I'm sick of this...

[Brew01]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>Ok first off let me just say I don't post much but when I have in the past its to back up Gage and proclaim our Tanking ability. Now that I've said this let me explain my problem.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc9933>I'm currently lvl 46 monk with all T5 rare armor until recently I've had a static group with my wife and friends. I'm in the military and have like 4 months left. Recently I moved my family ahead of me so now I'm stuck here by myself and decided to play EQ2 again while I wait to finish my time here. Like I said I had a static group so getting to tank wasn’t a problem. Now some have moved on while I was gone for 2 weeks, so basically I'm out there getting Pick Up groups. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc9933>It has to be the worst time I've ever had in any MMO. I'm sorry Sage for not seeing before why you hate being stuck in Tank archetype. I have NEVER been able to tank for a pick up group I have been given very little chance to prove myself since I still want to lvl and quest but I don't have my static group to do it with. I HATE being a tank that is called to groups as a DPS source ONLY. The straw that broke my back is today. This is a week of playing and trying to get back into the EQ2 spirit. </FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>I'm killing some NB for a friend in a group when the Overfiend pops my group ignores this since we didn't really want to try and kill him. A lvl 49 Temp ask if he can find a high lvl tank if we would want to kill him. We agree he grabs a lvl 50 zerk now I know that I'm not going to be the Main Tank and that’s fine however when time comes to pick the Off tank the Temp says the Lvl 41 Guard with us is going to be the Off tank. I quickly correct him and soon become the off tank, which is how it should have been from the start so this is the first part of a crappy day.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>Next I join a forming group for some PF xp and a lvl 45 guardian Joins right off the back he is the tank I'm never even considered. Now I'm sure that since I have higher DPS perhaps I would do better to be the Off tank but the point is I picked a Monk To TANK and to be bypassed contently pisses me off. I don’t mind letting others tank but at least I should get to tank if I’m the Highest Lvl tank in the group. LOWER lvl Plate tanks getting picked over me is DRIVING ME CRAZY..... This is constantly happening and yes the group had a Mystic and a Temp so either of us would have done great as the MT. I know if I’m in a group and there is only ONE TEMP healer a Guard would be better. I don’t like it but I know it. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>The rest of the day I get in arguments with people about how monks are viable tanks and we should be given at least a chance to prove it. EVERY time I join a group there is at least 2-3 people who think I'm crazy for wanting to tank. If I don't know the healer they laugh at me when I say I need redoubt or what not. Its all good that some times I can make people trust monk tanks but it’s getting REAL annoying.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>This is basically a grip because I'm so sick of all the people out there that don't know crap about monks.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>I know a lot of guardians are going to say well if you wanted to tank you should have picked a Guard but you know what I didn't because I don't like the style that Guardians use its just how I am. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>Now I'm ready to go on the side of DPS PLZ just give my monk a place in groups that is expected. Why should 80% of my play time be convince people that I can do the Job I'm meant to. It doesn't matter if we are the Best Tanks or not. There are just too many people who Don't want us to be tanks or don't think we can. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>I'm done fighting it just give me better DPS move me to the Scout archetype.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933>Rant off</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc9933></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#cc9933>p.s. I'm not crazy I know its probably not going to happen but if I do stay here I will probably end up rerolling.... I Hate that idea I love my</FONT> </FONT><FONT color=#cccc33>monk </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P></DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>sucks big time...</P> <P>Really sorry you had to see my reality that way. But thats been the basis of my entire argument all along. I played a warrior in EQ1 for years. But outside of completely leveling another character, i always enjoyed the monk feel. So when i moved up to EQ2 after a long break from the original everquest, i decided to check out the monk/bruiser tank thing. Since it was supposed to work that way. And for the most part it does without question. (at least the tanking part)</P> <P>But as i grew in levels and EQ2 experience playing, i started getting the feeling that no one else knew what i knew lol...</P> <P>I live the pickup group life. Level 42 without a guild, without any RL friends that play the game as well. AND to top all of that off, im not on a highly populated server either. I play alot, and i have joined 3 guilds so far, all of which whose players there in have dwindled away and stopped playing just about totally. So as usual, i leave the guild and search for one that suits my play time and desire to play... No such luck.</P> <P>So yet again, im back to the life of a pickup group, and all of my friends end up being plate tanks....(there are more Guardians and templars on my server than any other class)</P> <P>So when we go to group, ironically enough... After the pickup group compares the healers to the tanks, and the tanks to the *potential tanks*, they go with the obvious choice.</P> <P>So thats why i always argue about this games shortcomings in the *Alternate advancement/Diversification* department. Which is also the reason for my seemingly *negative* outlook on the game. Mostly because my personal experience and in game desires depends solely on someone elses time and availability and willingness to co-operate. A situation that i have had poor experiences with other players being willing to accomodate and the class i chose seems to only damage that reality further.</P> <P>So yes i want to have something to do when im not arguing about my class or being forced to lay low and punch crap and get yelled at when i pull aggro because of the hate/debuffs built into my CA's...</P> <P>So instead of argueing every day for 3 hrs, i seriously was like man, screw it = give me more dps and ill shut up about this whole fiasco. I dont want to spend the next 100 levels convincing player after player of my tanking ability. Just give me something consistent and concurrent to do so i will have a desireable spot in groups. heck, take my mitigation, and give me good avoidance on a JUST IN CASE basis, keep the utility, and just let me melee dps like a [Removed for Content] wizard casts spells.</P> <P>Its not that crucial, but trying to corrall a class against popular stigma just puts everyone that chooses that class between a rock and a hard place and creates a wierd rift between the class itself and players that can openly fulfill thier archetypal role because of guilds and set groups as well as the player vs the community of *other* classes...</P> <P>Which is why me and gage argued to heck, which is why you and 150 other players argued during your play time... Kinda puts your back against the wall.. a wall that i dont like looking at 75% of my in-game day.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 PM</span>

