Monks as MT

[Drulak]

<DIV>We have a representative from your class in the Guardian forums , stating that Monks should have equal abilities to MT at the very high end Mobs as guards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1: do you other Monks agree with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2: do you think your dps should be drastically lowered to make you as good MT's as Guards ??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you want to be equal MT's then you need to do equal DPS - else monks would be equal tanks , but better soloers ,  Just thought i'd get the popular opinion</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks.</DIV>

[Mala-Shea]

<P>Absolutely not. What the hell does the game have guardians for? Damage per season? Seriously, manks should not ever be able to tank like gaurdians, i am very happy with where we are now. I would not be happy if my main role in the game was matched by someone who doubled my DPS. Not fair at all.</P> <P>Give your gaurdians a break and let them do what they are made to do, just my opinion</P> <P> </P>

[Lebr]

Yes and we need to beable to res and evac too also we need our heal to be on a 10sec recast timer.

[Dandeli]

<DIV>I'd want to be a awesome group tank. I didnt ever want to think monks were for tanking named epics. Maybee the possibility of the first epic in Anotica (forget the name, with lich and twins yadda)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldnt mind seeing our damage lowered a little. Our tanking improved a little.<BR>I'd like to see guardians damage lowered more, and their tanking increased more towards epics, and less towards group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm hoping we might see this, by letting them have more mitigation, but way less avoidance then they have now.  Against most epics, They're just gonna hit you, so who really cares if the guardian has 100% or 0% avoidance, its gonna hit you most of the time (or should). So that could make them better because their mitigation (and our avoidance wouldnt be as practical). Though in a group, a monk might be better or equal, because a heroic is a lot easier to avoid. Though a guardian could still doit, I'd like to see this be where avoidance shines.<BR><BR>XoXo</DIV>

[blueduckie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lebru1 wrote:<BR>Yes and we need to beable to res and evac too also we need our heal to be on a 10sec recast timer. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Dont forget your mend should turn into a complete heal with additional bonus of boosting hp by 10k for 10 minutes.</P>

[Owa]

Ok - call me unrealistic, but as well as being the best tanks I think we should be able to fly, do 50000 DPS, be invisible AND visible at the same time, be naked but not in a vulgar way and with really good skin tone, have a summer house in Provence, a coterie of servants, unlimited sexual energy and a really good selection of vintage clarets. <p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 AM</span>

[Ai064]

<P>I would have to say that in order to increase our tanking ability the only fair thing would be to lower our dps.  Since I happen to like my monk having decent dps I'm happy with my tanking ability.  I main tank in 99% of the groups I'm in and do an okay job.  Just wish I had a couple more taunts is all for the most part.  </P> <P>So no, I don't think we should be an equal tank compared to a guardian.  I'd hate to give up the dps to do that.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Winn]

<DIV>All I ask is that Guardians respect me for the flying-invunerable-laser-beams-from-eyes-battle-mech Monk that I am.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then I hear you say, "You're a monk? Get real!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Indeed, indeed.</DIV>

[Ashleyyy]

<DIV>Unfortunately this is going to be a never-ending argument. But I'll contribute anyway :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As long as there are different classes, some will always have certain advantages over others. I honestly believe that if you cannot see the advantages in your own class, then you should be trying something else. I've been a monk for almost 42 seasons and although the road sometimes gets rocky, and when I'm getting my [Removed for Content] totally kicked I think it would be nice if I could evac, heal, take damage like a plate tank, buff myself, mez, have that house in Provence...but I know it's not going to happen. That's the entire concept behind having different classes and sub-classes: strengths and weaknesses and building a group dynamic built around those traits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As long as monks do a considerable amount of damage, they will never tank the same way a guardian does. I mean come on, we wear pajamas, for goodness' sake!  We can take measures to be the best tanks we can be, by raising our agility and consequently our avoidance, and understanding how our tanking differs from that of a guardian. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[stfields]

<P>If they plan to take away our damage (which they will), I certainly would have no qualms if monks had a niche in raid MT scenarios.  And I don't mean a "niche" like the post by Gaige where he tanked Zalak.  While impressive, that doesn't "count" as a niche.  I'd venture that a Paladin or Guardian could've done that job even better (no offense meant).  </P> <P>If they came up with a scenario where Monks were the best tank, I'd happily give up some damage to tank raid mobs.  </P>

[bonesbro]

<span><blockquote><hr>Drulak wrote:<div>We have a representative from your class in the Guardian forums , stating that Monks should have equal abilities to MT at the very high end Mobs as guards.</div> <div> </div> <div>1: do you other Monks agree with that.</div> <div> </div> <div>2: do you think your dps should be drastically lowered to make you as good MT's as Guards ??</div> <div> </div> <div>if you want to be equal MT's then you need to do equal DPS - else monks would be equal tanks , but better soloers ,  Just thought i'd get the popular opinion</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks.</div><hr></blockquote> I think that we should be a viable MT.  If the guardian logs off, the raid shouldn't look at me, sigh, and call it a night.  There should be raids where the optimal tank is a brawler, the same as there are fights where the optimal tank will be a guardian.  For instance, you have the most taunts, and we rely on damage for much of our tanking, so you will probably be the best tank on fights against mobs with high melee defense or against mobs where you have to tank without attacking to avoid ripostes.  Brawlers currently have very little ability to taunt multiple unlinked encounters, have difficulty taunting multiple mobs in a single linked encounter, and do not tank well against larger groups of mobs.  Guardians have a much easier time at that.  For instance, the swarms of mobs in Anvilpaw's Grotto are a textbook example of a fight where brawlers make poor tanks.  Our primary defense is avoidance in a 120 degree frontal arc, and our primary method of holding agro is single-target DPS. Given those significant restrictions, we should be better than you in some circumstance, right?  Otherwise we're just assassins who accidentally clicked 'fighter'. The classes are different, and so there are obviously going to be some scenarios where a brawler is better than a guardian.  Think of it like Starcraft.  There are three extremely different races, and each one is better in different circumstances, but overall the game is extremely well balanced.  The alternative is a game like C&C or Warcraft2, where the main difference between the two sides is what color their units are.  I am not a flesh-toned Guardian. Regardless, our discussion is moot, because Moorgard has made it very clear that we ARE tanks, and that we WILL be viable raid tanks in some circumstances.  Don't pretend that you have any idea what will happen to the skills for either class, because you don't.  Don't assume that things will be exactly the same with a few changes in tankability, because they're changing every skill.  Finally, please think outside the dps/tanking box a bit: things like group utility and taunting effectiveness also contribute to balance without showing up on a braindead log parser.</span><div></div>

[Grabaan]

/agree Bonesbro <div></div>

[Ai064]

<DIV>Which petty child 1-starred the OP?  All he did was ask our opinion on if we felt we should be equally effective as main tanks while keeping our higher dps.  Not a question worth a star if you ask me, which no one did.  But you made me 5star him to balance it out.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Doug]

<P>Monks, as well as all fighters, are taking a DPS hit according to dev posts.</P> <P>Monks, as well as Guardians, are Fighters.</P> <P>Monks should have situations where they indeed tank better than guardians, and situations where they indeed do not.</P> <P> </P> <P>That is all.</P>

