Procs: Dual Wield vs 2h : Logs

[Dandeli]

<DIV><IMG src="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/2h.jpg"></DIV> <DIV>Hi Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I heard lots about procing, and dual wield or 2her but never saw any data. So I made some. But my only way to parse the logs is by going through with my fingers and hand calculating each hit. BOOOOOooooring. So Im hoping someone else has a way they can doit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I did was took two matching dual wield knuckles and a 2h Flail with basically the same proc on it. (Ones flame, ones striking, other then that they are the same.) I'm a 47 monk so I beat up some rats in RV that were grey to me, so that I could have good accuracy. I also waited to full power between the CA fights to make sure I had enough power to last all the way to the end of the fight.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I have is 4 logs. </DIV> <DIV>Dual Wield Knuckles, no Combat arts. Killed 5 rats: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/bonita_5rats_noCA_DW.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/bonita_5rats_noCA_DW.txt</A></DIV> <DIV>Dual Wield Knuckles, /w Combat arts. Killed 5 rats: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/bonita_5rats_CA_DW.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/bonita_5rats_CA_DW.txt</A></DIV> <DIV>2her, no combat arts. Killed 5 rats: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/bonita_5rats_noCA_2h.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/bonita_5rats_noCA_2h.txt</A></DIV> <DIV>2her, /w combat arts. Killed 5 rats: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/bonit_5rats_CA_2h.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/bonit_5rats_CA_2h.txt</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The rats are the RV ones again, grey to me, lvl 37-39.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The weapons:</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/weapons.JPG"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you can see they have like the same proc.</DIV> <DIV><BR>In all the fights I was fully unbuffed. No stances, no quiety purity. No Everburning Fire. Just drink. (So its probably not a good test of DPS)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'd like to know is mainly about the procs, pulling real numbers from my logs:</DIV> <DIV>1. Will two dual wields with 12% each proc the same over time as a 2her with 12%?</DIV> <DIV>2. Does the delay of the weapon have an effect on procing in respect to using combat arts?</DIV> <DIV>3. Will non weapon items such as cryptic tunic proc more on either weapons? (Your ice blast strikes...)</DIV> <DIV>4. Will someone try to go through my log to read my chat?</DIV> <DIV>5. How close to 6.8% are the iron fist knuckles? or will they be more close to 13.6% since they're dual wield?</DIV> <DIV>   -How much a difference do CA's make to the % calculated by the equation (delay/3 * % blah blah blah)</DIV> <DIV>6. Same as 5 except 2her and 15.2%?</DIV> <DIV>  -And how much CA's effect this percentage of hits.</DIV> <DIV>7. Has cage noticed me yet? or am I on the wrong server?</DIV> <DIV>8. I had other questions, but forgot, can you think of them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/duals.JPG"></DIV>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>Well gosh after that big dumb post, I got this other idea to just use lunging mongoose to see the difference. So I ran up to a rat, hit my ranged attack so that my melee wouldnt auto attack and make hits. Then just used Lunging mongoose till it was dead. You dont even really need to parse the logs to see the difference, you can eyeball it. Its pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] big. (THough it'd be cooooooool to see percentages peoples, so you can parse it if you want, pllllllllllease)</DIV> <DIV><BR>Lunging Mongoose only:</DIV> <DIV>Dual Wield: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/LM_dw.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/LM_dw.txt</A></DIV> <DIV>2her: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/LM_2h.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/LM_2h.txt</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bonesbro]

Thanks for running the test.  I'll start going through the logs now. <div></div>

[bonesbro]

One note: it's a little more difficult to calculate proc % when you use skills that have a dot, so someone runs a similar test in the future please try to avoid using dot procs or dot skills.  Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Jezekie]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>In your first log, with DW no CA it looks like this... For <font color="#ff3333">Ancient Strike</font> Fights 5, 689 swings, 47 procs, 6.82 proc % ------------------- <div><span class="time_text"> For the<font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff">2h parse with no CA</font><font color="#ffffff">, it looks like th</font>is... </span></div> <p><span class="time_text"><font color="#ffff99">Ancient Flame</font> </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">5 fights, 172 swings, 24 procs, 13.95 proc % </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">------------------------- </span></p> Your samples are very very small though, so hard to use them as a base =/ with such a small parse theres a much higher chance of having varied exsamples. You can download a parser <a href="http://home.inreach.com/kai/EQCompanion/" target="_blank">here</a>.<p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>06-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:12 PM</span>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>Oh sorry, the ancient poison is my ranged item, I could take it off. If you'd like a larger sample, I'd totally love to doit, just tell me like, what you want, how many, its probably gonna be rats cause I can do that easy without dying or having to restart the log.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And does those swings include misses? Shouldnt misses be excluded since you dont proc on a miss?<BR> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class=date_text>06-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

