Monks now top DPS and lowest tanks

[Nemi]

<DIV>From Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>So the DPS whiners won, we're now being ranked higher than the offensive crusaders and warriors, which would mean of course by SoE logic, we're 2nd worse tank only slightly ahead of Bruisers.</P> <P> </P> <P>WTG!</P>

[Gaige]

<P>I think to be fair, you should quote his entire response:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>The round of changes currently on Test only deal with the defensive side of things. They won't go live without other changes that are coming.</P> <P>We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale.</P> <DIV>With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms.</FONT> A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities.<FONT color=#ffff00> Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin.</FONT> The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it'll be more of the same as now, without trivializing content and with closer gaps between subclasses.  /shrug<BR></P>

[Nerill]

Yay ! :smileytongue:

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nemi wrote:<div>From Moorgard:</div> <div> </div> <div> <hr> Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle</div> <div> </div> <div> <hr> </div> <p>So the DPS whiners won, we're now being ranked higher than the offensive crusaders and warriors, which would mean of course by SoE logic, we're 2nd worse tank only slightly ahead of Bruisers.   WTG! </p><hr></blockquote> I believe that is partially or fully intended NOW... just looking at the number of buffs I dont have with my monk, and the number I DO have with my berserker... it seems to fit the description just not "working as intended" via the DPS in some cases... But the balance of higher defensive stuff and lower dps is countered by the higher dps taking stuff down a bit faster... overall (in theory) it should end up the same... </span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nerill wrote:<BR>Yay ! :smileytongue: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Don't worry Nerill, the best fighter DPS is even lower than the best scout DPS after the changes.<BR>

[Nerill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR></P> <P>Don't worry Nerill, the best fighter DPS is even lower than the best scout DPS after the changes.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Good ! That's the way it should be. /shrug</DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>My DPS while tanking is not that significantly higher than a Warrior if I'm constantly pulling. This argument that we tank worse because our DPS kills the mob faster is BULL. My DPS while tanking is insignificant compared to the scouts and wizzies in my group.</P> <P>I'm [Removed for Content] that SoE is now moving down the route of 'sub-class' balancing. Its AGAINST everything they have stated previously, even bringing in a tanking heirarchy is only now being mentioned, after 6 months of release. A COMPLETELY new combat and spell system 6 months after release too!</P> <P>Add to that Station Exchange and it all adds up to one thing: Disgruntled consumer, and this one just clicked the 'Cancel Subscription' button. Total n00bs the lot of them at SoE.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I'll give you a hint Moorgard.</P> <P>When you set out with a design goal for a game and advertise this to the consumers; when you create a system revolving around archetype balance and build a combat / spell / healing system to complement this...</P> <P>Ready for this?</P> <P>YOU DON'T GO AND BUGGER ABOUT WITH IT 6 MONTHS AFTER RELEASE!</P>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <DIV>From Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>So the DPS whiners won, we're now being ranked higher than the offensive crusaders and warriors, which would mean of course by SoE logic, we're 2nd worse tank only slightly ahead of Bruisers.</P> <P> </P> <P>WTG!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I see no problem here. MG has stated even before the game went live that Brawlers would do more DPS than all the other tank classes...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They also said that tanks are suppose to over-all do more damage than Scouts, period... Well I guess we can't get everything our way..</DIV>

[Yera]

<span> <blockquote><p></p> <hr> <p>I'll give you a hint Moorgard.</p> <p>When you set out with a design goal for a game and advertise this to the consumers; when you create a system revolving around archetype balance and build a combat / spell / healing system to complement this...</p> <p>Ready for this?</p> <p>YOU DON'T GO AND BUGGER ABOUT WITH IT 6 MONTHS AFTER RELEASE!</p><hr></blockquote>Never played SWG, huh?</span><div></div>

[Owa]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <DIV>From Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>So the DPS whiners won, we're now being ranked higher than the offensive crusaders and warriors, which would mean of course by SoE logic, we're 2nd worse tank only slightly ahead of Bruisers.</P> <P> </P> <P>WTG!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Who won what, precisely? Isn't that exactly the way things have always been, with the Bruiser and Monk (in that order) supposed to outdamage the defensive fighters? Unless I missed a meeting somewhere, Brawlers have always been the 'offensive' end of the Fighter spectrum. Inferring from Moorguard's words that the Fighter archetype has been fundamentally changed due to pressure from whiners is just downright...odd.<BR></DIV>

[Kylins]

<DIV>I'm a level 45 bruiser... I've seen Berserkers 4 levels lower than me crank out 3 times the damage, and I was combat art spamming from behind. I don't know where this so called high dps from Bruisers is, so far as I can tell its all imaginary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[woo]

<P>meh.</P>

[Wiou]

