How to make different raids require different tanks

[zabor]

I had a great idea how monks, guardians, paladins and all the other tank classes could actually be tanks on raids:Just make different armor types only effective against certain type of damage.For example, heavy armor is very good against piercing damage, but bad for crushing. This would even be quite realistic. Piercing really hurts light armor wearers, but crushing doesn't do that much damage.So, heavy armor offers 90% mitigation against piercing, but only 50% against crushing. light armor on the other hand has only 10% mitigation vs. piercing but 50% vs. crushing.Against a mob dealing piercing damage you better bring a plate tank, but against crushing, a brawler is better due to the same mitigation but higher avoidance. This would not make any tank class useless but each of them useful for different situations.Oh yeah, and it would require absolutely no code change. There are already armors out there with different + vs. crushing etc.

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>So you're suggesting to change the mobs themselves so that they're weak against certain armors?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah this works, but what about raid mobs that Bash, Bite, Devestate, Ravage, Melt, and all those other attacks that arn't exactly Crushing, Piercing, or Slashing?</DIV>

[i3ry]

Then the guardians will just carry a set of Light Armor with them also :p <div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Yeah they need to get around to restricting armors. It must be annoying as hell for a guardian to search for new armor on the broker just to see chainmail, Leather, and Cloth on those lists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They should restrict plate classes to plate armor, meaning they cant wear chain or leather, under any circumstances starting at the very moment they equip thier armor quest armor (make it mandatory...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 30 is plenty of time for your armor quests. Force a gear restriction on classes at that time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That would solve the problem of plate classes bringing along leather armor for that reason then. As well as others.</DIV>

[zabor]

<blockquote><hr>i3ry2k wrote:Then the guardians will just carry a set of Light Armor with them also :p <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well heavy armor would mitigate 50% vs. crushing, light armor as well. So no point in choosing light armor for guardians. But with monks and guardians having the same mitigation, you obviously would let the monk tank because he avoids much more.

[Gaige]

<DIV>I'm pretty sure a lot of class specific loot is coming <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>I'm sure there is. I just hope they get around to changing the Broker windows to "Search for the Best Suited Armor" so that Warriors only find Plate armor in thier results, and not Cloth, Leather, and Chain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I'm kinda tired of seeing cloth armor on my search lists. I mean sometimes its hard to tell if its leather or not unless you inspect it first.</DIV>

[Gaige]

Broker searching by class is incoming also.

[psubull]