[Dandeli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ai064 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Which petty child 1-starred the OP?  All he did was ask our opinion on if we felt we should be equally effective as main tanks while keeping our higher dps.  Not a question worth a star if you ask me, which no one did.  But you made me 5star him to balance it out.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Who ... really ... cares .... about stars? Seriously, I could be 1 starred in every single post I make ... and not even know it.</P> <P>Nobody needs to grow up, because nobody cares... </P> <P>I'll never understand the fascination with stars. </P>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dandelize wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ai064 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Which petty child 1-starred the OP?  All he did was ask our opinion on if we felt we should be equally effective as main tanks while keeping our higher dps.  Not a question worth a star if you ask me, which no one did.  But you made me 5star him to balance it out.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Who ... really ... cares .... about stars? Seriously, I could be 1 starred in every single post I make ... and not even know it.</P> <P>Nobody needs to grow up, because nobody cares... </P> <P>I'll never understand the fascination with stars. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>True - ish. The thing is, whoever is going through this post one-starring (almost) everybody is trying to [Removed for Content] people off. Just 'cause they don't succeed doesn't mean they're not a [Removed for Content]. :smileywink:<BR> <p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:12 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Heh, I'm not a representative of anything but my own opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll ask you guys something though:  Our DPS is getting reduced... what do you want and what do you honestly think SOE will give you in return?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for tanking as good/better than guardians, nah, not in every encounter, maybe a couple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd much rather see raids take a variety of tanks to help each other out, than just one.  Too many fighters to rely on one.  That hurts us and the scout class when we do insane damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just hope you guys realize anything I've ever asked for is because I've always known our DPS was overpowered (hello replacing scouts) and I'm fairly sure from my lengthy discussions with MG and the others that they'll give us defense and tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I could be wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So knowing that our DPS is lowering, what do you guys think is reasonable to ask for in return, if not tanking ability?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[bonesbro]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So knowing that our DPS is lowering, what do you guys think is reasonable to ask for in return, if not tanking ability?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>07-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yup.  And, as a corollary to that, I'd say that most Monks who are unwilling to take a DPS decrease for increased tanking ability feel that they will never get enough tanking ability to make them a viable MT, so the extra defense would be completely useless.  Therefore, they must not allow their DPS to be decreased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And really, if we aren't a viable MT on some raids, what's the point of extra defense?  A better chance to not be one-shotted by Wrath of Fury?</DIV>

[OgApostrap]

Our dps isn't going down that much.. they said they are lowering auto attack dmg of fighters only.. keeping arts the same damage.. So... we wont be losing much... but we will.. ahhhh

[Dandeli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OgApostraphe wrote:<BR>Our dps isn't going down that much.. they said they are lowering auto attack dmg of fighters only.. keeping arts the same damage.. So... we wont be losing much... but we will.. ahhhh <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They said they're revamping every art, for every class. Also, Adding someone and removing some. It sounds like the arts wont be keeping the same damage.<BR> <DIV> </DIV>

[Winn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bonesbro wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So knowing that our DPS is lowering, what do you guys think is reasonable to ask for in return, if not tanking ability?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>07-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yup.  And, as a corollary to that, I'd say that most Monks who are unwilling to take a DPS decrease for increased tanking ability feel that they will never get enough tanking ability to make them a viable MT, so the extra defense would be completely useless.  Therefore, they must not allow their DPS to be decreased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And really, if we aren't a viable MT on some raids, what's the point of extra defense?  A better chance to not be one-shotted by Wrath of Fury?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is the point I think many are feeling.</P> <P>If we're already great at DPS and sucky with Tanking I don't want to be merely okay at DPS & Tanking, because then we're just taking up another slot which can be used by others for DPS.</P> <P>Think about this from a group's perspective, you wouldn't make a group with 5 tanks and a healer would you? (remember that Figher =! Tank currently)</P> <P>If you're going to a zone with a full group and XP on orange con mobs, you'd want 1 tank, 2 healers 2 DPS and 1 utility class. How often do you XP on green/blue mobs? Seldom.</P> <P>Let's face it, with a DPS decrease we're just going to be less useful to groups & raids overall. I admit with tanking increase will help for small 2-3 man groups, but let's see how we 3-man group an epic encounter.  Lowering DPS just decreasing our offerings.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>If we do get a DPS decrease, I've always felt that monks & bruisers as non-plate fighters should be the "magekillers".</P> <P>Melee tanking ability should remain the same, DPS lowered slightly for bruisers, but lowered even more for monks.</P> <P>Monks should have innate spell resistance, more stifles and more heals/cures. He fights casters by shrugging off their spell damages while curing their debuffs and healing himself, and wearing down the caster. Defensive style.</P> <P>Bruisers should do more damage than monks (but less than scouts, of course) get more combat arts that stun (instead of stifle) and interrupts, and skills that DOT hp/power. He fights casters through raw force of arms, pummeling the caster with stuns and interrupts to prevent those damaging spells. Offensive Style.</P> <P>That fits the goal of opposing Offensive/Defensive subclasses ala Guardian/Berserker, Paladin/Shadowknight.</P> <P>Well, that's MY "vision" anyway. Feel free to disagree. <EM>Constructively.</EM></P>

[Ai064]

<EM>So knowing that our DPS is lowering, what do you guys think is reasonable to ask for in return, if not tanking ability?</EM> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fair question.  I would like an increase in mitigation and a larger hitpoint pool.  It just scares healers to death when I lose 1/3 to 1/2 of my life in a shot.  Hehheh.  Plus it startles me and leads to me accusing my wife of not healing properly.  Which leads to her being irked.....which leads to frigid sleeping conditions....and so on.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Dandeli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ai064 wrote:<BR><EM>So knowing that our DPS is lowering, what do you guys think is reasonable to ask for in return, if not tanking ability?</EM> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fair question.  I would like an increase in mitigation and a larger hitpoint pool.  It just scares healers to death when I lose 1/3 to 1/2 of my life in a shot.  Hehheh.  Plus it startles me and leads to me accusing my wife of not healing properly.  Which leads to her being irked.....which leads to frigid sleeping conditions....and so on.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Now I know why men like to buy nice couches, gotta have something nice to sleep on.

[Dasanhgul]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dandelize wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Now I know why men like to buy nice couches, gotta have something nice to sleep on. </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Monk with Templar wife... and I picked our couch :manvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[blueduckie]

<P>Monks really shouldnt get there mitigation boosted. Pajamas dont hardly even absorb a pillow much less a giant guy barshin ya. Total raid buffed hp is going down so will see it being alot more even but still not up to par of the plate wearers unless alot of stamina. You will get some more consistance avoidance though. </P> <P>My question though. Why do many monks even complain about your hit points when 99% of monks work str and agi and dont even touch stamina with hex dolls and mostly rings(some use all 3) also on racial selections for hp% stamina choices etc. Why arnt all these selected if want so much hp will boost it considerably higher at the cost of very little avoidance since it it atm based mostly on defense lvl not agi as long as uou have 100agi. I also see monks soloing blue con heroics all day long why dont you pick lower mobs and kill faster if you are duoing and getting wailed on is even better xp if priest has to do hardly any healing and just mostly dps but keeps power up where you can hop from mob to mob.</P> <P>just my 2 cents</P>

[Oneira]