[Tully]

<DIV>I don't have problems getting groups or tanking for them, and most people know now that monks can tank.  At least on Guk.</DIV>

[maluv]

<DIV>just force yourself into being the tank.... only if you can do a better job tho, if not they laff at u and point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i dont have a problem tanking, im good at and ppl like it, if i know i can do better i will w/out telling it doesn't really matter to ppl, as long as they r using the best tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if u suck.. well im sry, if not get in there and be the tank =D</DIV>

[dunam]

<div></div>I would have to really agree with both sides of the argument.  I am only level 29 now, but I was 25 before I ever really started tanking for pickup groups.  Mostly because I didn't like the idea of arguing my way into it.  I guess it happened that I was in a group that had a lower level plate tank who couldn't hold aggro (or wasn't taunting), and I volunteered my duties as MT.  I told them upfront that it was really my first time trying it, but after reading some of the great posts here about using both taunts, and group buffs as well as stuns, everyone in the group seemed to think I was the best tank they ever played with.  Two of them ended up joining my guild. Moral of the story, I guess, is:  If there is an opportunity to show your pickup group what you can do, do it.  I like the way we are, since I can tank just fine when needed, and when I am grouped with ignorant people, I can surprise em with the damage I can do  =) <div></div>

[Wiou]

We are not tanks. Period, end of story. We just arent. We CAN, but so can scouts/priests/mages. Us being in the top of scouts/priests/mages doesnt change the fact that we arent a tank anyway. Its the brutal reality. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wiou wrote:<BR>We are not tanks. Period, end of story.<BR><BR>We just arent. We CAN, but so can scouts/priests/mages. Us being in the top of scouts/priests/mages doesnt change the fact that we arent a tank anyway. Its the brutal reality.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>ROFL.  HAHAHAHAHAHA.  </P> <P>Wiou please do not post uninformed opinions in our forum, or at least if you do, let people know they are opinion.<BR></P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well wiou, i will say this...</P> <P>Due to buff stacking and self buffs, at present, we are incredible tanks... </P> <P>In a full group i can reach 80% avoidance and 53% mitigation at level 42.</P> <P>outside of a full grp, if a heroic mob looks at me crooked that is less than 5 levels lower than me... rip rip rip dead... so im a tank for a full grp... now the rest of the time spent walking around norrath, you can call me what you want. but the game was built around grouping so heh. </P> <P>Now argue this with me after LU9#......</P>

[i3ry]

That's weird... I tank all the time and I never seem to have a problem.  I'll try to remember that we aren't tanks next time I'm deep in PF and I go for my taunt button (because tanks definately don't get taunt buttons). <div></div>

[woo]

<P>i was tanking earlier today.</P> <P>sure it was after i had cycled through about 10 people kicking them out of the group because they insisted that i was a noob for wanting to tank..  but eventually i found some people that "let" me tank..</P>

[Brew01]

<P>First off not once did I say I couldn't tank or I wasn't a good tank. I said I tanked a lot in a static group for most of my lvls. Now that my static group is no longer aviable I'm starting to see why sage would rather just be a dps monk.</P> <P>I love my monk I enjoy tanking and when GIVEN the chance I normally prove our worth. However the FACT is I don't get that chance very often. </P> <P>Tanking for a pick up group as a monk, ANY problems, ANY deaths and its the Monks fault. That is a world I don't like being in, however it is our world. </P> <P>I can handle the hate, I can take the preasure, BUT I don't feel I should be stuck in this situation. I don't like it and I'm tired of it. EQ2 is a game I play to have FUN, trying too convince EVERY group I get in from a LFG tag that I can tank ISN'T fun.</P> <P>I know we can tank I know we are very good at it and infact with the right group do a better job then other tanks. The problem is a majority of the other players DON'T KNOW THIS that is what my rant is about. Its crazy I just wish SOE would have called us something other then Monk. </P> <P>On a side note I've decided to at least get too lvl 50. Once i get the lvl I will make my choice to stick it out or reroll.</P> <P>I know this might seem to be a silly rant, and I know the only way to prove we can tank is to do it. I was [Removed for Content] off yesterday and wanted to say something. So I came here and ranted... What it accomplished, probably nothing but I'm sure I'm not the only Monk with this problem. </P> <P> </P>

[Amanojak]

