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[Gaige]

<DIV>So MG made a post in another thread I was participating in, and I figured some of you guys don't read all the threads/forums I do so I'd share it here, since it does have some things to do with our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>Fighters are tanks. They don't all tank the same, and tanking isn't all they do, but that doesn't change the core role all fighters share. While some might envision a different approach, that role isn't going to go away just because some might prefer a different take on certain classes.</P> <P>The combat revamp isn't just a changing of balance numbers; it is a reevaluation of abilities. For fighters, this means some expanded spell lines, some shifting around of abilities from one subclass to another, and changes to the way defensive buffs work.</P> <P>Right now, guardians are far and away the best tank due to a combination of their buff stacking and the way defensive buffs are seen in combat rolls. Both those aspects are changing. Think of the guardian's abilities as being spread around a bit to the other fighter classes.</P> <P>In no particular order (other than pairing subclasses of the same class), here are a few (but not all) of the ways tanks will be distinguished from one another after the changes take effect. </P> <UL> <LI>Guardians will have the greatest capability to grant their defense to others. They also have a greater number of taunts.</LI> <LI>Berserkers will do more damage than guardians, especially when tanking. While they also have taunts, part of their taunting comes from the damage they do.</LI> <LI>Paladins have heals and a nice array of taunts.</LI> <LI>Shadowknights have lifetaps and higher damage than paladins.</LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Monks excel in avoidance, and their ability to purge negative spell effects is being expanded.</FONT></LI> <LI>Bruisers mitigate a bit better and do more damage than monks, which again is the basis for part of their taunting ability.</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>All fighters will have useful defensive and offensive stances that they can choose depending on their role in the group. Additionally, each fighter will gain a significant resistance to a particular type of damage, which should make different classes be desirable under certain situations.</FONT></P> <P>Again, this isn't about taking away tanking from guardians. I suspect after the revamp, in a lot of raid situations you'd still want a guardian as main tank. However, the changes should give more flexibility to other tank classes, and give situational advantages to each. Personally, I'm looking forward to that.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Thoughts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it sounds pretty good on paper so far, the little bit he gave info on at least.  I never imagined we'd be an overall better tank than the guardians, but it does sound like SOE listened to a lot of the threads being posted about this since release, and various ways to maybe help even it out a little w/o nerfing any of the fighters into the ground.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course we'll have to see how this kind of stuff actually plays out on test, but I just wanted to make sure you guys saw this, and commented on it if you felt the need.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Goodnight <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P><FONT color=#66cc99>It all sounds great except for the guaridans getting superiour taunting ability. If that's the case then it's no beno.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc99>Taunting is the main purpose of a fighter, and if that varries, then some will be continually better at their core roll, just as if some healers are beter at direct healing it skews the healing balance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc99>Just my opinion on the matter, imo aggro management should be = across the whole spectrum while the way you take/ dish out a little of the damage should varry considerably.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc99>It is a good step in the right direction, thanks Gage!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc99>.....and btw, what did you think about my mutliple tanking formation idea? here is an exact copy in [ ]</FONT></P> <P align=left>[ [ The only problem with the "all fighters are tanks rule" (which i believe to be the truth) is, in most instances, tanking wont stack like the other archetypes' main roles.</P> <P align=left>How to do this? Allow 2-6 fighters to divide any incoming direct (physical or spell) damage between them, then apply migitgation and voicance on the divided ammount. Pool all aggro from the teamed up fighters into Formation_of_fighters001 for mob's hate list. AOE attacks on the fighters would apply as normal, but any direct attack or spell is disperse ammong them, mkaing the task of healing easyer to accomplish.</P> <P align=left>That is how you dispose of fighter's DPS valued mind-sets who are trying to push their dps 2ndairy role (like brawlers) above their tanking role, and even above the primary role of some of the archeytpes like scouts and mages (enchanter and bards' primariy roles are damage, secondairy role is increasing everyone elses primary and seconary roles thoughbuffs, while lowering  opponant's primary and seconadairy roles).