I've suggested a system that would require a different tank in different situations (FOR EPICS, not normal XP groups.  Any fighter class can tank perfectly in XP groups so long as he/she has a brain and a healer).  Here is the basis of it. Warriors:  Warrior classes would be the best tanks in multiple target encounters due to mitigation.  Multiple MOBs sending out multiple hits = mitigation for the win.  Large groups generally hit softer than single target MOBs, so there would be less damage overall to a warrior.  Guardians would allow the fight to stabilize over a long period of time, but berserkers would tank and dish out AE damage to make the fight shorter at a risk of less defensive powers.  A well suited, top of the line warrior that has played his stats right could potentially tank any sort of encounter better than any other class, but it would be much easier to find a specific tank for each situation.  Single target, big hitting MOBs of extreme epic proportions would require the mitigation of a warrior, also. Crusaders:  Crusaders, due to high int and/or wis, would be optimal for tanking caster MOBs, be they priests or mages.  Paladins would hold up longer over time, wisdom being a huge part in magical resists and spell mitigation.  Shadowknights, with high intelligence and slightly lower wisdom, would risk the security of a paladin for a more fire vs fire tanking approach against caster MOBs.  Sharing heavy armor with warriors, crusaders can tank large group MOBs, but not as well as a warrior Brawlers:  Brawlers, with the highest avoidance money could buy (or buff), would be well suited for single target epic MOBs.  Monks, with beefy avoidance levels, could theoretically go through an entire fight without being hit once.  Bruisers on the other hand, don't care about being hit, and just put anything out of their misery with high offensive capabilities.  Brawlers would also be suitable tanks against caster MOBs due to stuns, stifles and interrupts.  For large group encounters, brawlers would suffer a newly implemented deflection impairment that would make deflection suffer penalties due to the number of MOBs on you (makes sense.  cant block 6 MOBs at once).  Also, attacks from behind would be near impossible to avoid, and ones from the flank would be 50% harder to dodge. Overall, offensive tanks hold better aggro and dish out damage, meaning a shorter fight.  Defensive tanks stabilize the fight, which may be the deciding factor in an encounter.  Mitigation is a 100% thing, avoidance is NOT.  If mitigation says 50%, it mitigates 50%.  If avoidance says 50%, it means that for each incoming hit, flip a coin.  Heads it is a hit, tails its avoided (50% avoidance does NOT mean that you will avoid 50% of the hits in an encounter.  You may avoid 100% one time, or 0% another.  it is all chance.  Will you gamble and have some fun?). This is only part of a previous post that I have on the subject.  Would be glad to answer any questions on the matter if you have any.<div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Right idea and kudos for that! but..... wrong implementation lol :smileywink:</P> <P>Make it close to how you have it, with some changes. I have posted this on many other bords and replies, so i got this one down by wrote lol:</P> <P>Warriors, given the highest physical mitigation, are best suited to tank mobs that attack like a Scout, aka very high spike damage physical attacks, that would almost instantly kill any tank that doesnt ahve warrior level mitigation. This mobs attacks cant be avoided, and pierce though wards (aka shaman's wards wont be as effective in this fight)</P> <P>Crusaders, with their knowledge of the magical relm, have learned how to use magic and faith (be it faithfully good, or delightfuly twisted evil) to protect them from the arcane elemental and noxious forces of magic. They have learned to errect (hey! no snickering in the back row! i herd that, you pervert!) magical wards around themselves that absorb the brunt of a magical attack, or give them a chance to resist it all together. They have about 75% of the mitigation of a warrior, so they arnt the best at mitigation but they can suffice to take a few good physical nlows as well, but their magical defenses is where they truely shine!</P> <P>Brawlers, ever agile and swift, using their calm and centered minds and bodies, deftly avoid rampaging Fighter styled mobs, who use x10 combo attacks, that, when avoided once, the succedding blows all miss. If not avoided, each blow in this combo grows in stregth and power, and by the 10th blow, will have killed even the strongest of fighters. These blows void the target's armor, so mitigation is worthless, and if the blows are not avoided, any warrior or crusader would surely fall in one long combo. Brawlers otoh, would have a about 75% avoidance, giving them about a 75% chance to dodge one of these blows, and a garentied dodge on atleast the 6th blow, making them the best tanks.</P> <P>The both of each classes sub-classes could easily perform on their classes "ideal" mob essentialy the same, Berserker and Guaridan would both have enough mitigation to take the brunt of the deadly strikes, both crusaders withstand spells, noxious/mental is SK only and elemental/divine is Palladin only, and both brawlers will avoid equilly.</P> <P>They can all tank, each having their "optimal" mob.</P> <P> </P> <P>But when tanking a raid mob, why go it alone? If you have extra fighters in a raid what would you do with them? </P> <P>Have them disgracfully wack at the mob's butt? Thats like asking a Priest to nuke more! Leave the [Removed for Content] pokeing to scouts i say, and come on, we ALL know Swashbucklers are better hunters of "tail" than any blood-drenched Berserker :smileywink:</P> <P>My idea is to allow 2-6 fighters to divide any incoming direct damage ammong themselves evenly. Then they woudl each take that damage though their mitigation and avoidance. How does this help? It allows priests to use their special heals (the most efficant heals they have) more than their direct heals (used to keep tank alive when the specials are becoming over run, less effecant) to take less damage at one time, so regenrations and wards and reactives only have to deal with a moderate damage attack on multiple people rather than one person reciving a heavy load all at once.</P> <P>If a mob hit a Berserker with 65% mitigation with a 10,000 attack. That would hit the Berserker for 3,500. That is alot of damage to heal, and a reactive, ward, and regenration even together couldnt cover that, so the priests would have to spam direct heals to keep this warrior alive. Direct heals are what drain healer power.