Who says we arent supposed to be the 2nd worst to bruisers? <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>And thats exactly what you will see happen....</P> <P>Guardian, top tank, 6th dps </P> <P>paladin, second top tank, 5th dps</P> <DIV>Berserker, 3rd top tank 4th dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shadowknight, 4th top tank 3rd dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>monk, 5th top tank, 2nd dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruiser, 6 top tank, 1st dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So basically what you will be seeing is bigger offensive gaps, and basically the same defensive gaps...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because at present, offense is not a commodity, defense is. So a well played and attentive bruiser will be able to outdps just about all fighter classes. because its skill/spell dependant. While the defensive gaps will be much larger with the right combination of attention and gear from a gaurdian or paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats what you are seeing. Basically they are defining what was already in place to begin with... With of course Berserkers being the oddballs. I think they will take thier rightful place in this as well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because at present, offense is not a commodity, defense is. So a well played and attentive bruiser will be able to outdps just about all fighter classes. because its skill/spell dependant. While the defensive gaps will be much larger with the right combination of attention and gear from a gaurdian or paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats what you are seeing. Basically they are defining what was already in place to begin with... With of course Berserkers being the oddballs. I think they will take thier rightful place in this as well <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>That is actually exactly the opposite of what Moorgard said will happen.<BR>

[SomeDudeCRO]

Sounds good to me. <div></div>

[Nemi]

<P>Its Hybrid-Syndrome all over again. Might as well call this Everquest 1.5</P> <P> </P> <P>When 4 subclasses do your job better than you and 2 archetypes and 12 subclasses do your secondary role better than you, that doesn't leave you jack. </P> <P>All Fighters can tank, but some so bad you'll never get the chance, Eh Moorgard?</P>

[Tully]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <P>When 4 subclasses do your job better than you and 2 archetypes and 12 subclasses do your secondary role better than you, that doesn't leave you jack. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Amen.  I'll most likely quit EQ2 if this turns out to be the case.</DIV>

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV>Read this statement from Moorguard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ ____________________________</DIV> <DIV>In terms of damage output, berserkers are intended to fall behind bruisers and monks. Berserkers should do a bit more damage than a guardian, since they do not tank quite as well as the guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are in the process of evaluating the damage output of all professions to see if they perform as we want them to. We will make further changes to the overall potency of spells and arts in order to achieve our desired results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of how we balance the classes, there will be some people who don't agree with our decisions. A lot of the distinctions in class balance are subtle ones, prone to emotional interpretation--especially when players make such an personal investment in their characters. While balance will be one of the gameplay elements we focus on over the next couple weeks, it will also be an ongoing process.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ ____________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now read the new statement excerpt from this thread.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <DIV>From Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV align=left>Guess when the first statement was made.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Bottomline. Nothing in Moorguards post is new. It is information we have had since shortly after game release. The developers have not made any drastic changes in direction. In fact, other than damage output changes from beta, they have been very consistent in their vision. I dont think they have ever gotten things to work exactly the way they want, but we all expect that the game will change with time.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Azazel</DIV> <DIV align=left>Nek</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>P.S. First staement was dated 1-10-05</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <P>Its Hybrid-Syndrome all over again. Might as well call this Everquest 1.5</P> <P> </P> <P>When 4 subclasses do your job better than you and 2 archetypes and 12 subclasses do your secondary role better than you, that doesn't leave you jack.</P> <P>All Fighters can tank, but some so bad you'll never get the chance, Eh Moorgard?</P> <HR> <P>Nemi how long have i been saying that?????@?!@?!??@</P> <P>why has it taken till now for yall to see that i said this is what will happen? But it was such a big problem when i said it 3 months ago.</P> <P>All you see is half [Removed for Content] tankage and half [Removed for Content] dps.. Now do you see why i said give me more dps?</P> <P>Because i knew that tanking was not going to happen bro... Now we are stuck in the middle of the bottom. And of course thats what that means.</P> <P>Now all of a sudden, my utility/dps increase parade has a purpose.</P></DIV>

[Nemi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Nemi how long have i been saying that?????@?!@?!??@</P> <P>why has it taken till now for yall to see that i said this is what will happen? But it was such a big problem when i said it 3 months ago.</P> <P>All you see is half [Removed for Content] tankage and half [Removed for Content] dps.. Now do you see why i said give me more dps?</P> <P>Because i knew that tanking was not going to happen bro... Now we are stuck in the middle of the bottom. And of course thats what that means.</P> <P>Now all of a sudden, my utility/dps increase parade has a purpose.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Difference is I advocated all fighters being able to tank all content equally but different. What Moorgard and you propose is completely different to that.<BR>

[SageMarrow]

<P>that didnt matter, i just saw it coming from a mile away. it wasnt going to happen. We argued for weeks about it and no one came up with even one feasible way for a monk/bruiser to tank as well as anything is heavy armor.</P> <P>There was only one solution, it sucked, but there was only one solution either way.. to give up. and take what we more than likely COULD get. utility and dps</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>that didnt matter, i just saw it coming from a mile away. it wasnt going to happen. We argued for weeks about it and no one came up with even one feasible way for a monk/bruiser to tank as well as anything is heavy armor.</P> <P>There was only one solution, it sucked, but there was only one solution either way.. to give up. and take what we more than likely COULD get. utility and dps<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>More utility and dps as a fighter class is BS.  Because its still mage>scout>fighter>priest.</P> <P>If you want to parade around, do it all the way, and have them make us scouts.</P> <P>Evac, pathfinding, awesome DPS, the whole deal.</P> <P>Not some half-[Removed for Content] attempt at being an EQ1 monk.<BR></P>