</P> <DIV>If fighters can group-tank if you will, this aliviateds the need for them to try to "become" a DPS class, since they can all effectively tank together. Granted some could have more offense, like brawlers, and to slightly lesser effect, SK and berserkers, can still have decient damage rankings compairible to other fighters without sacrificing their taning ability, but without gaiing to it either. It's like they chose +10% to their offensive power of their class insted of taking +10% to their defensive power, they didnt loose anythign from their class, they just didnt improve in one area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one would find the idea of a Monk and Guardian double team takning would be mutualy beneficial. If monk on a rare chance missed a Avoidance roll, they are only taking 1/2 the punishment they woudl have normal taken had they been solo tanking it, and the Guardian would be taken 1/2 the damage he would normaly be taking, but not avoiding much, and having a constant stream of lower damage blows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a mob hit for 1000 damage, they would each contend with only 500 damage a pice. If Guaridan has 60 mitigation, and 25% avoid, he will probly take about 200 damage or so, easily covered by a reactive heal. Monk will have 75% avoidance chance, with about 30% mitigation from light armor. He will most likely avoid this attack, but every so offten he wont, and will take about 350 damage, also about covered by a single reactive, and easily completely covered by a shaman's ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means an attack that would have done 400 damage to the guaridan, or possibly 700 damage to the Monk, could only do a mox of 550 to them both, and 3/4ths of the time will only do 200 damage. If a Templar's reactive heal healed 300 each hit for 4 times (i have no idea about the actualy numbers) then the warrior would be taking 100 damage every hit if doing it solo, and monk would take 400 damage each hit solo with reactive heal, they both force the templar to use a less effecant direct heal to keep them going, but if duo tanking this mob, the templar's reactive heal can cover the guaridan completely and only leave 50 damage for the monk to take each time they miss an avoid. (and monk can mend so that makes up for that)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if using differnet healers, like a shaman with their ward on the monk (best way to heal them) and cleric using reactive on the guaridan, and throw in a druid for regenration and a crusader for taking a bit of any magical damage(shadowknight or palladin) to tripple tank with guaridan and monk, you would havea  very very strong x2 raid defense group, then in other group, if you could find one class of each of the 3 scout and mage classes, you would have an awsomeraid force for x2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you had one of every sub-class for a 24 person raid (funny hu, 24 sub-classes AND 24 spots ina  raid...hmmm<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> ) you *should* imo have one of the stringest made raids in the game, if they allow stacking of certain key class abilities (like allowing two regenerations to stack, one from Warden and one from Fury) and with group tanking, the 6 fighters wouldbecome the ultimite defense , along wiht the ultimant healing variety to keep them all alive, and the 2 offensive groups will have enough varaity that they will beable to cripple the mob's defenses in multiple ways, and have botha magical and physical offense of great perportions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMO there needs to be a noticable incease in effectivnes sof stacking a variety of sub-classes over 6 of the same subclasses. a group with Conjuror Necromancer , illusionist, coercer, wizard and warlock needs to beable to greatly outdamage a group of 6 warlocks, and it needs to be more efficant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While the advantages of having the royal flush raid (24 different subclasses) need to be noticable, raids shouldnt be made with the mindset that this set up will allways be avalible. If for some reasiona  raid has 5 warlocks and a coercer, they still need to be adequet, just not as good as the diverse raid, which would be a judgment call on the devs part.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does anyone not like this up-to-6 fighter damage dividing idea that alows fighters to all play the role of the defender at the same time? Or does anyone not like the idea that i diverse raid should have a overall better net benefit than a raid with mutiples of same classes? Please reply on these ideas</DIV> <DIV>(would love to get your opinons Gage)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>PS: please no one-liner remarks that you hate/love these ideas, explain why you hate/like it in detail, it's the only eay to make these ideas better! List pros and cons, and your feelings based upon facts.  ] ]</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#66cccc>Toodles!