You can't Tank

[ServalC]

<DIV>So I was in a pickup group last night, me (30 Monk), 27 Templar and 30 Wizard,,,so Templar says to us OK guys I'll MT you guys do dps. I responded back and said "I will not be an off tank to a Templar", "I am a tank not you". I left the group. Just thought you guys on this board would get a chuckle out of that.</DIV>

[Fev]

good to see the "plate armor is the only way" mentality is still alive and well...

[stfields]

<P>That mentality is hard to keep out of sight.  While I am not end-game raid level just yet, from many accounts that I've seen, monks can't tank the level 50+ ^^^ raid mobs (of course, if any monk would like to say differently, I'm all ears!).  </P> <P>But, because Guardians are the "end-game tank," people seem to think that makes them the only tank.  SK/berserker/Pally are just secondary to them...and we shouldn't tank at all.</P> <P>I've had a blast tanking both orange mobs in a full group and blue mobs in a duo at 45.  I need no secondary tank, just a group that is smart and willing to see my hp drop by 1/3 after the initial "BOOM" from a mob.  </P>

[sglant]

<DIV>While it may not mean much, I tanked CT last night (just the entrance stuff) at lvl 38 (had 42templar and 41ranger with me), and the templar said I did great for being a lower level tank. The ranger did steal aggro from time to time, but overall, it went well, and no deaths (only one time we had to run away)</DIV>

[ChaosDivine]

<DIV>Hi Guys, ever since I hit level 20 this is all I've ever heard, "Monks cant tank", Only real time I end up having an issue with this is when I'm in pick-up groups, when I'm hunting with guildies they all know what Monks are all about, they know how I fight and expect to see a drop in health. I'll also point out I'm the only Monk so far in my guild *grin* And after months of everyone seeing the amount of steady ruin I smack down on mobs people in my guild are making Monk alts and say they love it. Sure when I'm in a group and a guardian steps up to be MT I'll step aside, hell he can have at it for all I care let me sit back and grab the adds and practice my Kung-fu *giggle*, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But its the pick up groups that can really give us a bad name these ppl who dont understand what a Monk can and cant do. For the above poster I would have said sure Mr. Templar you can tank *grin* Then I would have simply stole argo from him and tanked it to show that I could, if he was slow on a heal I would suddenly feel the urge to "Play dead" and let him tank it then leave.</DIV>

[HL12]

<DIV> <HR> I responded back and said "I will not be an off tank to a Templar", "I am a tank not you". I left the group. <HR> </DIV> <P>Well ServalCat the next time you get a templar that says you cant tank and he wants to tank... take the chance to educate him.  Say ok, Lets go.  then after the first pull, you out dps him, out taunt him, and down right out tank him.  Will he really be able to out agro you? Hell no  Whats he gonna do?  taunt the mob off?  not.. and once the mob starts hitting you whats he gonna do?  not heal you?  not.. after 10 or so pulls like that he will understand his place and he will know that you are the MT.  Hell if you fight the right mobs, pull agro off him and then say ok I will MT and you TEMPLAR do DPS since I wont be needing heals or you can even let him pull every time and if he cant hold agro then be like hmm why cant ya hold agro over me do ya think???? Cus I have Taunts - Like a MT should.</P> <P>Even if he gets [Removed for Content] and leaves.. Im sure he will think twice next time a monk says they want to MT.  but to walk away and not educate well.. It just lets the "Plate Is Great" thoughts continue. And it will continues all the way up the ladder to 50 if no one SHOWS them different.  I have talked, grouped and seen people who are 40+ and when they ask who is the main tank and I say me they go Monks dont tank.  Then 20 pulls later they go OMG I cant believe it your actually doing a good job.  I've had players in my group knowingly and purposely not buff me while I MT and try their hardest to pull agro from me while I tank, trying to prove that Monks cant tank.  I have out tanked SK/Bruiser/Pally/Gaurds/Zerks in many different situations.</P> <P>Just the other day, I joined a pick up group in Runnyeye (Mob lvls 33-43 ish) and the cleric said ok now we just need a tank.  I replied Exolia <<<< MT  mind you I was lvl 40 and Runnyeye is a cake walk for a lvl 40 with a group.  The main healer said hmm no we got a Tank coming a 38 Pally so I said hmm ok.  About 20 mins in the pally was getting beat, not holding agro but he was alive.  We got to the BrewMieser lvl 39 Heroic (named mob next to the 200 goblin quest) and the pally pulled him.  Well 2 mins into the fight the pally was doing ok with about 95% Health and then he was insta dead.  and before I could say I got this the scout evac'ed. He checked his logs and found out he got hit for 3000+ dmg.  On the way back down (Me tanking of course since the pally was dead) I said let me give it a shot.  The cleric was up in arms.. OMG do you see how much he got hit for etc etc your gonna die.  the scout was like we cant do it till evac is back up. The general attitude in group was well if she wants to die and we evac.. let her.  After rezzing the pally and the pally now dropping his buffs on me.  I tanked the mob and at most took a shot for about 1800 rather then the 3000+ the pally took. The rest of the night I tanked, no questions asked. No deaths, Held Agro no problem, All walked away with Xp, Loot and Fun.  but more importantly EVERYONE in that group that doubted if monks can tank, Now know we can and cant deny it.  All in all Cat. The next time a Templar tells you to off tank to him or anyone else and you want to tank, Take advantage of the situation and prove your MT material.</P>

[ServalC]

Thanks for all your replys. Yes, I could of stayed in grp and proved him wrong, but it was late, got tired of hearing that I wasnt even considered to MT (with no other tank in grp, like in past grps) and his attitude just [Removed for Content] me off and I left. I made a Monk cause I thought that all warrior classes could MT in different ways (at least that is what SOE told us when game was launched). But I have read alot with the differences of Guardians, Zerkers, Monks, etc. for high end game raids I feel that I picked the wrong class to be MT in end game.