[woo]

<P>EQ2 had so much potential..</P> <P>they need to fire whoever is in charge of thinking [Removed for Content] up because he has the creativity of a cow.</P> <P> </P> <P>and... throwing this out there, not taking sides even though im a monk .. i dont know what to think yet.. but,</P> <P>not everyone can be #1.  someone is going to be the best.  it appears sony chose guardians..</P> <P> </P> <P>that said, take paladins -- they might not be able to shield there allies as well, but they can heal them instead.</P> <P>..im still trying to think of what us brawlers offer..  DPS?  why not just choose a scout..  tank?  why not just choose a guardian+paladin..</P> <P> </P> <P>meh.</P> <P> </P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>lol, well gage - i totally agree.</P> <P>But since the king of defense is taken...damit i better be the king of melee dps, they can keep thier utility... </P> <P>i wanna do sick dps like a mother... warlock type melee dps.</P> <P>real shi-t. I want to be on either side respectively. But not stuck in the middle of the bottom.</P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:21 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>lol, well gage - i totally agree.</P> <P>But since the king of defense is taken...damit i better be the king of melee dps, they can keep thier utility...</P> <P>i wanna do sick dps like a mother... warlock type melee dps.</P> <P>real shi-t. I want to be on either side respectively. But not stuck in the middle of the bottom.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yup, you want to be a scout, thought so.<BR>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well you can dig this into the ground if you want too, and we know you want too... But on that end you are fighting a losing battle...</P> <P>not to rehash an old debate. but you are not going to give up on tanking so nevermind. this post at all...</P>

[Ronin]

<div></div>Basicly this is my out take on this . . . Guardians, While a strong class able to wield all forms of weapons and armor. Offer far less DPS then all the other  ranks in the Fighter Pool. However they also offer the best tanking ability.  This is thier Job, they are the Guards of the group. They do it well now, and offer tib bits of damage to look like they are doing something other than getting the Heck beat out of them constantly. Paladins, SOE seems to think they are the second best in Tanking, Well, I'd agree also. Thier group buffs used with on the run castable nukes, allow for nearly flawless agro and makes them a very viable tank, with slightly less ability then guardians. They offset that ability with healing and wards, but this lowers thier DPS to the second worst of the fighter pool as well. Berserkers, Hard to believe they ranked 3rd in tanking, seeing they use all the weapons and armor of guardians, including shields. But it looks as though SOE depicts them to using dual wield more, which lowers tanking just enough to set them in at 3rd spot.  Well rounded class, able to tank and dps pretty evenly across the board. Shadowknights, I'd say instead of 4th tanking, the would be a tie for 3rd. Pretty equal with Zerkers, in that reguards. But they have a slight advantage in spells and skills that put them a rank up in DPS. Solid balanced class yet again. Monks, one of the best Utility tanks of the fighter pool but with one minor set back. These skilled fighters don't rely on armor instead they rely on speed. Being missed is the game and higher the mob you face the less likely that will happen. Tho due to thier Utility buffs they come in a solid 4th in the tank field. Just don't be on the receiving end of thier fists if they are mad, cause it will hurt. Bruisers, They are the red headed step child of the tanks. They rank last in tanking ability, but don't take them lightly. They come with fists ready and a strong assortment of skills. These are the elite  DPS tanks, they live and die by the damage they inflict. But once targeted for removal by a mob, its hard pressed to maintain. Now then, one question I seen so far in this thread was about what Bruisers can do in groups. I'll answer that for you, as I am a bruiser, who knows his role well. Bruiser's while not the best by any means at taking hits, can take agro and hold it almost better then any other tank out there. They can also put mobs out of the fight for short periods of time. Intimidate and Jeer lines of skills are Keen abilities that are often times over looked. Intimidate *which I'll just call Mez here on out* gives you a 15 second window of one mob setting Idle doing nothing. This skill is absolutely the best  way to remove a mob from a healer or caster thats under fire.  Also, Jeer is a solid fear, lasting between 1 and 30 seconds roughly. This skill will send a mobs scattering in fear but you can also stop those fleeing mobs in thier tracks with a well timed stun just after fearing. What this means in during a group, even if your the highest level tank there your roll is still DPS, and secondly its your job to be watchful and pickup any ADDs the group might get. Don't think a bruiser can't tank though, for 32 seconds a bruiser is the best tank in the game hands down, nothing can touch you with Bob and weave up, and to top it off you can Stifle with throat punch, and about half of your attacks come lvl35 have a stun component. So you see, Bruisers are only as good as the person playing them. While ranked last as tanks, they are one of the best Crowd control tanks around. Any group is lucky to have a good bruiser in the fight with them. Now then, post what ya like, I'm not saying Bruisers are better then anyone else either. Everyclass is only as good as the person playing them. I've seen Mystics timing wards and heals and debuffs become better tanks then some Guardians I've seen. So just play your best, keep your eyes open, and use your class to its fullest ability. Thats all that was given to you, and all you have the ability to do.  If nothing else, you might save a poor wizard that over nukes some day and get a thank you from it, and it will make you feel great. And at that point you'll understand, its nothing to do with your class, but everything to do with your attitude and ability to play your best. Divar 33 Bruiser Oasis Server <div></div><p>Message Edited by RoninDF on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:51 PM</span>

