Class balance post by Moorgard...opinions?

[MoonglumHMV]

<DIV>I just saw this post from Moorgard...just wanted to see other's opinions on it...not necessarily regarding the scouts in general, but mostly the general comments he makes about class balancing and what not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:<BR></DIV> <P>Scout classes aren't being ignored. The fact that we haven't made a lot of specific changes to them yet, other than lots of bug fixes, does not mean we never intend to do anything about them. But we can't address every single class at the same time, so there has to be some that are looked at first and some that are examined later. Generally speaking, there were other classes more direly in need of attention than scouts have been, but scouts will have their time under the magnifying glass soon.</P> <P>Some people want to take my quotes and fashion them into absolutes, when in fact most of my statements are intentionally free of such pitfalls. It's not because I want to string players along or avoid issues, but because of the fact that this is a game that will change. If I were to say that ClassX will always do more damage than ClassY, then for the rest of time people would be clinging to that post as a legal binding contract. MMOs don't work that way. All I can tell you is what we intend for the near future, and everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change.</P> <P>Scouts are in something of a unique position compared to other archetypes, as they are arguably the least linear of all of them. They do lots of damage, but DPS isn't all they do. They can tank a lot of encounters fairly well, but they aren't the best tanks. They have lots of very nice utility abilities, but utility alone doesn't define who you are. And this makes the archetype the trickiest to balance in a way that people won't complain about, because there are players who want different aspects of the class to be emphasized over other facets, and not everyone will agree on which is most important.</P> <P>Keep in mind that DPS doesn't exist in a vacuum. If a class has an ability that increases the DPS of others, that's a factor. If another class has the ability to reduce the DPS of the target, that's a factor in both group DPS and healing. It isn't your own DPS numbers alone that show your benefits in a group or solo situation.</P> <P>Think of what balance literally means: it's weighing various factors against each other. While there is some balance at the archetype level, it is refined further at each class and subclass. Sorcerers give up most of their defense for high offense, whereas enchanters are giving up defense for a combination of damage and crowd control. Bards don't have as much personal DPS as other scouts, but they have the greatest potential to increase the damage output of others. Every class should have some little nuances like this that differentiate them. The trouble is, even players of that class won't agree on what they want that uniqueness to be.</P> <P>Look at some of the posts in this thread. "Scouts SHOULD be this. Mages SHOULD be this." As much as you might have opinions on your class based on preferences from other games, we're the ones who define what each class is in our game. And I'm not going to give you absolute statements that paint myself or the team into a corner, because every player is going to weigh all the various nuances of their class differently. Just because you don't agree with the decisions we make about class abilities does not make them wrong, nor do the decisions we make invalidate your opinions.</P> <P>The whole notion of class balance is 90% emotion and 10% fact. That's just how it is, because it means something different to everyone. No MMO with a significant number of subscribers is ever going to achieve balance that makes everyone happy unless they make class distinctions absolutely meaningless in one way or another. We prefer not to go that route, which means there will forever be thread after thread on these boards complaining that ClassA is completely out of balance compared to ClassB.</P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>It sounds to me like he is crafting an escape clause so they can get out of archetype balance, personally.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>Just because I love the game being balanced that way doesn't mean I thought it would last.</P> <P>It was probably to much to hope for.</P> <P>I expect we'll start seeing subclass balancing and FoTM classes soon enough.  </P> <P> </P>

[adrian]

<span><blockquote> <div> </div> <div> <hr> </div> <div> <hr> </div> <div>Moorgard wrote:</div> <div></div> <p> which means there will forever be thread after thread on these boards complaining that ClassA is completely out of balance compared to ClassB. </p> <p> </p><hr> A true realist - he understands that whatever happens, there willl always be one whiner who thinks he knows what is best for all classes, and how they should be "fixed" when directly compared to his own character. Balance isn't about making everyone happy, it is about working out how to make the experience fun, challenging and rewarding for ever distinct set of classes. I would prefer that they fine tuned things, rather than make wholesale changes that would have huge impact on anyone that has taken months to build up their character, only to find it suddenly overpowered and no longer challenging, or inexplicably gimped for no other reason than to make others feel stronger. As a Ranger and a Guardian, I've seen both ends of the spectrum. I have been around other Rangers that moan endlessly about nerfs that have happened, and watched others moan endlessly about nerfing that should happen to my Guardian. At the end of the day, I don't look at everyone elses toon and worry about how they compete with my class. I just play EQ2 for fun. Anyone that makes a lifestyle choice that revolves around a 5 hour a day trolling habit to try and make the point that their class should be the lords of Norrath isn't worth the time anyway. Hopefully, that quote points to future changes being based on need rather than emotive desire by any class.   <p></p> <p> </p><hr> <p></p> </blockquote></span><div></div>

[pillb]

<span><blockquote><hr>adrian76 wrote:<span><blockquote>Anyone that makes a lifestyle choice that revolves around a 5 hour a day trolling habit to try and make the point that their class should be the lords of Norrath isn't worth the time anyway.</blockquote></span><hr></blockquote> You just described Gage-Mikel</span><div></div>

[Amanojak]

<P>Oh the irony....</P> <P>No more gospal truth now.</P>

[ugl]