<P>I prefer my off-tank  role....MTing is too much of a hard worl for me.</P> <P>And now with the change to evac (evaccing straight to the docks instead of the dungeon entrance for most zones) scouts are not having any advagtages for the DPS spot over us <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>Recently I have been into a few groups with no scouts around LS, EF and PF and it seems it makes for a much more enjoyable and challenging experience.</P> <P>BTW Brew, Sage did not call for monks to be DPS, he ask that monks should not have their DPS nerfed in comparison with scouts as a sacrifice for increase in tanking ability.</P>

[Melr]

<DIV>I can definatly see where the OP's coming from.  Don't know how many people I've had laugh at me when i've explained, drawn pictures in crayon for them, etc that monks can and ARE tanks.  I'm only 33 atm and never been in a "raid" other than anguis in antonica.  So oviously i have no clue about lvl 50 raids and such.  But from my own experiences most people that still think monks cannot/aren't tanks are EQ1 players.  They obviously still think that monks in this game have to hide behind mobs because they will be one rounded and die.  </DIV>

[Parrot665]

<DIV>Skatin - I understand exactly where you're coming from, and like a few others have pointed out - people are starting to learn that monks <EM>are </EM>tanks...not just that we <EM>can </EM>tank. Raid tanking is a different can of worms, and I know I personally wouldn't want to do that, but hey, I could be wrong about that - I've never tried.</DIV> <DIV>Anyway, there's a group of us that play most nights....we always seem to be one or two peeps short of six, so you're welcome to give me a shout anytime for a group - you can be main tank or offtank, your call :smileywink: </DIV> <DIV>              </DIV> <DIV>Genoshen</DIV> <DIV>45 Monk</DIV> <DIV>The Legionnaires of Light</DIV> <DIV>Blackburrow Server</DIV>

[Tully]

<DIV>Pretty pathetic when a monk tells other monks that we are not tanks.  This whole game we've been trying and succeeding in changing peoples' minds about a monk's tanking ability.  I'll tell you right now, the only times I haven't been able to tank is if i'm too low for the area (such as a 42 tanking in PF) or that time between the agility nerf and mitigation patch.  For another monk to tell me that I'm not a tank, well...you can kiss my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>ive tanked in PF at 42...</P> <P>ive tanked up and down CT at level 40...      (level 51 named eye in CT and fright fiends)</P> <P>Because with my base stats combined with buff stacking - im one of those people that moorgard talks about that gets virtually invincible at some levels.</P> <P>2 healers and i can tank anything in regular group content.  which is why i replied to Wiou like i did.</P> <P> </P>

[Kurai_Mitsukai]

<DIV> <P>On my server, I do not have a problem getting to be the tank, though I have done my fair share of teaching people about monks since the server opened. Just about any group I am in, if there are two or more fighter classes, we simply go with the highest level. I am good at leading a group and being the tank, so skill definatly has a part in it. If I am constantly having to take agro off the healers, cause the guardian can't seem to use his 5 taunts properly, then I will take over.  </P> <P>/smack Wiou</P> <P>Cogglesprok Gearfist - 45 gnomish monk - Lavastorm</P></DIV>

[Xyx]

<P>Ya know, I've heard this over and over and finally wanted to post my opinion.</P> <P>Right now on my server (Kithicor) its murder to find pickup groups. Basically you have to form your own group to get something going. This goes for all classes right now primarily due to finals in school. The one thing I realized tho is that when they are searching for a tank they will not consider monks as quickly as other fighter classes and I tend to only get invites to tank if noone is available. Now when it comes to DPS I don't get found initially because they would rather have an assassin or ranger with evac. Thats fine too, and this I can understand.</P> <P>Now for those that do know how to keep a monk tank going it is not an impossible task to have a good group. I was in what I believe was one of the best groups I've ever been in where we comprised of an Illusionist, Coercier, Fury, and myself the monk. We were all in mid 40s. When you get 2 healers goin that know their stuff, and preferably a class with regen, we can own. With that in mind tho it takes a very open minded group that allowed me to show them we could do this.</P> <P>Here is how my guild treats me tho. Usually we have a lv 50 tank tanking for us and they let me open up the dps because they know that if I grab aggro I don't go down in just a few hits. For how I have configured my monk I can keep up with even some of the best wizard and scout classes in dps, and sometimes pass em. My guild can appreciate this and makes strategies for me to do so, sometimes to grab aggro. Once again tho they are very forgiving.</P> <P>Lets face it, monks are a special class. We don't exactly fit into the mold of what class can do what. Leveling through the levels I was able to sneak like a scout, dps like nobody's business, be a decent replacement tank, and do a spot heal (mend) that has saved my groups on many occasions. This is the really odd way that Sony has made EQ2 classes. We are not the only ones with an odd skill or two. Dirges can rez. Yea, that threw me for a loop.</P> <P>At some point when they go to "fix" us we need to realize that part of us will change for the good and part for the bad. Until then we will need to keep convincing our groups we can tank, and when they fix us we will REALLY need to convince em we can tank. At least we look really pretty while fighting.</P> <P> </P> <P>Akali</P>

[Harpax]

Pick up groups will *always* be far inferior to almost any other type of gameplay a MMPORG has to offer.  The vast majority of them will be filled with people who have no clue what their class can do, let alone what anyone elses class can do.  Like the OP said, in his normal group he didn't have any issues.