[woo]

<P>If you are holding a 4 foot long claymore and you swing it at someone..  I'm thinking its going to hurt.  Now, same scenario but you have an 8 inch dagger..  gotta stab em a bunch to do the same.</P> <P>In several other games I have played, tanks did plenty of damage but only 1 "type" ie physical--melee.  Why would a <EM>huge</EM> sword or axe be so much weaker than a little knife?</P> <P> </P> <P>I think scouts and fighters should be tied for DPS (give or take a little within subclasses), and the difference between the two would be that Fighters can tank and Scouts offer utility and different forms of attacks.  As of right now they sorta jumbled this up poorly.  I am <STRONG>not </STRONG>saying to nerf scout's damage, im saying scouts and fighters should be equal.  Some may argue fighters do more right now, or scouts do more, or that they are already equal.  This is besides the point --  I am throwing all of what Sony has already attempted to create out the window.</P> <P>This would create:</P> <P><STRONG>Fighters</STRONG>: X dps, tank</P> <P><STRONG>Scouts</STRONG>: X dps, utlity, different forms of attacks (ie poisons, ranged weapons)</P> <P><STRONG>Priests</STRONG>: ½X dps, heal, ½utility</P> <P><STRONG>Mages</STRONG>: 2x dps, ½utility</P> <P> </P> <P>Within the Fighter archetype;</P> <P>Warriors need to have avoidance %s reduced somehow, and mitigation upped some.  They also need many of there buffs weakened some.  They should not offer much utlity, they should be "grunts" so to speak, as with every other Fighter. By this I mean they are good at standing out there getting smacked around, and they can smack around the mobs.  They should not offer lots of buffs or any other form of utility.</P> <P>Crusaders should be the middle guy for avoidance and mitigation, and lower some of there utilities as well.  <FONT color=#ffff99>The difference between classes should not be tanking, utility and DPS -- those should be differences between <EM>archetypes</EM>.</FONT>  Crusaders would be good tanks because they have average mitigation and average avoidance.</P> <P>Brawlers should have much more avoidance.  Brawlers don't have many buffs.  Brawlers should be the opposite of warriors so to speak:  little utility, weak/little buffs, but still incredible tanking.  Wheres the difference? The difference is they use mitigation and brawlers use avoidance.</P> <P>A sliding scale so to speak might show this better:</P> <P>Darker would be mitigation, lighter would be avoidance.</P> <P>|<FONT color=#663300>---Wa</FONT><FONT color=#993333>rriors------</FONT><FONT color=#666600>-----C</FONT><FONT color=#66cc00><FONT color=#666600>rusa</FONT>de</FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>rs----</FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>------</FONT><FONT color=#33cc00>-</FONT><FONT color=#66ff66>Bra</FONT><FONT color=#99ff66>wle</FONT><FONT color=#99ffff>rs---</FONT>|</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Sony is trying to make the difference between us be DPS and tanking <EM>ability</EM> -- this is wrong.  The difference should be <EM>style</EM> of tanking.</FONT>  Warriors should absorb a lot of damage (improve there mitigation, lower there avoidance) and Brawlers should avoid most of it (improve avoidance).  Crusaders should be the middle of the road.</P> <P>Right now avoidance doesnt usually offset the mitigation, because of agility "caps" a warrior can naturally have mugh higher mitigation than brawlers and buff there avoidance to within 10% of brawlers'.  The reason is because brawlers naturally have very low mitigation, and 80%ish avoidance.  Agility will improve the avoidance.. but past 200 it doesnt do much.  A warrior will have 50% ish avoidance just from his shield and the basic defense skills n what not.  When he gets agility buffs, his agility isnt anywhere near 200 natrually.. so his agility has a large impact and can raise avoidance to 70% or more.  Now some might be thinking "well then by this logic, brawlers could just buff there mitigation %s like warriors can buff there avoidance %s.." -- no.  Brawlers wear light armor, its just not possible for Brawlers to come anywhere near a warriors mitigation.  And instead of fixing that Sony is just saying 'oh lets make brawlers a weakened version of a scout'.</P> <P> </P> <P>As of now it seems they have just thrown together some skill sets, labled them as a certain class, and then put them in whatever archetype had room left.</P> <P> </P> <P>edit: spelling, grammar, punctuation etc.</P><p>Message Edited by woode on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 PM</span>

[Wiou]

Gage, why dont you go play a Guardian? In fact, please? <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wiou wrote:<BR>Gage, why dont you go play a Guardian?<BR><BR>In fact, please?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I wanted to, I would have.  You telling me how to play would be like me telling you to go back to EQ1.</P> <P>I'm not going anywhere, if you don't like my posts, then don't read them. </P> <P>I didn't sign anything saying I had to agree with anyone.</P> <P>We disagree, who cares.<BR></P>