</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 AM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P><FONT color=#66cc99>.....and here is my second post on this multi-tanking subject you may or may not find interesting :</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>[ [    Warriors, given the highest physical mitigation, are best suited to tank mobs that attack like a Scout, aka very high spike damage physical attacks, that would almost instantly kill any tank that doesnt ahve warrior level mitigation. This mobs attacks cant be avoided, and pierce though wards (aka shaman's wards wont be as effective in this fight)</P> <P>Crusaders, with their knowledge of the magical relm, have learned how to use magic and faith (be it faithfully good, or delightfuly twisted evil) to protect them from the arcane elemental and noxious forces of magic. They have learned to errect (hey! no snickering in the back row! i herd that, you pervert!) magical wards around themselves that absorb the brunt of a magical attack, or give them a chance to resist it all together. They have about 75% of the mitigation of a warrior, so they arnt the best at mitigation but they can suffice to take a few good physical nlows as well, but their magical defenses is where they truely shine!</P> <P>Brawlers, ever agile and swift, using their calm and centered minds and bodies, deftly avoid rampaging Fighter styled mobs, who use x10 combo attacks, that, when avoided once, the succedding blows all miss. If not avoided, each blow in this combo grows in stregth and power, and by the 10th blow, will have killed even the strongest of fighters. These blows void the target's armor, so mitigation is worthless, and if the blows are not avoided, any warrior or crusader would surely fall in one long combo. Brawlers otoh, would have a about 75% avoidance, giving them about a 75% chance to dodge one of these blows, and a garentied dodge on atleast the 6th blow, making them the best tanks.</P> <P>The both of each classes sub-classes could easily perform on their classes "ideal" mob essentialy the same, Berserker and Guaridan would both have enough mitigation to take the brunt of the deadly strikes, both crusaders withstand spells, noxious/mental is SK only and elemental/divine is Palladin only, and both brawlers will avoid equilly.</P> <P>They can all tank, each having their "optimal" mob.</P> <P> </P> <P>But when tanking a raid mob, why go it alone? If you have extra fighters in a raid what would you do with them? </P> <P>Have them disgracfully wack at the mob's butt? Thats like asking a Priest to nuke more! Leave the [Removed for Content] pokeing to scouts i say, and come on, we ALL know Swashbucklers are better hunters of "tail" than any blood-drenched Berserker <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>My idea is to allow 2-6 fighters to divide any incoming direct damage ammong themselves evenly. Then they woudl each take that damage though their mitigation and avoidance. How does this help? It allows priests to use their special heals (the most efficant heals they have) more than their direct heals (used to keep tank alive when the specials are becoming over run, less effecant) to take less damage at one time, so regenrations and wards and reactives only have to deal with a moderate damage attack on multiple people rather than one person reciving a heavy load all at once.</P> <P>If a mob hit a Berserker with 65% mitigation with a 10,000 attack. That would hit the Berserker for 3,500. That is alot of damage to heal, and a reactive, ward, and regenration even together couldnt cover that, so the priests would have to spam direct heals to keep this warrior alive. Direct heals are what drain healer power.</P> <P>Now, imagine if you had each of the 6 subclasses of fighters all tanking.</P> <P>Same 10,000 damage, each tank takes 1/6 of this, which is 1667</P> <P>Guardian has about 70% mitigation, wont have a chance of avoiding a raid mob- 500 damage</P> <P>Berserker has about 65% mitigation, wont have chance of avoiding a raid mob, with exception of Riposteing with specific self buff- 583 damage</P> <P>Paladin has about 55% mitigation, wont have a chance of avoiding a raid mob, can heal themselves to make up for less mitigation, and ward vs magic,elemental, and divine-750 damage minus how ever much a paladin can heal at level 50. (if this was spell damage paladin would come out alot better)</P> <P>Shadownight has about 55% mitigation, wont have a chance of avoiding a raid mob, can heal themselves (life taps) to make up for less mitigation, and ward vs magic,noxious, and mental- 750 damage minus however much a SK can life tap at 50 (post Combat update as this skill will hopefully get a boost)</P> <P>Monk has about 30% mitigation, depending upon their avoidance 50-75% chance- 1166 if not dodged</P> <P>Bruiser has about 30% mitigation-depending upon their avoidance 50-75% chance- 1166 if not dodged</P> <P>Im not certain, but i think wards can absorb about 1500 damage, i think reactives do about 500 or so with each hit (im not sure i have never actually seen a high end cleric's spell list with actualy numbers) 3 times, and i think regen is 250 every 4 seconds for 30 seconds(2000 total)... atleast thats my guess... if anyone could provide real nubers that would help alot, even though they are gona change with combat revamp.