Good news that they have not painted themselves in a corner with the archtype system and absolutue equal stuff.     It would have made a extremely boring game.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR>Good news that they have not painted themselves in a corner with the archtype system and absolutue equal stuff.     It would have made a extremely boring game. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Instead they'll just make EQ1 again <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pillbub wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> adrian76 wrote:<SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Anyone that makes a lifestyle choice that revolves around a 5 hour a day trolling habit to try and make the point that their class should be the lords of Norrath isn't worth the time anyway.</BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You just described Gage-Mikel<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oh whatever.  I troll way more than 5 hours a day.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>04-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>well im a happy camper, that was really my last string with the game honestly, since that is come about and the first expansion will be at E3 in the next month or something like that....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im good to go again for another 3 months till my eyes bleed!!!!</DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Of course he never outright said they were abandoning the archetype system at all.</P> <P>He simply left his options open, as he always does.</P> <P>We are just assuming, as we always do.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>I really don't care anymore, Matrix Online is pretty fun, least least until I get to 50.  Then I have City of Villians beta to play, etc etc.</P> <P>They can do whatever they want, I'll still be here to talk about it.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>No MMO with a significant number of subscribers is ever going to achieve balance that makes everyone happy unless they make class distinctions absolutely meaningless in one way or another. We prefer not to go that route, which means there will forever be thread after thread on these boards complaining that ClassA is completely out of balance compared to ClassB. <P> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well i dont know gage... that sounds kinda like what he said to me, but i have a stigmatism in my left eye and words tend to be backwards when i read. :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mommy says its because the words are my friends and they think im special so they tell me different things from everyone else.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>No MMO with a significant number of subscribers is ever going to achieve balance that makes everyone happy <FONT color=#ffff00>unless they make class distinctions absolutely meaningless in one way or another.</FONT> We prefer not to go that route, which means there will forever be thread after thread on these boards complaining that ClassA is completely out of balance compared to ClassB. <P> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well i dont know gage... that sounds kinda like what he said to me, but i have a stigmatism in my left eye and words tend to be backwards when i read. :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mommy says its because the words are my friends and they think im special so they tell me different things from everyone else.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You don't have to do that to make the archetype system work.</P> <P>You can have all kinds of distinctions.</P> <P>What you want is different utility and a different job, other than tank, along with increased DPS.</P> <P>That, however, does break the archetype.<BR></P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>You don't have to do that to make the archetype system work.</P> <P>You can have all kinds of distinctions.</P> <P>What you want is different utility and a different job, other than tank, along with increased DPS.</P> <P>That, however, does break the archetype.<BR></P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>??????? gage do you even know what you are saying???????</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>read what you just posted and lets try this one more time....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Whats the difference between mitigation called avoidance and avoidance called mitigation? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Whats the difference REALLY between deflection and block skill?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Not a darn thing gage...think before you type, that excerpt came straight from moorgards post.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>i dont want to argue with you of all people about this. but for the record STOP saying that i want us to take a different role outside of tanking, cause i dont. I want to have a definate spot on either end of the spectrum. i dont care which one it is. If a dps increase keeps me in the raid party- thanks soe. If a tanking increase keeps me in the raid party as primary offtank above another...- thanks soe.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>But anything below one of the two isnt acceptable as being a less than guardian tank and a less than brigand dpser. Im getting old now gage, good ole level 40 now. Im looking to the future of my class, and thats definately on a personal note. While i realize and you cant seem to grasp, that monks will always be out tanked by guardians, and its going to stay that way. So rather than compete within a losing battle, ill most definately take a FD that works 55-60% of the time on all mobs up to level 55. And in that same breath i will also take a dps increase so that i wont be beaten out by ALL scouts in a dps role. We know the bards are going, both of them, we know the predators are going, wizards/warlocks, both the enchanters are going definately. so guess what- </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>me and that swashbuckler are gonna have a fight about that spot!! - lol = im just playing around = but seriously though gage. your spot will never be in the front of the raid mob more than 75% of the time while you play unless you magically pull aggro somehow. </FONT></P> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>So maybe you too should spend your time trying to define your class as a subtank, with good utilities and needed buffs to fall back on as well. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>THAT IS WHAT IM DOING.... in case you seem to miss it.</FONT></DIV>

[Wiou]

each class is strangely balanced in their own way right now. For every disadvantage there is an advantage to argue it. <div></div>

[Nemi]

Sage, I'm tired of the arguments so I'm not going to respond to your post.However I will say this:I chose a Figher because I wanted to Tank for my Guild/Group. I chose Monk because I liked the concept. If now, they abandon their previous pledge to allow all subclasses to fulfil the Archetype role then I'll probably just quit. I have no interest in playing a second rate tank that only gets to Tank when its scraping the bottom of the barrel time.I fear for the future, I agree with Gage that SoE seem to be crafting an escape route.<hr>Moorgard said:Some people want to take my quotes and fashion them into absolutes, when in fact most of my statements are intentionally free of such pitfalls.<hr>The only quotes I have taken are:<i><u>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=13301&query.id=0#M13301</u></i>"To be clear once again: brawlers are intended to be tanks."<i><u>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=8186&query.id=0#M8186</u></i>"Anyhow, the goal isn't to make brawlers and other fighters exactly the same. We still want there to be flavor and fun that makes each of them unique. But we also want all tanks to be able to do their job, and we feel these changes will help with that."<i><u>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1088&query.id=0#M1088</u></i>"Brawlers do have a defined role in our game: they are tanks. Their method of tanking is based on avoidance and deflection rather than mitigation. Brawlers do more damage overall (both through base damage and arts) than other fighters. They are not intended to compete with scouts, though, nor do scouts compete with them as tanks.""As a brawler, I am very pleased with my tanking abilities. I don't use any special techniques or tricks; I just do the things a tank is supposed to do: manage aggro, take damage, etc."<hr>So, from the above I've taken it to mean that Brawlers are intended to be tanks, to fulfil the role of a tank for a group/raid and to do it differently from Warriors. I'm sorry if I've somehow taken the above out of context.