[Ronin]

Ok, on this subject I have a slightly different opinion based from the fact that I'm a Bruiser and not a Monk.  so here goes.... Monks that I have personally grouped with, do tend to tank on average, very well. Some have issues with power use but other then that, its a decent and stable tanking class. However, I'm mostly glad you all say "Monks" and not "Brawlers" can tank.  Cause when it comes down to it, me as a Bruiser can take also, but  if there is a second tank class in my group, even one a level or two lower, general rule of thumb for me is to let them tank.  I do this for a very good reason as well.  Monks come with Utility buffs for the group that raise defensive stats alot more then Bruisers can. Where a bruiser shines is in the fact that we debuff with some attacks. Namely at my level "35" I can consistantly keep most normal Xp mobs Stifled and melee debuffed throughout the entire fight minus a few seconds between aplications.  These debuffs come from secondary efects of my attacks, two actually come to mind, Eye gouge and Throat Punch. Eye Gouge = -20 skill in Slashing, Crushing and Piercing. This effectively lowers the mobs melee effectiveness by 4 levels or 20 points. This can turn a lvl40^^ into the same effective dmg as a lvl36^^ this skill has a 60 second recharge so its applied every fight mostly, and let  me tell you, its noticable when its in effect to. Throat Punch = Stifle or Silence however you want to look at it. It removes the targets ability to use special attacks. Which as we all know, most mobs do the biggest portion of thier damage from special attacks, just like all player classes. The effect is roughly 10 second duration, with a skill that recycles in 10 seconds. Given lag you will have this  effect on a mob roughly 1 second after it wears off, so most mobs tend to get in atleast 1 special attack every  10 seconds instead of thier normal combo's of them. Also with a Bruisers stuns and such, if you watch your recycle timer on Throat Punch you can stun for 1-3 seconds just as its about to recycle effectively  removing that 1 per 10 second special for most targets. Ok, so why do I perfer to not tank even if I'm the highest level tank class in group? I'll explain with notes from a fight in a Log file. Paraphrasing to save space and time. Fight is being tanked by a 33 Paladin, I'm a 35 bruiser DPS roll w/ debuffs. The fight took place in Runnyeye, some lvl 37^^ named Mino.  1 healer in group, and two casters, with Pal tank and Bruiser DPS. That Mino on average can hit for 200-600+ with its special attacks, on a 33 paly thats roughly 1/4 of your HP per special if it lands for the 600+ which it would due to your level being below the mobs by a few.  We had good DPS with casters and myself pooring out damage so the fight lasted about 1 minute.  Pally Pulled the mob and taunted once to gain solid agro, the taunts was via his group buffs from a hotkey, which supply more agro then any one single taunt. What then took place was No attacks was made, instead I used my Intimidate skill to Stun the mob for 15 seconds, which allowed me to stop him before he could reach the group and land his first atack on the pally. I then steped behind him and Landed Eye gouge, to break the stun. This set in effect his effective level was like a lvl33^^ for melee damage instead of lvl37^^ that he was. Soon as that landed Throat punch went off from que'd attacks, and now he was stifled for 10 seconds, All the rest joined in and the beat down started. During the entire fight, the mob mainly landed melee only attacks when they could hit due to his melee skill being debuffed, and the entire fight he only landed 4 special attacks on the Paly, the Templar with us used a total of 4 heals the entire fight, even when I accidently stole agro with mob at 1/4 his HP. The fight would have been alot harder if I had tanked, and tried to land my ddebuffs from the front as my chance to hit drops about 50% due to mob level and fact of blocks, parry, etc.  All in all there are some times when tanking is good but times when steping back and letting some one else do it is better. Even a Templar can hold agro well with buffs and heals over a good tank, when they time them to land before a tank can land taunts too. You'll find they mobs you can't pull off a healer or caster is cause of those buffs landing which in effect can out agro any taunt if landed before a mob reaches the group just after a pull with ranged attack. Those times that Templar with plate armor can effectively become a better tank letting Brawler classes shine in thier DPS role, taking mobs out faster then if the Brawler's tanked, so in effect, observe the mobs you'll be fighting, take note your skills and if you as a group use all you have to its fullest, the highest level tank class or tank class in general may not be the best suited to tank the encounter. Its all situational, there are times when other classes can out tank you, don't get mad  about it, instead use that as a focus point to then use your abilities to thier fullest to help the situation. I can't speak for all on this but I know as a Bruiser I hate being claimed a tank, then scorned for not performing to someone standards, IE that all tanks should tank equally. I am a tank class, but in no way equa; to the others. I am a special breed of tanks, I can only tank well when my debuffs land and effectively lower the effectiveness of the target and keep them from performing. Guardians are a breed thier own in thier ability to just absorb damage, however not everyone can act like a Guardian and a monk or Bruiser that tries will fail. We tank by out performing the target and using our abilities to thier fullest. Anyhow this is my views on the matter. . . hope it gives a little insight to how  some play thier classes, and think. <div></div>

[Ronin]

<div></div><div></div>Bah stupid double post <div></div><p>Message Edited by RoninDF on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[HL12]

Nice point RoninDF.. I gotta say I was impressed when I saw two lvl 35 bruisers duo'ing the named lvl 34 heroic Tempered Clay Golem in Varsoon. specially after I saw plenty of groups lvl 35ish get wiped by the same mob.