</P> <P>Anyway, a Ward should be strong enough to atleast block 1 hits for a brawler completely and have a little left over to take off about 1/2 of another attack, and a regeneration from a druid can easily cover this, and a reactive should beable to provide about 4 heals that can keep up with mitigation tanks or come close enough that a druid's regeneration can take the overflow. </P> <P>Regen is obviously the one that complements both wards and reactives, keeping druids busy as well. If brawler gets unlucky and gets hit 2 times right after getting a Ward from the shaman, and the shaman has to wait for the recast timer, the Druid's regen would beable to pick up the damage once the second ward is cast, and this is where regen truely shines, it works underneath the wards. If a brawler is unluckyenough to get hit 3 times in a row for a total for 3500, that leaves a hefty 2000 damage left to be healed, but, if you will notice, thats exactly how much regeneration heals in 30 seconds. By keeping a ward on this monk, by the time the next ward brakes, the 2k damage would be healed.</P> <P>By combining tanking and special heals for the most efficant defense, your defense group or groups give the offensive groups time to get that critter dead. Building a strong defense that requires cooperation should be a crittical part of any raid. </P> <P>From my understanding, that is not the current case in very high end raiding. </P> <P>From what i have observed, you have one fighter (Guardian or in some cases a Paladin) stand in front of a ginormous x4 mob while entire raid force stands at it's back. In this Juggernaut's group you have 5 classes that can "buff" the raid tank as best as possible, wether it's resists or simply hp/deffense/avoidance. In the other three group, you might have 1 healer in each, but usualy the healers are buffing in MT group, then you have one enchanter buffing entire raid with breeze's upgrade, and possibly a bard thrown in the MT group for buffing and power regen for the healers. Other than that, DPS classes only.</P> <P>Where can you insert a fighter into this current formula? 1 spot, it's either Main-tank or NO tank. Sure, there are some fighters that will try to assume the roll of a damage class, but they will soon be out of a job when fighters who may have a secondary roll of damage dealer (brawlers, SK, Berserker) will be lowered to a possiton under that of any mage or scout (their PRIMARY function is damage)</P> <P>So, if fighters wont beable to stack their tanking, and if their secondairy roles cant surpass the primary abilities of other archetypes, they are up a creek when it comes to raiding. Imagine if you will, my metaphic image i shall paint for you:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><warning, slightly vulger metaphore ment for humor, PG14 rating of humor within></FONT></P> <P>The lucky main tank-Fighter is the starting quarterback of a state-winning foot ball team (one guy....getting all the action<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif" width=16 border=0> ), everyone loves him, especialy the ladies (healers in this case) and shower him with gifts! (item drops that would be given to MT so he can be even more of a super juggernaut)</P> <P>But his buddies are left high and dry sitting home playing eq2 <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif" width=16 border=0>, or they can choose (i hope this isnt too innaproprate for these forms) to get the "leftovers" (in exchange for a more vulger term, SSeconds) of the basket ball and cricket players(scouts and mages). Major bummer <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>Translateion: If only one fighter gets the glory of being the MT, the others are left to fill a role that has allready been taken, if you will<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>Wow...how far of a stretch was that lol... describing Everquest2 Tank problems with a metaphoric example full of sexual enuendos AND sports refrenses! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> Yeh, i went there <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>Anyway, thoughs are my views on the solotairy fighter situation. Even if they dont want to add a multi-tanking system, they are going to do something for fighters for raids and groups, or else we will have 1/4 of the classes rendered usless in most situations, and a largely 1/3 of all server population (atleast on most servers fightetrs are a large majority) will reroll or leave the game probly.</P> <P>Please reply with some good ideas or well thought out rebuttles to my ideas.....and if you liked my metaphore <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>Toodles! ] ]</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc99>Well, hope you dont mind reading all that, i put a lot of effort into my posting tonight and i hope you like or can discredit my ideas as you see fit masta monk!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc99>Toodles!</FONT></P>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>Yeah I didnt read all that, but I like the sounds of Whats in the first post. If we all tank as good as guardians and hold aggro, then who wants to be a guardian with lowest DPS? Then they gonna have a problem. I think guardians should be the best tanks for epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm eager just to get a peak of the combat update, our extenstion of elements we can purge, yum. The changes in our abilities etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm also eager to see if anything else combat wise will be fixed. In my opinion, dual wields of equal quality should be better then a 2her, since you have to get two nice weapons. But we all know the ugly [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] greatflail way out damages them in any combination.<BR><BR>XoXo</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:42 AM</span>

