3 takes 25 points damage round 7 mt moves to mob 2-mob 3 takes 20 points damage -mob 2 takes 5 points damage round 8 -mob 2 takes 5 points damage -mob 3 takes 20 points damage </span><span> round 9, mt moves back to mob 3-mob 3 takes 25 points damage </span>round 10 mob 3 takes 25 points of damage and is now dead round 11, mt picks up mob 2 and party uses /assis to swap mob 2 takes 25 points of damage round 12, mob 2 takes 25 points of damage round 13, mob 2 takes 25 points of damage round 14, mob 2 takes 25 points of damage and is now dead. With no AoE attacks all mobs are dead in version 1 by round 12, and version 2 by round 14.. it seems slower but now look at the healing factor.   In version one, a mob is dead on round 8, in version 2 its round 5.  Thats 3 rounds of an extra mob beating on the MT in version 1 that version 2 doesn't have and if mob 1 is a heavy nuker that can be a LOT of damage, so in version 2, the MT at a sooner point goes down to a lower incoming damage level, making it easier on the healer to keep up with loss of HP, lowering chance of healer needing to do direct heals and thus risk agro. If you have a healer mob in the mix, I tend to take him first (or really bad nuker mobs first) ... looking at the healing aspect.. target the healer, everyone works on him and he dies sooner, if he dies sooner he is healing the mobs less making the encounter go faster, if you used version 1 on him, you would either have to have the MT stay on the healer til it died risking agro peeling from the rest of the encounter to someone who has aoe hate, or swap to other mobs and then let that healer keep healing the encounter.. this is a LOT harder to kill fast when dealing with.. If dealing with a nuker, I want him dead fast.. so the second example shows how to take him out of the encounter faster.. and removing the very high damage inbound makes healers happy. Everyone staying on one target, in most cases, will make things -safer-.... which is emphasised by the occasisional mis target of the MT.. if he ends up accidentally targetting something at range (we all know this happens) for a moment and the warlock fires off his big ol nil distortion at that same time, bam you now have an add that has a very big desire for a warlock sandwich..  if the warlock had used /assist and stuck on his assigned target, that nil distortion would have hit something that had been taunted... removing that add, and the tank just swaps to an encounter mob without issues after he mistargeted. So, another point in the "safer" column. You can do this another way, with a main assist person who everyone targets and who is the one that chooses who to target.. he can use /assist himself to get the right target from the mt.. but he gets to choose who dies while the tank builds hate up all through the encounter at will.. in my opinion this is a very efficient and safe way to do things when you have a good MA.. if you dont... I still recommend the /assist command.. so, its up to you.. easier for you because you dont have to ask people to use /assist and your group can be lazy, or you have to actually express a desire to use the command to the group and they can do their fair share of the combat and you will have less mana consumption and a safer on many points encounter with fewer risks of adds.. Now, I wont comment on which of those two -i- consider a stupid idea...  but lets just say less mana used on that healer means more mana available in case of an emergency... <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ariven on <span class=date_text>07-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 AM</span>

[bonesbro]

<P>In my experience, the MT in an experience group almost never has to switch targets to maintain agro on multiple mobs.  In a raid situation, the MT and MA (main assist) roles are seperated to two different players so that the MT can switch targets at will to taunt and everyone else autoattacks through the MA.</P> <P>In the several XP group situations where the MT did need to switch targets repeatedly to taunt, we nominated a seperate MA.</P> <P>Finally, the MT does not need to maintain target on mob2 the entire round to taunt.  You can switch targets, press the taunt button, then immediately switch back to mob1.  Once you have started to cast an ability on a mob, it will hit that mob even if your current target changes away from it.</P>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>bonesbro wrote:<p>In my experience, the MT in an experience group almost never has to switch targets to maintain agro on multiple mobs.  In a raid situation, the MT and MA (main assist) roles are seperated to two different players so that the MT can switch targets at will to taunt and everyone else autoattacks through the MA.</p> <p>In the several XP group situations where the MT did need to switch targets repeatedly to taunt, we nominated a seperate MA.</p> <p>Finally, the MT does not need to maintain target on mob2 the entire round to taunt.  You can switch targets, press the taunt button, then immediately switch back to mob1.  Once you have started to cast an ability on a mob, it will hit that mob even if your current target changes away from it.</p><hr></blockquote> I have had more than one occaision where it was smart to swap targets to keep agro under control.. the owlbears in Nek forest for example tend to not break and agro random group members as often if the MT can get direct taunts and damage in on each..  there is also the people who haven't yet learned to control their AOE agro, such as newer druids with their HOTs, scouts who toss off a pathfinding during combat, warlock who like their AOE nukes (I like em too, but when I have agro controlled)... Point of it being, it doesn't hurt to add taunts to everything in the encounter, and in fact in some situations it helps.. And yes, once you cast an ability on a mob it will indeed hit that mob, but that doesn't stop the passthru targeters from getting in a nuke on a lightly taunted mob like keeping them on target or on the MA. If it doesn't hurt, improves mana consumption on the healers part, takes out the dangerous mobs faster, and makes things safer, it sure gets used in my book... especially when dealing with untrained group members or pickup groups... For the record, I am referring primarily to XP and "fun" groups not Raids.. I dont claim to have high experience on how raids work out, especially on the high end of things as I have only MT'd two guild reward raids.. and on those we used the MT/MA setup to great advantage... as my tanks approach higher levels I will get more experience on higher raids and will be able to expound at length on those as well with my ramblings.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Cuz]

Party with a chanter for long enough and you'll never focus through the MT, or like it when others do it to you. Poor finger twirlers and their breeze... They will get agro first, so I need to taunt the add(s). If the chanter is mezzing them as I try to taunt them and my group is hitting them... well things get more complicated for nothing.