[TheMeatShie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nemi wrote:Sage, I'm tired of the arguments so I'm not going to respond to your post.However I will say this:I chose a Figher because I wanted to Tank for my Guild/Group. I chose Monk because I liked the concept. If now, they abandon their previous pledge to allow all subclasses to fulfil the Archetype role then I'll probably just quit. I have no interest in playing a second rate tank that only gets to Tank when its scraping the bottom of the barrel time.I fear for the future, I agree with Gage that SoE seem to be crafting an escape route. :::: insert a bunch of quotes ::::::So, from the above I've taken it to mean that Brawlers are intended to be tanks, to fulfil the role of a tank for a group/raid and to do it differently from Warriors. I'm sorry if I've somehow taken the above out of context.<hr></blockquote>If you chose a monk in the thought that every class in the fighter archetype would be exactly the same in every aspect of the game and every situation, i pity your bad choice. Personally, i would not want to play a game where there were 6 classes that were exactly the same, but had different avatars with different named buttons. Did you seriously say to yourself when you rolled a monk "i want to be able to be the best at taking blows from mobs that would lay out many other people" or was it more along the lines of "this class gets invis, feign death, mend... they have some really neat abilities that could help me alot, i like that concept"... if it was the first, im sorry archetype system is misleading - if it was the second, um, you sacrificed defense for utility/dps. Sony implied that everyone in each archetype could fill the roles of that given archetype... as far as i have been shown, this still is true... After playing both Paladin to 65 and Warrior to 70 in everquest1, i believe balance between the fighter classes is more balanced in eq2 than it ever was in eq1, by a large margin.  How many monks have the abilities to even face to face a raid mob that is considered challenging content for a guild in eq1 (one that is equipped to par of guild)... You dont see it happen... It is possible in eq2 at this point.  It may take more mana and strategy to keep them up then a guardian, but it is definately doable. His point about people taking his comments out of context are exactly what you are proving to be true, when devs release a statement people jump on it like the holy grail, and use it as a empirical scientific fact that it is how the universe must be, but people read different words differently, so hence "out of context" from what he intended it to mean.</span><div></div>

[Nemi]

Oh and Sage, the second last quote about Brawlers not competing with Scouts was the whole basis of my arguments with you. That post there makes absolutely clear, we are NOT a DPS class nor will we be.

[Nemi]

I like how you managed to delete from my post the parts that matter:I'll do it again for you:"Anyhow, the goal isn't to make brawlers and other fighters exactly the same. We still want there to be flavor and fun that makes each of them unique. But we also want all tanks to be able to do their job, and we feel these changes will help with that."Can you read? All do their job, but with their own flavour and uniqueness.I chose a monk because the Devs stated that all Fighters will do the job of a Fighter and each will have its own flavour and uniqueness.I didn't choose Monk for FD, Invis or Heal. I never knew they had those skills when I picked the class, I picked Monk because they concept appealed to me rather than a hulking pile of metal. If SoE don't want players to make choices from Dev posts, then they should stop posting.The Archetype system was heralded to prevent 'hybrid-syndrome'. All subclasses fulfil the role of the archetype. Brawlers are tanks. All do their job.I don't see how that is out of context, even Moorgard puts it:"To be clear once again: brawlers are intended to be tanks."Hardly ambiguous is it?

[Nefari]

I must be missing something.... I'm 47th.  I tank quite often.  My regular group consists of 47monk x2, 47ranger, 45 guardian, 45 templar and 47 illusionist. I usually let the Guardian tank on regular stuff, I tank the hard stuff (^^^, boss mobs, etc etc).  It works well for our group.  When one of the group is absent we'll usually pick up a random person...and they are surprised the Monk is tanking, with only one healer, and a TEMPLAR at that!  (I thought we couldn't tank with a templar?) I'll agree the Guardian mitigates damage better than I...he's supposed to.  My Avoidance is close to 20% higher than his.  There have been instances on group x3/x4 mobs where it's known I might have trouble taking that first "BOOM" of dmg...so I'll let the Guardian pull for my guild.  From our experience, I'm the better tank AFTER that initial BOOM, so I'll take the aggro back and tank from there on out.  Granted he is 2 levels below me...but is 2 levels that huge of a deal?  That those 2 levels would make me SO much better than him after the initial BOOM?  I say no.  I say I'm better at certain things, and HE'S better at certain things.  With each other's off tank buffs, we make a great tanking team. IMO, people want too much for their class.  Most people have no "big picture" ability, to see that the game is PRETTY DARNED CLOSE to balanced the way it is (disregarding healer problems, and illusionist/coercer initial aggro problems) All across Monk and Bruiser boards I see people posting, "I just want to be a viable tanking option..."  Guess what?  YOU ARE.  You're just not great at mitigation. This is a TEAM GAME, 6-24 people.... IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Nemi]

You are missing something.Everything is about to change. Raids are being re-assessed, MoBs are being buffed. Lots of changes are coming in LU#7.Noone is arguing that Brawlers can't tank 1 to 50. The debate is whether there should be 1 subclass for raids and the others to be poor-mans DPS.SoE are staying very tight-lipped regarding subclass roles and the archetype system but Moorgards latest post seems to hint that they will be moving away from Archetype balance and into subclass balance.Again that doesn't really tell us much. However, the fact is at present, noone comes close to a Guardian tanking raid mobs. They have +20-30% mitigation on us, more HPs than us and equal avoidance to us. And as long as SoE continue to balance Raid mobs for this imbalanced setup, other tanks will never stand a chance.I'm not saying WE can't do it. I'm stating that we shoud CONTINUE to do it and be able to tank Raid mobs.