[pillb]

*shrugs*  My monk tanks just fine. He can mend and fd and coming from playing a guardian my monk has a TON more versatility and options reguarding how he can tank. I think Monks are the most balanced FUN class in the game right now.  They don't need a tanking boost. In order to tank better they'd need to sacrafince dps and skills and that would make them a zerker, Monk is 100time more fun than playing a zerker. Monks CAN tank.....and deal out dps if they arent mt'ing. I wish people on these forums would stop crying about they're monk not tanking (because they can) and realize not every class can tank the same. The game's only been out 6 months, give it some time for people to realize monk is a tank class with awesome abilities and not just dps. <div></div>

[Sinsemil]

<FONT face=Verdana color=#33cc00><STRONG>Tanking is fun if i have two healers in my group. :smileyvery-happy:</STRONG></FONT>

[Brew01]

<DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN>Thanks all for the responses makes me feel a little better knowing that other monks share my fate.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Amano- I've been reading the boards for a LONG time go back in the early stages of Sagedom he basically wanted a DPS role and not a tank one. He has, like many others been swayed to compromise.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Parrot665- I might take you up on that offer thanks much. Even if I don't join your static group perhaps we can get what’s left of mine and yours together. Nothing like a bunch of people who know what a monk is made of.</SPAN></P><SPAN>I think our class is pretty well balanced and perhaps even working as SOE wanted..... MY problem is I HOPED so much for something I should have known wasn't possible. THE END OF THE HOLY TRINITY..... It seems mmorpgs might never change. SOE has done a good job breaking it down for the most part, but I don't see it ever going away totaly.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>i agree- brawlers are just about the most balanced class out there in terms of flexibility and such. While some dont see it= it is there indeed.</P> <P>but we are fighting a stigma on the tanking side, and a conception of lower dps/utility on the dps side... just crazy.</P> <DIV>thats what makes the class so diffucult to play, because its sooo situational. Because sometimes a gaurdian will tank us under the table, and sometimes an assassin will put us to shame in dps...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but on the other hand = alot of times it will be exactly the opposite</DIV>

[Amanojak]

<P>Sorry Brew..but I think you wrong.</P> <P>I was one of the earliest posters on that massive Sage vs Gage debate and basically it started as me and Sage defending against the argument on a nerf to our DPS to compensate for an increase for tanking. We did not advocate for a DPS role..we just wanted it to be untouched.</P> <P>BTW last night me (47monk), 40 fury, 42 ranger and 48 wiz tried to take on the monk mark in Zek....we was wiped out with me taking 600dam hits constantly -_- .</P>

[SageMarrow]

whats the monk mark??/

[Gaige]

FBSS mob.

[Wiou]

you guys truely are in denial. we are the worst tank in the "pickable isle".. dont know what fantasy world you're living in, but we're picked for dps in groups, rarely tank. I dont care how good your stats are with a full group, but you know anyone else in the fighter tree is a lot better. <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>WELL IM BETTER THAN SHADOW KNIGHTS!!!!!!!</P> <P>but yeah - the vast majority of monks/bruisers (i believe) are often chosen as dps. but there arent enough of us anyway to be of note...</P> <P>we are usually someone [Removed for Content] alt. and never gets past 30</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wiou wrote:<BR>you guys truely are in denial. we are the worst tank in the "pickable isle".. dont know what fantasy world you're living in, but we're picked for dps in groups, rarely tank. I dont care how good your stats are with a full group, but you know anyone else in the fighter tree is a lot better.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wiou you are full of it.  I get picked to tank and always have.  The only time I DPS is for raid content, and even then only if its x3 or x4.  I think Jezekiel is living proof that brawlers are tanks.</P> <P>You haven't experienced enough of the game to know, plus you have a preconceived notion that we aren't a tank class, can't tank, and are better suited for DPS; no wonder you are of the opinion you are.</P> <P>Your opinion of the class is fine, just don't try to speak the statement as fact, when it isn't.<BR></P>

[diamondma]

<DIV>i almost see where wiou is comin from but we are tanks given the right group setup we are just as effective as any other tank sometimes even moreso because of our ability to hold single mob agro easily.  the only problem i see with monks tanking is like gage basically said, i havent heard of a monk tanking a raid mob above their level that is x3 or x4 i just dont see it happening with the current combat system. flame on ppl flame on.</DIV>

[-UGG-Andy]

<P>In my experiance up to lvl 42,i tank only when there is not a plate tank in the group,otherwise im dps.You have next to no chance of being picked over a guardian to main tank in a group,let alone a raid-but then again,i never saw a guardian get picked for dps.Even just self buffed,i have seen guardians my level with 30% more mitigation,and only 10-15% less avoidance..once buffed in a group its obvious which to pick.It does'nt matter how many times a dev says monks are meant to be equal tanks blah blah,the reality at the moment is monks and bruisers are the worst tanks of the fighter tree,but have the best dps-which we can all look forward to being nerfed,as apparently its a little too good.</P>

[diamondma]

<DIV>i disagree with monks and bruisers bein the worst tanks. ever seen a pally or sk try and tank? usually ends up with agro goin all over the place. when pallies tank i have to keep my dps under 140 otherwise i take agro immediately.</DIV>

[-UGG-Andy]

my gf plays a paladin with me,we played together from lvl1-42,so yes i know about pallies,i know that when shes mt and using all her skills i can't pull agro off her at all,and i have all my skills upgraded,and so does she.Maybe its cos most pallies i have seen are poor players,perhaps your server is the same.They have more skills that affect hate than monks i think,they got there taunts,loads of aoe's,DoT's,and group and single target buffs that transfer hate to them.We have two taunts and some attacks with dots that generate hate.