[lagerone]

<P>Forgive me for posting in the monk boards...ours get a little slow, and frankly you</P> <P>guys get so excitable I love coming here.</P> <P> </P> <P>I was pulling for a group in Rivervale last night and we were joined by a very good Ranger</P> <P>who was also Level 40.  I have started to believe this Monks/Bruisers can't tank talk so</P> <P>I decided to ask the Ranger to pull for a while.....see how she went.  Trust me..this is</P> <P>a VERY well equipped Ranger.  I am an average equipped Bruiser....not grey junk...but</P> <P>not great either.</P> <P> </P> <P>I both tank and dps often.  Bruiser dps is quite good and (liek most) much better from behind the </P> <P>mob..so if there is a low dps tank around I generally prefer them to pull.  Now, I am aware that a </P> <P>Ranger is NOT a tank, but I thought she would probably do fine at it.  Anyway it went like this:</P> <P> </P> <P>Ranger pulls blue ^^ heroic mob.  In 4 seconds the  Ranger is at 35% HP and Bruiser promptly</P> <P>pulls mobs right back off Ranger.  Group laughs.  Ranger responds..."Scouts don't tank...M'Kay".</P> <P> </P> <P>I appreciate this is only Level 40...and this is onlya  blue con heroic...etc etc...and yes....I'm</P> <P>a Bruiser not a Monk..yada ...etc..</P> <P> </P> <P>But it made me realise one thing last night.  I might not be the best tank, but I sure ain't no scout.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Teler]

<P>Sorry if this sounds like I would want to be a smarta.., but I somehow agree with that there is a danger in these changes for Monks/Brawlers, The fact that people want to usually maximize the efficiency of their group by selection of the right class is fact (else class balance wouldn't matter, and one could see how/that it happens back before the Sorcerer upgrades). Also that the secondary skill will only count enough if the primary skill is at least in a 90% range of the best is experience as long year secondary tank in "another game" from SOE...</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=13510" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=13510</A> was my first attempt to point at this issue btw...</P>

[sglant]

<P>Is there <EM>anyone</EM> who has anything good to say about monks? </P> <P>Seems like the majority does not like the monk class. I think they are doing a fair enough job. At 36, I can still solo, I can take very effectively, and I can dish out some nice DPS.</P> <P>Will things change in the 40s? maybe... maybe not.  </P> <P>As far as I am concerned, I would say at least 60% of monks did not choose the monk class to tank the HIGH END mobs. We all know guardians are the main mitigation tanks. We knew that from the beginning.... we are a dps tank. </P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <P>Is there <EM>anyone</EM> who has anything good to say about monks?</P> <P>Seems like the majority does not like the monk class. I think they are doing a fair enough job. At 36, I can still solo, I can take very effectively, and I can dish out some nice DPS.</P> <P>Will things change in the 40s? maybe... maybe not. </P> <P>As far as I am concerned, I would say at least 60% of monks did not choose the monk class to tank the HIGH END mobs. We all know guardians are the main mitigation tanks. We knew that from the beginning.... we are a dps tank.</P> <HR> </DIV><FONT color=#cc0000 size=6>RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smileytongue:</FONT>

[woo]

<DIV>"dps tank" thats about as ironic as you can get..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we are an AVOIDANCE TANK,  not a "dps tank".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>by that logic warlocks should all be tanking..</DIV>

[Dovifat]

<span><blockquote><hr>sglanton wrote:<p>Is there <em>anyone</em> who has anything good to say about monks? </p> <p><font color="#ff9933">Monks and Bruisers aren't bad classes per se. However in MMOs it's not only the actual strength of the class that matters, the perception other classes have of your abilities is as much, or more important. Brawlers are rarely perceived as tanks, sometimes as dps class, too often as none of both and thereby merely a filler class. "Filler class" is about as low as one can get in a group oriented game. </font> </p> <p>Seems like the majority does not like the monk class. I think they are doing a fair enough job. At 36, I can still solo, I can take very effectively, and I can dish out some nice DPS. </p> <p><font color="#ff9900">I do like the Brawler class, that doesn't mean i'd turn blind to it's shortcomings. Discussions on most forums suffer from there being only the two extremes of loving or hating something. I don't do either in regards to the class, or EQ2 in general. If i dislike either too much, i'll leave ( as i did in fact, the alternatives are worse though, since DnL has been delayed and Wish canceled. )</font> </p> <p>Will things change in the 40s? maybe... maybe not.  </p> <p>As far as I am concerned, I would say at least 60% of monks did not choose the monk class to tank the HIGH END mobs. </p> <p><font color="#ff9900">Well, i did. Because that's exactly what was promised to us. </font>We all know guardians are the main mitigation tanks. </p> <p><font color="#ff9900">Main Mitigation tank doesn't mean only desirable raid tank. What's your point ? </font>We knew that from the beginning.... we are a dps tank. </p> <font color="#ff9900">Well, from the beginning we were told all subclasses are equally proficient at their main role, they'd only vary in the way they fill it. So we sure didn't know we were to be a "dps tank", whatever that means, anyway. </font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Brew01]