</P> <P>Now, imagine if you had each of the 6 subclasses of fighters all tanking.</P> <P>Same 10,000 damage, each tank takes 1/6 of this, which is 1667</P> <P>Guardian has about 70% mitigation, wont have a chance of avoiding a raid mob- 500 damage</P> <P>Berserker has about 65% mitigation, wont have chance of avoiding a raid mob, with exception of Riposteing with specific self buff- 583 damage</P> <P>Paladin has about 55% mitigation, wont have a chance of avoiding a raid mob, can heal themselves to make up for less mitigation, and ward vs magic,elemental, and divine-750 damage minus how ever much a paladin can heal at level 50. (if this was spell damage paladin would come out alot better)</P> <P>Shadownight has about 55% mitigation, wont have a chance of avoiding a raid mob, can heal themselves (life taps) to make up for less mitigation, and ward vs magic,noxious, and mental- 750 damage minus however much a SK can life tap at 50 (post Combat update as this skill will hopefully get a boost)</P> <P>Monk has about 30% mitigation, depending upon their avoidance 50-75% chance- 1166 if not dodged</P> <P>Bruiser has about 30% mitigation-depending upon their avoidance 50-75% chance- 1166 if not dodged</P> <P>Im not certain, but i think wards can absorb about 1500 damage, i think reactives do about 500 or so with each hit (im not sure i have never actually seen a high end cleric's spell list with actualy numbers) 3 times, and i think regen is 250 every 4 seconds for 30 seconds(2000 total)... atleast thats my guess... if anyone could provide real nubers that would help alot, even though they are gona change with combat revamp.</P> <P>Anyway, a Ward should be strong enough to atleast block 1 hits for a brawler completely and have a little left over to take off about 1/2 of another attack, and a regeneration from a druid can easily cover this, and a reactive should beable to provide about 4 heals that can keep up with mitigation tanks or come close enough that a druid's regeneration can take the overflow. </P> <P>Regen is obviously the one that complements both wards and reactives, keeping druids busy as well. If brawler gets unlucky and gets hit 2 times right after getting a Ward from the shaman, and the shaman has to wait for the recast timer, the Druid's regen would beable to pick up the damage once the second ward is cast, and this is where regen truely shines, it works underneath the wards. If a brawler is unluckyenough to get hit 3 times in a row for a total for 3500, that leaves a hefty 2000 damage left to be healed, but, if you will notice, thats exactly how much regeneration heals in 30 seconds. By keeping a ward on this monk, by the time the next ward brakes, the 2k damage would be healed.</P> <P>By combining tanking and special heals for the most efficant defense, your defense group or groups give the offensive groups time to get that critter dead. Building a strong defense that requires cooperation should be a crittical part of any raid. </P> <P>From my understanding, that is not the current case in very high end raiding. </P> <P>From what i have observed, you have one fighter (Guardian or in some cases a Paladin) stand in front of a ginormous x4 mob while entire raid force stands at it's back. In this Juggernaut's group you have 5 classes that can "buff" the raid tank as best as possible, wether it's resists or simply hp/deffense/avoidance. In the other three group, you might have 1 healer in each, but usualy the healers are buffing in MT group, then you have one enchanter buffing entire raid with breeze's upgrade, and possibly a bard thrown in the MT group for buffing and power regen for the healers. Other than that, DPS classes only.</P> <P>Where can you insert a fighter into this current formula? 1 spot, it's either Main-tank or NO tank. Sure, there are some fighters that will try to assume the roll of a damage class, but they will soon be out of a job when fighters who may have a secondary roll of damage dealer (brawlers, SK, Berserker) will be lowered to a possiton under that of any mage or scout (their PRIMARY function is damage)</P> <P>So, if fighters wont beable to stack their tanking, and if their secondairy roles cant surpass the primary abilities of other archetypes, they are up a creek when it comes to raiding. Imagine if you will, my metaphic image i shall paint for you:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><warning, slightly vulger metaphore ment for humor, PG14 rating of humor within></FONT></P> <P>The lucky main tank-Fighter is the starting quarterback of a state-winning foot ball team (one guy....getting all the action:smileysurprised: ), everyone loves him, especialy the ladies (healers in this case) and shower him with gifts! (item drops that would be given to MT so he can be even more of a super juggernaut)</P> <P>But his buddies are left high and dry sitting home playing eq2 :smileyindifferent:, or they can choose (i hope this isnt too innaproprate for these forms) to get the "leftovers" (in exchange for a more vulger term, SSeconds) of the basket ball and cricket players(scouts and mages). Major bummer :smileymad:</P> <P>Translateion: If only one fighter gets the glory of being the MT, the others are left to fill a role that has allready been taken, if you will:smileywink:</P> <P>Wow...how far of a stretch was that lol... describing Everquest2 Tank problems with a metaphoric example full of sexual enuendos AND sports refrenses! :smileyvery-happy: Yeh, i went there :smileywink:</P> <P>Anyway, thoughs are my views on the solotairy fighter situation. Even if they dont want to add a multi-tanking system, they are going to do something for fighters for raids and groups, or else we will have 1/4 of the classes rendered usless in most situations, and a largely 1/3 of all server population (atleast on most servers fightetrs are a large majority) will reroll or leave the game probly.</P> <P>Please reply with some good ideas or well thought out rebuttles to my ideas.....and if you liked my metaphore :smileywink:</P> <P>Toodles!</P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>Broker searching by class is incoming also. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Broker Searching by Monk Class will still give us Very Light armor in our searches...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can use Very Light Armor, so it should go without saying that it'll still be included in our searches.</DIV>