[Fev]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stfields wrote:<BR> <P>That mentality is hard to keep out of sight.  While I am not end-game raid level just yet, from many accounts that I've seen, monks can't tank the level 50+ ^^^ raid mobs (of course, if any monk would like to say differently, I'm all ears!).  </P> <P>But, because Guardians are the "end-game tank," people seem to think that makes them the only tank.  SK/berserker/Pally are just secondary to them...and we shouldn't tank at all.</P> <P>I've had a blast tanking both orange mobs in a full group and blue mobs in a duo at 45.  I need no secondary tank, just a group that is smart and willing to see my hp drop by 1/3 after the initial "BOOM" from a mob.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>nail on the head so to speak. that is the mentality and one of the reasons we are not seen as tanks. i would venture to say that on the rare occassion we do get smacked by the mob, especially a CA from it, people throw their hands up and cry for a platie not realizing we avoided upwards of 75-80% of the mobs attacks until then. but, meh... </P> <P>i will concede that monks tanking end-game lvl 50 epic mobs may not be the best course of action, but lets face it... most of the community (not speaking about you hardcores on this forum) in EQ2 is not close to end game anything. end game is only one small part of this game... the journey there is most of it. just sad that monks are stereotyped so early on and it is very hard to break that mentallity in regular leveling sessions making that journey and those opinions of us as tank rougher than most. </P>

[Tstorm]

One of my in-game friends is a Templar.  He certainly tanks when he's solo as well as being the tank when he's grouping with our Enchanter friend.  When I (40 monk) am in the group though, it is crystal clear that I am the best tank out of the three of us.  Everytime I've watched the Templar tank, he's having to fiddle with healing himself every round or two. Of course I have been in groups with other Fighter classes that tank way better than I can as a Monk.  While I'd certainly love to tank better (who wouldn't?), I'm pretty happy with the balance monks have between tank and damage compared to other classes. That is certainly hilarious though that a Templar would want to be the tank on purpose in a group with a Monk! <span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

Just wanted to chime in here cause even though I am a Guardian I am really getting annoyed with the mentality of players when it comes to the 6 tank types. Some background, I almost always 99%of the time just group with some friends..I am the only fighter so there is never an issue over who is MT.. (ok the Fury tries but its not really her fault =P)  Anyhow, last night I joined a pickup DFC raid hoping to finish off some heritage quests...I was watching as the 2 groups were formed and when it was time to start we had me 44 Guardian, 44 Pally and 40 Guardian as the only fighters...So naturally everyone else started in with asking who is going to be MT....I expected the raid leader to ask Pally and Myself to decide but NO the raid channel was just spammed with "Wulfgarr of course", "Wulfgarr right"?, etc.  I doubt anyone even bothered to examine the two of us to figure out who was best equiped, etc.  Hell I doubt they would even know what to look for =P That REALLY [Removed for Content] me off and although it was I that  would make the best choice I honestly wanted to say..."Nope I dont want to tank, i feel like being DPS today, ill back up the Pally".  =P I know from now on when I am in a situation where I and some other fighter(s) are of equal level, etc...Im gonna /tell with them and we are gonna decide who is MT...Screw the rest of the idiots that still think they are in EQ1. Ok sorry for the slight thread hijack but I thought my experience was somewhat pertinent to this discussion, just from a different point of view.   I am a guardian that is getting [Removed for Content] at the automatic assumption that I am MT =P <div></div>

[woo]

<DIV>i just tanked the everfrost boat ride at 34 with 1 healer.  i was chosen to tank over a 35 zerker even <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (every spot of my gear is all legendary/fabled cept weapons that add 10str/agi vs zerker had AQ armor etc lol)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so its not always ignorant newbs.. just 99.9% of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as to templars wanting to tank.. iv been in that situation probably 10-15 times now.  i usually leave the group and they /tell me that im a newb.  sometimes scouts want to tank over me even..</DIV><p>Message Edited by woode on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 PM</span>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>woode wrote:<div></div> <div>i just tanked the everfrost boat ride at 34 with 1 healer.  i was chosen to tank over a 35 zerker even <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (every spot of my gear is all legendary/fabled cept weapons that add 10str/agi vs zerker had AQ armor etc lol)</div> <hr></blockquote> Ewww.. AQ armor still at 35?  I wont tank if any of my armor is less than white..it isn't fair to the group or the healer... There are a lot of misconceptions out there, I have even gotten invited to a group with my monk because of the AQ armor look...  then in group chat after "now all we need is a tank"....  Oh, I tanked for that group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[Eleutheri]

