Monk vs Guardian Tanking Analysis

[woo]

<DIV><STRONG><U>Background</U></STRONG></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>There are constantly threads in all sections of these forums saying "monks cant tank", "monks are dps" or "monks can too tank!".  The common trend is that monks arent generally <EM>accepted</EM> to <EM>be</EM> tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently guardians are the high end of the mitigation scale and monks are at the opposite end with high avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The job of a tank is:</DIV> <OL> <LI>Take the damage.</LI> <LI>Keep the damage going to the tank from going to other players.</LI></OL></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><U><STRONG>Damage Taken</STRONG></U></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>For this we are going to assume an average self buffed guardian and monk.  Hitpoints are irrelivant at this point, as they dont affect how much damage you take (if you are hit for 500 damage.. you lose 500hp weather you have 2000hp or 5000hp).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Average monk: 75% avoidance, 40% mitigation.  Currently my self buffed is 80.1% avoidance and 43.2% mitigation.  The numbers I will be using are below the low end of monk stats.</DIV> <DIV>Average guardian: 60% avoidance, 55% mitigation.  Some may have slightly higher or lower, but these are pretty close considering i will use low end of monk stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets assume that over the course of a battle mob "X" puts forth 10,000 melee damage.  We are assuming both the monk and guardian have zero (equal) resistances to special damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><EM>Monk</EM></U></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>10,000 damage.  75% of that is avoided, which brings down to 2,500 damage going to the monk.  The 2,500 damage is mitigated down to <U>1,500 damage taken</U>.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><EM><U>Guardian</U></EM></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>10,000 damage.  60% of that is avoided, which brings down to 4,000 damage going to the guardian.  The 4,000 damage is mitigated down to <U>1,800 damage taken.</U></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Looks like monks take about 15% less damage than guardians.  This has been brought up before.  If I were to use my monks avoidance/mitigation numbers -- it comes out to about 1,000 damage taken.  Compare this to a guardian with another 5% avoidance and mitigation (very high).. they still would be at about 1,500 damage taken.  Self buffed, monks will take less damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "spike" factor:  Many refer to "spiking" or "jumpy" hitpoints when a tanks odds roll against him several times and they fail to avoid several attacks in a row.  This is then mitigated and subtracted from there hitpoints.  Often people fear monks tanking, because if a monk gets a bad "roll" -- we can not mitigate as much of the damage.  This doesnt happen often.</DIV> <DIV>But what about guardians?  They actually have a <EM>greater</EM> chance of getting a "bad roll" due to there lower avoidance.  However, when they get a bad roll -- there hitpoints wont jump as far.  This is for two reasons: 1) they have more hitpoints.  500 off of 1000 doesnt look as bad as 500 off of 800.  2) They mitigate more.  The 500 off of the 800 in the monks case would actually be closer to 600.</DIV> <DIV>Monks have a small chance to get a bad roll and take large damage, guardians have a greater chance at getting a bad roll and take less damage.  Either way, it balances out to be that monks take less damage overall.  However, monks are less "predictable" for the healers since a healer can keep a reactive/regen heal on a guardian and it will keep them alive even if they get a bad roll.  With a monk on a bad roll -- a reactive/regen heal just wont cut it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For this.. we will call it a tie.  Monks can (if they don't get bad rolls) tank something a guardian couldn't if there were a mob tough enough due to the fact that monks take less damage.  However, a guardian is easier to keep alive in the case of a string of bad rolls.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG><U>Aggro Managment</U></STRONG></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>There are three ways to keep aggro:</DIV> <OL> <LI> <DIV>Taunts</DIV></LI> <LI> <DIV>Buffs</DIV></LI> <LI> <DIV>Damage</DIV></LI></OL> <P><U><EM>Taunts</EM></U></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Monks receive the Taunt line and the Shout line.  No other combat arts have hate increases attatched to them.</P> <P>Guardians receive the Taunt and Shout lines as well.  They also receive a few additional attacks with hate increases attatched to them.</P> <P>For taunts alone, guardians are better at aggro control.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><U><EM>Buffs</EM></U></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>When a buff is cast, it increases hate towards the caster.  I am refferring to the "quick cast" buffs with short durations -- not the 10 min long buffs or the concentration slot buffs.</P> <P>Monks receive two lines.  One buffs avoidance and the other mitigation.  Both of these last ~45 seconds and are cast right after combat for increased hate.</P> <P>Guardians do not receive any.</P> <P>For buffs alone, monks are better at aggro control.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><U><EM>Damage</EM></U></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Damage is a big factor in increasing hate.  The more damage, the more hate.  This is proved whenever a sorcerer decides to go nuke-happy.</P> <P>Monks receive far less buffs in general, which means they receive more damage-oriented combat arts.  Most of these combat arts outdamage guardians'.</P> <P>For damage alone, monks are better at aggro control.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Overall, monks are better at aggro managment.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>So whos the better tank?  It will probably be a matter of opinion or situation.. I am biased towards monks (thats why i picked a monk).  Just keep in mind that monks are indeed tanks.</P> <P> </P> <P><EM>Edit: Typos</EM></P><p>Message Edited by woode on <span class=date_text>05-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:43 PM</span>

[i3ry]

<span><blockquote><hr>woode wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote dir="ltr"><p><u><em>Buffs</em></u></p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p>When a buff is cast, it increases hate towards the caster.  I am refferring to the "quick cast" buffs with short durations -- not the 10 min long buffs or the concentration slot buffs.</p></blockquote></blockquote> <hr></blockquote>Actually, our 10 minute buff (Quiet Purity line) is awesome agro.  I use it at the beginning of every fight I tank in and very rarely ever lose agro.</span><div></div>

[Skha]

But it doesnt work this way, guards avoid more then brawler types and they also hold agro better because their taunts give way more hate their ours do. Also its not only avoidance that counts, guards have many defense buffs that stack, same goes for parry. Maybe this doesnt count for heroic mobs and blue and lower cons in general but against raid guardian will always avoid much more then monks/bruisers.