[Gaige]

Great Flails > *

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>pwwweeeeaasseee reply Mr Gage, i want your expert opinion on my idea lol.... if not now when your probly sleepy, maby later then :smileytongue:</P> <P>I have never seen a bad post from you and as a youngling looking for his master's approval..... oh all right ill cut the crap, i just wana know what you think dude :smileywink:</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Dandeli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> <P>pwwweeeeaasseee reply Mr Gage, i want your expert opinion on my idea lol.... if not now when your probly sleepy, maby later then :smileytongue:</P> <P>I have never seen a bad post from you and as a youngling looking for his master's approval..... oh all right ill cut the crap, i just wana know what you think dude :smileywink:</P> <P>Toodles!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Could you sum it up in a much smalle paragraph?

[Grabaan]

I'm looking forward to the changes. I don't want to be a guardian or anything else, I want to be a monk. And these changes (at least what we see so far) make me more monkly, and that is fine by me. Whatever happens, I'm committed to making it work, and playing the way I always have. I rolled a fighter/monk to be a tank, and I look forward to potentially being able to tank more than just Dryak/Angler etc. <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>2-6 fighters able to form a formation (becoming on unit in aggro and dividing any incoming direct physical or spell damage)</P> <P>10000 damage attack is 1667 per tank if divided by 6. they apply each tanks mitigation and avoidance. In the end it allows priests to use their special heals more than their direct heal spaming. So the net affect is healers healing more on a wider spred basis rather then "power dumping" direct heals at one tank. It makes raid-defense more of a group effort rather than 1 guardian and 5 clerics or something like that. With 6 fighters and 6 priests, you should beable to hold an encounter for a long time.</P> <P>On mobs hate list, any hate generated by a fighter in this formation is sent to formation_of_fighters001 on the mobs hate list insted of the specific fighter. Pooling the hate makes it easier for many tanks to gain and keep aggro, allowing any other DPS or healer to do their job without restraint for taking aggro.</P> <P>Theoreticaly the healers if there is enough coordination between them, can keep them all 6 tanks going by combining their special heals differently for each tank, regen+reactive for mitigation tank and regen + ward for avoidance tank. Example i used had them at 1500 hp ward, 500 reactive x3, 250 regeneration for a 30 second duration (2000 heal in a long time span, mostly wont allways heal to full value becuase if tank is Fulhp it waistes a tic)</P> <P>Each healing complements eachother for their tanks, making a very efficant healing system, and in raids, efficancy should be a key factor for surviving a long hard fight.</P> <P>Well, thats the best condensingi could do, if you find this interesting i would urge you to read my post in full, it's long but much more detailed, explaining how much the heals might do (i didnt have exact numbers for level 50 spells, realy need some if any level 50 shaman, cleric, or druid could pervide, list the quality to please (app, adept,master)</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Monks excel in removing negative effects?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>umm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since when? The only spell I can think of that removes any types of harmful effects is that low level fighter spell that removes mental effects.. uhh Indomitable Will I think it's called. Never once have I ever actually found any use for it. ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do like the aspect of giving certain classes natural resistances to certain types of attacks though.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Monks excel in removing negative effects?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>umm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since when? The only spell I can think of that removes any types of harmful effects is that low level fighter spell that removes mental effects.. uhh Indomitable Will I think it's called. Never once have I ever actually found any use for it. ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do like the aspect of giving certain classes natural resistances to certain types of attacks though.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Those things are coming after the combat changes, and you are right, currently we only have Indomitable Will, which works kind of wierd.<BR>

[Almeric_CoS]

<DIV>Ok good I'm not crazy.  I was just about to start a post about the same quote, also asking at what point we ever excelled in removing any negative effects from us?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think I used Indomitable Will once.....maybe there's some nice uses for it, but I haven't found them yet.</DIV>

[Siberia2]

Along with the part saying each fighter will be resistent to a certain damage type.. hmm.. I've always though Monks should be a bit more resistent to magic.. but poison/disease work, too.. y'know, the whole "Perfect Body" thing <span>:smileytongue:</span>.. As far as purging goes.. maybe they are fixing Lu'Sun's Healing touch <span>:smileytongue:</span>.. <div></div>

[Desulto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Almeric wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok good I'm not crazy.  I was just about to start a post about the same quote, also asking at what point we ever excelled in removing any negative effects from us?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think I used Indomitable Will once.....maybe there's some nice uses for it, but I haven't found them yet.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dazzling traps. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ganjookie]

Thanks for this Gage "Bruisers mitigate a bit better and do more damage than monks, which again is the basis for part of their taunting ability." <div></div>

[OgApostrap]

<DIV>Eh.. so they are making bruisers the more defensive and more damaging brawler? Or will the avoidance be better? I mean, being able to remove spell effects might be nice, but if you have an active healer and such removing them.. we dont really gain anything from it.... unless we also resist them better.</DIV>

[Almeric_CoS]

