Issues that should be addressed BEFORE combat changes are finished.

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV> <DIV>I am starting this thread in an attempt to be proactive. I want to get dialogue started on monk issues before the combat changes are finished. I dont want to have to fight for changes later, I would prefer to help the devs work in some changes now. I think the best way to get the ball rolling is to get the ideas out there, let the monks mull them over, and suggest that any player that sees a needed change they agree with, /feedback it. With any luck -and enough /feedback- some things might slip into the new designs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's try to keep this from becoming an argument. If you hate my ideas, simply say so and offer alternatives. Anything you like, say so, offer your thoughts, and /feedback in game so it actually has a chance of mattering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will start the discussion with a few issues I have noticed and that could effect the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><STRONG>1</STRONG>. Monk Mend recast timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This thing is too long. Five minutes gives it a very limited usefulness while solo or tanking. In a thread on this subject a 50 bruiser stopped in to say that he felt the 90 sec recast on ignore pain was just enough. I have to agree. I have a 50 monk and I can say the 300 secs is not enough. The beuty of these skills is it gives brawlers the ability to keep themselves in fights longer despite the damage they take. Right now I dont think mend is helping monks enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Possible Fix ideas?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <UL> <LI>Bring mends recast down to the 90s of ignore pain and leave the difference in effectiveness the same.</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Reduce mends recast to a 120s recast and make it equally as effective.</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Reduce mends recast to 90s, leave the effectiveness difference, make mend only able to heal allies for half its normal effect. (If the ability to heal allies is seen as unbalancing)</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Reduce recast, leave effectiveness, make mend always heal the monk for the listed amount regardless of target, heal target for a fraction. (This might be too much, but healing the target for a fraction of the effectiveness that is similar to the difference between the two skills might be balanced. And removing the need to target yourself for a heal might become a really good thing once pvp starts up.)</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>2.</STRONG> Edited due to recent information making this a non-issue </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>3.</STRONG> Reactive damage shields only go off when the target is successfully attacked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spells like the imbueable leggings and the wizard spell Frostshield will only go off if the target is successfully attacked. Having several of this type of spell stacked on you will have a significant impact in group DPS. I tanked the other night in Perma for a quartet. Monk, Wiz, Fury, Inq. I am not sure about the Inq, but everyone seemed to have some type of reactive DS on me, I was lighting up Giants like X-mas trees. Obviously, the fact that these spells only react when the target is actually hit shows a bias toward mitigation tanks that get hit more often. The probelm this creates is that the dps of groups with mitigation tanks could become significantly higher than those of groups with brawlers. As an extra negative effect, it lowers the desirablility of not only brawlers as tanks but of shamans as healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this directly infringes on the types of groups brawlers have been able to tank for, the fast moving, high dps style of moving through zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only fix I see is to change the trigger from damage taken to any time an enemy attempts to strike. Might require that the proc rates get lowered some, or that the formula be based on a 3 second period like normal weapon procs. Regardless, both are recordable lines that the AI can read and react to, so the change shouldnt be that difficult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok, I know that isnt all the issues we have( I think stacking is a huge problem for us ), but it is a start. Please add ideas and issues to this thread. Everyone has their own agendas, this isnt about who is right or who is wrong. I am trying to get attention for issues that are important to me, anyone else is more than free to try and get attention for issues important to them.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Azazel</DIV> <DIV>Nek</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>04-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:57 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <span class=date_text>04-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:22 AM</span>

[bonesbro]

<P>In the spirit of debate:</P> <P>#2: Do you really think this affects balance?  Do you ever actually use your ranged weapon for any meaningful damage?  How does the lack of an imbued weapon create an imbalance that would affect the outcome of the big combat revamp?</P> <DIV>#3: On the flipside, we take fewer hits from stun attacks, so we spend more of the fight attacking than a tank who takes them all on the chin.  I know that fights can get very ugly if they land Crushing Blow right at the start of the fight interrupting my taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also seems to me that we have more combat arts than most mitigation tanks, which increases our chance of activating offensive procs.  </DIV>