<DIV>Anytime someone thinks they can out tank me... I just taunt and show them the Truth... Cept on those 53+Triple up raid mobs  (Ouch) !</DIV>

[Vampa]

<DIV>A healer can easily prove that monks can't tank by simply not healing them..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You die  giving monks a bad name.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(rerolled a guard)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ronin]

A healer refusing to heal is stupid, and thats when, as the evil and down right stubern Bruiser that I am, stands up for us Brawlers and says ok fine . . You tank it . . and promptly Feigns' . . . Not really what I do though have thought about it several times. However it is the players right to stand up for what they believe, if a healer doesn't want you to tank, so be it. I'll step aside and let someone else tank. I can tank when I have to, Short term tanking isn't bad with rate which mobs die most times. But  I'll be  danged if I let someone tank who I know can't handle it. SPecially if its something I would fear to tank. That doesn't happen alot, I regularly am accidently stealing agro off my normal groups tank, And doing so, means I'm tanking something 3-5 levels higher then I am. Sure I can hit them fine, with my stance I use though in DPS role, I have raised level for melee and lowered level for defense, I crank out a ton of damage, in bursts just big enough to pace dps with retaining agro on the tank. If I do grab agro, I press my bob and weave as fast as I can to get it to fire off, and most times pray that the Orange ^^ isn't going to run over me. Can we tank, Yes, long term fight tank? Not really Can be done, but why waste the effort for something easier done by someone else not to mention, waste my damage abilities. If i'm the best man for the job, I step up, other wise, let the better man have his momment, and hehe try to keep agro on him, yes i know thats hard sometimes. Oh . . side point, how dare anyone in my groups tell me not to peel off the assist to pickup other mobs. I dang well best be picking them up, I can mez, fear, and out right own some mobs in a matter of seconds, If i'm not picking them up, well I just don't feel I'm doing my job . . . <div></div>

[Plague Mast]

<P>42 paly here throwing my 2 cp in.  When grouped with any other fighters approximately my level or one level higher I almost ALWAYS insist on being the MT.  Sometimes when they are 2 levels above me.  There are 3 reasons for this.  </P> <P>1) i suck at dps, while all other classes of fighter are better at it than me </P> <P>2) I buy rare player crafted gear and can take a hell of a beating  </P> <P>3) We can heal somewhat, and its better to have your tank taking heal aggro than to have your dps getting more aggro...</P> <P>People really need to look at equipment/stats more when selecting main tank.  So often I get the assumption that the guardian in the group will be the MT if he is equal or slightly higher than me, when in reality I should be the MT.</P> <P>Case in point: me at lvl 42, guardian at level 43, and Illusionist at 36 take on a named mob that is blue to me.  Guardian says that he will tank "they barely hit him".  I gave him Grant of Armor, and buffed him up and he still went splat in a hurry.  Next I said let me try it, alas sucess.  Upon further study he was wearing fulginate to my ebon and feysteel (still better than fulginate in early 40's) and he wasn't using a shield (duh heavy armor classes should always use a shield when MT, unless group has way 2 many healers and not enough dps.   zero healers = use shield).</P> <P>When someone asks who the main tank is, if you haven't played with both fighters recenly, make you you inspect them before answering...might also ask them who WANTS to MT....</P>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>We can tank we can tank!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://eq2awakening.com/images/storage/maintank.jpg"></DIV> <DIV><BR>... okay fine I cheated... but still a fun picture</DIV>

[Ronin]

I don't mean this to bash the previous post at all so don't take this wrong. But I believe showing you can take on a solo mob maybe 1-2 levels about your own is not a proper example of ability to tank. Now, What I have seen that Impresses me and shows that at best classes still need alot of balancing.  Is the fact that those ^^ lvl34 Bee's in EL, I have seen a Mystic tanking them solo. He was lvl36 which means they are blue ^^ heroic mobs to him and he stood toe to toe with them and strait up owned them. Another example of unblance in game atm, is when I was passing through TS other day. Witnessed a Templar tanking a ^^ lvl22 Skeleton in the dead river. Sadly to my amazement, his duo partner was a 21 Guardian dual wielding.  Now ok with that info your probably thinking the Templar must have been higher level then the Mob. I thought so as well, but he was only lvl20! Level 20! Thats nuts, not even a good monk or Bruiser can toe to toe with something 2 levels higher, specially Heroic class without atleast getting beat on pretty bad. Seeing things like this at best disapoint me, not because of the inbalance, but cause others who happen to see it also gather the idea and pass it along much the same. Why get a tank? Heck we got one tank, why we need two in group? Why even get a tank? We got a healer who can tank in his heavy armor? Ask yourself this. When facing the mobs you face most day to day, do you find yourself lacking sometimes? WOuld you trade off some dps for more tanking ability? Or in effect, would you rather them put  Brawler classes into thier respectful place as a true scout class. Light armor, better tanking ability scouts with moderate DPS. To me I'd almost love this ability. ATM we lack a true place in my thoughts. We suffer the worst of both worlds. Lowest tanking ability of all tank classes and in some cases  lower DPS as well. Just seems to me we are more fit to be a true scout, with Feign death instead of Pathfinding and tanking ability inplace of big utility buffs or the higher end DPS. Don't get me wrong, I love being a Bruiser. I can tank if I need to, I can take one heck of a beating doing it also time to time. Then othertimes seems mobs can touch me. I've played on several occasions when it seems like I get hit every other time the mob swings, and get hit hard. Then there are times when I accidently over agro, and end up tanking 500 times better then the tank the mob was on. I'm not yet of raiding level, but I'm starting to see my place on raids.  I'm learning when to hold back my attacks, and when to unleash them and pound out my damage in a massive wave.  I do have one gripe about my class, which is namely our skills we do offer to groups and raids, which offer the most use, we can't use. Can't use my Bruisers Throat Punch on epic targets, cause it stifles. Can't use my Haymaker attack either, cause it carries a 3 second stun. Whats is funny, is I can Intimidate a epic target.  Why take away the whole skill for one effect, instead should just make the mobs resistant to those types of effects and still leave those damage attacks open to us. those two attacks when on a epic class mob, effectively take away over 300 damage from us unless we resort to going to our older grey skills to still do damage. I do that but its a big reduction in our ability. Are Brawlers tanks? yeah, short term we hold probably the highest tanking ability of all tank classes, for fights 20 seconds or less in length. In sustained fights, we come in last place. Just think its time we was given the use of all our skills instead of holding us back. I mean it stands to reason, brawlers are Focused honed fighting machines, skilled in thier arts, and trained and hardened, stead fast in our ability and should be able to do those things to anyone we face, cause we have train and honed our skills to allow us to do just that. <div></div>