[-Aonein-]

<P>Reason its all changing so dramatically and so fast is because so many people are calling out for PvP and there looking at introducing PvP, so instead of having the game balanced around a PvE enviroment, they now have to balance it around ourselfs, then build the game enviroment around us to keep PvP balanced, which is the reason for some of the big nerfs of recent.</P> <P>Depending on how they go with PvP here, can you imagine if a Berserker run into a arena with Rampage ready to fire if they didnt do what they did to it recently in LU#7? He would lay the entire arena to waste, and Wardens healing powers if not toned down would of made a Brawler near invinceable in a PvP enviroment if they were grouped. But that is of course, if they allow grouping, which ive no doubt they will allow it.</P> <P>This is why there more then likely holding back on Scouts and certain other class's balancing, because its going to be hard to pull everyone into line to be formidable opponents in a PvP enviroment, everything is going to change ALOT from now till then, going to be very very interesting to see where they go with it to be honest.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Nemi]

I'd be surprised if SoE put that much emphasis on PvP Aonein. You could be right, but I get the feeling that PvP in EQ2 is going to be completely different to that in WoW, EQ1 or SB. I doubt even that PvP will be the same as how you fight MoBs. I think those asking for PvP will get a shock when it arrives.

[-Aonein-]

<P>I turely hope its a very unquie style of PvP, cause i cannot not tell you how tired i am of the same walk in, kill or be killed style, i need flavour, Old fantasy style, Gladitor style, rarr, the Berserker in me is wanting to come out. :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[kerra]

Sounds like he is putting on a band aid before the wound is cut.

[MoonglumHMV]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>I turely hope its a very unquie style of PvP, cause i cannot not tell you how tired i am of the same walk in, kill or be killed style, i need flavour, Old fantasy style, Gladitor style, <FONT color=#ffff00>rarr</FONT>, the Berserker in me is wanting to come out. :smileywink:</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>rarr...?!?!!?  sounds more like the lion cub in you wanting to come out...<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  oh..wait...I did get killed by a lion cub in TS yesterday...nevermind...that does actually scare me !!!!!<BR>

[SomeDudeCRO]

My interpretation, he is talking about balance within an archetype, not across archetypes. Nothing there which suggests to me that some subclasses will be able to fill the primary role of a different archetype better than subclasses from the intended archetype.  For example, a Ranger will tank better than a Bruiser but a Bruiser will out DPS a bard (remember, like he said, DPS does not exist in a vacuum). <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Reason its all changing so dramatically and so fast is because so many people are calling out for PvP and there looking at introducing PvP, so instead of having the game balanced around a PvE enviroment, they now have to balance it around ourselfs, then build the game enviroment around us to keep PvP balanced, which is the reason for some of the big nerfs of recent.</P> <P>Depending on how they go with PvP here, can you imagine if a Berserker run into a arena with Rampage ready to fire if they didnt do what they did to it recently in LU#7? He would lay the entire arena to waste, and Wardens healing powers if not toned down would of made a Brawler near invinceable in a PvP enviroment if they were grouped. But that is of course, if they allow grouping, which ive no doubt they will allow it.</P> <P>This is why there more then likely holding back on Scouts and certain other class's balancing, because its going to be hard to pull everyone into line to be formidable opponents in a PvP enviroment, everything is going to change ALOT from now till then, going to be very very interesting to see where they go with it to be honest.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which, if your statement is true, is why PvP sucks.</P> <P>Because balancing for PvP ruins other aspects of the game.</P> <P>Which is why I play this more than WoW, because the boards are nothing but whiny rants about PvP balance.</P> <P>I loathe PvP.</P> <P>But anyway, its not a true PvP system like EQ1 or PvP servers.  It's probably like City of Villians with the dueling arenas.<BR></P>

[kerra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I loathe PvP.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But anyway, its not a true PvP system like EQ1 or PvP servers.  It's probably like City of Villians with the dueling arenas.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>What do you think about this then Gage? I mean will you continue to play after they start this?</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:<BR></P> <DIV>Also, we're taking the first step towards introducing PvP competition with the introduction of a new type of combat! <BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV><p>Message Edited by kerra on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[Gaige]

Just what I said.  I think its going to be some sort of dueling system in the arena... *OR* some way to let evils fight goods in some sort of solo instance type thing.

[kerra]

I know I Edited my post..The real question was will you continue to play EQ2?

[JojoTheDog]

<P>Yay for Moorgard.</P> <P>Complete agreement, there will always be complainers.</P> <P>Like that he is making a stand and saying they prefer classes to have some diversity.</P> <P>.... are the devs still on your side Gage?</P> <P>level 44, still soloing group mobs, still tanking for groups,</P> <P>I think there needs to be some changes, but overall</P> <P>5 Star to the devs.... (SWG was my last game, im easy to please)</P>

[Nerill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:<BR></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff3300 size=5><STRONG><EM><U>everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change.</U></EM></STRONG></FONT></P> <P></P> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>LMFAO !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See ya Gage !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun in another MMORPG and you can start preaching in their forums the Gospel according to Gage !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Monks are Tanks ! That is what the devs prmosied! It it will never change. I am a Tank."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Mages Nuke. Tanks Tank. Scouts Stab. Healers Heal."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LMFAO !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just keep reading it until it sinks in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game <STRONG>will</STRONG> evolve and the player's opinions <STRONG>DO</STRONG> matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't like it ? See ya ! Don't let the door hit you in the .... well ... you know. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LMFAO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bonesbro]

<DIV>Enough with the petty bickering.  You're degrading the signal to noise ratio of the forum.</DIV>