[bonesbro]

<div></div>Ok.  First, the numbers for the CA runs are slightly skewed, because I have ignored all hits from Waking Dragon, Diving Dragon, and So'Li's Spitting Cobra, but it isn't a huge change.  I have also ignored the proc Ancient Poison because I can't tell when it has procced and when it just ticks, and if it procs twice in a row it overwrites itself, so I can't get a number on how many times it procced. Also, you noted that you were completely unbuffed, but what % haste do you have from items? 2H CA: Total hits: 147 Ancient Flame: 26 Ice blast: 18 Total proc rate: 29.93% Flame procs: 17.69% Ice procs: 12.24% DW CA: Total hits: 336 Ancient Strike: 27 Ice blast: 14 Total proc rate: 12.20% Strike procs: 8.04% Ice procs: 4.17% 2H Only: Total hits: 172 Ancient Flame: 24 Ice Blast: 23 Total proc rate: 27.33% Flame procs: 13.95% Ice procs: 13.37% DW Only: Total hits: 689 Ancient Strike: 47 Ice Blast: 15 Total proc rate: 9.00% Flame procs: 6.82% Ice procs: 2.18% <div></div><p>Message Edited by bonesbro on <span class=date_text>06-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:09 AM</span>

[bonesbro]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dandelize wrote:<div></div> <div>Oh sorry, the ancient poison is my ranged item, I could take it off. If you'd like a larger sample, I'd totally love to doit, just tell me like, what you want, how many, its probably gonna be rats cause I can do that easy without dying or having to restart the log.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">And does those swings include misses? Shouldnt misses be excluded since you dont proc on a miss?</font> </div><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class="date_text">06-18-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:04 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Crap, you're right.  Let me edit.</span><div></div>

[Jezekie]

Not sure if you proc on a miss? Guess not. <div></div>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>I only had my FBSS on which was 15%. I could take that off too, but haste would be to determine DPS wouldnt it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw thank you guys, thats totally the stuff I was looking for =) </DIV><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class=date_text>06-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:17 AM</span>

[bonesbro]

For the pure DW test: Your expected proc rate on the IK is 12% * (1.7 actual delay / 3.0) = 6.8%.  In the DW-only test, we saw a 6.82% proc rate.  Looks good.  Ice blast's listed proc rate is 10%.  Normalized to 1.7 delay, that would be 5.67%.  We only saw a 2.18% proc rate.  If we took a guess that the proc rate on your shirt is halved on a DW weapon, then it was expected to proc 2.83%, which is pretty close to 2.18%.  A larger sample would help. For the pure 2H test: Your expected proc rate on the RGF is 12% * (3.8 actual delay / 3.0) = 15.20%.  In the 2H-only test, we saw a 13.95% proc rate.  Close; were you wearing a haste sash or bangle?.  Ice blast's listed proc rate is 10%.  Normalized to 3.8 delay, that would be 12.67%.  The actual proc rate was 13.37%.  Both numbers are close enough that we can chalk up differences to the RNG. <div></div>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dandelize wrote:<div></div> <div>I only had my FBSS on which was 15%. I could take that off too, but haste would be to determine DPS wouldnt it?</div> <div> </div> <div>Btw thank you guys, thats totally the stuff I was looking for =) </div><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class="date_text">06-18-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You could still determine the DPS you have now, with or without knowing haste %. If you want to know differences between say 15% and 50% haste, then it'd ofcourse be needed.</span><div></div>

[bonesbro]

For the DW mongoose-only (how many times do you suppose anyone has ever used the phrase "mongoose-only"?) test: Hits: 62 Strike: 7 Ice blast: 1 Total proc rate: 12.90% Strike procs: 11.29% Ice blast procs: 1.61% Ancient Strike seemed to proc pretty much exactly as often as the proc rate on the weapon would suggest, but a larger sample would help, as it looks like Ice blast got beaten hard with the RNG. For the mongoose-only 2H test: Hits: 48 Flame: 8 Ice blast: 5 Total proc rate: 27.08% Flame procs: 16.67% Ice blast procs: 10.42% Based on these two tests, I can't really make any good guesses about how it works.  It doesn't really seem like proc rate on CAs is affected by weapon speed, but we just don't have enough data points.  I'll <strike>spam some more</strike> follow up with assumptions in another reply. <div></div>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>I might make a couple more if you two are interested with larger samples, buffs and haste. Would 20 rats be better? Thats a lot of swings for one to kill. </DIV> <DIV>I'd be interested to see myself. I could take the confusing range item off too. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class=date_text>06-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:32 AM</span>