[Tiao]

<P>Another factor you have to consider is the level of the mob you are tanking. Avoidance is greatly changed when a mob cons yellow or higher as it is changed when a mob goes blue, green.</P> <P>you will notice when you mouseover the 75.8% avoidance for example, it will say 75.8% to an encounter of equal level. The guardian is much preferred because of the massive hit point pool they carry around with them. Hence when they get hurt, they wont get hurt as much as we do.</P> <P>Lets say a mob hits for roughly 500 damage.</P> <P>A guardian with 5000 hitpoints can get hit 10 times before death.</P> <P>Monk with 3500 gets hit 7 times before death, hence monks loose a bigger percentage of health per hit.</P> <P>Dont get me wrong i'm not dissing monks, i love my monk and would love to see him in a more group leading role.</P> <P> But to be honest unless changes to the monks HP's happen, all i see us performing is a backup DPS role. </P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

<P>Guardians have the following buffs some are upgrades.  </P> <P>Guardian's Call - Increased group offense.</P> <P>Call of Command - Increased group defense.</P> <P>Battle Cry - Increased group armor/stam.</P> <P>Call to Battle - Increased group offense.</P> <P>Call of Protection - Increased group defense.</P> <P>Commanding Presence - Increased group armor/hit points/stam</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh and monks have some taunts.</P> <P>Hand Clap - Increases hate towards the monk and interrupts all enemies in an encounter.</P> <P>Silent Threat - Increases hate towards the monk. This ability can be used while stifled.</P> <P>Focus Energy - Increases hate towards the monk and grants an increase in the monk's attack.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:42 AM</span>

[Nefari]

<i>When a buff is cast, it increases hate towards the caster.  I am refferring to the "quick cast" buffs with short durations -- not the 10 min long buffs or the concentration slot buffs. - </i>I don't want to sound like a jerk, but this is totally wrong.  Self-buffs create practically no hate at all, it is GROUP buffs which are a good part of holding aggro...that's why the mob will often run straight for your Mystic or Illusionist...it's because they have buffs which "tick" (regens and breeze linie), which in game mechanics is essentially RE-CAST every turn...building hate often before the tank has even had a chance to taunt. If you want to see this in action...have someone ELSE bow-pull or low-dmg spell pull a mob, and cast your self-buff.  The mob won't even notice....do it again and cast a GROUP buff, and the mob will head straight for you. Guardians have several lines of group buffs...monks have one group buff line.  There's not even a comparison here. <p><i>Monks receive far less buffs in general, which means they receive more damage-oriented combat arts.  Most of these combat arts outdamage guardians'.</i></p> <p><i>For damage alone, monks are better at aggro control. </i></p> <p><i> </i>- This is oversimplified.  Yes, Monks combat arts do more damage...but that's not the whole story regarding aggro control and melee damage.  Debuffing produces BIG aggro, and Monks only get one line of spells which debuff...and it's an attribute debuff (agi), which generates less hate than a straight combat stats debuff . Guardian combat arts debuff areas which will generate LOTS of aggro....attack rating and attack RATE (slows).  They also get combat arts which do dmg as WELL as taunt. </p> <p>Monks do more damage, Guardians generate equal or greater hate with LESS damage. </p> <p> </p> <p> I totally agree that Monks can be great tanks.  We can do alot of things better than a Guardian.  Generate hate and control aggro are not among our advantages.  We have to work harder than they do to keep mobs on us. </p> <p> </p> <p>Nefalu 50th Monk AB </p> <div></div>

[IrulanDunedanc]

I know Grappling Bear has a raw DPS debuff in addition to the interrupt.  Dunno if anything else in the line has that though.

[Morrolan V]