[Ronin]

<div></div><div></div>Stupid double post again . . . silly net <div></div><p>Message Edited by RoninDF on <span class=date_text>05-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[Dandeli]

<P>Is this any better?</P> <P><IMG src="http://www.eq2awakening.com/images/storage/icantank.jpg"></P> <P>Of course its a 32^^ only two level aboves me. The lowest at that camp. We also dropped a few Tempered Clays 34-35^^ with no problem. That was nice, 5 levels above me, hard hits, tons of hitpoints, I tanked it fine. It doesnt look like my healers are hurting for mana. Throughout the entire night, we chain pulled with healers picking their nose while the dps were choking for power. And I kept pulling even still, with out our combat powers it was still better for us to keep killing with just our melee weapons. I tanked adds fine, and never had a problem holding aggro with two equal level swashbucklers in my group.</P> <P>I the problem I see mostly out of monks is, they love that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Gi. They dont want to let it go. They dont pay much attention to their equipment. Then were looking at some guardians who are all over having higher mitgiation and keeping their armor at least crafted in quality. I seen a level 50 monk in their T3 quest armor the other day, of course they dont tank very well...<BR><BR>If you can tell, just like a guardian would, I pay much attention to my equipment. And often I'm chosen to tank over a common pick up plate tank, unless they got their full suit of feysteel and higher level then me. Then Im better off pulling up another stance and laying down some damage, which I also do very well.</P> <DIV>The earlier picture I thought was just cool. 63% mitigation is good for a monk solo. Though it was Hero's armor =p. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a guardian also, lvl 40. And I play a Templar 45. I've seen tanking through many different viewpoints. </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Dandelize on <span class=date_text>05-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:17 PM</span>

[woo]

<P>guardian w/ 60% avoidance, 60% mitigation.. thats 120% (average mid 30s)</P> <P>monk w/ 80% avoidance, 40% mitigation.. thats 120% (average mid 30s)</P> <P> </P> <P>seems equal to me..  someone should put a parser of damage-taken over a couple hours of a guardian and a monk both nicely equipped.  tomorrow i will find a nice group and parse it for a couple hours.</P>

[Dandeli]

<DIV>Well a guardian with 60/60 is using a shield...<BR>Thats something to take into consideration too, they've already sacrificed damage to some degree </DIV>

[zabor]

<blockquote><hr>woode wrote: <P>guardian w/ 60% avoidance, 60% mitigation.. thats 120% (average mid 30s)</P> <P>monk w/ 80% avoidance, 40% mitigation.. thats 120% (average mid 30s)</P> <P> </P> <P>seems equal to me..  someone should put a parser of damage-taken over a couple hours of a guardian and a monk both nicely equipped.  tomorrow i will find a nice group and parse it for a couple hours.</P><hr></blockquote>It's not that easy!Guardian avoids 60%, so 40% of the time he gets hit.Of those 40%, he mitigates 60%, leaving 16% of the mob's raw dps output actually hurting him.A Monk avoids 80%, 20% of the hits get through.40% get mitigated, so only 12% of the mob's damage get through. In theory, we should even be able to tank better than Guardians (with the numbers from the example taken from above, but those are quite correct most of the time).Even better, we don't get stifled/stunned/feared as much as guardians as we aren't hit that much.