[bonesbro]

Based on these logs, it does seem clear that procs on weapons are correctly scaled to the speed of your weapon.  It <i>appears</i> that the proc rate on non-weapons, like your Cryptic Tunic, is scaled to your weapon speed, but that doesn't account for all of the difference.  If it's just cut in half when DWing, then I would have expected the proc rate on the DW only test to have come close to the ideal 5.88%, because you have two knuckles to proc.  Guess: Maybe armor procs can only fire on your main hand?  Our actual proc rate of 2.76% is almost exactly half our expected proc rate of 5.88%, which could be explained if it only fired on your main hand. Total for all 2h parses: Flame: 15.76%, Ice: 12.50% Total for all dw parses: Strike: 7.45%, Ice: 2.76% <div></div>

[bonesbro]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dandelize wrote:<div></div> <div>I might make a couple more if you two are interested with larger samples, buffs and haste. Would 20 rats be better? Thats a lot of swings for one to kill. </div> <div>I'd be interested to see myself. I could take the confusing range item off too. </div><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class="date_text">06-18-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:32 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> If you do another one, a larger sample of rats would help.  The CA-only and autoattack-only logs are the most interesting ones.  To speed things up, you could use all of your CAs instead of just mongoose, though please don't use Waking Dragon, Diving Dragon, or So'Li's, because it would take forever to seperate out which ones are the kick and which ones are the DOT.  Though not as long as it will take you to run the test so maybe I should stop whining! If you could unequip any haste item that would probably be best; I did my numbers assuming you weren't hasted because I forgot about it until the last post and don't want to redo them all. Actually, one sample of 5 rats with 2h only with full haste buffs would be great too - it would tell us if haste has any effect on proc rate.</span><div></div>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>bonesbro wrote:<span> If you could unequip any haste item that would probably be best; I did my numbers assuming you weren't hasted because I forgot about it until the last post and don't want to redo them all.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Haste has no relevance towards the proc rate though AFAIK. Unless you want to crunch numbers for Bonitas DPS.</span><div></div>

[bonesbro]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>bonesbro wrote:<span> If you could unequip any haste item that would probably be best; I did my numbers assuming you weren't hasted because I forgot about it until the last post and don't want to redo them all.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Haste has no relevance towards the proc rate though AFAIK. Unless you want to crunch numbers for Bonitas DPS.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Aye, I'm hoping to turn that AFAIK into a "for sure" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>Immmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm BACK  ...:womanwink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt do the one you asked for yet, oopsie, will later today. But i got some stuffies for you to look at if you wants =)</DIV> <DIV><BR>Here are two logs. Both of them are me fully buffed I think. Solo. Grinding off Bees in RV. I'm not sure how much kills are in each, but each log is about 10% exp no vit, so should be a good chunk of samples. These are kinda real world to me fighting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Royal Great Flail : <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/10percent_bees_2h.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/10percent_bees_2h.txt</A></DIV> <DIV>Dual IronFist Knuckles: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/10percent_bees_Dw.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/10percent_bees_Dw.txt</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here are some others just for primary secondary ?'s, but they kinda jacked and smaller samples.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Primary: Sixta's Knuckles Mastery. Secondary: Ironfist Knuckles: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/10bees_Six_Iron.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/10bees_Six_Iron.txt</A></DIV> <DIV>Primary: Ironfist Knuckles. Secondary: Sixta's blah blah: <A href="http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/4.5bees_Iron_Six.txt" target=_blank>http://www.shiney.crasch.net/monk/4.5bees_Iron_Six.txt</A> </DIV> <DIV>The first one is 10 kills, the second one is 4 kills and I ran away on the 5th cause another bee added and I didnt feel like doing it so i ran away and Feign Death and found some ego's. Ego's are really good you know? I put peanut butter on them and let it melt, then it was like I had a tasty tasty snack in my hands. (P.s. I couldnt see in logs where it showed alacrity procing, so I dont know if that can stuff n Stuff)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Buffs:</DIV> <DIV>Quiet Purity AD3: 10% Group DPS, 11 weapon skills, 300 mental mitigation</DIV> <DIV>Spider Stance AD3: 15% non stacking haste. 15 defense</DIV> <DIV>Everburning Flame Master I: 41% haste</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My attacks were:</DIV> <DIV>Waking Dragon AD3</DIV> <DIV>Biting Mantis Master I</DIV> <DIV>Charging Tiger AD3</DIV> <DIV>So'Li's SPitting Cobra</DIV> <DIV>Diving Phoenix AD3</DIV> <DIV>Stumbling Boar Master I</DIV> <DIV>Diving Dragon Master I</DIV> <DIV>Lunging Mongoose AD3</DIV> <DIV>Icy Talon AD3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My active haste was 58% (Flame + FBSS).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think thats it, gonna go finish Break fast! XoXo</DIV>

[bonesbro]

Forget the logs, I want your gear hookup! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'll parse through those log thingies this morning. <div></div>

[Jezekie]

<div></div><a href="http://img57.echo.cx/my.php?image=parse9yc.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img57.echo.cx/img57/5852/parse9yc.th.jpg" border="0"></a> Seems the proc rate isn't matching some of those CAs? Comes out to be 7.3%, when it should be closer to 15.2%, if you just take the melee and not the CAs it comes out at 30%, so the CAs seems to be affecting the proc rate differently.