<DIV>Not having done any major EQ2 raiding yet, I have no concrete examples, but I can think of a good EQ1 parable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's say you're taking a pack of EQ2 characters off to raid EQ1's Trakanon.  He pops an AE that doesn't just do 2k damage, but it also eats you alive for many ticks after that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Bruiser may be a slightly better choice for a tank on the raid, but most of the time that post will still go to a plate tank because they're more stable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the Monk and the Bruiser are both on DPS duty.  The Bruiser is doing a little more damage per hit, but he'll die from the AE poison long before me, because I'm a monk and I can purge the DOT effect.  Sure healers could save the Bruiser, but they're also busy healing the tank AND trying to cure everyone else.  Better to be self-reliant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that's the sort of direction Monks are going, I'm good with that.</DIV>

[Xita]

<P>if they make us be able to handle magic better i am all for that. I used indmintable will a few times when fighting coercer mobs, keeping up plodding tortoise and what not just in case you get stifled is kind of a pain, only time i have those loaded is when i know i am going to be fighitng many coercers...</P> <P>let me expunge elemental effects, i'll be very happy!</P> <P> </P>

[Rohlstu]

<P>The changes are all moot in my opinion because we are still going to be capped as far as how much avoidance we will have.  We will still probably be capped or handicapped because a lot of skill benefits still won't stack.  Stat changes are going to play havoc when it all goes to live...should we be agi based or str based?</P> <P>I don't want to sound too negative on it because I am hoping that it will be a positive step for us.</P>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Siberia275 wrote:<BR>Along with the part saying each fighter will be resistent to a certain damage type.. hmm.. I've always though Monks should be a bit more resistent to magic.. but poison/disease work, too.. y'know, the whole "Perfect Body" thing <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN>.. As far as purging goes.. maybe they are fixing Lu'Sun's Healing touch <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN>..<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well in EQlive they gave monks an innate Heat and Cold resistance boost, but I'd rather have monks become more physically resistant to more critical things like Crushing and Slashing.</DIV>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Siberia275 wrote:<BR>Along with the part saying each fighter will be resistent to a certain damage type.. hmm.. I've always though Monks should be a bit more resistent to magic.. but poison/disease work, too.. y'know, the whole "Perfect Body" thing <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN>.. As far as purging goes.. maybe they are fixing Lu'Sun's Healing touch <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN>..<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well in EQlive they gave monks an innate Heat and Cold resistance boost, but I'd rather have monks become more physically resistant to more critical things like Crushing and Slashing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, increased/built-in physical mitigation to represent body-hardening exercises <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Punched your makiwara or done some tso-sao lately?

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Almeric wrote: <div> </div> <div>I think I used Indomitable Will once.....maybe there's some nice uses for it, but I haven't found them yet.</div><hr></blockquote> I still have a macro that fires that off and then does a FD...  useful for confusing poor healers to do that as a mob drops then say in group chat "what the ---- just hit me?" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Or leap off cliffs in front of newbies and fire the combo off..</span><div></div>

[bonesbro]

IW is pretty useful in Splitpaw.  Lots of nasty enchanter type mobs down there.  My primary use is still to dispell dazzling trap then run around the group in circles making fun of them though. <div></div>

[Cuz]

<P>I wonder if they'll change the way that imbued items work? Currently my armor doesn't get activated much. I'd like to see one of two things: Scale the % with evasion, similar to weapons scaling procs Vs speed, or the other option would be to just make it a flat % for all attacks irregardless of hit or miss. I know it's a bit farfetch for "combat revamp" but I'm just curious.</P> <DIV>Then again it might be this way and I've conditioned myself to see untruths. :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <P>I wonder if they'll change the way that imbued items work? Currently my armor doesn't get activated much. I'd like to see one of two things: Scale the % with evasion, similar to weapons scaling procs Vs speed, or the other option would be to just make it a flat % for all attacks irregardless of hit or miss. I know it's a bit farfetch for "combat revamp" but I'm just curious.</P> <DIV>Then again it might be this way and I've conditioned myself to see untruths. :smileytongue:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought that weapon procs are based off a defined percentage regardless of the weapon you're using right now.</P> <P> </P> <P>My Gleaming Strikes on all the weapons for all my characters all give me a 5% chance of it procing, including with my berzerker and his 2.4 delay weapons.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:22 PM</span>