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bonesbro wrote:<BR> <P>#2: Do you really think this affects balance?  Do you ever actually use your ranged weapon for any meaningful damage?  How does the lack of an imbued weapon create an imbalance that would affect the outcome of the big combat revamp?</P> <DIV>#3: On the flipside, we take fewer hits from stun attacks, so we spend more of the fight attacking than a tank who takes them all on the chin.  I know that fights can get very ugly if they land Crushing Blow right at the start of the fight interrupting my taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also seems to me that we have more combat arts than most mitigation tanks, which increases our chance of activating offensive procs.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Great questions and thoughts, it is a perfect opener for me to explain a few things I left out of the original.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#2: Yes it effects balance. Why? Because the proc imbue affect on the ranged item not only adds a chance for additional damage on ranged attacks, but it adds a chance for additional damage on melee attacks as well. This goes straight to the heart of Fighter balance, where possible DPS is being weighed against hitpoints and damage absorption. I obviously dont know for certain what the new system holds for us, but I doubt that the dps difference will be so extreme that this will be unnoticeable. A hypothetical example: If the difference between Fighter A and Fighter B dps potential is 10%, the addition of a proc to the equipment of Fighter A that is designed to increase dps by 5% could effectively halve the difference and make Fighter A far more desirable. Also since devs recently posted that proc effects stack, having more of the same only adds to your DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#3: I agree we take fewer stun attacks, but since all parsing and testing on these boards show that special attacks get avoided at a lower rate than normal attacks and since special attacks are only a portion of the attacks used by an enemy, I feel this difference is of minimal statistical importance.  Also this difference is only relevant on the portion of enemies that happen to have stunning attacks, where as the difference in reactive damage procs is relevant on all enemies (even casters will come within range and melee). (Another possible solution- increase the number of brawler ripostes to such a degree that it would balance the dps potential of both setups.)</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>The issue of combat arts increasing the opportunity for a proc can be addressed by reviewing what statements have been made by the devs to date. A few weeks ago a dev released the formula for proc rate. You can check the dev statements post I made on this board, but the formula was (delay/3sec)x(proc percent). Meaning that every time you strike a target you have X% chance of doing extra damage based on the weapon speed. This is regardless of how you strike the target. Since most combat arts have approx 1.6 second cast time, in many cases hasted monks actually lower the chance of causing a proc in a 3 second period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The obvious exception to this is the Darting Sparrow type and Storming Hydra type combat arts, since both can potentially land multiple attacks simultaneously. I personally often group with a berserker, when I have Vehemence cast on me I can proc berserk and raise my haste to over 120%. At that point I will cease using any CA that does not hit multiple targets, I can often begin proccing enough to extend the berserk state far beyond its normal 10 secs. Also in this period, I proc every other effect I happen to have cast on me in large numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as having more combat arts than other fighter classes, I dont believe we do. The CA system in EQ2 seems to be very cookie cutter with every class within an archetype recieving a variation of the same skills at a similar levels. The only fighter class that has a definite advantage would seem to be the Berserker. In situations where they can use all of their multi target hits to full effect they should be able to have the highest proc rate. All of monk skills seem to have an elemental component associated with them, this would be interesting if the attacks ignored AC and acted like spells, but I dont believe that is the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>More brainstorming needed! Come one come all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Az</DIV> <DIV>Nek</DIV><p>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:33 PM</span>

[bonesbro]

<P>#2: Ah, but the "ranged weapon proccing on melee hits" is a bug, and one that was supposed to be corrected in LU #7, which is why I bought it up.  I don't think we should attempt to make balance requests based on the use of a specific bug.</P> <P>#3: You make some good points, though I would say that my experience with haste is different than yours.  I've found that, while hasted, my proc rate is very minimal, and I think this goes back to the proc formula which we both agree on - delay/3.0 * proc%.  Regarding the proc rate on combat arts - I am quite sure that your combat arts trigger procs significantly more often when using a 2h weapon vs. dual wielding, though I do not have a parse to verify that.  I do agree with your that berserkers do get many opportunities to proc when using AEs.</P> <P>So, there's an open question here - does haste affect your proc rate?  This should be an easy test - find some grey++ mobs and autoattack them to death.  Now bring up Everburning and autoattack a few more to death.  Compare the proc rate.  It will be easier to evaluate the results if you have a friendly enchanter or dirge to haste you.</P> <P>I do think we have more combat arts than a Guardian - I did a quick count and saw 8 from 37-50, and I know I have 11 I can use.  However, I'm not very knowledgeable about their skills so I might have misinterpreted some of the flavor text.</P> <P>I, um, confess that I've, um, forgotten what point #3 originally was.</P>

[Azazel-Defia]

<P>I did some checking into the ranged weapon issue, the zerk I group with told me that it had already been changed and that bow imbues no longer effect melee attacks. I edited the original post since this is now a non issue just as you stated. </P> <P>Course I would have known this if I had ever been allowed to play with the big toys. :smileywink: And actually I am sad to see this go, I enjoyed watching my Earthquake proc hit a group 20 m away.</P> <P>So that leaves me with two major concerns, and stacking...always with the stacking.</P> <P>I hate that my Master 1 Winding Dragon is useless for anything but scoring impressive high hits with CAs.</P>