[Nerill]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bonesbro wrote:<BR> <DIV>Enough with the petty bickering.  You're degrading the signal to noise ratio of the forum.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sorry, but after listening to Gage dictate how the game is and will always be. Many of us are tired of his mouth. I apologize for rubbing his nose in it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But it feels sooooooooooooo good ! :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content]</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kerra wrote:<BR>I know I Edited my post..The real question was will you continue to play EQ2? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It depends on what happens.  I'll always keep my account active, but if it gets *$%#&! I'll just keep playing Matrix Online.<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JojoTheDog wrote:<BR> <P>Yay for Moorgard.</P> <P>Complete agreement, there will always be complainers.</P> <P>Like that he is making a stand and saying they prefer classes to have some diversity.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>.... are the devs still on your side Gage?</FONT></P> <P>level 44, still soloing group mobs, still tanking for groups,</P> <P>I think there needs to be some changes, but overall</P> <P>5 Star to the devs.... (SWG was my last game, im easy to please)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, pretty much.  He hasn't said anything definitive yet.  Like I said he just looks like he is crafting an easy out clause "in case".<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nerill wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bonesbro wrote:<BR> <DIV>Enough with the petty bickering.  You're degrading the signal to noise ratio of the forum.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sorry, but after listening to Gage dictate how the game is and will always be. Many of us are tired of his mouth. I apologize for rubbing his nose in it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But it feels sooooooooooooo good ! :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content]</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You aren't rubbing my nose in anything but your stupidity you [Removed for Content].  Did Moorgard say anything about us not being tanks, about doing away with the archetype system, about us outdamage scouts?</P> <P>No.</P> <P>In fact the post wasn't even about fighters.</P> <P>All of their changes still dictate the system, like I said, we are all assuming stuff over some vague statement he made to assure he can always say "things change".</P> <P>I'm glad you showed up though, I missed your stupidity. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Oh, and I do play other games and post on their forums, and it isn't the Gospel According to Gage its:</P> <P>Gaming Gage's Way.</P> <P>My way, or no way, because I am the best!</P> <P>Edit: Oh yeah and his statement, which you love so much, about "everything *can* change" could mean anything.  You are simply taking it to mean what you want, because you want it.</P> <P>I could take it to mean that guardians won't always be the best tank; because *everything can change*.</P> <P>Or I could take it to mean that eventually EQ2 will be based on 1950's Earth, as a sitcom; because *everything can change*.</P> <P>Or I could take it to mean that eventually the monk class will be moved to a healer/priest class, because some would argue that monks are religious and tranquil; besides *everything can change*.</P> <P>Good thing you are open minded Nerrill, eh?</P><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 PM</span>

[kerra]

I beta tested Martix and was not overly impressed with it, send me a message and let me know how it is. I dont want to hijack this derailed thread any more than it is.

[i3ry]

Sadly most of the posters on this board lead me to believe the average monk player is 11 years old.  You guys are just looking so hard and manipulating everything you read to try to slam Gage.  Pathetic. <div></div>

[Nerill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:<BR></DIV> <P><EM>Gage</EM> , everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>[Removed for Content]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My posts are full of stupidity and I am a [Removed for Content] eh ? Why don't you add in "poopy-head" too while you are at it. :smileywink: How mature.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG ..... I'm rolling. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy Matrix online, Gage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buh bye now !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and .....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"<EM>everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change</EM>."<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LMFAO !</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nerill wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:<BR></DIV> <P><EM>Gage</EM> , everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>[Removed for Content]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My posts are full of stupidity and I am a [Removed for Content] eh ? Why don't you add in "poopy-head" too while you are at it. :smileywink: How mature.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG ..... I'm rolling. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy Matrix online, Gage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buh bye now !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and .....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"<EM>everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change</EM>."<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LMFAO !</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just because I play Matrix Online doesn't mean I'm quitting EQ2.  I don't know about you, but I can afford to pay for two MMOs at the same time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  In fact I currently pay for five <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Um, yeah your posts are full of stupidity and you are a [Removed for Content], but I'm sure you know that <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Yes Nerill.  I read it, I was one of the first ones to read it.  I also know that you are just reading it the way you want, like you always do.  I also don't care.  Even if they make monks do nothing but solo, I'll still play mine, I always have and I always will.</P> <P>Get used to me being here, because I'm not going anywhere.  So deal with it.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 PM</span>

[SniperKitty]

Morons.  Just ignore 'em Gage.  They're gonna drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.  They're nothing but infantile morons. <div></div>

[Shennr]

<DIV>As far as the nerfs that have been made to berserkers and soon to Wardens. It has nothing to do with Implementing PvP. The berserkers Rampage ability works by other mobs hitting them. Do you think that will work against casters. The Warden has its big instant heal because they do not get big Hp/AC buffs or Slows or Wards or Reactives. The reason why Wardens are getting nerfed is because other healers are just comparing their big heals with the Wardens instead of the whole class which I think is wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would love to see PvP implemented and think that Monks and bruisers will be great duelists. HO's are already helping the balance between classes soloing ability, hence the high and easy DD for the priests yet the low ones for fighters. Maybe HO's can be implemented into dueling as well. Also resists will take into play for dueling which can change how a player plays his class from NPC's to PC's. I would love to see how they do everything.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which, if your statement is true, is why PvP sucks.</P> <P>Because balancing for PvP ruins other aspects of the game.</P> <P>Which is why I play this more than WoW, because the boards are nothing but whiny rants about PvP balance.</P> <P>I loathe PvP.</P> <P>But anyway, its not a true PvP system like EQ1 or PvP servers.  It's probably like City of Villians with the dueling arenas.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well it all depends on how they introduce PvP here, it doesnt have to ruin the game and i dont think that all games are ruined by PvP.</P> <P>I myself like PvP in a arena based style, i dont like open PvP where you can attack anyone you see anywhere, like UO or Lineage 2, i never did like those, the game i liked, just not the PvP style, only because you had the chance of losing items that you worked so hard for.</P> <P>Shen in reguards to Rampage, its a group based AoE, so if a caster is in the group, its going to hit them, it wont matter where they are, the same as if you are invited to a group and are on the other side of the zone and there fighting mobs that cast group based dots or nukes, you take damage. I was using Rampage and Wardens as a example as too why there adjusting and altering so much now. Its all to do with making them balanced with in archtypes on a PvP level, which is why there holding back on alot of changes that they were going to do, because they dont want to fix it now and balance it in a PvE sense, then have to nerf it all over again to balance PvP. But im just assuming that because once a game introduces PvP, and the game was based on PvE, there is class's that will recieve nerfs and class's that will recieve increasements, its just the way it goes in a PvP enviroment, and even though this game will be still a PvE enviroment with the choice of going and doing PvP, it still has to be balanced around it.</P> <P>There is going to be alot more adjustments to come, its the reason there holding back on Scout adjustments to make sure it falls in line with PvP, cause if they increase them too much now, it will just result in a nerf later, and its also a reason they increased a Guardians self haste spell so that when they come up against a Brawler / Berserker or Scout, we arent over powering them in a melee sense. </P> <P>Going to be very interesting where they go with it, and i cant wait for some PvP action, and i hope you can use multiple groups for PvP, will be ashame if its just 1 on 1, or 1 group vs 1 group. I would love to see, group and raid PvP, and even tournaments, maybe even a ladder rating, and <STRONG><U>IF</U></STRONG> they use arena style format PvP, id love to see lions and bears and savages released into the arena and you fend those off while fighting the other group, or person or raid. As you level or rise in the ladder, the sceanrios with in the arena change and become harder and harder. Real Gladiator, brutal stuff. Blood baths. I watched to many violent movies as a kid, affected the left side of the brain :smileysad:</P></DIV>