[bonesbro]

Hmm, I looked at the numbers a bit differently, and I got 16.8% for AF and 13.55% for IB.  Here's what I did with your screenshot: I added up all the hits that were the following CAs: Swooping eagle Charging tiger Stumbling boar Diving phoenix Biting mantis Lunging mongoose Crushing I excluded So'Li's, Diving Dragon, and Waking Dragon, because some of those hits are the DOT tick which can't trigger a proc.  That gave me 1675 hits.  (That's a few hundred low, though).  Dividing 282 AF procs by 1675 gives a 16.8% proc rate.  I'm overestimating by about 10-15%, but not a huge margin. <div></div>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>bonesbro wrote:Hmm, I looked at the numbers a bit differently, and I got 16.8% for AF and 13.55% for IB.  Here's what I did with your screenshot: I added up all the hits that were the following CAs: Swooping eagle Charging tiger Stumbling boar Diving phoenix Biting mantis Lunging mongoose Crushing <font color="#ff0033"> I excluded So'Li's, Diving Dragon, and Waking Dragon, because some of those hits are the DOT tick which can't trigger a proc.</font>  That gave me 1675 hits.  (That's a few hundred low, though).  Dividing 282 AF procs by 1675 gives a 16.8% proc rate.  I'm overestimating by about 10-15%, but not a huge margin. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I included the DoT attacks in total # of hits, didn't think about that. That's where the error is at on my part.</span><div></div>

[Tuscan Sangiove]

The effort to actually parse this is great... but the sample sizes are waaaay too small to be accurate. I'm sure we have a stat geek around here somewhere who can calculate how many swings it would take to comprise a statistically valid sample.  I would imagine about 5000 swings would be a bare minimum to start having results that don't risk being skewed by a streak of procs or a streaky absence of procs. I know that when we parsed stuff on the warrior boards in EQ1, we pretty much ignored any sample that wasn't very large (2 hours or more of continuous swinging in a controlled test, or 10s of thousands of swings if it was broken up due to mobs dying, etc...). Of course, we had the advantage of having some mobs that we could sit there and swing at and never kill (they didn't get hurt or swing back), and we could also duel for testing purposes, and just have to have a target dummy and someone to heal him <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  In EQ2 I haven't ran across any target dummy mobs <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And that makes gathering samples large enough to be useful quite a pain in the rear. <div></div>

[bonesbro]

Yup.  But on even a small sample you can get a good feel for the underlying mechanic.  If you proc twice as much with weapon A as with weapon B, it's not very likely that weapon B actually procs more. <div></div>

[Dandeli]

<P>Those new logs are pretty long ... easily 90 mins of parsing each ...</P> <P>Hopefully thats better =p</P>

[HL12]

<DIV>I would hate to suggest it.. but in the interest of science :smileyvery-happy: Some of the best mobs you could probably parse on are the Scions in SH.. They got a TON of HPs and take forever to kill..  Only problem is they are a pain to get spawned. So trying to get the same mob twice or even two of em around the same time is just stupid hard.  Anyway.. Best parse mob I can think of. </DIV><p>Message Edited by HL1240 on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

[Edyil]

<P>Great work <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Keep it up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>If the rats in Rivervale are grey, then so is one of the named for the Drafling access quest.  I forget his name.  But he is epic 2 group.  Not a tough mob, but lots of HP.  Take off the belt, remove all buffs.  Start melee and go eat pizza an watch a movie.</P> <P>Likewise the named vampires at the end of the BC quests have just crazy HP.  They would be grey as well.  You get the added bonus of them healing themselves quite often.  You could stand at the top of the spire in the Crypt zone were the boss is and parse for hours while afk.</P> <DIV>If your focus is to use CAs in your analysis, then the named Drafling mobs in RV is a better bet. </DIV> <DIV>Alegos the Betrayer<BR>Demeroth the Gnawer<BR>Xelindros the Fearbringer<BR></DIV> <DIV>I believe the Gnawer by far had the most HP.</DIV>