[Crunion]

<P>I hope they do fix our raid tanking abilities, i really do. But I keep seeing the agil nerf flashing in my mind last time they tried to make us tanks and turned people into unhittable gods with agil buffs.</P> <P>The problem with a monk tank is either we get hit or we don't and that variable scales with the level of the mobs we are fighting,  while on the other hand a plate class will always mitigate at the same % no matter the level of the mob hitting. Yes we share these abilities between us and yes we can each buff these abilities, but when you have an ability that scales vs the level of the mob you are fighting you run the risk of trivializing lower lvl ones.</P> <P>Because our tanking is based on agil i've taken the route of buffing it as high as I can when I solo. Currently I can hit 274 agil self buffed and am around 84% avoidance. Now because I've solo'd alot I like to try different mobs to see how my avoidance scales and try ^^ and regular mobs doing this. The one thing i've noticed is a lvl 50 white mob will hit me more than a lvl 46 ^^ because my avoidance scales so much better on the lower mob and even the ^^ can't bring it back upto a normal white mobs hitting level. The otherside of my avoidance is with mobs 50+. Now granted I can solo those regular mobs okay, but put a ^^ on it and I get totally owned because of the reverse scaling of avoidance.</P> <P>My point to this post was. I really hope they have looked at all aspects of our tanking ability and not just raid mobs. I really would hate to see another situation where we over nerfed us because regular content became trivial trying to make an avoidance based monk into a tank.</P> <P>Choo</P> <P>gnome monk bristlebane</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Clenagh]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:For example, heavy armor is very good against piercing damage, but bad for crushing. This would even be quite realistic. Piercing really hurts light armor wearers, but crushing doesn't do that much damage.<hr></blockquote> Heavy armor  isn't good against piercing damage, it was worn to protect against the average sword/mace, weapons such as lances and bows & arrows brought and end to the heavy armor because someone could just climb a tree a few feet away, aim at a knight's chest, shoot an arrow and pierce right through his torso despite all the armor he could possible wear, if it didnt kill him instantly it would eventually as they bled to death.  </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Clenaghan on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 PM</span>