[diamondma]

<DIV>nothin against u man but suthin is wrong there. ive never had a pally or sk that could hold agro against me just dps'ing much less a druid, warlock, or mystic. i cant believe that all the pallies/sks are that horrible.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well you have had pallys that suck. cause im a bruiser and i can put out more dps than you - and i know for a fact that the level 44 paladin i was in a group with for 3hrs a minute ago didnt have any problems holding aggro from me unless he was OOP.</P> <P>Thats just a poorly played paladin then... </P> <P>Holding aggro is really kinda jokish. Ive held aggro off of level 48 necros, 49 wizard/warlocks...and ive done that with level 20 on down taunts because as a bruiser i dont have any without fear in them.</P> <P> </P>

[Buggrit]

<DIV>im sick of everyone [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing about monks i quit my lvl 28 Guardian for a monk well currently lvl 18 brawler nearly 19 and im having so much more fun i tank v well duo with my gf lvl 19 shaman and we tear up the field in the end who cares if u can't tank aswell as a plate class aslong as u have fun playing ur class /shrug i don't care if a guardian will get picked over me in the future because playing a brawler/monk is the most fun ive had in a while good at tanking with all that dmg <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> yes it must be pretty annoying having lower lvl plate tanks picked over you but people still have the eq1 idea engraved into there brain i had loads of fun on eq1 with a group of just clerics and a necro lol <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> espeically doing ldons at lvl 65-70 was funny  theres so much diversity on eq2 which people have yet to realise</DIV>

[pillb]

Monks are more fun than guardians and zerkers and knights. It's because they sacrafice pure tanking but in exchange they get skills letting them CHOOSE how they want to play. They're more versitale. Stop crying that Guardians and zerkers can tank better... Sick of hearing all the babies on these forums. <div></div>

[Buggrit]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pillbub wrote:<BR>Monks are more fun than guardians and zerkers and knights.<BR><BR>It's because they sacrafice pure tanking but in exchange they get skills letting them CHOOSE how they want to play.<BR><BR>They're more versitale.<BR><BR>Stop crying that Guardians and zerkers can tank better... Sick of hearing all the babies on these forums.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>lol agree fully if u think about it about 20,000 people play monks and about 200 of those monks post on monk boards thats about 1 10th of the monks 175 post useful information or ask questions that leaves 25 whiners or so probally less than that</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my point is quit whining and get over yourself a very small number of you are whining were everyone else is happy with there class i admit gage and his friends have posted some good points but 80% of it is just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing that you can't be the l33t ub8r tankz that u were in eq1 velious era<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>bet im gonna get called a troll or a kid for that bit of information but oh well its the truth /shrug</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Buggrit on <SPAN class=date_text>04-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:51 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Buggrit on <SPAN class=date_text>04-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:53 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Buggrit on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 AM</span>

[-UGG-Andy]

<DIV>I can see a few posts that are probably gonna call down the wrath of the mighty Gage!</DIV> <DIV>he'll probably tell you the following;</DIV> <DIV>All tanks are meant to be equally good at tanking.</DIV> <DIV>Monks sacrifice taunting ability etc for DPS,not tanking ability.</DIV> <DIV>He'll tell you that,cos thats what the people who made the game say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said,i would'nt like a guardian,as they seem just too defensive and one dimensional,monks have more flexibility it seems.I would try a zerker though,they look fun,and are accepted as tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw,sorry if i im wrong Gage,this is not a serious post.:smileytongue:</DIV><p>Message Edited by -UGG-Andy on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:38 AM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

LOL I am a Guardian...and I know/realize that Monks are just as good tanks... Too bad some Monks havent figured that out as well =P <div></div>

[digitalfre]

<P>I would actually rather *not* tank, given the choice.  However, we only have 3 "fighter" types in our guild (me - Monk @34, Pally @49 and a Guardian @ 31), so I do end up tanking a lot.  If one of the other two are in the group, I defer to them as I'd rather be DPS.  I get enough of tanking when I solo.:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>There is no doubt that Monks can tank.  How well they can tank depends on who's sitting at the keyboard.</P>

[Oidan]