<DIV> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Well laid out, woode.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>There are a number of complexities that play in to your analysis:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Taking Damage:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Garamond><FONT size=3>1. The mitigation and avoidance numbers that are displayed are only against even level MoBs.<SPAN>  </SPAN>In my experience, full groups are almost never fighting even cons.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They always want to be fighting MoBs 3-5 levels higher to maximize experience.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Thus, the functions that are applied to reduce mitigation and avoidance against higher level MoBs will be a very important.<SPAN>  </SPAN>As I and others have said elsewhere, observation over many hundreds of fights indicates that mitigation falls off slowly, while avoidance falls more steeply.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>2. A lot depends on the “shape” of the damage.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Is it many small hits for small amounts or a few major hits?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Avoidance tanks should perform about the same against many small hits, because the odds even out.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I think we tend to see spikes more not because of “streaks” as much as because a few spells or combat arts hit us and then are not mitigated.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>3. What type of damage are we talking about?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Physical or magic?<SPAN>  </SPAN>And can we even avoid magic damage at all?<SPAN>  </SPAN>This may be a big issue, and I have never seen it discussed.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If I understand the combat system, avoidance is for physical damage only, while the player’s resist against a given type of spell is what governs whether the spell “hits.”<SPAN>  </SPAN>If mitigation is applied the same against both physical and magic damage, however, this would tend to be a HUGE advantage for plate tanks.<SPAN>  </SPAN>(Also, does plate armor have higher resists than light?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Haven’t really checked that out.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Bottom line – only real way to figure it out is to parse over a range of fights.<SPAN>  </SPAN>My non-scientific observations here indicate that plate tanks take less damage in fights against yellow and orange MoBs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Keeping Aggro:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>1. We hit for more damage, no question.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That means that we almost never lose aggro on the MoB we are attacking.<SPAN>  </SPAN>However, it seems that this has little or no hate generating effect on other MoBs in the encounter.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>2. As stated above by others, Guardians have a number of buffs and attacks that have hate generating effects.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We have some too, but not as many.  (BTW, it is true that group buffs have much more of a hate-generating effect than self buffs.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Having said all that, I guess I also need to ask: why are we obsessed with how we tank compared to Guardians?<SPAN>  </SPAN>I, for one, have absolutely no problem letting a Guardian stand in front of the MoB while I beat on it (so long as the Guardian knows what he or she is doing).<SPAN>  </SPAN>I also have no problem tanking, and love doing it.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Monks can tank at all levels of the game and against any MoB.<SPAN>  </SPAN>No question.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Are we the best, most efficient choice for that role?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Who cares, really, so long as everyone is having fun?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>If some newb in a pickup groups thinks that I can’t tank, I either show him otherwise or go find something else to do.<SPAN>  </SPAN>(Ignorant players don’t tend to be fun or safe group members anyhow.)<SPAN>  </SPAN>Life’s too short to get our knickers in a twist over it, IMHO.</FONT></P></DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>from what ive seen put simply, i can outtank a plate wearer in short duration fights where for  the most part my safety is ensured on the first few rolls.</P> <P>When you start seeing fights last for 2-5 minutes is when things get ugly.</P> <P>Which is basically in xp grind groups where that speed and efficiency is key. Otherwise, from the get go, the tanking debate has always been about raids...</P>

[Sysiphus7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>Otherwise, from the get go, the tanking debate has always been about raids...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Couldn't say it better myself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking X1 and X2 mobs as a monk is no big deal. I do it quite often. The problem is LVL 50+ X4 mobs where the fight lasts 3-5+ minutes. There is where the Monk role in the raid has become debateable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[sglant]

arent Hand Clap/Focus Energy on same timer? All I know is I have 1 single target and 1 AoE taunt per 'round' .....

[Uth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morrolan V wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Well laid out, woode.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>There are a number of complexities that play in to your analysis:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Taking Damage:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Garamond><FONT size=3>1. The mitigation and avoidance numbers that are displayed are only against even level MoBs.<SPAN>  </SPAN>In my experience, full groups are almost never fighting even cons.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They always want to be fighting MoBs 3-5 levels higher to maximize experience.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Thus, the functions that are applied to reduce mitigation and avoidance against higher level MoBs will be a very important.<SPAN>  </SPAN>As I and others have said elsewhere, observation over many hundreds of fights indicates that mitigation falls off slowly, while avoidance falls more steeply.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>2. A lot depends on the “shape” of the damage.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Is it many small hits for small amounts or a few major hits?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Avoidance tanks should perform about the same against many small hits, because the odds even out.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I think we tend to see spikes more not because of “streaks” as much as because a few spells or combat arts hit us and then are not mitigated.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>3. What type of damage are we talking about?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Physical or magic?<SPAN>  </SPAN>And can we even avoid magic damage at all?<SPAN>  </SPAN>This may be a big issue, and I have never seen it discussed.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If I understand the combat system, avoidance is for physical damage only, while the player’s resist against a given type of spell is what governs whether the spell “hits.”<SPAN>  </SPAN>If mitigation is applied the same against both physical and magic damage, however, this would tend to be a HUGE advantage for plate tanks.<SPAN>  </SPAN>(Also, does plate armor have higher resists than light?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Haven’t really checked that out.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Bottom line – only real way to figure it out is to parse over a range of fights.<SPAN>  </SPAN>My non-scientific observations here indicate that plate tanks take less damage in fights against yellow and orange MoBs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Keeping Aggro:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>1. We hit for more damage, no question.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That means that we almost never lose aggro on the MoB we are attacking.<SPAN>  </SPAN>However, it seems that this has little or no hate generating effect on other MoBs in the encounter.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>2. As stated above by others, Guardians have a number of buffs and attacks that have hate generating effects.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We have some too, but not as many.  (BTW, it is true that group buffs have much more of a hate-generating effect than self buffs.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>Having said all that, I guess I also need to ask: why are we obsessed with how we tank compared to Guardians?<SPAN>  </SPAN>I, for one, have absolutely no problem letting a Guardian stand in front of the MoB while I beat on it (so long as the Guardian knows what he or she is doing).<SPAN>  </SPAN>I also have no problem tanking, and love doing it.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Monks can tank at all levels of the game and against any MoB.<SPAN>  </SPAN>No question.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Are we the best, most efficient choice for that role?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Who cares, really, so long as everyone is having fun?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Garamond color=#ffffff size=3>If some newb in a pickup groups thinks that I can’t tank, I either show him otherwise or go find something else to do.<SPAN>  </SPAN>(Ignorant players don’t tend to be fun or safe group members anyhow.)<SPAN>  </SPAN>Life’s too short to get our knickers in a twist over it, IMHO.</FONT></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>totally /agree with your post! *thumbsup*

[Rukor]