[bonesbro]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <P>I wonder if they'll change the way that imbued items work? Currently my armor doesn't get activated much. I'd like to see one of two things: Scale the % with evasion, similar to weapons scaling procs Vs speed, or the other option would be to just make it a flat % for all attacks irregardless of hit or miss. I know it's a bit farfetch for "combat revamp" but I'm just curious.</P> <DIV>Then again it might be this way and I've conditioned myself to see untruths. :smileytongue:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought that weapon procs are based off a defined percentage regardless of the weapon you're using right now.</P> <P> </P> <P>My Gleaming Strikes on all the weapons for all my characters all give me a 5% chance of it procing, including with my berzerker and his 2.4 delay weapons.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <SPAN class=date_text>07-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, he's talking about the reverse procs on armor, like the heal effect on an imbued breastplate.  We get hit less, because we're avoidance tanks, so our reverse procs fire less often.</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>true. I seem to have fair luck with that aspect though. My Lambent Imbued goes off a lot, but I'm not getting hit all that much either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But he also commented on how weapon procs go off more if your weapons are slower.</DIV>

[HappyNin]

My problem with Monks as they are now is this... We're supposed to be masters of avoidance, yet our large avoidance % only applies to the mob we're actively tanking, so, if we're forced to tank a group of mobs at once, we're avoiding (maybe) 80% of the attacks from one mob while getting smacked around like a little schoolgirl by every other mob in the group.  Being the masters of our surroundings that we are, our avoidance bonuses should apply to every mob swinging at our fragile little behinds, whether in front of us, beside us or behind us.  That in my opinion would make up for our lack of mitigation and make the subclass a more desireable tank overall.  I don't need to be able to cure arcane, poison or disease ailments (although it would be nice)  I just need to be able to tank a group of mobs without getting slapped around through the entire encounter.  Just my two pennies.

[Galeo1]

<P>I'm pretty excited about these changes.</P> <P>I hope they bring our hit points in line with the other fighters.</P> <P> </P> <P>Rock</P>

[bonesbro]

<span><blockquote><hr>HappyNinja wrote:My problem with Monks as they are now is this... We're supposed to be masters of avoidance, yet our large avoidance % only applies to the mob we're actively tanking, so, if we're forced to tank a group of mobs at once, we're avoiding (maybe) 80% of the attacks from one mob while getting smacked around like a little schoolgirl by every other mob in the group.  Being the masters of our surroundings that we are, our avoidance bonuses should apply to every mob swinging at our fragile little behinds, whether in front of us, beside us or behind us.  That in my opinion would make up for our lack of mitigation and make the subclass a more desireable tank overall.  I don't need to be able to cure arcane, poison or disease ailments (although it would be nice)  I just need to be able to tank a group of mobs without getting slapped around through the entire encounter.  Just my two pennies. <hr></blockquote> I'm ok with this.  It's part of what makes us tank differently than a mitigation tank.  Going to an area where you're gonna fight 6 pulls?  A brawler won't be the best choice there.  I'd still like to see the Martial Focus line increase our deflection arc to 240 or 270 degrees instead of 120, but I can understand if it isn't changed.  To me that means we need to be better at single-mob though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Cuz]

Cusashorn, from bonesbro's Collecting FAQ information for: "How do I maximize my damage?". <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <LI>Slow weapons have a greater chance to proc on each hit, because proc % is normalized to a 3.0 delay.  That means a 1.5 delay weapon will have half the chance to proc on each hit as a 3.0 delay weapon.  Now, if you just autoattack and leave, you'll get the same number of procs per minute.  But if you're only swinging every few seconds (because your attacks are being delayed by CA casting) then you'll proc more on the swings you do get if you're using a slower weapon. </LI></DIV> <P> </P>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR>Cusashorn, from bonesbro's Collecting FAQ information for: "How do I maximize my damage?". <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <LI>Slow weapons have a greater chance to proc on each hit, because proc % is normalized to a 3.0 delay.  That means a 1.5 delay weapon will have half the chance to proc on each hit as a 3.0 delay weapon.  Now, if you just autoattack and leave, you'll get the same number of procs per minute.  But if you're only swinging every few seconds (because your attacks are being delayed by CA casting) then you'll proc more on the swings you do get if you're using a slower weapon. </LI></DIV> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>..... That still doesn't explain why my weapons all say that with each hit landed, there is a 5% chance that Gleaming Strike will proc on the enemy.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Interesting:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>Actually, monks are fighters who do nice damage. They can't tank as well as guardians in the current game, but as I've said before, that disparity is being addressed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do we have six tank classes? Because not everyone who wants to be a tank wants to play the same character. The archetype system is based around the idea of establishing roles that are then fulfilled in different ways by the various subclasses. We have six kinds of healers, six kinds of mages, six kinds of scouts, and six kinds of fighters. No one is ever going to be completely balanced in every situation, but the goal is that everyone has some way to shine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if all this game was to me was "big business," I wouldn't be debating the role of monks at 1am. Whatever you wish to think about the decisions we make, I hope most people by now at least can see that the EQ2 Team really does care about the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[bonesbro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR>Cusashorn, from bonesbro's Collecting FAQ information for: "How do I maximize my damage?". <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <LI>Slow weapons have a greater chance to proc on each hit, because proc % is normalized to a 3.0 delay.  That means a 1.5 delay weapon will have half the chance to proc on each hit as a 3.0 delay weapon.  Now, if you just autoattack and leave, you'll get the same number of procs per minute.  But if you're only swinging every few seconds (because your attacks are being delayed by CA casting) then you'll proc more on the swings you do get if you're using a slower weapon.</LI> <UL></UL></DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>..... That still doesn't explain why my weapons all say that with each hit landed, there is a 5% chance that Gleaming Strike will proc on the enemy.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yup, that's the base proc chance.  That displayed number has not been adjusted to account for the swing speed.  There have been some fairly lengthy parses on this subject here on the Monk boards; I don't have a link handy but you should be able to find them via searching.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at the numbers this way: a weapon with a 5% proc chance will proc half as many times per minute as a weapon with a 10% proc chance, regardless of weapon speed, assuming you're just standing there with autoattack on.</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Oh I see. The proc info on the weapons only display the very basic requirements for that weapon to proc, but there are numerical factors not mentioned in the description.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand now.</DIV>