<DIV>The biggest problem of EQ2 is 2 things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. EQ1 misconceptions</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. People not only understanding their class but other clsses as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 2 biggest things that I always see is either a tanking issue or you do more DPS than me. Quite frankly no matter how much balancing they do, there will always be issues where people are not happy, that is a given. Another thing that is disheartening is the fact that this stage in the game, SOE does not even know what direction they are tanking. They can't come outright and say who does what because they know that can't guarantee anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have found that both Monk and Bruiser make exception tanks for everyday grping. The same could be said with any fighter based class. The only real determining factor is the skill that player brings to the table as well as the healer(s) standing behind them. Healers especially T5 have to really get in there and understand the pro's and con's of mitigation/avoidance tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I come across healers who only duo all of the time or are only used to healking 1 type of tank. They are hurting themselves and the grp because of their lack of diversity of game play and knowledge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also find it somewhat amusing but also sad that another brawler would believes and would lead others to believe the opposite is true hence our ability to tank. This is not an attack on that poster but I question your skill and the skill of your circle of friends. I really do feel sorry for you if you believe what you stated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I myself am not in a "small guild" but we only have a handful of 50's and have not raided any of the end game stuff yet but we will in time. I cant comment on that, the only thing I know is the info that you guys who post here put forth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I am in a pick up grp with a Plate based class and we are the same level, I will generally let them tank because like Sage said, we are pretty balanced. Yes we have more dps but do not, I repeat do not let the other tanks let you believe their dps is horrible. I have seen plate based tanks put up very decent numbers because they know their character well and have put the proper time into them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lots of misconceptions and that leads to others ingnorance.</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>-UGG-Andy wrote:<div>Monks sacrifice taunting ability etc for DPS,not tanking ability.</div> <div>He'll tell you that,cos thats what the people who made the game say.</div><div> Btw,sorry if i im wrong Gage,this is not a serious post.:smileytongue:</div><p>Message Edited by -UGG-Andy on <span class="date_text">04-26-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:38 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span>Actually according to a recent post by Moorgard, <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=45756#M45756" target=_blank>monks sacrifice defensive buffs for DPS</a>... "With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle." Which means dang it we should get better taunts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oidan wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lots of misconceptions and that leads to others ingnorance. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>QFE.</P> <P>I don't care what anyone's <EM>opinion</EM> about anything is.  Its when they try to take their opinion and form and mold it into a statement of fact.</P> <P>*THAT* irritates the [Removed for Content] out of me.</P> <P>Maybe you prefer to DPS, maybe you play in unskilled groups, maybe you play with a group from EQ1 who plays this game with that mentality, maybe your stats aren't aligned right, maybe your gear isn't right, maybe you don't use all of your skills how you should, maybe you don't understand how to be a tank period (meaning you would suck as a tank even as a guardian.)</P> <P>There are so many factors that affect class performance it isn't even funny.</P> <P>But the point is none of those things changes what the class is.  Just because you or others can't successfully do something, it doesn't change the scope or range of the class.</P> <P>Furthermore the simple fact that plenty of people day in and day out do the things you say aren't possible, just go to further discredit your opinion, although as an opinion its still very much valid...as long as you express it as such.</P> <P>As it stands right now in all but the most difficult raid situations (unless, like Jez, the raid is built for a brawler MT) then we can tank fine, just as any fighter played by a skilled player can.  Some have it easier than others as far as aggro control, mitigation, or mana efficiency, but every single one of us can do it.</P> <P>If you can't, speak for yourself, not the class.</P> <P>Besides, none of us know what is going to happen with the rather large, all encompassing and total gameplay changing patches they are putting on test.</P> <P>So no need to speak about that until its finished.</P> <P>Speak about the here and now, and here and now we are tanks.  If you can't tank, it doesn't make us not tanks, it makes you a less skilled one.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Ariven wrote: <P><SPAN></SPAN>Actually according to a recent post by Moorgard, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=45756#M45756" target=_blank>monks sacrifice defensive buffs for DPS</A>...<BR><BR>"With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle."<BR><BR>Which means dang it we should get better taunts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, in my defense that is how its *going* to be after the combat changes.  Not necessarily how it is now, although I have been wrong before.<BR>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ariven wrote: <p><span></span>Actually according to a recent post by Moorgard, <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=45756#M45756" target="_blank">monks sacrifice defensive buffs for DPS</a>..."With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle."Which means dang it we should get better taunts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <hr> </blockquote>Well, in my defense that is how its *going* to be after the combat changes.  Not necessarily how it is now, although I have been wrong before <div></div><hr></blockquote>I think it is at least partially how it is now too... looking at comparison between what I can do with my cursader, berserker and monk... and how the guardian I group with a lot keeps asking "dont you have any more buffs/wards/etc?" when I am MTing with my monk... There sure isn't a lot of maintained spell icons that come up with my monk.. but with my berserker I can have 12+ going at once... defensive buffs for me and the group as well as offensive buffs and various procs and whatnot...  and the monk in my guild closest to my berserker in level is 4 levels below and has met me in DPS... (against 1-3 mobs, we haven't checked vs large amounts of mobs yet)... so yeah I think its that way now.. or at least intended to be so... But I still want more taunts on my monk (heck, half my combat skills I use with berserker have hate attached to them, so if I am not MT, I might end UP being mt if I am not careful)... I find it a lot harder to keep agro with the monk than the serk... but not impossible as long as everyone fulfills their role properly... But then I still haven't broken 30 on the monk so I have a ways to go to see the middle and high end content and see how monk behaves there..</span><div></div>

[Nefari]