<span><blockquote><hr>Winnoe wrote: <blockquote> <hr> bonesbro wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Gage-Mikel wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div> </div> <div>So knowing that our DPS is lowering, what do you guys think is reasonable to ask for in return, if not tanking ability?</div> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class="date_text">07-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:51 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Yup.  And, as a corollary to that, I'd say that most Monks who are unwilling to take a DPS decrease for increased tanking ability feel that they will never get enough tanking ability to make them a viable MT, so the extra defense would be completely useless.  Therefore, they must not allow their DPS to be decreased.</div> <div> </div> <div>And really, if we aren't a viable MT on some raids, what's the point of extra defense?  A better chance to not be one-shotted by Wrath of Fury?</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>That is the point I think many are feeling.</p> <p>If we're already great at DPS and sucky with Tanking I don't want to be merely okay at DPS & Tanking, because then we're just taking up another slot which can be used by others for DPS.</p> <p>Think about this from a group's perspective, you wouldn't make a group with 5 tanks and a healer would you? (remember that Figher =! Tank currently)</p> <p>If you're going to a zone with a full group and XP on orange con mobs, you'd want 1 tank, 2 healers 2 DPS and 1 utility class. How often do you XP on green/blue mobs? Seldom.</p> <p>Let's face it, with a DPS decrease we're just going to be less useful to groups & raids overall. I admit with tanking increase will help for small 2-3 man groups, but let's see how we 3-man group an epic encounter.  Lowering DPS just decreasing our offerings.</p> <p>If we do get a DPS decrease, I've always felt that monks & bruisers as non-plate fighters should be the "magekillers".</p> <p>Melee tanking ability should remain the same, DPS lowered slightly for bruisers, but lowered even more for monks.</p> <p>Monks should have innate spell resistance, more stifles and more heals/cures. He fights casters by shrugging off their spell damages while curing their debuffs and healing himself, and wearing down the caster. Defensive style.</p> <p>Bruisers should do more damage than monks (but less than scouts, of course) get more combat arts that stun (instead of stifle) and interrupts, and skills that DOT hp/power. He fights casters through raw force of arms, pummeling the caster with stuns and interrupts to prevent those damaging spells. Offensive Style.</p> <p>That fits the goal of opposing Offensive/Defensive subclasses ala Guardian/Berserker, Paladin/Shadowknight.</p> <p>Well, that's MY "vision" anyway. Feel free to disagree. <em>Constructively.</em></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree here.  If Monks and Bruisers take too much of a DPS decrease, it's going to ruin the class--well, let's say make them much less useful.  Increasing our tanking ability then results in a so-called "parity" that turns an interesting class into a weak version of a Zerker. IMHO Monk dps should not be lowered that much.  Second, Monk heal should be improved by decreasing the timer.  Third, I don't agree that Bruisers should have the stifles and stuns alone. . .bruisers should do more damage, but both classes should be doing stifles and stuns.  Fourth, Moorguard says that Monks will be able to help resist and/or mitigate negative effects of spells.  That's fine. Simply making Monks defensive avoidance machines won't cut it.</span><div></div>

[Alaile]

<P>I agree our DPS should be lowered in exchange for being a better tank.  A boost in our health would be great too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I pretty much keep my stamina and agility close to even with my strength coming in just under them.  My hit points are sad still!</P> <P>I just hope when they revamp us they keep in mind that alot of our agro comes from our damage, and they give us more taunts, or skills with agro built in to make up for our decrease in DPS.</P>

[Lebr]

<P>I just wish that SoE would bite the bullet now and make Bruisers/Monks the light tank dps class from the fighter tree. Really could careless about tanking anymore lets face it onlything more boring than being the MainTank is being the maintanks healers. We rely on damage to help us hold aggro but most Maintanks dont even attack they just stand there taunting and using group buffs ect to hold aggro. How many of you think that sounds fun?</P> <P>I would rather be on in the adds group where the real fun is. Main Tanks role is the most boring in game unless you like standing still doing nothing. I use to think it would be cool to be a monk tanking on raids but the more raids you do you see what a  boring job the maintank has. No Thanks "Viva La DpS" We do great in regular groups & x2epics that is good enough dont make another boring [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class out of us like the guardians have it.</P> <P>I want to be a monk not a braindead taunting machine. Only way to mess up as a guardian is to pull and put the mob in a bad postion.  Otherwise its a snorefest.</P>

[Doug]

<P>You know the above poster has a point.</P> <P> </P> <P>SOE could make Monks the light tank DPS of the fighters.</P> <P> </P> <P>Have us STILL DO LESS DAMAGE than scouts, but more than the other fighters.</P> <P>Give us utility that warrants our pressence in raids.  Let us remain DPS/light tank of all the fighters.</P>

[Lareal]

 I'd like to see them design mobs tailored to the tanking style instead of nerfing classes. Make some mobs that would be better handled by an avoidance tank than a high-hp one. Mob with high melee dmg- Use a Guardian Mob with low melee dmg + truly wicked AE Proc on a successful hit- Use an avoidance Tank <div></div>

[Lebr]

<P>Why would anyone use Avoidance if its low melee people would still stick a guardian infront of it.  We would be in the same boat standing behind it using silent fist ect. Guardians would just throw on thier resist gear like they do now for Vox.   If they lower our Dps the only people that will help is scouts. Our big gain from the sound of it is gonna bei purging harmful spell effects.  So why would anyone want a monk if we have average dps and our claim to fame will be removing harmful effects? They wont we will be the least wanted class for raids. Unless they are gonna take cures ect away from other classes.</P> <P>I have a feeling we will be truly broken after this revamp. I do have some good news tho........ I just saved a bunch a money on my car insurance.</P> <P>Anyway i would rather they make us into DPS class of the fighter tree, we could still be great tanks for x2 stuff and lower.  They couldnt make monks raid tanks with avoidance in Eq1 so monks became a dps class from the fighter tree. You know the saying .... If you dont know your history youre bound to repeat the same mistakes. The people at SoE have said we learned from mistakes in the first game ect.  So Eq2 will be better well im sorry but looks like youre gonna repeat mistakes that you made in the first game. </P> <P> </P> <P>In other news "Vanguard" is on the horizon and from the people i know who checked it out at E3 sounds and looks amazing. Its from the crew who made Everquest.  So Everquest 2's days are numbered.  I cant remember any other game that had to do a revamp of thier combat system in the first year of its release before can anyone?  Not only is SoE  a ground breaking company theyre a class breaking one too. "Viva la DpS"</P>

[i3ry]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lebru1 wrote:<p>I just wish that SoE would bite the bullet now and make Bruisers/Monks the light tank dps class from the fighter tree. Really could careless about tanking anymore lets face it onlything more boring than being the MainTank is being the maintanks healers. We rely on damage to help us hold aggro but most Maintanks dont even attack they just stand there taunting and using group buffs ect to hold aggro. How many of you think that sounds fun?</p> <p>I would rather be on in the adds group where the real fun is. Main Tanks role is the most boring in game unless you like standing still doing nothing. I use to think it would be cool to be a monk tanking on raids but the more raids you do you see what a  boring job the maintank has. No Thanks "Viva La DpS" We do great in regular groups & x2epics that is good enough dont make another boring [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class out of us like the guardians have it.</p> <p>I want to be a monk not a braindead taunting machine. Only way to mess up as a guardian is to pull and put the mob in a bad postion.  Otherwise its a snorefest.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, waiting for a mob to get put into position, hitting autoattack, and going AFK is ridiculously more fun than tanking :p  There's a ton more to being a MT than just hitting taunt.  To be good at it it actually takes a great deal of skill.</span><div></div>

[Lebr]