[TimeWalk]

<P>Ok I've just got to speak up  as a 44 templar  I'm no tank  not at least in the light of a ber, pallie guard etc... But I quite often tank  in groups because I'm a WELL outfitted  templar  my mit and somewhat avoidance is way higher then many tanks in my level range.</P> <P>I group with a 43 guard all the time and >I<  pull and take the first hit and let him taunt it/them off me  and I always tank magic mobs while he does dps  I dont have taunts and I dont want em.. but templars CAN tank  it's all a matter of what your targeting and who is best SUITED to the task not who has the biggest ummmmmm EGO </P> <P>It all boils down to this pick the best tank in the group for the mob your targeting...  not who is SUPPOSEDLY the tank in the group   if I can resist all the spells and the tank can loose half his hp to the same attack I'm gonna tank because it's the smarter choice not the guy with the biggest ummmm HEAD</P>

[Cron]

<span><blockquote><hr>RoninDF wrote: Another example of unblance in game atm, is when I was passing through TS other day. Witnessed a Templar tanking a ^^ lvl22 Skeleton in the dead river. Sadly to my amazement, his duo partner was a 21 Guardian dual wielding.  Now ok with that info your probably thinking the Templar must have been higher level then the Mob. I thought so as well, but he was only lvl20! Level 20! Thats nuts, not even a good monk or Bruiser can toe to toe with something 2 levels higher, specially Heroic class without atleast getting beat on pretty bad. <hr></blockquote> That's not necessarily true.  At one point, I was level 21 hunting level 27 lieutenant skels over by RoV for a day.  I kept commenting to my guild at the time that I just couldn't believe that I was taking them.  It wasn't taking everything I had either.</span><div></div>

[ServalC]

OK,, thanks for all your replys from my original post. It does sound like Templars are unbalanced in the way of being able to be a very good healer and being bale to tank. Something wrong with this picture? If all players knew this when they first created a character - I think we  all should make a Templar,, since they can heal great and tank. Why would you choose any other race. So, lets all create new characters and make a Templar (its the ultimate best class). Don't need any other class. In fact why doesn't SOE just have Templars to choose from? Heck you don't need any other class,,, Templars can do it all?

[Ronin]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cronon wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Ronindf wrote: Another example of unblance in game atm, is when I was passing through TS other day. Witnessed a Templar tanking a ^^ lvl22 Skeleton in the dead river. Sadly to my amazement, his duo partner was a 21 Guardian dual wielding.  Now ok with that info your probably thinking the Templar must have been higher level then the Mob. I thought so as well, but he was only lvl20! Level 20! Thats nuts, not even a good monk or Bruiser can toe to toe with something 2 levels higher, specially Heroic class without atleast getting beat on pretty bad. <hr></blockquote> That's not necessarily true.  At one point, I was level 21 hunting level 27 lieutenant skels over by RoV for a day.  I kept commenting to my guild at the time that I just couldn't believe that I was taking them.  It wasn't taking everything I had either.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>The mobs you are refering to outside ROV are solo con encounters, not comparable to a Heroic con encounter. All Two up ^^ Mobs are much much  stronger then any solo con of comparable level. And as to what the Templar said above, Congrats, you can tank, for  now . .. WHen next live update hits with changes to parry  I wouldn't try it then. Besides, Templar are not designed to tank, they are designed to be able to absorb short term agro due to over healing or adds. They shouldn't be a tank at all, atleast not in a balanced enviroment. Now question in your case where you find yourself with a tank that is taking alot of damage from a certain damage type, well  more then likely its either the level of the tank, or thier equipment. Tanks in general suffer greatly at 3 key level ranges. 19-21 is the first, where your starting AQ armor and trying to buy up temp armor till your into your AQ armor. Then again at 29-31, you are faced with slightly less useful player made armor till 32-33 but also if don't go to it from your AQ armor you miss out on valuable stats . Again from 39-41ish, same as the 29-31 stage, new armor isn't up to par and old is lower stats.  This is where priests and casters, even scouts have advantages. You can put 10str 10agi on a paper sack, put a scout inside it and you have a well equiped scout. Same for priests or casters. Try that with a tank, and your going to need a mob to clean up your group, cause a mob that was pulled just spilt you all. Not saying however that its not ice to see Priests tanking time to time, Myself I'm glad that they can, cause I've seem some no agro having tanks out there in my time. But, to effectively need another class over a tank for any reason, is IMO a bit unbalanced. Maybe armor should round out faster for tanks to let them have suitable tanking ability for each new armor range a little faster. I mean if your wearing the best you can buy at level 30, its probably a little lacking compared to what your old armor was mitigation wise. This is unless you are rich and can pay up for Rare crafted armors. Anyhow just clarifing. . . </span><div></div>

[ServalC]

I am a 31 Monk,, what armor would be best for me to MT and solo? I love the AQ look but know I can't keep forever. Should I be wearing quest armor (Zek, EL)? What player crafted armor is there? Should I wait till lvl 32 fro player crafted? Also can anyone guide me as far as spell/skill upgrades? Meaning this kick skill replaces this kick spell, etc? 