<P>Well I have to say I started playing this game all wrong. I picked a fighter and became a monk thinking I would ultimitly be a great tank. With this recent post about tanking I've basicly quit the game. </P> <P>I should have picked a guardian from the start I know this now. </P> <P>Its to late for me after 46 lvls and over 400 quests I don't want to start from scratch. What sage has said from the start is becoming reality, I've hoped that SOE would prove him wrong but he was right SOE confirmed this. Yes I know its basicly been this way forever but I believed it was just the game needing to be worked out. I thought it was going to be corrected, now my hopes have been crushed. </P> <P>I think this game has great potential, and I believe the monk is still a fun class. Its just not what I signed up for when I picked a fighter. I wish I had the motiviation to start over as a Guardian but how could I enjoy doing all the HQs over again? (I can't) So I will wait for DDO and not make the same mistake I've made here.</P> <P>Its been fun, all of you are great. </P> <P>Gage good luck with the good fight. </P> <P>Sage I've already seen you on the DDO forums(Handle is Rogane) so perhaps I'll run into you over there. This time I'll make sure to listen to what you have to say lol.</P> <P>What kills me is when SOE said if a well geared/skilled monk works on his Tanking he will be equil to a unskilled pally what a [Removed for Content] slap in the face. I don't like playing sec fiddle to someone because they picked the right class. This is why I'm leaving.....</P> <P>Don't ask for my gear I have a lot of friends I'll be giving it away too <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </P> <P>BTW I check out playerauctions just to see and I hate to say almost every server has at least one brawler for sell....... </P> <P>Good by my Monk brothers </P> <P>Skatin Liltanker lvl 46 retired for good(Or sold)</P> <P>Message Edited by Brew01 on <SPAN class=date_text>04-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:43 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Brew01 on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 AM</span>

[Ili]

<P>Yeah, this isn't too much of a surprise. In essense, we've been left....</P> <P>Exactly where we were last month. :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>Yay for Hybrids. And a quick FYI, I didn't choose the Monk class to be any sort of tank at all, DPS, avoidance or otherwise. I chose it because I liked the Monk Class the best of all the classes offered, with Bruiser coming after that, and Shadowknight after that still. And SK's outdamage me all the time. That happen to anyone else?</P> <P>-Ilina</P>

[Tully]

<P>Everybody knows once you play a monk you never play anything else.  I played a warrior and a druid in eq1 before starting over as a monk and I haven't played a MMORPG and not made a monk since.  I don't care what they do - they always seem to be the most fun class in the game.  </P> <P> </P> <P>That being said, i'd say most people playing monks want to have nice dps and the ability to tank anything when needed.  I would think that since there was public info about the monk class being tanks before the game came out that most people playing monks want to be a tank.  But I guess I'm just rational....</P>

[bonesbro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sglanton wrote:<BR> <P>Is there <EM>anyone</EM> who has anything good to say about monks? </P> <P>Seems like the majority does not like the monk class. I think they are doing a fair enough job. At 36, I can still solo, I can take very effectively, and I can dish out some nice DPS.</P> <P>Will things change in the 40s? maybe... maybe not.  </P> <P>As far as I am concerned, I would say at least 60% of monks did not choose the monk class to tank the HIGH END mobs. We all know guardians are the main mitigation tanks. We knew that from the beginning.... we are a dps tank. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I enjoy my monk.  I think that most of the wailing and gnashing of teeth is because there is doubt about what our role <U>is</U>, what it <U>should be</U>, and what it <U>will be</U> after the big ravamp.  Once the full details of the revamp are unleasheded I think that debate on the matter will become more constructive.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brew01 wrote:<BR> <P>Gage good luck with the good fight. </P> <P>Sage I've already seen you on the DDO forums(Handle is Rogane) so perhaps I'll run into you over there. This time I'll make sure to listen to what you have to say lol.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>See you in DDO.  I have a forum account over there too, but I read more than post atm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Ronin]