<DIV>Ok  Lioz  if it takes skill tell us an expamle or step off......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Heres how it goes down</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aslong as the tank aint braindead and puts mob in bad postion its a snorefest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank uses his potions and buffs up, everyone in raid gets in postion for the pull. Tank runs over pulls mob ranged attack or hex doll big choices here  you gotta have alot of skill.  When tank is running back group buffs ect for good aggro throw in taunts ect if its long pull.  Get mob in postion that is figured out before the pull.  Auto attack off,  taunt , taunt, group buff ect rinse repeat. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please tell us where skill is ever involved in tanking.   Only skill needed is being able to read so you know what each skill does. Then its easy to figure out whn to use each abilitie.  Unless of course you are riding the "short bus" then you might think this game requires skill.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You said theres a ton more skill i will be awaiting that long list........Also i was refering to adds groups like for Zalak it dont take skill but its better than standing in one spot .  Atleast you get to move around some. Only skill this game requires is  "Reading" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also what raids have you done ? because i cant tell that you have done any raids from your equipment. Im sure you wouldnt talk about somthing that you have no clue about.... would you ?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lebru1 on <span class=date_text>07-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 AM</span>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lebru1 wrote:<BR> <P>I just wish that SoE would bite the bullet now and make Bruisers/Monks the light tank dps class from the fighter tree.<FONT color=#ffff00> I thought we were...</FONT>Really could careless about tanking anymore lets face it onlything more boring than being the MainTank is being the maintanks healers. <FONT color=#ffff00>True true true...</FONT>We rely on damage to help us hold aggro but most Maintanks dont even attack they just stand there taunting and using group buffs ect to hold aggro. How many of you think that sounds fun? <FONT color=#ffff00>Not me!</FONT></P> <P>I would rather be on in the adds group where the real fun is. <FONT color=#ffff00>Me too!</FONT> Main Tanks role is the most boring in game unless you like standing still doing nothing. <FONT color=#ffff00>Yes!</FONT> I use to think it would be cool to be a monk tanking on raids but the more raids you do you see what a  boring job the maintank has. <FONT color=#ffff00>Agreed...</FONT>No Thanks "Viva La DpS" We do great in regular groups & x2epics that is good enough dont make another boring [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class out of us like the guardians have it. <FONT color=#ffff00>Well said sir!</FONT></P> <P>I want to be a monk not a braindead taunting machine. Only way to mess up as a guardian is to pull and put the mob in a bad postion.  Otherwise its a snorefest. <FONT color=#ffff00>Right again!</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>What a good post! It's nice to see someone bucking the fatalism that has dogged these boards for the last few months. I was going to comment about how I wanted more Hit Points or improved Wind Walk etc until I read this, and realised that we've been bombarded for so long by the message that changing the Monk class is a 'good thing', that it's difficult to remember that it's not necessarily true. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I hate to single Gage out, 'cause he's only posting what he thinks is best, but almost the entire canon of his 4000+ posts is dedicated to getting Monks made more 'tanky' and less 'DPSy'. Clearly this unparalelled level of posting has not gone unnoticed - and now the idea that our class needs 'correcting' has seemingly been accepted as gospel. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Gage is clearly not the only one who feels this way -merely the most vocal - but I still can't help but feel the Brawler class is increasingly defined by a minority who really would be better suited to playing Warriors. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>The thing is, if you really want to MT everything in the game <U>you have ready-made choices available to you without any need to redefine all the subclasses</U> - those dissatisfied with their ability to take on 57^^^x4 mobs can play Guardians or Zerkers. Is it a pain to level a different class up to 50? - yes, of course it is. I should know, 'cause that's what I did when I realised that the Warrior class wasn't for me. But rather than try to get Berserkers changed to fit my preferences, I rerolled a class that was closer to how I realised I really wanted to play. It goes without saying, perhaps, that Gage - who clearly knows a thing or two about getting to level 50 - could easily have levelled both a Guardian and a Berserker in the time he's spent trying to change the Monk class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Can Monks tank nearly everything except the game's hardest mobs? Of course we can. Do a large proportion of us think being a 'braindead taunting machine' is a 'snorefest'? I would imagine so. I do. I like my monk just fine. As things stand, it seems we have (almost) the best of both worlds - better damage than most subclasses, better tankage than most others. We're not the best at either - but as Lebru points out, being a specialist in one facet of gameplay can get pretty dull pretty fast. So let me conclude with the same tired [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I've been saying for months -</FONT></P> <P><EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>The Brawler class is perfect for those who sometimes like to tank and sometimes like to DPS.  <U>There is currently no other option for people who like that play-style.</U>  Please don't insist that those of us who prefer the occasional tanking role are 'wrong'. There's plenty of options for those who want to tank everything - can we have at least one for the rest of us?</FONT></EM></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>ps. I realise that the combat changes are coming and it's pointless protesting. But I am - so there.</FONT></P> <P><EM><BR></EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2> </FONT></P>

[bonesbro]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lebru1 wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div><div>Unless of course you are riding the "short bus" then you might think this game requires skill.  </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Also what raids have you done ? because i cant tell that you have done any raids from your equipment. Im sure you wouldnt talk about somthing that you have no clue about.... would you ?</div><p>Message Edited by Lebru1 on <span class="date_text">07-24-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:48 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> If you're serious about actually discussing this matter, please do so without resorting to childing flaming.</span><div></div>

[bonesbro]