[Dandeli]

<DIV>I play a 45 Templar, and Tanking is not a feasible option. Throught the whole fight, against something near even to me, I will be chain casting heals on myself. Sure by the end, the group has killed it, but I'm out of mana. Sure I tanked it, but I'd rather be near full power to chain pull more exp.</DIV>

[TimeWalk]

<DIV>I think you guys are misreading that I was saying in a round about way.. I was saying you should pick the best tank for the mob not just the normal class of tank.   I take damage like a mofo if I am put up against a  clay because all their damage is physical  but put me up agaist a lizard neophite or warder or mender and I shine because their damage is all magic  which is resist</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>True story:</DIV> <DIV>Yesterday I was running around feerrott doing a bit of collecting I rode in just the wrong direction  out by the eye..  I thought I had picked up 4  but I had cut the corner  across 3 groups ... well one managed to weaken? me and I slowed to a crawl... I was after all out collecting and had boxes with me so I was so overburdened that I couldn't really move.. so it was time to fight 12 lizards at once So I throw up a reactive and go to HO'ing on em.. Sure I ran out of power around 9 or 10 but I didn't die  and well frankly it surprised even me to still be standing there afterwards but I was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry back to what I was saying about the right tank for the job... my tank friends mental magic divine etc resistances are 500-800 lower then mine   which gives me the advantage over him in doing mobs that cast he gets hit I resist ... so you tell me who would be the best tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And NO I don't wanna be MT I wanna be a templar a healer who can take some hits  and not drop like a mage..errr fly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Just a quick comment on the original post.</P> <P>Perhaps the Templar thought the group needed more DPS and you'd fill that role fine, while he soaked up some damage?</P> <P>Not that you couldn't have tanked.   I've been know to pass the tanking job to a monk a number of times and had no problem with it.   </P> <P>The only problem with the Templar tanking is him getting interupted in grouped mob encounters.</P> <P>Where were you hunting by chance?  And simply dropping from the group is a tad bit rude don't you think?  </P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Morrolan V]

<P><FONT face=Garamond size=3>Serval, to answer your questions later in the thread:</FONT></P> <P>I am a 31 Monk,, what armor would be best for me to MT and solo? I love the AQ look but know I can't keep forever. Should I be wearing quest armor (Zek, EL)? What player crafted armor is there? Should I wait till lvl 32 fro player crafted?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=3>I bought player-made etched (non-rare), then to Emerald Hide (Zek quested, usable at 35), then to Enchanted Thicket Woven (drops from Lamias in EL, usable at 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Continued to wear the Emerald occasionally when tanking for a couple of levels, as it has much more mitigation than the Thicket stuff.  Still have never seen a set of armor short of raid drop that has better stats than the Thicket, though.  I did wear the Chainweave Gi until 32.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> Also can anyone guide me as far as spell/skill upgrades? Meaning this kick skill replaces this kick spell, etc?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=3>Check out my post here: </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=9148" target=_blank><FONT face=Garamond size=3>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=9148</FONT></A><FONT face=Garamond size=3> :smileyhappy:</FONT></P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ServalC]

Raahl,, as I posted in replys I was very tired been though peeps saying I can't tank all day and the Templar was being snotty about the whole thing, so I left the group. BTW the group just formed and we were getting rdy to fight. So I don't consider this to be rude (being that the templar was being rude at first and he was 3 levels lower than me).

[bonesbro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morrolan V wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=3>Serval, to answer your questions later in the thread:</FONT></P> <P>I am a 31 Monk,, what armor would be best for me to MT and solo? I love the AQ look but know I can't keep forever. Should I be wearing quest armor (Zek, EL)? What player crafted armor is there? Should I wait till lvl 32 fro player crafted?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT face=Garamond size=3>I bought player-made etched (non-rare), then to Emerald Hide (Zek quested, usable at 35), then to Enchanted Thicket Woven (drops from Lamias in EL, usable at 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Continued to wear the Emerald occasionally when tanking for a couple of levels, as it has much more mitigation than the Thicket stuff.  Still have never seen a set of armor short of raid drop that has better stats than the Thicket, though.  I did wear the Chainweave Gi until 32.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Morrolan, do you mind if I steal this for inclusion in the FAQ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Morrolan V]

<FONT face=Garamond size=3>But of course, Bones!  With my compliments.  One correction:  went back and looked at the stats on the Gi.  It goes blue at 30.  I think I wore it for one level after, but not more.</FONT>

[Timaarit]

Your true story proves nothing about templars as tanks. I have been able to solo single groups of those lizards with my templar from level 38. And you are level 44 so I am not suprised at all that you survived. With my lvl 40 templar, I will let anyone I group with tank  if they want. Occasionally when I group with low 30's, they put me to tank after I grab add and can take the beating till the main mob is down. But this usually is the case only with heroics I can either outright solo or get at least close. I never tank heroics that are onle level lower than me or of higher than that. I can tank two levels lower heroics if I know that the group will beat it down before I run out of power and health. But anything else is suicide for me as templar. I can keep others alive even when fighting orange heroics but not myself. <div></div>

[Raahl]

<P>No where in your post did I see where the templar was rude.  All they said was that they would tank.</P> <P>To me you were rude.  But perhaps I'm reading too much into your original post.</P> <P></P> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>I responded back and said "I will not be an off tank to a Templar", "I am a tank not you".</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV>

[ServalC]

Raahl, what ever dude. You weren't there so how can you say that? Move on.