I love my Bruiser. I'd also wager to bet that in any pickup group I've been in, I admittingly took the DPS role, cause Its what a  Bruiser in my vision, des best. Now why do i love my bruiser?? easy . . I can conform to any situation in a group enviroment. I've seen adds charge my group, heard evac called for and everyone panic but me. This is cause I know my class and its abilities. I pickup the add, Mez it, step behind it, Throat punch, followed by eye gouge. Now the Add is a worthless damage dealing mob taking up space around the group. I then  start barking orders like a Bouncer in a pub, and get the group back on the first mob. I maintain throat punch on the add until the first is dead. Surprisingly I've lost very little HP, infact alot of times I damage myself more then mobs using defensive skills like bruising spirit or Bruising strike. I garranty, without us calm and collected Monks and bruisers, some pickup groups would fall apart or wipe sometimes. You should be proud of that fact too. Infact I just added Adept 1 One Hundred hand to my attacks, and my normal group in the mornings loves me even more now. Pally Tanking, with me and a ranger DPS'n, we  3 cn do group encounters around lvl33-34 without any problems at all normally. SPecially out doors, where I can really shine with jeer / Stun, to remove one mob from the fight. And yes, I typically do outdamage our Ranger, but thats just due mainly to her level, I have 3 levels on her, I should be out damaging her. All in all, I think alot of players need to take a step back and rethink thier reasoning in EQ2. They see a class, and subclass and think all should be Equal. All tanks should be equal! is all i keep hearing. The such total bull also. I Love my being different, cause then with skill in playing my own class, and  practice, I can become the best at what I do. And I will amaze someone, time and again with my skills and ability to play my class. Infact I think everyone in EQ2 looks to heavy into the 4 base class types, cause its a world of change and difference of style between any class. I mean, would you really like to see Illusionists nuking for 3500 like a Wizard? Or see a Dirge back stab for same as a assassin? Heck no, thats plain stupid, Instead we all need to step back far enough to see that every class is different. Its only a path to get to the class you have to take. Like Mystics and Defilers, you think they should be the same? I really hope not. heck while your at it why not just let  Warriors have nukes for 2000 and let wizards back stab with daggers for 1000+, Then you can have the Templar take hits like a guardian. Where would we be then? We'd be exactly where we are now, whining and crying cause he's hitting harder more, and cause its to hard to time attacks. Give me my Individuality, and let me earn my way with showing others my skill at playing my class well. And, personally, if you don't like being an Individual, go play another game, and give us a break. All your doing with your whining is causing SOE and developers to have even harder time getting it balanced, so we can be ourselves and prove our class has a place. I know I'm confident in my class and its abilities, and I know I'll continue to grow and learn them to the best of my ability. If you have what it takes and step up and out play me, so beit, I'll have tried my best and lost to a better player, who know thier class better, and I'll walk away with intent to learn more and strive to get back on top. Things will change, and you just need to be a little flexible to change, cause if you bend withit, you won't break and then can strive to overcome it. As for the Whiners, Bugger off willmake it that much easier for the rest of us to succeed without you slowing us down. <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>lol Brew, im gonna be a Elven ranger/wizard....</P> <P>so dont listen to me this time around ha. im gonna be an oddball like all hell. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <DIV>but seriously. Good luck man in all that you do. (im trying to wait it out. But its honestly getting worse by the day. that combined with my server population just makes it rough on the senses.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but since i will be joining a raiding guild in a few days, maybe things will pick up since i will always have something to do with other game fanatics like myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just have to wait and see. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Peace, love, and hairgrease!!!</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>All in all, I think alot of players need to take a step back and rethink thier reasoning in EQ2. They see a class, and subclass and think all should be Equal. All tanks should be equal! is all i keep hearing. The such total bull also. I Love my being different, cause then with skill in playing my own class, and  practice, I can become the best at what I do. And I will amaze someone, time and again with my skills and ability to play my class. <BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>I understand that, and in alot of ways i feel the same way.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>but on the reverse side, when you advertise something sooo heavily, then dont deliver on it. Thats where you cause your problems.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>SOE made this mess with saying there will be 6 totally different ways of doing 1 job. Then suddenly everything started to fall apart from the top down.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>Group structure: 1 tank 3-4 dps - 1-2 healers</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>Which left all the fighter classes in a pinch. Avoidance tanking worked, but it worked too well. So they had to scrap that as well.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>So basically the bottom line is that dps tanks were never in the works. It was the Equal but Different standard. When you tell players thats what they are getting, and that is one of the core reasons they hop on your train, and you dont deliver that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>You just made a big mistake. and thats where we are at present. so you really have got to look at both sides.</FONT></DIV>

[Wiou]

YES we're in the fighter line YES we're supposed to be tanks YES we can be tanks YES we're the worst of the tanking line (always assuming besides bruisers) -- In theory, of course. We're so caught in the middle its hard to argue whether we ARE one thing or not. It really is. YES we're decent -- or in many cases 'good' at both, in specific situations. We are the red headed step childs of tanking and DPS. But hell, we're fun. And I enjoy every second of my monk; always have, always will. Thats just, well, my take of it. Ive just become way too bitter in my experiences I guess. I tank for about 5% of the groups im in, and I can really tell a difference and its discouraging. Who knows, maybe I honestly havent given it too much of a shot. And also people on my server could just be on a bias against monks. /shrug<div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <DIV> <P>In the current game, fighters do high DPS and tank extremely well. This isn't confined to one or two subclasses, but rather encompasses all of them. This statement will no doubt spark the "No way, my subclass is way broken compared to that other fighter subclass!" but regardless of that, my basic statement is correct.</P> <P>As I said in my post last night, one goal with the changes is to reinforce archetype roles. In the balance between fighters and scouts, this means that fighters will be able to tank better than scouts, and scouts will be able to do more damage than fighters. Again, that's painting this issue with the broadest possible strokes; obviously there is a lot of variance that will happen based on subclass.</P> <P>Keep in mind that we are adjusting the game as a whole during this process, not just the damage output of certain classes. It won't just be fighters that do less damage, but likely everyone in the game: players and NPCs alike. This will have the net effect of making fights last a bit longer, which is a good thing for those classes like enchanters and bards that excel in things like crowd control, group enhancements, etc.</P> <P>As you can see, none of these factors exist in a vacuum, which is what makes all this such an involved process. But yes, when all is said and done, scouts will end up doing more damage than fighters.</P> <P>===========================<BR>Moorgard<BR>EverQuest II Community Guy</P><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>04-28-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:51 PM</SPAN> </SPAN></DIV> <P> </P> <P>This just came in guys.... for those of you who dont read the dev tracker</P></DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>oh hey guys, this just in, </P> <P>Go ahead and count Vanguard out of the MMO race...</P> <P>They just announced that they too are going to be using the totally blown archetype system...</P> <P>read up on it in <A href="http://www.ign.com" target=_blank>www.ign.com</A></P> <P>its on the cover page so it shouldnt be hard to find. lol, lets see how bad they screw it up trying to achieve Equal but Different.</P>