<DIV>This is a pretty interesting post and if you take it just at face value then yes Monks can tank as well as any plate class but some things have been touched on lightly and some have been missed all together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While all things are even 500 damge from 10000 hp is the same it is the frequency of the damage during the fight that is the overall demise of the monk being a true tank.  As a monk I get more attacks per round than a plate class will along with specials so forth and so on.  So while the same mob might only hit a plate for some percentage of 500 ( not going to get into all the math as I dont have the real numbers in front of me ) I will get for a large percentage BUT I will get hit for that higher percentage more often than a plate since the mob has a change to repost back on me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now people are going to say that they can repost on the plate also true but not as much remember I get more attacks due to speed buffs and faster weapons.  You have to take that into account for monks.  We are a dps class and deal out large damage over long period of time but for any fight and double so for the the longer the fight lasts the more prone we are to dieing very quickly and messy.  Monks are very good off tanks for short periods of time to help control adds and such but once the plate class tanks attack the mob I try to FD off them so I am not getting smacked around so much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been playing monks for a long time and back in EQ1 I died many times to mobs that would reposts my attacks and if I was on a raid and had crazy enchanter speed buffs and very fast weapons death was a sure thing if I was tanking high end mobs.  Now with proper healage we might be able to pull a group along as a main tank but it will be by no means as efficent as having a true meat shield tauting and taking those hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks are the very bottom of the fighter pool for tanking but with the best armor/healers/buffs we can take on pretty much any mobs out there.  But we are ment to be tanks for only short periods of time long fights at any level are troublesome.</DIV>

[stfields]

<DIV>Has anyone tried having one monk use martial discipline on the other monk to up their avoidance past 100%?  Maybe tack on the paladin line of intervene buffs... and maybe you got a very good raid tanking monk.</DIV>

[bonesbro]

<DIV>We were doing Zalak last night and I ran up to the MT to mend him and forgot to switch off autoattack and as I ran in front of the mob I took a swing and was one-shotted by a riposte.  What's amusing is that the same thing happened later that fight to the other Monk on the raid.  Of course I didn't have the suite of buffs the MT would have, and I was wearing a VLA tunic and boots, but instagib from a 6500 damage riposte depressed me a bit.</DIV>

[woo]

<DIV>To the poster about 'we have 80% avoidance, but its towards a lvl 35 mob etc etc':  So is guardians'.. so is mitigation..  lvl doesn't really make a difference because the numbers will just scale up/down, they wont change so that a mob two levels higher than a monk will make 20% avoidance and 10% mitigation..  same is true with guardians.  Also i saw parrys and such mentioned -- these are all a part of avoidance, they arent additional factors on top of it.  Just remember that all classes share the same math for avoidance/mitigation.  If a guardian doesnt get deflection (which they dont) then its just a 0 in the equation (which is the reason they have less and we have more).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the poster about monks getting more hate abilities than I mentioned:  No.  We only receive the two I mentioned -- taunt and shout lines.  Hand clap and focus energy are both upgrades to shout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the poster who said he gets hit more than a plate tank:  Not sure what to say.. um.. we have more avoidance, we dont get hit more.  this is common knowledge and easily proved..  thats why we are avoidance tanks.  Over a long time, monk will take less damage.  Over a short time we could take zero damage or we could take more damage due to spikes.  There is no way to argue against it, you can only argue it is about spiking since avoidance is a chance to happen whereas mitigation is always "in place" so to speak.</DIV> <DIV>Spiking -- there is always an opposite to balance out the equation:  we may get a series of good rolls as well, where we can avoid hits for a solid 20 seconds without being touched.  This is more likely to occur than a bad set of rolls.  This has saved me several times where i was in red w/ healer out of power fighting a tough mob with low health -- i managed to avoid the last 5-6 hits and live on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About buffing avoidance:  in my XP group full buffed + HO buffed i have 91.3% avoidance and 63% mitigation (another 8%ish w/ hero armor)..  raid buffed without doubt it is possible to achieve 100% avoidance(although highest iv gotten is 98.2% but we werent trying for 100%).  however this is 100% avoidance twoards a lvl 35, and it doesnt count for spells.  also i have a fealing that avoidance might be hiddenly hard capped at 95%ish.  That said.. iv also seen guardians with 100% avoidance or mitigation..  but that 100% isnt 100% towards a mob three lvls above him/her.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the comments and mature discussion..</DIV> <DIV>sidenote: It seems if i post in fighter/monk forums, there are much more mature threads/responses than in the general forums..  :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Edit: typos</EM></DIV><p>Message Edited by woode on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:16 PM</span>

[Gaige]

You can get 100% avoidance.

[stfields]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>You can get 100% avoidance. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But is it truly 100% avoidance?  Would a level 50 monk with 100% avoidance fighting a level 50 ^^ mob sustain 0 melee damage?