I just don't get it. I have posted this before...I have a static group of monk, guardian, ranger, templar, illus....and whoever we pick up that night.  Usually another Monk. The guardian is MT in most situations.  Kills just go quicker with me DPS'ing, and I really don't mind.  It's not an EGO thing. BUT here's the kicker....when we face harder stuff, 50+ or group x2 mobs....I TANK.  In our experiences, we operate BETTER with me as tank once I have had Transcendent Vision and all the Guardian off-tank buffs stacked on me.  And it's with ONE healer, and it's a ::GASP:: TEMPLAR. Here's the thing....with me as MT I can use all my taunts, hence getting more interruptions on casting mobs.  With taunts and special attacks, that's -5- different interrupts or stuns I can use to keep a mob from casting, 6 if it's not Epic and want to count a full Lunging Mongoose.  Once I have a lead in the Hate game, the Guard can use ALL his stuns/stifles/taunts and NOT get aggro off me (thx Lu'Sun and your Raging Soul).  My faster taunt regen and higher DPS allow me to keep aggro. I seriously think people that say they can't tank as a Monk just really have no clue about how to play their character.   There's more to it than engaging the mobs and hitting you special attacks as fast as they can recycle.  <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

who here besides Wiou has said that monks are not tanks?

[Brew01]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>After rereading my first post I should state that I posted it in haste and while being firmly [Removed for Content] off. So forgive me if I came off as a person who doesn’t like or can’t tank as a Monk. I can see how some of you might have perceived this believe me I do enjoy and perform well as a monk tank. <SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I do think that the perception from other players suck and I’m tired of defending my right to tank in a PICK UP group. THAT and only THAT is why I posted the previous post nothing more nothing less. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I’ve done almost every lvl doing quests and grouping with my old Static group. I was blinded by my ability to always have a group on stand by. Now I’m not in that perfect situation and I’ve had to conform to a DPS slot. <SPAN>   </SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I’m not complaining about Guardians being better then Monks at tanking.(IMO this isn’t totally true) </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I’m not complaining about Monks not being able to tank (because I know we can). </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>What I am complaining about is VERY valid and should be a concern with any monk who likes the class. It’s the amount of people who believe monks aren't viable tanks. These uninformed people who treat monks like enchanters with the ability to kick and taunt. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I apologize for going off on a tangent when I just need to live with. I’ve accepted it and I will continue the good fight. I was just at a week point in my battle and a bit on edge. </SPAN></P> <P>Also I have to disagree with you Wiou monks are indeed tanks.</P></DIV>

[woo]

<P>i think its 90% the person and 10% the class..</P> <P>on my server (oggok) im fairly well known for being a good tank.. and 99% of the time im picked to be tank -- main tank at that.  sometimes people iv never played with before will try bashing me, and i just show them what i can do (or kick em out of group for ignorance).  self buffed my stats are better than most guardians out there..  i use quick grey skills to get HO's and recieve heros armor a lot which compared to a lot of crappy people who dont even taunt let alone do HOs.  if i played a guardian, im sure id still be a good tank.. better? my stats might be better.. but it really wouldnt be night n day i dont think.  the difference is there, and its noticable.. but i feal that its more the person than the player.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[mellowknees72]

<DIV>Bah, monks are awesome tanks!  People who don't believe so either:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Played a monk in EQ1 and are basing their opinion on that (monks in EQ1 were awesome damage takers, but could not taunt, which made it tough for them to "tank" in the true sense).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Have never played a monk in EQ2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Have never played in a group with a good monk tank in EQ2, or</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Just refuse to believe it for whatever reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm the co-leader of a little guild on Najena...and we have 3 tanks we usually rotate through - a 36 monk, a 34 monk (my main) or a 37 Paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of us are good tanks for different reasons - but the monks "tank" just as effectively as the Paladin, seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunatley, some folks get stuck in the mindset that you have to have a certain set of classes in a group to make it work.  EQ1 suffered from this same problem - no one ever believed me, but we used to do 3-person LDoN Dungeon adventures and WIN more often than we did when we filled a group up with other players - it was me (65 druid), a 65 monk and a 65 beastlord.  The only time we ever could not complete our dungeons in time was when the servers would crash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So don't believe everything you're fed, even when it comes on a nice-looking spoon.  Some people will always refuse to believe that a monk can tank, but they're nuts...hands down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We rock.  Just as much as other tanks.  That's all there is to it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If the person behind the monk really knows what their abilities and skills can do, they can rock even harder.</DIV>

[Wiou]

"Wiou you are full of it.  I get picked to tank and always have.  The only time I DPS is for raid content, and even then only if its x3 or x4.  I think Jezekiel is living proof that brawlers are tanks. <p>You haven't experienced enough of the game to know, plus you have a preconceived notion that we aren't a tank class, can't tank, and are better suited for DPS; no wonder you are of the opinion you are.</p> Your opinion of the class is fine, just don't try to speak the statement as fact, when it isn't." Just like yours is... Gage? I think if we were really tanks, I would be invited to a group atleast *once* asking to be tank -- and im 38. Dont be a hypocrite either. Like you havent made your notions with just your experiences on if a monk is a tank or not? Also its good to know that you know exactly what I think and why. I dont care if you're 'picked' to tank. You are the worst of the 'pickable' classes. If there were anyone else from the fighter tree they would have picked them instead. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wiou wrote:<BR>Just like yours is... Gage?<BR><BR>I think if we were really tanks, I would be invited to a group atleast *once* asking to be tank -- and im 38.<BR><BR>Dont be a hypocrite either. Like you havent made your notions with just your experiences on if a monk is a tank or not? Also its good to know that you know exactly what I think and why.<BR><BR>I dont care if you're 'picked' to tank. You are the worst of the 'pickable' classes. If there were anyone else from the fighter tree they would have picked them instead.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Heh, whatever man.<BR>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well well welll, </P> <P>that was a nice spot check...</P>