btw good to have you back anna <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bonesbro wrote:<BR>btw good to have you back anna <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks. I haven't posted much recently so I thought I'd compensate by using a larger font.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lebru1 wrote:<BR> <P>In other news "Vanguard" is on the horizon and from the people i know who checked it out at E3 sounds and looks amazing. Its from the crew who made Everquest.  So Everquest 2's days are numbered.  I cant remember any other game that had to do a revamp of thier combat system in the first year of its release before can anyone?  Not only is SoE  a ground breaking company theyre a class breaking one too. "Viva la DPS"</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Vanguard is still way out, and it doesn't look revolutionary at all.  It like EQ1 with EQ2 graphics so far.  From what I've seen and read.  I'll play it of course, but I'm not buying into the hype that its the next great thing, because supposedly every MMO is.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lebru1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Also what raids have you done ? because i cant tell that you have done any raids from your equipment. Im sure you wouldnt talk about somthing that you have no clue about.... would you ?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow.  Nice comment.  How about you take your attitude and post elsewhere, that isn't needed here.  No one is the almighty, all knowing monk, so just get over yourself.</P> <P>You want to be DPS (opinion), you think tanking is boring (opinion) you think Vanguard is super awesome!!!!! (opinion).</P> <P>Well guess what big guy, we all have opinions, and yours isn't better than anyone elses.</P> <P>Oh, and attacking gear is lame, who cares about gear.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I hate to single Gage out, 'cause he's only posting what he thinks is best, but almost the entire canon of his 4000+ posts is dedicated to getting Monks made more 'tanky' and less 'DPSy'. Clearly this unparalelled level of posting has not gone unnoticed - and now the idea that our class needs 'correcting' has seemingly been accepted as gospel. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Gage is clearly not the only one who feels this way -merely the most vocal - but I still can't help but feel the Brawler class is increasingly defined by a minority who really would be better suited to playing Warriors. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>It goes without saying, perhaps, that Gage - who clearly knows a thing or two about getting to level 50 - could easily have levelled both a Guardian and a Berserker in the time he's spent trying to change the Monk class.</FONT></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/shrug I get singled out a lot.  I guess its just something I'm going to have to get used to for being passionate about my class and the game and posting a lot.  As long as I play and post under Gage, its not ever going to go away.</P> <P>But if anyone here honestly thinks that my post count is the reason any changes are made, well... you're wrong.  It has nothing to do with me, my post count, or my wishes.</P> <P>For every post I've made, others have made posts shouting out differing opinions, flaming me, my ideals, my dog, my mom, my water sprinkler... you get the point.</P> <P>Jezekiel and Bonesbro have no where near my post count, and I can guarantee you that the things they say don't go unnoticed.  Its not how many times you say something, its what you say.</P> <P>As for saying that my posts have turned the monk community into Gage clones (monks who want to tank I suppose) and became the gospel is stretching it a bit, I believe.  I have no way of making people support my opinion, they all have their own.</P> <P>Your last statement really irks me though.  WHY should I have to reroll though?  Just because of the misconception that the guardian/zerker classes are going to be the best raid tanks, because they were in other games?   They were broken in this game so far due to reasons of their own and buffs/combat issues.  I'm trying to avoid the "HOLY TRINITY" flavor of the month classes that EQ1 had, and you seem to be embracing it.  Weird.</P> <P>/shrug  I just don't understand that mentality.  Anna I guess wants us to be a hybrid, able to tank groups and x2, but not the hardest x4.  By having the ability to tank groups and x2 you are automatically regulating the monk class to inferior to scout dps.  Because scouts can't tank groups or x2.  Therefore in raids you'll be 100%..... NOT WANTED.  Because guardians will tank better and scouts will DPS better.  The solution to this I suppose is to give us one or two buffs or spells that the raid HAS TO HAVE.</P> <P>Then, we are buff bots, not monks.</P> <P>Is that what you want?</P> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>07-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:39 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[Owa]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> Its not how many times you say something, its what you say.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If only that were true. I think repetition usually wins out over content - see politics, music, entertainment, religion, advertising et al. Not to say that your posts are inane by any means Gage, but I'm afraid it's pretty clear that if people hear things enough they can be  influenced a lot. In fact it works so effectively there's even a word for it - 'propaganda'. Again, no offense meant, but you take my point, I hope.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As for saying that my posts have turned the monk community into Gage clones (monks who want to tank I suppose) and became the gospel is stretching it a bit, I believe.  I have no way of making people support my opinion, they all have their own.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I didn't actually say you made the community into 'Gage clones' - and the argument is <EM>actually</EM> over whether or not we want to tank high-end raids, and what we would be willing to concede for that ability. As for having no way to make people support your opinion - see above.</FONT></P> <P>Your last statement really irks me though.  WHY should I have to reroll though? <FONT color=#ffff00> Why should I? Why should anyone? Perhaps because it's only after playing the game for a while  that one realises just what one wants from one's character. Unfortunately it often takes time for people to realise they're casters trapped in a scout's body or Monks trapped in a Guardian's (ick).</FONT></P> <P>Just because of the misconception that the guardian/zerker classes are going to be the best raid tanks, because they were in other games?   They were broken in this game so far due to reasons of their own and buffs/combat issues.  I'm trying to avoid the "HOLY TRINITY" flavor of the month classes that EQ1 had, and you seem to be embracing it.  Weird. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Not at all. I think changing the unique flavour of the monk class will actually detract from the game's diversity (such as it is) and exacerbate the 'HOLY TRINITY' of Fighter, Healer, DPS.</FONT></P> <P>/shrug  I just don't understand that mentality.  Anna I guess wants us to be a hybrid, able to tank groups and x2, but not the hardest x4.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yes. I do. Because there's no other class that can do this and<EM>  </EM>I like it.</FONT></P> <P>By having the ability to tank groups and x2 you are automatically regulating the monk class to inferior to scout dps.  Because scouts can't tank groups or x2.  Therefore in raids you'll be 100%..... NOT WANTED.  <FONT color=#ffff00>(Silent Fist is pretty worthwhile on raids, as you very well know)</FONT> Because guardians will tank better and scouts will DPS better.  The solution to this I suppose is to give us one or two buffs or spells that the raid HAS TO HAVE. <FONT color=#ffff00>Good point, and one that doesn't necessarily require us to become more 'tanky'.</FONT></P> <P>Then, we are buff bots, not monks.</P> <P>Is that what you want? </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If you word it as 'buff-bots' then no, of course not. Who would? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00> If, however, the question is phrased thus: </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>A) Remain the most versatile class, with great DPS, great tanking and a useful role in raids?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><EM>or </EM></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>B) Concentrate on tanking exclusively so you can MT the highest level raids?' then the answer would be a resounding 'A'!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And, lest we forget, <EM>not every monk is level 50 like us</EM>, and being a good group and  x2 tank is actually pretty good until you reach the level cap. Raiding is not so important to these players, and indeed plenty of level 50s will <EM>never </EM>get to tank the game's top mobs  - due <EM>not</EM> to being a Monk<EM>, but to not being in a powerful raiding guild</EM>. Should we design our entire class on the preferences of a small percentage of players who not only want to tank high-end raids but are also lucky enough to belong to a guild where this is even possible? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So if, as you've said many times, you're all about balance and fairness and have the best interests of our class at heart, consider the many non-57^^^^(x4)-tanking Monks out there, and whether  your personal vision of being a Monk will add to or detract from their enjoyment. Because, as I've repeated <EM>ad nauseum</EM>, tanking fans have always had other choices  - but for those who like the tanking /DPS hybrid there is really nowhere else to go. </FONT><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by annaspider on <SPAN class=date_text>07-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:47 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by annaspider on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> annaspider wrote: <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So if, as you've said many times, you're all about balance and fairness and have the best interests of our class at heart, consider the many non-57^^^^(x4)-tanking Monks out there, and whether  your personal vision of being a Monk will add to or detract from their enjoyment. Because, as I've repeated <EM>ad nauseum</EM>, tanking fans have always had other choices  - but for those who like the tanking /DPS hybrid there is really nowhere else to go. </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Point being whether or not they ever will tank 57+++ x4 epics, they need to be able to, because a fighters role in this game is to tank FIRST and everything else second.</P> <P>The degree of effectiveness in TANKING varies on subclass choice, but it shouldn't ever be impossible. </P> <P>Point being:  If a guardian isn't aviable, done.</P> <P>That should never happen.</P> <P>I don't pretend to want to be a hybrid class, because hybrid classes suck at everything.  There is always someone better than you at all of the things you can do that makes you a hybrid.</P> <P>While I do want the second highest fighter DPS, while I do like utility and buffs, I'm a fighter, and my role should be to tank.</P> <P>That's just how it works.</P> <P>End game raid tanking is what I post about the most, because its obviously the part of the game that is most broken in regards to monk tanking.  Everything in this game has a trickle down effect, and by being able to tank x4, you'd be able to tank the other stuff by default.</P> <P>The game works currently with all fighters being interchangeable on group mobs without ruining anyone's gameplay or making anyone useless, I fail to see why the entire game can't be tuned to work the same.</P> <P>Also, no matter your opinion, rerolling for me is not the answer.  If SOE comes out and says "if you want to be an end game raid tank roll a guardian" -- then I'll quit.  Its pretty simple.<BR></P>

[Owa]