[Nefari]

Avoidance is based against even-con mobs, no ^'s.  So, theoretically, at 100% Avoidance a 50th Monk could not be hit by a 50th lvl no-arrow mob's regular attacks.  In my experience, mob Combat Arts receive a bonus to hit...or at least it seems that way.  A greenie mob that can't hit me at all will still occasionally get me with a Wild Swing or Crushing Blow. <div></div>

[HL12]

stfields wrote: <HR> <DIV>Has anyone tried having one monk use martial discipline on the other monk to up their avoidance past 100%? </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>At lvl 44 I solo the shift boss spawn in runnyeye alot .. they all range from lvl 38 (______)   to 39 =(Heroic)= on the named bosses my avoidance self buffed is about 75%.</P> <P>Last night I had a Monk duo with me and cast martial discipline on me.. which theorectically should give me 100% avoidance vs a mob of my lvl.  well I still got hit ny mobs approximately 4 to 6 lvls below me.  I was being hit less, or it could have been the mobs were just dying faster and not having as many chances to hit me but there where a few fights where I needed to compress towards the end.  So I think martial discipline was working but not like the discriptions suggest.  I would even go as far as to say there might be a hidden cap on avoidance somewhere in the system. Otherwise, since most monks have at least 70% avoidance, we just martial discipline each other and never be hit by mobs our lvl and below.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Avoidance is based against even-con mobs, no ^'s. <BR><BR>So, theoretically, at 100% Avoidance a 50th Monk could not be hit by a 50th lvl no-arrow mob's regular attacks.  In my experience, mob Combat Arts receive a bonus to hit...or at least it seems that way.  A greenie mob that can't hit me at all will still occasionally get me with a Wild Swing or Crushing Blow.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I think this is right on about CAs receiving bonus as about 95% of the time when I get hit, it comes from a wild swing or a crushing blow.  which is probably why we have such a hard time tanking ^^^^ Epic mobs.. I mean we avoid normal swings pretty well, but then the MOST powerful attacks get past Avoidance and lets face it.. We arent set up to take the Best shot a Mob can give.  While soloing I have about 3600 Hps and every time that shift boss drops a Crushing Blow for 910 it hurts.</P> <P>Message Edited by HL1240 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-12-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:33 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by HL1240 on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 AM</span>

[bonesbro]

Martial Discipline is not a raw +30% increase in your avoidance.  Rather, it means that you will deflect 30% more attacks than you otherwise would have.  So instead of blocking 10 attacks in a fight, you will block 10 attacks and you will see "a flaming biscuit tries to pierce YOU, but Legond blocks!" three times. <div></div>

[courtneysfost]

<P><FONT face=Century color=#339999>Our cleric in my group has stated that he notices a palpable difference when I tank vs when our Paladin tanks.  Because I take less damage, he uses less mana to keep me alive.  Also, when I tank and the cleric runs out of mana, I can just let my HPs go to red and then feign death.  The palidin takes it from there.  This keeps us all in the fight for those extra few moments that can make or break an encounter.  Once the pally whacks the beast for a few, I can stand up and mend myself and then jump back in the fight.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century color=#339999>Having a monk as the first line tank with another class as a back up makes a lot of sense.  But people tend to see one person in plate mail and another in some cloth looking thing, and that's the end of the discussion.  Quite silly really.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century color=#339999>~Sylus, the tailor monk (I weave, but I never bob...)</FONT></P>

[diamondma]

<div></div>100% agi? wonder how that would boil down on a raid mob. <div></div><p>Message Edited by diamondmage on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:16 PM</span>

[Rukor]

<DIV> <DIV>This is a pretty interesting thread so far and like it has been stated a lot of really good points have been brought up but I still think there is some points we really need to address on this..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and again let me state I have played a monk pretty much my entire EQ career in both 1 and 2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First assumption  is that both the guardian and the monk start with exactly 10000 hp together (again this is how I am reading the thread)  now I know we are not at this stage yet in EQ2 with toons with 10000hp (at least i think we are not heeh) I understand this is a number to help keep the math simple.  But the problem is all things being equal lets say a 50 pally and 50 monk with all uber gear the pally with end up with 1000 to 2000 more hp than the monk will due to armor.  Now I am throwing out self buffs and what not..just talking about base hp with + bonuses on the slot inventory items.  Thus pally has 12000 and monk would have 10000 this would be a more accurate assumption to work with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second assumption is the type of fights we will be in all things being equal so since we are both 50 then we can look at the avoidance for the monk against the midagation of the pally.  As long as we are fighting just equal level standard group mobs then yes we should be able to take less damage over time of the fight thus being better tanks.  But at this level I doubt many 50s are fighting basic mobs and we all know that the ^^^ and epic, group, raid mobs are extrememly buffed up thus making them greater than 50th level fights so since our MAX avoidance is for equal levels and we are fighting mobs that are theorically over our level the avoidance percentage starts to go down.  How much does it go down.. not real sure since we are talking theorically here with HP's and numbers.  BUT the observation in these fights would be that our avoidance will not be as effective thus we would be hit some percentage more than an equal fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third assumption is that there are good rolls and bad rolls now this is more of a fact that assumption but again if we do all things being equal then yes we can tank some but not over a long period of time.  Time being the biggest thing aginst any monk tank the longer the fight the more burst damage we will take and what do i mean by burst damage that is those bad rolls we are talking about.  Again lets take an even 50 standard group mob during the fight lets give the mobs a standard 4 attacks per round with a 25% change of riposting the attack mobs max hit is 800.  Pally gets 2 attacks per round (slow 2 hander ) Monk get 4 plus 1 special attack ( I am going to throw out the monk riposting and just take into account normal damage as over time</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mob pally tanking</DIV> <DIV>Round 1  </DIV> <DIV>80,80,80,110 = 350 dmg to pally</DIV> <DIV>Round 2</DIV> <DIV>95,80,175,90,riposte pally for 200 = 640 dmg to pally</DIV> <DIV>Round 3</DIV> <DIV>80,80,80,80 = 320 dmg to pally</DIV> <DIV>Round 4 (bad roll round)</DIV> <DIV>400,150,90,200, riposte pally for 500 = 1340 dmg to pally</DIV> <DIV>Total 4 rounds = 2650</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mob monk tanking</DIV> <DIV>Round 1</DIV> <DIV>miss,dodge,dodge,parry,riposte monk for 0  = 0 dmg to monk</DIV> <DIV>Round 2</DIV> <DIV>dodge,300,parry,100,risposte monk for 800 = 1200 dmg to monk</DIV> <DIV>Round 3</DIV> <DIV>dodge,dodge,dodge,dodge,riposte monk for 100 = 100 dmg to monk</DIV> <DIV>Round 4 (bad roll round)</DIV> <DIV>700,800,parry,600, riposte monk for 800 = 2900 dmg to monk</DIV> <DIV>Total 4 rounds = 4200</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see the overall damage to the monk is higher this shows the bursts damage that we monks "can" take not what we will at all times.  Now I only showed 4 rounds total made up no real numbers to back them up but expierence with playing a monk with a pally in eq2 for the last 5 months.  Plus short fights monk do ok so you need to really streach out each round as being in terms of multiple rounds.  Now the monk had more ripostes than the pally aginst him that leads me into the 4th assumption</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fourth assumption monks and pallys attack the same aginst the monbs.  That is the main reason for every round of attack the mob has more chances to riposte a monk since I generally have more attacks per round than most other classes my percentage for the mob to do reverse damage to me is greater.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So again to sum up.. sorry I have had to stop and start this post a few times since I am at work and have lost my overall train of throught.. over short rounds of combat aginst even or sightly less than even mobs monks do just fine as a primary tank in a very general sort of way.  But in groups most players do not want to fight even or less than even mobs they are usually at least 1-3 levels harder raid class mobs which we all now that Sony has buffed up a lot.  Even then some even level group mobs are extremely underconned even the the ^^ heroic titles.  So for those bigger mobs get you a good plate class with a good taunt and let them be the meat shield and let the monk do the damage and off tank on adds or in the really bad fight where there main tank dies have the monk be the secondary tank for a very short period of time until the fight is over or the main tank is back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Rukor on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:44 AM</span>