[Cron]

<span><blockquote><hr>ServalCat wrote:Raahl, what ever dude. You weren't there so how can you say that? Move on. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Raahl is going by what you told us.  The cleric said "I'll tank".  You said "I'll not off-tank to a cleric.  I'm a tank, not you" and left the group.  I'd have to agree.  You sound very rude.  Unless he said something else to you that YOU failed to mention, I'm taking the cleric's side on this one.  Maybe he hasn't had a monk take him aside and explain the facts of life.  Maybe they all keep saying "I"m a tank.  Not you" and leaving.</span><div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cronon wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ServalCat wrote:<BR>Raahl, what ever dude. You weren't there so how can you say that? Move on. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Raahl is going by what you told us.  The cleric said "I'll tank".  You said "I'll not off-tank to a cleric.  I'm a tank, not you" and left the group.  I'd have to agree.  You sound very rude.  Unless he said something else to you that YOU failed to mention, I'm taking the cleric's side on this one.  Maybe he hasn't had a monk take him aside and explain the facts of life.  Maybe they all keep saying "I"m a tank.  Not you" and leaving.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly.    Applauds Cronon.

[ServalC]

LOL, what are you guys the frickin EQ2 police? I don't care what you say, nobody cares what you say. Get a life rather than spending time on this dead thread. Flame on cause I won't be reading this thread anymore. I have better things to do. I guess you guys never left a group cause it wasn't to your liking? I pay good money to play this game and I have the right to play the way I want - DARN IT!!

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ServalCat wrote:<BR> LOL, what are you guys the frickin EQ2 police?<FONT color=#ffff00> I don't care what you say</FONT>, nobody cares what you say. Get a life rather than spending time on this dead thread. Flame on cause I won't be reading this thread anymore. I have better things to do. I guess you guys never left a group cause it wasn't to your liking? I pay good money to play this game and I have the right to play the way I want - DARN IT!!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Kind of wierd to post a thread to talk about it then, when you don't care what people have to say.<BR>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ServalCat wrote:<BR> LOL, what are you guys the frickin EQ2 police?<FONT color=#ffff00> I don't care what you say</FONT>, nobody cares what you say. Get a life rather than spending time on this dead thread. Flame on cause I won't be reading this thread anymore. I have better things to do. I guess you guys never left a group cause it wasn't to your liking? I pay good money to play this game and I have the right to play the way I want - DARN IT!!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Kind of wierd to post a thread to talk about it then, when you don't care what people have to say.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL.  Gage your too much.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[salerene]

<P>Here inlies the problem some people are having when trying to find groups. close minded people. Just because your a tank you think your the only one that can tank and no one else can. I play a monk, paly, brigand. with they right type of group setup and good armor anyone can tank most mobs. My monk or my paly get selected most times for MT, but I will move aside for someone that has higher HP/AC any day. it just makes sence.</P> <P>I beleive alot of it has to do with the EXP debt at higher levels. Some people are just so afraid to die so they won't try anything different. I've been in a group where a warlock was the tank with 2 beserkers and me a 22 brigand. we were taking on ^^ mobs of 3 or more and the warlock was kicking butt at being a tank. we were stealing the agro alot, but it was fun.</P> <P>But as someone mentioned when caster classes get thier parry skill removed then things might be different. which I hate, because it just messes up my 23 mystics soloing ability. I guess I'll just move on and adapt.</P> <p>Message Edited by salerene on <span class=date_text>05-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:02 PM</span>

[Cron]

<span><blockquote><hr>ServalCat wrote:<div></div>LOL, what are you guys the frickin EQ2 police? I don't care what you say, nobody cares what you say. Get a life rather than spending time on this dead thread. Flame on cause I won't be reading this thread anymore. <font color="#666600"><span><span>I know you're not listening but I'm going to post anyway.   Why do you get hateful because someone doesn't agree with you?  I'm at work so I have nothing better to do than post to dead threads.</span></span></font> I have better things to do. I guess you guys never left a group cause it wasn't to your liking? <span><span> <font color="#666600">Nobody said anything about your not liking the group or wanting to leave.  You said you left because he was rude.  What you have told us about the incident doesn't show he was rude.  You showed us that you were rude!  Maybe it would be different had you said "I'm not really liking the group" and left.  But to yell at someone for being ignorant and leaving with a smart-off doesn't show good group etiquette.  If you want people to change, invest in them and maybe change will be your return for that investment.</font></span></span>  I pay good money to play this game and I have the right to play the way I want - DARN IT!! <font color="#666600"><span></span></font><font color="#666600">So it would stand to reason that the Templar can play the way he wants, yes?  So why did you bring up this thread again?  Nobody said you didn't have the right to leave the group and no one is telling you how to play.  If you want to play nice, play nice.  If you want to play mean, be mean.  But don't tell me that I can't call you nice or mean as you play it.</font><hr></blockquote> </span><div></div>

[Naldien-Rat]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Ahh, the ownage. So much ownage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>He's right, you were being a jerk. Kinda like the Guardian that left my group when he dropped below 40% on a named mob...Whiner.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Naldien-Rathe on <span class=date_text>05-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:26 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

Right. What I would have done in the original case (and what I did last night too...) is simply "Ok, you tank" and then taunt... Rinse and repeat and let the templar leave the group if he still wants to tank. I was thanked by the group much later when I had to go. <div></div>

[Opekia]

<P>I had the same exact thing happen to me in a group with a Warden and a wizzy.  The Warden wanted to tank.  I told him to go ahead; but I had taunts to keep aggro off the wizzy.  Then he agreed that I should tank.  </P> <P>At least he didn't think I was a priest, which many in groups have thought.  Silly Silly.</P> <P>Hellissa</P> <P>Innothule, 36 Monk</P>