[woo]

<DIV>is it just me, or does it seem like the changes sony is announcing lately arent appealing to ANYONE?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>seems like they turned a game with lots of potential into..  uhh..  well its fun, but its just not workin lately..</DIV>

[SennSei]

Just submitting a post to offer sympathy to SoE once Vanguard or DDO come out. I'm sure EQ2 was a big investment. Now that EQ1 is declining and EQ2 will most likely either die or fade to a small player with some fans, SoE will diminish as well.I know, nothing meaningful, but it's all been said already. However, I still play EQ2 now cause WoW has bored me and I really do like the EQ2 graphics on High Quality.The thing that pisses me off is when I quite EQ1 monks were the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], now they seem like lap dogs. I'm really disapointed.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>oh hey guys, this just in,</P> <P>Go ahead and count Vanguard out of the MMO race...</P> <P>They just announced that they too are going to be using the totally blown archetype system...</P> <P>read up on it in <A href="http://www.ign.com/" target=_blank>www.ign.com</A></P> <P>its on the cover page so it shouldnt be hard to find. lol, lets see how bad they screw it up trying to achieve Equal but Different.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ha Ha.  Wow.  I could almost hear your heatbreak when I read your post.  You've been so Pro-Vanguard already and now you have to hear they are in fact using an archetype system, with 4 jobs, where everyone from the archetype is the same.</P> <P>Are you gonna be ok Sage, lol.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SennSei wrote:<BR>Just submitting a post to offer sympathy to SoE once Vanguard or DDO come out. I'm sure EQ2 was a big investment. Now that EQ1 is declining and EQ2 will most likely either die or fade to a small player with some fans, SoE will diminish as well.<BR><BR>I know, nothing meaningful, but it's all been said already. However, I still play EQ2 now cause WoW has bored me and I really do like the EQ2 graphics on High Quality.<BR><BR>The thing that pisses me off is when I quite EQ1 monks were the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], now they seem like lap dogs. I'm really disapointed.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>SoE isn't going anywhere, and neither are their games, unless they turn them off.  In fact they are introducing a new action MMO at next year's E3.<BR>

[SennSei]

You are probably right, but where will SoE's RPGs go? Do you think EQ2 will live as a major player through the next several MMORGs being released? I am doubtful.BTW, I realize this is off topic, and I do appologize.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SennSei wrote:<BR>You are probably right, but where will SoE's RPGs go? Do you think EQ2 will live as a major player through the next several MMORGs being released? I am doubtful.<BR><BR>BTW, I realize this is off topic, and I do appologize.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, I think SoE will always be at the forefront.  /shrug.</P> <P>You can't please everybody with one game, but various games will always please someone.<BR></P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well im hanging on to a hope and a prayer for DDO. </P> <P>and if that dont work, aww hell, Xbox 360 comes out later this year...and ill just hang up my MMO hat for good.</P> <P>Which means i can go back to Krakken skullz in Madden NFL football... </P> <P>Hey have you seen Madden Next Gen gage? Theres a commercial of it on the IGN website as well. I know you might not be into that sort of thing. But it looks awesome.</P> <P>And the actual game is supposed to look like that commercial spot. More on it will be at E3 as well i believe. </P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 PM</span>

[Gaige]

Yup, I'm a big console gamer too.  Going to a Tekken 5 tournament this weekend.  I have every madden since 93 I believe, although back in the day I was a bigger Tecmo Bowl fan.

[kerra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brew01 wrote:<BR> <P>Gage good luck with the good fight. </P> <P>Sage I've already seen you on the DDO forums(Handle is Rogane) so perhaps I'll run into you over there. This time I'll make sure to listen to what you have to say lol.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>See you in DDO.  I have a forum account over there too, but I read more than post atm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sorry to hijack but...DDO same server for all us monks? Sounds like fun to me.  If we stop arguing enough to actually kill stuff that is :smileyvery-happy: <p>Message Edited by kerra on <span class=date_text>04-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>