<P>I know I have little hope of changing your mind, Gage - I'm not at all sure it's even physiologically possible.  :smileywink:</P> <P>I just think it's important to have more of a balance in this debate and for people to see that there at <EM>least</EM> two reasonable viewpoints on the matter. Oh, and to show people can disagree with you without being inflammatory or insulting.</P> <P>Ps. It'd be a shame if you quit.</P>

[Padi]

<DIV>I totally support what Anna is saying.</DIV> <P>The biggest draw back, or step back in MMORPG that I feel was made in EQ2 is having too many similar classes and not enough diversity.</P> <P>When I go to make a new char for fun, it is so hard to find anything fun to play because I've played X class, and Y class is practically the same, so why bother.</P> <P>In any given raid guild, there is only 1 main MT and a couple alternates when they aren't on.  Having 6 classes all geared to be MT just means there is a lot more dead weight in ever raiding guild, that or very few tanks will be able to get into a raiding guild.</P> <P>The one thing I've always felt was missing in this game is hybrids.  Hybrids are fun, able to do multiple functions, while not as powerful at any given area, they are fun and flexable.  We need to preserve what hybrids we have and not look to make this game into 4 classes.</P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Doug]

<DIV>Anna makes an incredible point here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>And, lest we forget, <EM>not every monk is level 50 like us</EM>, and being a good group and  x2 tank is actually pretty good until you reach the level cap. Raiding is not so important to these players, and indeed plenty of level 50s will <EM>never </EM>get to tank the game's top mobs  - due <EM>not</EM> to being a Monk<EM>, but to not being in a powerful raiding guild</EM>. Should we design our entire class on the preferences of a small percentage of players who not only want to tank high-end raids but are also lucky enough to belong to a guild where this is even possible?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>This really rings true to over 80% of the monk population.  If changing the monk purely for end-game is going to happen when EQ2 has been out for less than one year, that is going to truly be making decisions that benefit the vast minority.</DIV>

[i3ry]

That is a good point but there has to be some kind of change.  Just because the raiding monk may be a minority doesn't mean we should get totally jipped out of our tanking role.  Usually on any kind of x4 ^^^ if the MT goes down and I catch agro I'll be dead before I can even get Control Breathing up.  I mean, as a fighter I should be able to last longer than other archetypes in these kind of situations.  I'm not saying I want Brawlers to be considered full time MTs, but at least let us have enough dependability on epics to last long enough to back up tank or buy the raid some time. <div></div>

[SirensSong]

I was pretty much agreeing w/ Anna until this last post.  I don't want to be a tank tank.  If I wanted that, I'd be a Guardian.  However, like the above poster said, it would be nice to be able to take a hit or two from a big mob w/o being made into a monkish puddle on the ground w/in two seconds.  It's kind of embarrassing, really.  But I think no matter what changes are made w/ the combat revamp ppl are still going to have the same attitudes about monks for a long time; ppl come w/ preconceived notions, and those are very slow to change.

[Se]

<P>Been checking in on this thread for a few days now and have come to a few things.</P> <P>#1. Obviously we all know that the combat change is imminent so no matter what we say here isnt gonna change that.</P> <P>#2. Also quite obviously there are of course differences of opinion. There a quite a few monks (and Bruisers) on both sides of the coin. A bunch want to be a viable tank for every mob ( I agree with some very specific views on this), and on the flip side many would like to stay as is. At least no one wants to lose tanking and go straight DPS, (wouldn't that just suck)</P> <P>#3. My personal opinion (having no real bearing whatso ever) is as follows:</P> <P>      I love my monk the way it is and if we were to remain like we are now you would get no complaints from me. But that being said a few things do need to change to promote more balance. Our DPS does need to drop a few points. On raids I can usually maintain about 230-260 DPS depending on the mob. Most of the scouts we have can only punch out around 220 if they are lucky. This quite obviously is backwards, the scouts should be doing my damage and i should be doing theirs. I would even be happy if we got dropped to an average of 200 on raids any lower than that and we need some serious help in the taunting skills ot make up for the loss. Have no ideas of what is getting changed skill wise and such none of us at this time can make any sort of factual judgement on whats going to happen to us. Will we be able to tank almost everything? Yes. Although even though we still wont be the optimum MT for many encounters I can think of a few where and avoidance tank that can cure themslef would be a way way way better option that a plate tank that needs all kinda of buffing just for a chance to mitigate 50% of an aoe dot. Vox for instance. I am willing to lay down a few plat that we will infact be the best tank for vox type encounters. I have had the misfortune of getting agro from vox 4 or 5 times now and the only time i have died because of it was from the aoe. If I was able to hit the purge ailment button I would have lived every time. So needless to say I am concerned with the upcoming changes but I am also kinda excited about it. My only fear is thus. They have said that they are lowering our auto attack DPS. And we also know that some skills are being changed and moved around and I'll pretty much bet were getting some new stuff too. My fear is that our skill based DPS will drop far too drastically. I pray that the big 5 I use remain exactly as they are. Silent Fist, Lunging Mongoose(woudl be nice if it worked on epics but sure does rip adds to shreds don't it hehe), Charging Tiger, Icy Talon, Spitting Cobra. Long as I still got those 5 I'll be happy if i can tank too. On almost every raid me and my Bruiser partner lead the Add/DPS group. We are also at the top of the stifle/stun chain. If that changes without some sort of significant new ability we will in fact lose our place at the table. WE will be forced to go sit at the kids table while the grown ups go out and play. </P> <P>The other thing that concerns me is monk/bruiser fabled loot. I have personally led over 200 raids since getting level 50 and to this day we have gotten 1 drop that a monk or bruiser would use and that was the RGF. 90% of the fabled loot is plate and most of that isnt even that good. True we havent gotten into the contested mobs yet but we are very close to being up for those. I am just perplexed out how we get something for a plate tank almost every night we raid we get scout and mage masters all the time we get pali and sk masters like they are water. we even get decent mage loot on occasion. Not a single master for monk or bruiser has ever dropped for us. not a single fabled piece of LA gear has ever dropped for us. I find the current loot to be the source of the problem in my opinion. If the LA gear dropped as often as the plate gear i could garauntee you we wouldnt be having arguements about monks not being able to tank x4. In my opinion we already can tank x4 i have done it on occasion when mt and ma go down me or our bruiser gets the agro real quick. And let me tell ya he and I have single handedly saved the raid from wipes on a few occasions. I bleieve that if avoidance gets completely fixed that we would have no problem tanking every last mob in the game. I hear a lot of people talking about the hp difference between LA tanks and HA tanks. If you build your gear right there really isnt that much of a difference in unbuffed HP. The disparity lies in the fact that the HA tanks in one way or another get much better defensive and hp buffs. Even those can be evened out with potions and such. I have 1 tank that I use quite often as an add tank because of the hp he can get to. He can get up to about 10.3K hp. With that much hp he can take 4 or 5 adds with minimal healing. Allowing the healers to stay on the mt more often. At the same time though with max buffs/potions I can get my hp to 8257. Which in my opinion is pretty darn nice for a LA tank. Like I said earlier the disparity lies in the mitigation buffs and defensive stuff that the guard types gets. Not only with the current system can they achieve outrageous mitigation numbers but can jsut easily get more avoidance than i can. The highest i have ever gotten my avoid to is 93.4%. And let me tell ya I did not get hit. To get that number took quite an extensive amoutn of buffs from all 5 classes in my group. </P> <P>To sum all this stuff up though I look at it all like this. We know the changes are coming. WE don't knwo exactly what those changes are but we have some defiantes on a couple things. WE know avoidance is actually gonna work all the time now. We know that our mitigation id going to go even lower. We know we are losing some aout attack DPS. We know that plate tanks avoidance is going to plummet drastically. We know were gonna be able to purge unwanted spells. </P> <P>So now that we know all that we can make a few surmations about what it might be like. I see a couple different possibilites.</P> <P>A. HA tanks will be the beeter option for the uber hard hitters ie. 3k+ a shot mobs</P> <P>B. LA tanks will be the better option vs many caster class mobs</P> <P>C. HA tanks will be the better option on encounters with more than 4 mobs at a time.</P> <P>D. LA tanks will be the better option for groupings of 4 or less mobs that don't hit over 3k a shot</P> <P>E. HA and LA tanks will most likely share the tanking role on encounters in which adds spawn randomly or at specific points. Whereas the HA tank holds the named while 1 or 2 LA tanks smoke the adds needing minimal heals to do so and most likely self mending when needed.</P> <P>F. And this is the one that will very likely upset the HA tanks. Mobs with wicked AoE DoTs will most likely be best tanked by an LA tank</P> <P> </P> <P>Well thats all I got for now its 230am so if at any point in my ramblins it sounds incoherent or off the wall just disregard those parts hehe. </P>