[Fleaba]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Monks excel in removing negative effects?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>umm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since when? The only spell I can think of that removes any types of harmful effects is that low level fighter spell that removes mental effects.. uhh Indomitable Will I think it's called. Never once have I ever actually found any use for it. ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do like the aspect of giving certain classes natural resistances to certain types of attacks though.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If I remember right..I used Indomitable Will quite a bit when killing the tree/fairy combos in zek when doing writs...they love to mez. Don't quote me on it though....been a while. lol I know I used it for something, just not sure what.

[Rothgard-san]

<DIV>On paper it seems pretty cool. I still see great challenges though in balancing a monks' high avoidance with giving them a significant resistance to a particular type of damage, though. I can see a scenario where, for example, monks have the highest crushing resist - but being monks also have very high avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With this combination I can see the issue going back to square one... but then again like gaige said, it's all on paper right now, and really can't tell how it'll be until we see the combat changes implemented.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's definately a step towards increasing interdependancy between adventure classes, which imo is a good thing for a starting point in developing fun content.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Jenoy wrote:Cusashorn, from bonesbro's Collecting FAQ information for: "How do I maximize my damage?". <div> </div> <div> <li>Slow weapons have a greater chance to proc on each hit, because proc % is normalized to a 3.0 delay.  That means a 1.5 delay weapon will have half the chance to proc on each hit as a 3.0 delay weapon.  Now, if you just autoattack and leave, you'll get the same number of procs per minute.  But if you're only swinging every few seconds (because your attacks are being delayed by CA casting) then you'll proc more on the swings you do get if you're using a slower weapon. </li></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>..... That still doesn't explain why my weapons all say that with each hit landed, there is a 5% chance that Gleaming Strike will proc on the enemy.</div><hr></blockquote>Just to add to what has already been said, if you want to calculate the proc rate per swing for your weapons the formular is (Delay/3.0)xListedProcPercentage. So the Royal Great Flail that says it has a proc rate of around 12%, a delay of around 3.8 has around a </span><span>15% </span><span>chance to proc every swing.</span><div></div>

[StDrahcir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV>Interesting:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>Actually, monks are fighters who do nice damage. They can't tank as well as guardians in the current game, but as I've said before, that disparity is being addressed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do we have six tank classes? Because not everyone who wants to be a tank wants to play the same character. The archetype system is based around the idea of establishing roles that are then fulfilled in different ways by the various subclasses. We have six kinds of healers, six kinds of mages, six kinds of scouts, and six kinds of fighters. No one is ever going to be completely balanced in every situation, but the goal is that everyone has some way to shine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if all this game was to me was "big business," I wouldn't be debating the role of monks at 1am. Whatever you wish to think about the decisions we make, I hope most people by now at least can see that the EQ2 Team really does care about the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have to admit.  I have been more and more impressed by SOE's team they have for EQ2.  They do try their best to satisfy all and make the game as enjoyable as possible.  Now everyone may not agree with this, but I personally really do feel that they want it to be fun.  As in most of these games things to get taken for granted.  </P> <P>I bow to them and have to say a big THANK YOU!</P>