[Harlequiin]

<DIV>When EQ2 came out I started a Troubadour. Then, while in groups, I would hear, "We need a scout class for dps. Sorry." I would then get booted. Scratching my head, after I picked my jaw up off the floor, would then send the group leader tells explaining what a troubadour can really offer to a group INCLUDING dps. I was reinvited to the group but I declined.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eventually I started an alt...a warden. Different server same thing happened. "We need a healer for the group. Sorry." Booted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rolled up a monk. "We need a tank for the group. Sorry. We're gonna use this guardian." I left the group on my own this time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This incident while playing my monk happened just a week ago while in Stormhold. I needed a group to finish my AQ. At least I thought I did. That group used the guardian that was already in the group when I got invited. Someone 3 levels below me. They wiped. Then wiped again while getting their shards. All the while I'm pulling mobs into the atrium...soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems I'm getting punished by stigmas so instilled into people's heads from a totally different game, save the name. I'm not one to quit but it sure does begin to get frustrating. This is why I can't wait for the upcoming changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it does anything, it will open people's eyes to what a monk is supposed to do...tank.</DIV>

[Tully]

<DIV>I think he means Brother Raster for FBSS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Gage said he WOULD trade dps for ability to tank IN RAIDS.  He wasn't asking them to nerf DPS.  I would do this too since our best 2 combat art lines don't work against raid mobs.  We have no dps in raids and we can't tank, what else do you suggest?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sorry, i posted after reading page 1, forgot to look at the rest. </DIV> <DIV> the only time I dont tank in groups is if they already have a higher level tank in group when they invite me.  otherwise I let them know I can tank and they dont need another and nobody has questioned me in months.  i honestly dont care which role i take, i just want xp.  with that in mind, if you have a monk to tank, why get a 'better' tank when they are only marginally better on xp grind mobs, when you can get a dps class that is HUGELY better in dps?  the only time I complain about not tanking is if its going to hurt XP over time.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tully14 on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <DIV>When EQ2 came out I started a Troubadour. Then, while in groups, I would hear, "We need a scout class for dps. Sorry." I would then get booted. Scratching my head, after I picked my jaw up off the floor, would then send the group leader tells explaining what a troubadour can really offer to a group INCLUDING dps. I was reinvited to the group but I declined.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eventually I started an alt...a warden. Different server same thing happened. "We need a healer for the group. Sorry." Booted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rolled up a monk. "We need a tank for the group. Sorry. We're gonna use this guardian." I left the group on my own this time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This incident while playing my monk happened just a week ago while in Stormhold. I needed a group to finish my AQ. At least I thought I did. That group used the guardian that was already in the group when I got invited. Someone 3 levels below me. They wiped. Then wiped again while getting their shards. All the while I'm pulling mobs into the atrium...soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems I'm getting punished by stigmas so instilled into people's heads from a totally different game, save the name. I'm not one to quit but it sure does begin to get frustrating. This is why I can't wait for the upcoming changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it does anything, it will open people's eyes to what a monk is supposed to do...tank. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lol, dam you got it rough, yet another issue with them calling this game EQ2... i wonder what the odds are of them changing it to something else?</DIV></DIV>

[DUNN]

<P>Honestly you guys should not complain, try being a SK!!!! apperently we suck.</P> <P>Once im my 20's (24 i beleive) i was in varsoon getting a pick up group.  We had 2 healers 2 monks me (SK) and a scout. Now both monks where higher lvl thanme 27 and 28.  Guess who got to tank? That is right me, even after i said let the monks tank. The monks declined and  "said no go ahead" and i began to take the beating that they wouldn't of gotten.  Sure we did ok but i was always less than 20% health every fight.  What did this accomplish in the end?</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Everyone im my group to think that SK where crappy tanks and Monks/Bruisers DPS.   See where some  of the stigma comes from. LOL </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P>Message Edited by DUNN on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:16 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by DUNN on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

haha, thats a good one, just over complicating nothing in the heads of the feeble minded to begin with...

[Wiou]

WELL said, pillbub <div></div>

[Wiou]

YES we're in the fighter line YES we're supposed to be tanks YES we can be tanks YES we're the worst of the tanking line (always assuming besides bruisers) -- In theory, of course. We're so caught in the middle its hard to argue whether we ARE one thing or not. It really is. YES we're decent -- or in many cases 'good' at both, in specific situations. We are the red headed step childs of tanking and DPS. But hell, we're fun. And I enjoy every second of my monk; always have, always will. Thats just, well, my take of it. Ive just become way too bitter in my experiences I guess. I tank for about 5% of the groups im in, and I can really tell a difference and its discouraging. Who knows, maybe I honestly havent given it too much of a shot. And also people on my server could just be on a bias against monks. /shrug <div></div>