[Nerill]

<DIV> <DIV>You've got some serious inferiority complex issues, Gage. I'm not sure, but maybe you feel that the more you <EM>say</EM> your "cool" and "everyone wants to be like me" .... you actually start to believe it yourself ? Maybe you think others will believe it ? I don't know really but you may want to seek help, kid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly I spent a week <STRONG>trying</STRONG> to "discuss" the issues with you and all you wanted to do was quote the Dev's, <STRONG>ingnore</STRONG> questions directed at you persoanlly where we asked for <EM>your</EM> <STRONG>specific ideas</STRONG> not just <EM>generalizations</EM>, misquote other people's posts and then finally start acting like a complete child until you got your fragile little feelings hurt in which case you cried to a board moderator like a 5-year girl old on the playground. LMFAO :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your mouth never shuts up. You contridict yourself constantly. Your completely selfish and quite frankly you <EM>do</EM> come across as very immature. You hijack any thread that you do not agree with and you twist around what other people say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Envy you ? Not in the least, Gage.... but you can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd rather you go enjoy Matrix online or any of the other games you play and leave us all alone, actually. Or .... try to stop playing 5 different online games, wipe off your fat stubby orange cheese puff stained fingers, take a shower and change your clothes and roll your tubby self out into the real world for a change. LMFAO :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buh bye now !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and .....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"<EM>everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change</EM>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Tully]

<DIV>From Moor:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> As much as you might have opinions on your class based on preferences from other games, we're the ones who define what each class is in our game.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unless my reading comprehension is rediculously low, that seems pointed to people wanting monks to be DPS since that is what we were in the 'other game' and since we are tanks in this game - it looks like they made a choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everything is subject to change, but why you all think that means we are on the way to DPS is beyond me...he even said its not DPS that determines usefullness in group.  Since we make anybody tank better and raise the group's offenses, sounds again like hes including us.  And with the new change to our self haste line, I see our dps is fine when not tanking.  People must agree cause I get groups to tank and dps, I could care less which role I take if the group does well.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tully14 on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nerill wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>You've got some serious inferiority complex issues, Gage. I'm not sure, but maybe you feel that the more you <EM>say</EM> your "cool" and "everyone wants to be like me" .... you actually start to believe it yourself ? Maybe you think others will believe it ? I don't know really but you may want to seek help, kid.   <FONT color=#ffff00>Ha Ha.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly I spent a week <STRONG>trying</STRONG> to "discuss" the issues with you and all you wanted to do was quote the Dev's, <STRONG>ingnore</STRONG> questions directed at you persoanlly where we asked for <EM>your</EM> <STRONG>specific ideas</STRONG> not just <EM>generalizations</EM>, misquote other people's posts and then finally start acting like a complete child until you got your fragile little feelings hurt in which case you cried to a board moderator like a 5-year girl old on the playground. LMFAO :smileyvery-happy:  <FONT color=#ffff00>Aww, you are hurting my feelings.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your mouth never shuts up. You contridict yourself constantly. Your completely selfish and quite frankly you <EM>do</EM> come across as very immature. You hijack any thread that you do not agree with and you twist around what other people say.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Oh, I'm the one who comes across as very immature?  Right.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Envy you ? Not in the least, Gage.... but you can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I love you too.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd rather you go enjoy Matrix online or any of the other games you play and leave us all alone, actually. Or .... try to stop playing 5 different online games, wipe off your fat stubby orange cheese puff stained fingers, take a shower and change your clothes and roll your tubby self out into the real world for a change. LMFAO :smileytongue:  <FONT color=#ffff00>Its not hard to find my pic online, because I'm so hawt I share myself with the world.  I'm not *tubby* but you can think so if it helps your self-esteem <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buh bye now !  <FONT color=#ffff00>Are you leaving?  Thank God.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and .....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"<EM>everything--EVERYTHING--is subject to change</EM>."  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yes, I myself am hoping that your internet gets shut off, your cc cancelled, your EQ2 subscription banned and the electricity to your house shut off <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Nerill]