[Lebr]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lebru1 wrote:<BR> <P>In other news "Vanguard" is on the horizon and from the people i know who checked it out at E3 sounds and looks amazing. Its from the crew who made Everquest.  So Everquest 2's days are numbered.  I cant remember any other game that had to do a revamp of thier combat system in the first year of its release before can anyone?  Not only is SoE  a ground breaking company theyre a class breaking one too. "Viva la DPS"</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Vanguard is still way out, and it doesn't look revolutionary at all.  It like EQ1 with EQ2 graphics so far.  From what I've seen and read.  I'll play it of course, but I'm not buying into the hype that its the next great thing, because supposedly every MMO is.<FONT color=#ffff00> I trust Brads vision over SoE at this point.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lebru1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Also what raids have you done ? because i cant tell that you have done any raids from your equipment. Im sure you wouldnt talk about somthing that you have no clue about.... would you ?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow.  Nice comment.  How about you take your attitude and post elsewhere, that isn't needed here.  No one is the almighty, all knowing monk, so just get over yourself.<FONT color=#ffff00>  New sheriff in town? Was a bit harsh on my part just annoys me when people make comments without an example.</FONT></P> <P>You want to be DPS (opinion), you think tanking is boring (opinion) you think Vanguard is super awesome!!!!! (opinion).<FONT color=#ffff00> Never said "Super Awesome" stated what people i know who saw the demos ect at E3. You follow? or should i type slower.</FONT></P> <P>Well guess what big guy, we all have opinions, and yours isn't better than anyone elses.<FONT color=#ffff00>  Never said mine was better, did i  ?</FONT></P> <P>Oh, and attacking gear is lame, who cares about gear. <FONT color=#ffff00>Well equipment just happens to be one of the very few ways to upgrade our avatars atm. Wasnt attacking Lioz's gear i was attacking  the fact he made comments on stuff he has yet to exp. He made his comments without any examples so i looked at his gear to see if he had done any of the raid content and guess what Mr Monk  (a) He is the most unlucky monk ever or (b) he hasnt  done any of the raid content yet. So he was making comments on somthing i said and has no clue.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I hate to single Gage out, 'cause he's only posting what he thinks is best, but almost the entire canon of his 4000+ posts is dedicated to getting Monks made more 'tanky' and less 'DPSy'. Clearly this unparalelled level of posting has not gone unnoticed - and now the idea that our class needs 'correcting' has seemingly been accepted as gospel. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Gage is clearly not the only one who feels this way -merely the most vocal - but I still can't help but feel the Brawler class is increasingly defined by a minority who really would be better suited to playing Warriors. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>It goes without saying, perhaps, that Gage - who clearly knows a thing or two about getting to level 50 - could easily have levelled both a Guardian and a Berserker in the time he's spent trying to change the Monk class.</FONT></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/shrug I get singled out a lot.  I guess its just something I'm going to have to get used to for being passionate about my class and the game and posting a lot.  As long as I play and post under Gage, its not ever going to go away.</P> <P>But if anyone here honestly thinks that my post count is the reason any changes are made, well... you're wrong.  It has nothing to do with me, my post count, or my wishes.<FONT color=#ffff00> (laugh) </FONT></P> <P>For every post I've made, others have made posts shouting out differing opinions, flaming me, my ideals, my dog, my mom, my water sprinkler... you get the point.<FONT color=#ffff00> (laugh)</FONT></P> <P>Jezekiel and Bonesbro have no where near my post count, and I can guarantee you that the things they say don't go unnoticed.  Its not how many times you say something, its what you say.<FONT color=#ffff00> True but the  you know what gets oiled 1st right?</FONT></P> <P>As for saying that my posts have turned the monk community into Gage clones (monks who want to tank I suppose) and became the gospel is stretching it a bit, I believe.  I have no way of making people support my opinion, they all have their own.<FONT color=#ffff00> (laugh) You here all week?</FONT></P> <P>Your last statement really irks me though.  WHY should I have to reroll though?  Just because of the misconception that the guardian/zerker classes are going to be the best raid tanks, because they were in other games?   They were broken in this game so far due to reasons of their own and buffs/combat issues.  I'm trying to avoid the "HOLY TRINITY" flavor of the month classes that EQ1 had, and you seem to be embracing it.  Weird.</P> <P>/shrug  I just don't understand that mentality.  Anna I guess wants us to be a hybrid, able to tank groups and x2, but not the hardest x4.  By having the ability to tank groups and x2 you are automatically regulating the monk class to inferior to scout dps.  Because scouts can't tank groups or x2.  Therefore in raids you'll be 100%..... NOT WANTED.  Because guardians will tank better and scouts will DPS better.  The solution to this I suppose is to give us one or two buffs or spells that the raid HAS TO HAVE.</P> <P>Then, we are buff bots, not monks.</P> <P>Is that what you want?</P> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>07-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:39 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>07-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:39 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Lioz i would like to make sure you understand i have nothing against you, i just dont like it when people make comments but give no examples. I should or could of said it in a better way but the heat of the moment got to me for that im sorry. /bow </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>  I would rather monks stayed the way theyre right now rather than being turned into a guardian if i wanted to be a guardian i would of selected one at character selection. I feel like SoE will mess the class up more if they try to make us better raid tanks. I only think that from SoE's track record, i could be wrong but i would rather not chance it. They did try to make monks raid type tanks in Eq thats a fact but couldnt do it. So you know what they did they raised monks Dps called us "light tanks" and was done with it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Have any of you ever played a game that had to revamp its combat system within the first year of its release? That dont help my confidence in SoE very much. But in the end nothing we say will matter SoE will do what they think is best, afterall were in thier  "new world"  for now.</FONT><BR></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Lebru1 on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[i3ry]

Alright, I haven't raided a ton in this game yet, I'll give you that.  But I have raided some.  I've done some Fire and Ice, epic Angler (who was kind enough to drop me a RGF last night), Anvilpaw, Drayek, etc... Maybe its just from being MA/SA a lot for my old EQ1 guild but think there is a ton of responsibility that comes with being a raid MT, unless the encounters are just totally trivial to your guild.  I'll actually agree with you about MTing being boring if you're just facing a single mob, but when you throw in adds and different encounters and other special things it shakes things up and you need to be aware of what's going on and react appropriately and quickly. <div></div>