[stfields]

<HR> Martial Discipline is not a raw +30% increase in your avoidance.  <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That actually was going to be my follow up question...  I am aware that the aggregate avoidance% we see upon inspection appears to be the chance of avoiding by "base" (simply dodging), followed by the chance to block, then the chance to riposte, etc etc.  It isn't just the sum of our deflection/base/block/parry.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if a monk had all the buffs given to a guardian for a raid fight, why can't they take the hits?  Yes, our mitigation is indeed less.  And while we will avoid most non-special moves, the special moves that do hit us seem to one-shot us.  But, if we have all the buffs that a MT should have, why do we still get walloped for a LOT more? </DIV>

[bonesbro]

<DIV>The difference between 50% and 75% mitigation doesn't mean that we get hit 25% harder, it means we get hit twice as hard.  Given that avoidance seems to work significantly worse against mobs above you and against epic mobs, and that adds up to pain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking strategies around epic mobs primarily revolve around buffing the tank's Defense skill through the roof while debuffing the mob's melee skills to create a situation where the effective level difference between the mob and tank is so great that the tank is rarely hit.  The only challenge left is holding agro.</DIV>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>bonesbro wrote: ... <DIV>Tanking strategies around epic mobs primarily revolve around buffing the tank's Defense skill through the roof while debuffing the mob's melee skills to create a situation where the effective level difference between the mob and tank is so great that the tank is rarely hit. The only challenge left is holding agro.</DIV><hr></blockquote>This may well, in fact should, change with the upcoming Big Combat Revision. I am quite curious to see what raid strategies are developed when you <i>can't</i> buff/debuff to the point that the mob rarely hits you.

[bonesbro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bonesbro wrote:<BR>... <BR> <DIV>Tanking strategies around epic mobs primarily revolve around buffing the tank's Defense skill through the roof while debuffing the mob's melee skills to create a situation where the effective level difference between the mob and tank is so great that the tank is rarely hit. The only challenge left is holding agro.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This may well, in fact should, change with the upcoming Big Combat Revision. I am quite curious to see what raid strategies are developed when you <I>can't</I> buff/debuff to the point that the mob rarely hits you.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>We agree completely.</DIV>

[woo]