<P>I don't know if this has been brought up before ... and I know it wouldn't <EM>completely</EM> solve the End-Game Raid MOB problem, but what if different Fighters in the Fighter Tree had innate resistances ?</P> <P>For instance:</P> <P>Cold - Berzerker</P> <P>Disease - Shadowknight</P> <P>Divine - Paladin</P> <P>Heat - Guardian</P> <P>Magic - Bruiser</P> <P>Mental - Monk</P> <P>Poison - No Fighter at this time or could be a lv 50 character trait choice</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm not talking about the <U>slight</U> increases we get to choose as character traits. I am talking about something along the lines of <STRONG>+1000 or + 2000</STRONG> to a certain resistance that all Fighters automatically get at Lv 45 or even lv 50.</P> <P>In that way, Raid MOBs could be "designed" so that there is a "preferred" Tank but hopefully kept in check so that they are still do-able even if the Guild did not have the "preferred" Tank online at the time for that MOB ( just a lot more difficult ).</P> <P>Would this idea do anything ? Couldn't that help secure Raid content to tank for <EM>all</EM> Fighters in the Fighter tree?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>*** (Edit: Or maybe the resistance could scale upwards as you level. Every 5 levels you would get +100 or +200 to your classes' innate resistance. ) ***</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Nerill on <span class=date_text>04-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[Nerill]

<P>You guys get all up-ity at me and blame me for starting another flame-war, yet when I bring up an idea or suggestion ... no one has jack-spit to say ??</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>So much for a calm "discussion" eh ?</P> <P>In another thread I suggested we get 1 ( or 2 ) more stance(s) at Lv 50. This <EM><U>defensive</U></EM> stance could be desinged any way the Dev's see fit as long as it allowed our Lv 50 Monk brothers and Sisters to tank <STRONG>Raid</STRONG> MOBs while lowering our DPS to what ever level they saw fit while in this Raid / defensive stance.</P> <P>Never got much of a response from the Community on that one either. /shrug</P> <P>You guys want to be able to Tank Raid MOBs at 50 but I <STRONG>rarely</STRONG> see any <EM><U>suggestions</U></EM> on how to do this, only the demand that we be able to.</P> <P>Wouldn't suggestions be something that a Development Team might like ... rather than just demands ??</P> <P>Maybe we could "brain-storm" some ideas and keep them all in the <STRONG>same </STRONG>thread for them to look over ?</P> <P>I'd be happy to try and come up with some ideas instead of constantly having to defend my position and reiterate this position when I am misquoted.</P> <P>Maybe we can get a "productive" thread going and put an end to all this bickering ?</P>

[Nemi]

<P>We can brainstorm till we die of boredom. We have no idea what changes are in progress/ being planned for LU#7. Offering ideas therefore to me is pointless.</P> <P>All I want is people to agree that Monks are Tanks and that therefore means Monks should Tank all Raid Content. Its up to SoE to balance that, most probably with a boost to Guardian effectiveness outside the MT role.</P> <P>All Fighters can tank 1 to 50, therefore the problem lies with the 1 or 2 Raid Mobs they have created.</P> <P>I don't mind if there are some mobs in the game that a Monk can't tank - As long as it is NOT a DESIGN decision that is going to continue as the expansions come out. If there is a MoB that requires a Guardian to tank, it should be the EXCEPTION not the rule.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>There are lots of things you can do to make MoBs Monk specific if that is the way you want to go:</P> <P>Make a mob ignore mitigation of the tank (yes that would require lowering its damage done, since you can't mitigate any of it). In this situation, an avoidance tank becomes King.</P> <P>^^</P> <P>We can brainstorm lots of ideas, but until SoE stop hedging their bets and come out with a definitive statement to clarify raid roles and archetype balance, its all speaking into the wind.</P> <P> </P>

[Rohlstu]

<P>Avoidance....that is the issue that really hurts monks at the higher end, because it is so unreliable and they are looking to change it once again.  What does this mean for our class?  I truly do not know.  What I do know is that as we get higher and higher and the encounters get tougher and hit so much harder that sometimes you wonder if they upped our 30% mitigation and if it even matters.</P> <P>Monks are are definitely unique in the aspect that as a tank, we rely on a skill that isn't truly working (believe Moor said something to the effect it is hard for the to code avoidance to be predictable, must be random), and that we have probably the worst armor to tank with.  At 38, with 34% mitigation and 78% avoidance, I just am not getting it.  I solo a 37 lamia temptress, one fight I am down to 10% health when over, next fight I am at 75% health.  First fight I am getting pummeled, next fight, barely touched.  The night  was basically a back and forth of the same.  In essence, yes, avoidance is random.</P> <P>Last thing is that I either missed it or it was never addressed, our innate shield ability and number one has it been factored in with the new "Mit/Avoid" model?  Does it scale as we level (meaning they gave us stats for a level 10 buckler and it doesn't change)?  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Rohlstusk wrote:<P>Last thing is that I either missed it or it was never addressed, our innate shield ability and number one has it been factored in with the new "Mit/Avoid" model? Does it scale as we level (meaning they gave us stats for a level 10 buckler and it doesn't change)? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <hr></blockquote>Brawlers, Monks, and Bruisers do not have and never have had a "built-in" or "innate" shield. That's a handy verbal shorthand for "an increase in Deflection which is the equivalent of a shield, buckler for Brawlers, round for Monks and Bruisers."Since Deflection improves as you level it's reasonable to assume that the Deflection increase improves along with it. OTOH it's probably the equivalent of an "average" round shield, not an exceptional one.