[Lebr]

<P>/bow</P> <P>Thats why i used Zalak as an example because Main tank sets up like all other fights in this game. While "adds groups" set up to make sure no adds get through to the healers and main tank.  If you are doin adds you get to move around think alittle ect, but the main tank does  what he does with everyfight in this game.</P> <P>Pulls mob using group buffs, taunts ect then turns off auto attack and rinse repeat over and over and over.... ZzzzzzzZzzz</P> <P>The real fun is being able to do damage and off tank alittle, dont get me wrong im sure some people like the mind numbing task of being Main Tank,  take Gaige for example he appears to like it.  I find it well boring as hell but thats just me besides using your group buffs, taunts you just stand there watching your hp's go up and down hoping the healers dont let you die. Thats fun for Gaige but its a snorefest for me. </P> <P>So with revamp they will make us beable to purge harmful effects, So you will get one more button to push yipee</P> <P>. </P> <P>Im just hoping they dont screw up our class even more with the changes, and if youve played Eq1 you know thier track record when it comes to changes. The fact theyre even having to do a combat revamp within the first year of release is  weak beyond belief.  That tells us we have been payning them to test thier game this whole time. I know these games are subject to change but a whole combat revamp ??  within the first year of release comon now.</P> <P>SoE " The get more for less company" Dont fall for thier smoke screens they will promise us everything and give us nothing count on it.  Im just [Removed for Content] because they let us build our characters all this time, and we dont even know what were gonna be now. Remember they said all fighters will tank ect ect  so we dont have anyone that works for them on our side. Will get a post by one of them saying "How this game means this or that to them and how they care" i just want them to prove it.</P> <P>Sorry for venting it just irks me when i add up the money and time put into this game.</P>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SirensSong wrote:<BR> I was pretty much agreeing w/ Anna until this last post.  I don't want to be a tank tank.  If I wanted that, I'd be a Guardian. <FONT color=#ff3333> However, like the above poster said, it would be nice to be able to take a hit or two from a big mob w/o being made into a monkish puddle on the ground w/in two seconds</FONT>.  It's kind of embarrassing, really.  But I think no matter what changes are made w/ the combat revamp ppl are still going to have the same attitudes about monks for a long time; ppl come w/ preconceived notions, and those are very slow to change.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Didn't want to taint this thread , as i started it and wanted unbiased opinions , But i just had to comment on the red above , as it was commented on by two people.</P> <P>In a raid Situation , if the MT goes down , whoever is secondary tank , goes down quick (when i am it anyway) , because all the main buffing/focusing , is on MT</P> <P>Doesn't mean you are squishy tanks , cos u get wiped as second tank ,  all second tanks whether guardian , monk or zerker can get as easily wiped in 2/3 seconds . I guess you need healers / buffers to switch to you PDQ , then maybe would be a different scenario ??</P>

[Lebr]

<DIV>The way the game is right now the  MainTank uses alot of potions also to help.  So they got group buffs on them and  potion buffs and when they die nine outta ten times the healers are next on the hate list. So  not alot you can do if noone is around to heal you.  Second tank needs to be fully buffed w/ potions ect and using all group buffs + taunts to try and be high on the hate list.  So what people do is just call it a wipe if maintank dies run mobs off to reset them.  Then start over theres just no challenge to it. Its not just the players that are broken its all the encounters also. ie We have been paying to test Eq2 all along.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

Your MT uses a lot of potions in raids?

[Lebr]

Well i guess i shouldnt  say alot but he uses a couple. <p>Message Edited by Lebru1 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:24 PM</span>

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV> <P>Sometimes I despair about reading this class board, but I am really happy to see the discussion soldiers on. The monk role debate is always good for a few minutes of serious mind-bending. Where do we fit in? Who will want me? Why am I here? Will I be respected for my role? Who will be the next person to claim I chose the wrong class? Classic.</P> <P>Anyway enough witticisms. I have been away from the game for many weeks, and when I left this same discussion was on the table. In this thread I see many posts that give me hope that ,finally, people on both sides are slowly becoming more open minded to the ideas of the other side. I wanted to step in and make a post that helps to bridge the gap even further.  Since I left the game for at least a month I have two completely different sets of experiences with our class.<BR></P> <P>#1</P> <P>Before I took a break from the game our guild was raiding nightly, we would often join a friendly guild on their raids or manage to do content with only our own 12 lvl 50 members. With two groups we could defeat several of the epic instances, and with our friends filling up to 4 groups we could do practically anything we knew how to find and kill.</P> <P>At the time our MT was a very well equiped zerk, he played every night. I was never the MT, I never wanted to be the MT. Even on things I could safely tank, it was better for the guild if I played a DPS role. Even if I could have competed with the zerk in tank ability, he could not have competed with me in DPS. When we raided, it was always for the good of the guild, not for my ego. I was fully on the side of protecting monks DPS and giving us more utility. Those abilities would have benefited my friends more</P> <P> </P> <P>#2</P> <P>I took nearly a month away from the game. In that time the guild had a mild drama and lost a few members. The only damaging loss was our 2 lvl 50 plate tanks. When I returned I found that I was the only lvl 50 fighter. Other members of the guild had been losing interest in playing, due mainly to the fact that they havent been able to organize to do anything without depending on someone else's tank. Enter the monk. </P> <P>With limited numbers logging in at odd times, we can only start getting interest back by doing things as often as possible. Starting from the bottom rung again is fine, Gx2s, instances with names, etc. Anything to drum up drops and fun. Sadly, this has been a challenge, I just cant seem to survive challenging encounters without a perfect group setup. Gx2 enemies we could kill with 4-5 people when using our old MT, now take at least 7 or more with the right mix of healers. Without 3 strong healers, some things are just out of reach. Unfortunately I wasnt lucky enough to get large amounts of armor drops before I left. I have all rare crafted, prismatic, a few interesing pieces. Now I am dreaming of more tank abilities, I feel helpless, I want to be the best I can to help my guild. </P> <P> </P> <P>So there you have it. One person, falling on two opposite sides of the same coin. Realistically I cant push 100% for better tank abilities. In this post by Moor he states that Guardians will still be the most often prefered tanks.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29576#M29576" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29576#M29576</A></P> <P>This means that any greater tanking abilities I gain will be wasted once some of our low level guardians reach 50 and get up to speed on gear and knowledge of mobs. But, at the moment I feel the pain of the tank desiring monks.</P> <P>With the upcoming changes already in beta most of the discussion is likely moot. Anything they do now is just to fix how things work, not drastically change the vision. Still our discussions could have some effect on the outcome. I like some of the ideas I have seen tosed around that attempt to resolve the desires of both sides of the issue. Increasing the effects of our offensive and defensive stances so we are situational is a great idea I saw earlier, and I hope it can be explored. </P> <P>The mentioned ability of monks to remove stat effects I am dubious about. If it is self only and tied to our mend line it will be next to useless with the 5 min recast ( similar to mend itself imho- start chant, "Lower mend timer, Lower mend timer. Hell no we wont go!"&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. If it is group oriented and designed with a good recast, it would be at most situationally useful. Still nice, if it is not our only reason for living.</P> <P>enough for now</P> <P>Az</P></DIV>

[bonesbro]

<DIV>Excellent post Azazel.  You have perfectly illustrated our main issues <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>