<DIV><FONT color=#330099></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rukor wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>This is a pretty interesting thread so far and like it has been stated a lot of really good points have been brought up but I still think there is some points we really need to address on this..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and again let me state I have played a monk pretty much my entire EQ career in both 1 and 2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First assumption  is that both the guardian and the monk start with exactly 10000 hp together (again this is how I am reading the thread)  now I know we are not at this stage yet in EQ2 with toons with 10000hp (at least i think we are not heeh) I understand this is a number to help keep the math simple.  But the problem is all things being equal lets say a 50 pally and 50 monk with all uber gear the pally with end up with 1000 to 2000 more hp than the monk will due to armor.  Now I am throwing out self buffs and what not..just talking about base hp with + bonuses on the slot inventory items.  Thus pally has 12000 and monk would have 10000 this would be a more accurate assumption to work with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc>Nono, you misunderstood me.  I was not refferring to hitpoints.  I wasn't even factoring hitpoints since hitpoints has nothing to do with how much damage you actually take.  They are mentioned later as a seperate issue.  I was saying over the course of X minutes (or seconds or hours) 10,000 damage was put out <EM>by the mob </EM>and then calculating how much of that damage would make it through to the tank.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second assumption is the type of fights we will be in all things being equal so since we are both 50 then we can look at the avoidance for the monk against the midagation of the pally.  As long as we are fighting just equal level standard group mobs then yes we should be able to take less damage over time of the fight thus being better tanks.  But at this level I doubt many 50s are fighting basic mobs and we all know that the ^^^ and epic, group, raid mobs are extrememly buffed up thus making them greater than 50th level fights so since our MAX avoidance is for equal levels and we are fighting mobs that are theorically over our level the avoidance percentage starts to go down.  How much does it go down.. not real sure since we are talking theorically here with HP's and numbers.  BUT the observation in these fights would be that our avoidance will not be as effective thus we would be hit some percentage more than an equal fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc>Avoidance scales down with higher level mobs, but so does mitigation.. and it does for all tanks.  So the tanking ability of both scales down and the 15% dmg taken difference would still be about the same.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third assumption is that there are good rolls and bad rolls now this is more of a fact that assumption but again if we do all things being equal then yes we can tank some but not over a long period of time.  Time being the biggest thing aginst any monk tank the longer the fight the more burst damage we will take and what do i mean by burst damage that is those bad rolls we are talking about.  Again lets take an even 50 standard group mob during the fight lets give the mobs a standard 4 attacks per round with a 25% change of riposting the attack mobs max hit is 800.  Pally gets 2 attacks per round (slow 2 hander ) Monk get 4 plus 1 special attack ( I am going to throw out the monk riposting and just take into account normal damage as over time</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mob pally tanking</DIV> <DIV>Round 1  </DIV> <DIV>80,80,80,110 = 350 dmg to pally</DIV> <DIV>Round 2</DIV> <DIV>95,80,175,90,riposte pally for 200 = 640 dmg to pally</DIV> <DIV>Round 3</DIV> <DIV>80,80,80,80 = 320 dmg to pally</DIV> <DIV>Round 4 (bad roll round)</DIV> <DIV>400,150,90,200, riposte pally for 500 = 1340 dmg to pally</DIV> <DIV>Total 4 rounds = 2650</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mob monk tanking</DIV> <DIV>Round 1</DIV> <DIV>miss,dodge,dodge,parry,riposte monk for 0  = 0 dmg to monk</DIV> <DIV>Round 2</DIV> <DIV>dodge,300,parry,100,risposte monk for 800 = 1200 dmg to monk</DIV> <DIV>Round 3</DIV> <DIV>dodge,dodge,dodge,dodge,riposte monk for 100 = 100 dmg to monk</DIV> <DIV>Round 4 (bad roll round)</DIV> <DIV>700,800,parry,600, riposte monk for 800 = 2900 dmg to monk</DIV> <DIV>Total 4 rounds = 4200</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see the overall damage to the monk is higher this shows the bursts damage that we monks "can" take not what we will at all times.  Now I only showed 4 rounds total made up no real numbers to back them up but expierence with playing a monk with a pally in eq2 for the last 5 months.  Plus short fights monk do ok so you need to really streach out each round as being in terms of multiple rounds.  Now the monk had more ripostes than the pally aginst him that leads me into the 4th assumption</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc>This doesnt use any math.. the game does.  A bad roll is when the 20% chance the mob has to hit us, rolls multiple times.  These are cancelled out by good rolls*, thus not being a factor in overall damage taken.  I mentioned spiking and why it can set a monk back, but remember any other class has a GREATER chance to have multiple bad rolls due to there avoidance being lower.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc>*Basically, in the lifetime of a monk -- he WILL avoid 80% of the hits.  Most of the time it will be a solid 8 for 2 and sometimes it will "spike", however this spike has to spike in both directions or else we wouldnt have 80% avoidance.. it would be called 40% instead.  Fact: we have 80% avoidance.. you cant use math saying we have less.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fourth assumption monks and pallys attack the same aginst the monbs.  That is the main reason for every round of attack the mob has more chances to riposte a monk since I generally have more attacks per round than most other classes my percentage for the mob to do reverse damage to me is greater.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc>This is choice of weapons.. monks can choose slower or faster weapons just as any other class can.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So again to sum up.. sorry I have had to stop and start this post a few times since I am at work and have lost my overall train of throught.. over short rounds of combat aginst even or sightly less than even mobs monks do just fine as a primary tank in a very general sort of way.  But in groups most players do not want to fight even or less than even mobs they are usually at least 1-3 levels harder raid class mobs which we all now that Sony has buffed up a lot.  Even then some even level group mobs are extremely underconned even the the ^^ heroic titles.  So for those bigger mobs get you a good plate class with a good taunt and let them be the meat shield and let the monk do the damage and off tank on adds or in the really bad fight where there main tank dies have the monk be the secondary tank for a very short period of time until the fight is over or the main tank is back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Rukor on <SPAN class=date_text>05-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:44 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[FamilyManFir]