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Nerill wrote: <P>I don't know if this has been brought up before ... and I know it wouldn't <EM>completely</EM> solve the End-Game Raid MOB problem, but what if different Fighters in the Fighter Tree had innate resistances ?</P> <P>For instance:</P> <P>Cold - Berzerker</P> <P>Disease - Shadowknight</P> <P>Divine - Paladin</P> <P>Heat - Guardian</P> <P>Magic - Bruiser</P> <P>Mental - Monk</P> <P>Poison - No Fighter at this time or could be a lv 50 character trait choice</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm not talking about the <U>slight</U> increases we get to choose as character traits. I am talking about something along the lines of <STRONG>+1000 or + 2000</STRONG> to a certain resistance that all Fighters automatically get at Lv 45 or even lv 50.</P> <P>In that way, Raid MOBs could be "designed" so that there is a "preferred" Tank but hopefully kept in check so that they are still do-able even if the Guild did not have the "preferred" Tank online at the time for that MOB ( just a lot more difficult ).</P> <P>Would this idea do anything ? Couldn't that help secure Raid content to tank for <EM>all</EM> Fighters in the Fighter tree?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>*** (Edit: Or maybe the resistance could scale upwards as you level. Every 5 levels you would get +100 or +200 to your classes' innate resistance. ) ***</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Nerill on <span class=date_text>04-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Tsk, tsk, Nerill, don't be so impatient. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It's an interesting idea, but as things stand right now the devs could pretty well customize raid mobs if they wanted to.<UL><u>Within the Fighter Archetype</u>:<LI>Guardians are (or should be) Kings of Mitigation</LI><LI>Berserkers are Kings of Aggro</LI><LI>Monks are Kings of Avoidance</LI><LI>Bruisers are Kings of DPS</LI><LI>Paladins are Kings of Heal</LI><LI>Shadow Knights are Kings of Lifedrain</LI></UL>So create raids that are hard to maintain aggro on, raids that ignore some or most mitigation, raids that demand lots of DPS (hard to do, that one, as most DPS comes from other classes), raids that are best with extra healing or that require you to heal the mob (some interesting possibilities, there), raids that are extra-tough without Lifetap, etc. in addition to raids where the mob hits hard, thus benefiting more Mitigation.Of course, all of this completely ignores the other 18 sub-classes who need to be taken into account when designing encounters! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rohlstu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rohlstusk wrote:<BR> <P>Last thing is that I either missed it or it was never addressed, our innate shield ability and number one has it been factored in with the new "Mit/Avoid" model? Does it scale as we level (meaning they gave us stats for a level 10 buckler and it doesn't change)? </P> <P></P> <P></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Brawlers, Monks, and Bruisers do not have and never have had a "built-in" or "innate" shield. That's a handy verbal shorthand for "an increase in Deflection which is the equivalent of a shield, buckler for Brawlers, round for Monks and Bruisers."<BR><BR>Since Deflection improves as you level it's reasonable to assume that the Deflection increase improves along with it. OTOH it's probably the equivalent of an "average" round shield, not an exceptional one.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is interesting.  Where is this accounted for, I mean is it added to our actual deflection skill or is it some "trust us" type variable factored in somewhere?  I don't think it's added at all if added to our deflection skill, dinged earlier today and it's 196/196.</P> <P>This is what irks me about our class, irk being a strong word.  The other tanks can upgrade their shields to get better mitigation and stat bonuses, etc., we as monks have something....somewhere where we suppossedly get a little bit of a benefit.</P> <P>I will be very interested in the update notes coming up concerning combat just to see what direction we will be heading.</P>

[Rohlstu]

Heya Familyman, I found out where you posted the notes before!  Now it makes me lean towards the skill being more a "trust us" type variable.

[SomeDudeCRO]

FamilyMan, something along those lines is what I would like to see as well.  In general, greater mob diversity and variation of tactics/counter tactics. In addition to that, greater diversity amoungst support classes and the effect their buffs have.  For instance, an optimized Monk MT group would look much different than an optimized Guardian group. As it is now, things are over simplified to the point where simplistic statements like mitigation>avoidance are valid arguments.  That's quite narrow and dulls the game's potential.  Instead, I would like to see mitigation>avoidance on x mob, but not on y mob.  Palladin>Monk with x support classes but not with y classes.  Certain classes and their abilities shouldn't inherently/intrinsically be weaker than others, but should be more suited and more advantageous situationally.  Making these steps in my view, what I feel they have tried to all along but with varying success, would illiminate the holy trinity attitude, the useless and vital classes bias, and geniunely make the game more interesting for everyone. <div></div>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Rohlstusk wrote:This is interesting. Where is this accounted for, I mean is it added to our actual deflection skill or is it some "trust us" type variable factored in somewhere? I don't think it's added at all if added to our deflection skill, dinged earlier today and it's 196/196.This is what irks me about our class, irk being a strong word. The other tanks can upgrade their shields to get better mitigation and stat bonuses, etc., we as monks have something....somewhere where we suppossedly get a little bit of a benefit.I will be very interested in the update notes coming up concerning combat just to see what direction we will be heading.<hr>Heya Familyman, I found out where you posted the notes before! Now it makes me lean towards the skill being more a "trust us" type variable.<hr></blockquote>Yeah, I'm afraid it's a "trust us" deal. When the change was made we didn't have the current display that breaks down Avoidance by skill. There was no change to the Deflection skill values; they can only have changed the way that Deflection was factored into Avoidance in the back end.Monks can't upgrade Deflection with gear, no, save indirectly by buffing Agility. Monks can still buff stats by choosing dual-wield weapons with various stats. FWIW, Deflection as it stands is much more effective than the best tower shield.

[Nerill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>FamilyManFirst wrote:</P> <P>Tsk, tsk, Nerill, don't be so impatient. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>It's an interesting idea, but as things stand right now the devs could pretty well customize raid mobs if they wanted to.<BR></P> <UL><U>Within the Fighter Archetype</U>:<BR> <LI>Guardians are (or should be) Kings of Mitigation</LI> <LI>Berserkers are Kings of Aggro</LI> <LI>Monks are Kings of Avoidance</LI> <LI>Bruisers are Kings of DPS</LI> <LI>Paladins are Kings of Heal</LI> <LI>Shadow Knights are Kings of Lifedrain<BR> <HR> </LI></UL></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Patience .... [Removed for Content] is that ??? :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your idea about customizing Raid MOBs for specific Tanks is a good one as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't help but think my idea of giving all fighters innate resistances would be a little better and easier but of course I <EM>might</EM> be a little biased. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way, these are the kind of ideas that we as a community should focus our heated discussions on. Maybe we might make some progress. /crosses fingers</DIV>