Nice post, Woode ... except <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><b><u>Damage Taken</u></b>Guardians, self-buffed, come closer to 70% avoidance, 60% mitigation. (numbers taken from a little searching of the Guardians board). This changes their results:<u><i>Guardian</i></u><blockquote>10,000 damage. 70% of that is avoided, which brings down to 3,000 damage going to the guardian. The 3,000 damage is mitigated down to <u>1,200 damage taken.</u></blockquote>So Guardians, by themselves, take the same amount of damage as Monks. However, with their higher mitigation, the "bad streaks" don't hurt as much and, to top it off, they have more HP to soak up those bad rolls until the healer reacts and heals them up again.Finally, to put the icing on the cake, in many groups Guardians can (currently) get their Defense buffed to the point where the 5% avoidance advantage Monks have is trivial.This is why I am quite interested to see the eventual results of the Big Combat Revision that's under development on Test. I'll be curious to see if the caps on defensive buffs (Defense, Parry, Block and [for some inane reason] Deflection) remain. I'll be interested to see if plate tanks have a harder time dealing with Stuns and Stifles, and if Monks have an easier time (something I expect, but who knows?).<b><u>Aggro Management</u></b>It was already mentioned earlier in the thread, but group buffs (yes, the 10-minute ones and even 15-minute ones) create huge aggro, much more than individual buffs. Guardians get 4 of these group buffs (1 x 15 min. duration, 2 x 10 min. duration, 1 x 45 sec. duration) while Monks get only 1.Thus, Guardians get an edge over Monks in both Taunts and Buffs. Only in Damage do Monks do better than Guardians regarding aggro, and that damage is mostly focussed on single targets. That's why Monks have to work harder than Guardians to keep aggro; particularly with groups of mobs. Monks' Taunts do fine for beginning aggro, but when Tanking Monks have to switch amongst mobs a lot, hitting each mob with 2 or 3 specials, to build hate with each one to keep the aggro.All of this IMHO, of course, and subject to rebuttal. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[zabor]

I think monks are best for the normal xp groups, as they tend to get less damage, as shown in the calculations above, and they got more dps, thus ending the fight sooner. But when it comes down to raiding, avoidance is too risky.A mob can kill a monk with a lucky roll, two-shotting us at best. And over the course of a 30 minute long fight, the chances are pretty good, that such a bad roll for us monks will happen.I tanked fyst twice, the first time i was doing quite good, until he hit me for 3.6k and 1,5k damage at the same time, and killing me, while i still was in the green. The second time he hit me 5 times during the whole fight.

[woo]

<P>The numbers i used were average guardians.. like I said if i were to use a well equipped guardian vs a well equipped monk, the monks' numbers would go up as well (closer to 82% avoidance / 50% mitigation vs 75% / 40%) which would still put monks ahead.  I can guarantee a mediocre equipped guardian doesn't have 70% avoidance, and i can guarantee that the average monk does have 75% (without buffs <EM>my</EM> avoidance is 77.9)</P> <P>As to taunting, i don't doubt for a second that both the fighter and crusader classes have better taunts.</P> <P>But buffs.. both guardians and monks get a lot of those 10 min buffs and concentration slot buffs, but these generally arent very mana effecient.  A monk has the quick cast buffs that he has to cast at the begining of each battle pretty much, and they add that little extra aggro.  I am not sure who has more of the "big" buffs, but I don't see many guardians spamming all 10 (or however many they have) of there buffs just to get back aggro.  If it takes that many then theres something else wrong.</P> <P>I guess i was to vague on the buffs section, and all fighters really get the same amount of buffs (to the point where it really doesnt matter if 1 has 5 and the other has 4 because its just more mana effecient to use taunts or complete group HOs) ... except the 'quick cast' buffs that monk gets, which i was proposing gives the monk an edge in that department.</P><p>Message Edited by woode on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:20 PM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>woode wrote:<P>The numbers i used were average guardians.. like I said if i were to use a well equipped guardian vs a well equipped monk, the monks' numbers would go up as well (closer to 82% avoidance / 50% mitigation vs 75% / 40%) which would still put monks ahead. I can guarantee a mediocre equipped guardian doesn't have 70% avoidance, and i can guarantee that the average monk does have 75% (without buffs <EM>my</EM> avoidance is 77.9)</P><hr></blockquote>Hmmm, could be. I'm sure no expert on Guardians. I just did a search on the Guardians board and found some numbers that Guardians were posting for comparison purposes. It did look, though, like the <i>average</i> numbers for Guardians (not well-equipped) was around 70% avoidance / 60% mitigation, but I could certainly be off.<blockquote><hr><P>As to taunting, i don't doubt for a second that both the fighter and crusader classes have better taunts.</P> <P>But buffs.. both guardians and monks get a lot of those 10 min buffs and concentration slot buffs, but these generally arent very mana effecient. A monk has the quick cast buffs that he has to cast at the begining of each battle pretty much, and they add that little extra aggro. I am not sure who has more of the "big" buffs, but I don't see many guardians spamming all 10 (or however many they have) of there buffs just to get back aggro. If it takes that many then theres something else wrong.</P> <P>I guess i was to vague on the buffs section, and all fighters really get the same amount of buffs (to the point where it really doesnt matter if 1 has 5 and the other has 4 because its just more mana effecient to use taunts or complete group HOs) ... except the 'quick cast' buffs that monk gets, which i was proposing gives the monk an edge in that department.</P><p>Message Edited by woode on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:20 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Allow me to be more specific.Guardians get 4 group-buff lines of CAs: Guardian's Call, Call of Command, Battle Cry, and Do or Die. They get 1 solo-buff line, Iron Will. Only Battle Cry is mana-efficient, but they can create enormous hate being group-buffs.Monks get 1 group-buff line, Wisdom of Zephyl. They get 2 solo-buff lines: Face of the Mountain and Karmic Focus. WoZ is probably not mana-efficient while FotM and KF are, but the latter two are solo only, generating less hate.In an emergency (say a multi-mob group add) Guardians can pop off 4 group-buffs in addition to their AOE Taunt that build enormous hate, while Monks have to really work at it to handle the same situation. I really have to argue that Guardians are better off in the buff department than Monks regarding aggro management.