Anyone else having problems holding agro?

[Yusonge]

Please let me start by saying I am in no way an expert. What im about to type is my opinion only. Ok with the disclaimer done. Last night a few guildies and I decided to do the Tomb of night. The group make up was me a 31 monk, a 31 defiler, 27 mystic, and a 34 wizzy. Now yes the group was small but we rocked the zone with only 1 death( that was to the named one). My problem was this. On any group that I pulled with more than 2 mobs there wasnt crap i could do to hold agro. I spapmmed my taunts, group buffs, aoe attacks. I would consistently loose agro. Now once agro was lossed all i had to do was target the one that ran away and hit a single taunt and i had him back and kept him for the rest of the fight. What it seemed to me was when one mob was close to dying the others forgot completely about me. Like i stated a single taunt and each mob was mine again. For the life of me i cant figure out what went wrong. Not enough players and too many heals thrown? I kinda dismiss this since the ones that peeled off me onto others it was random on who it attacked. The mystic could spam heals non stop and the wizzy who nuked once would get the agro. Next time the wizzy could spam nukes and the mystic who hasnt even engaged yet gets the agro. So i guess what i am asking is am I the only one who is experiencing weird agro issues? <div></div>

[woo]

never ever lost aggro.

[Dia]

<DIV>Ask your group to let you do the first HO wheel before any of them start. Personally I find that if I can get the first taunt HO wheel in before anyone else does anything I can keep aggro nomatter what they do. I usually dont even have to taunt for the rest of the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I dont get the first taunt HO I have hard time keeping aggro alot of the times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dwarven monk (32)</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yusonge wrote:Please let me start by saying I am in no way an expert. What im about to type is my opinion only. Ok with the disclaimer done. Last night a few guildies and I decided to do the Tomb of night. The group make up was me a 31 monk, a 31 defiler, 27 mystic, and a 34 wizzy. Now yes the group was small but we rocked the zone with only 1 death( that was to the named one). My problem was this. On any group that I pulled with more than 2 mobs there wasnt crap i could do to hold agro. I spapmmed my taunts, group buffs, aoe attacks. I would consistently loose agro. Now once agro was lossed all i had to do was target the one that ran away and hit a single taunt and i had him back and kept him for the rest of the fight. What it seemed to me was when one mob was close to dying the others forgot completely about me. Like i stated a single taunt and each mob was mine again. For the life of me i cant figure out what went wrong. Not enough players and too many heals thrown? I kinda dismiss this since the ones that peeled off me onto others it was random on who it attacked. The mystic could spam heals non stop and the wizzy who nuked once would get the agro. Next time the wizzy could spam nukes and the mystic who hasnt even engaged yet gets the agro. So i guess what i am asking is am I the only one who is experiencing weird agro issues? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sounds like the owlbear problem in nek forest..  first one drops and then all taunts you have tossed seem to be erased. Even with my berserker I dread having to tank those... it takes different tactics than normal and as a result requires a good team that is on their toes...  Have everyone scale back in damage output a bit and stay on the first mob so that you have time to directly target each creature in the encounter and do some direct damage and single target taunts on each. It will take longer for an encounter to go down, but if you are lucky then everything will drop about the same time.  If done right (and it is the same problem as with the owlbears) you should hold agro a lot better... The old standbys of aoe taunts and buffs dont seem to make a difference unless you directly target and do damage to the creatures yourself...</span><div></div>

[Yusonge]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Yusonge wrote:Please let me start by saying I am in no way an expert. What im about to type is my opinion only. Ok with the disclaimer done. Last night a few guildies and I decided to do the Tomb of night. The group make up was me a 31 monk, a 31 defiler, 27 mystic, and a 34 wizzy. Now yes the group was small but we rocked the zone with only 1 death( that was to the named one). My problem was this. On any group that I pulled with more than 2 mobs there wasnt crap i could do to hold agro. I spapmmed my taunts, group buffs, aoe attacks. I would consistently loose agro. Now once agro was lossed all i had to do was target the one that ran away and hit a single taunt and i had him back and kept him for the rest of the fight. What it seemed to me was when one mob was close to dying the others forgot completely about me. Like i stated a single taunt and each mob was mine again. For the life of me i cant figure out what went wrong. Not enough players and too many heals thrown? I kinda dismiss this since the ones that peeled off me onto others it was random on who it attacked. The mystic could spam heals non stop and the wizzy who nuked once would get the agro. Next time the wizzy could spam nukes and the mystic who hasnt even engaged yet gets the agro. So i guess what i am asking is am I the only one who is experiencing weird agro issues? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sounds like the owlbear problem in nek forest..  first one drops and then all taunts you have tossed seem to be erased. Even with my berserker I dread having to tank those... it takes different tactics than normal and as a result requires a good team that is on their toes...  Have everyone scale back in damage output a bit and stay on the first mob so that you have time to directly target each creature in the encounter and do some direct damage and single target taunts on each. It will take longer for an encounter to go down, but if you are lucky then everything will drop about the same time.  If done right (and it is the same problem as with the owlbears) you should hold agro a lot better... The old standbys of aoe taunts and buffs dont seem to make a difference unless you directly target and do damage to the creatures yourself...</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Ok let me make sure im understanding prperly... I should A. Use the HO taunt per other poster.   B. target each mob hit em a couple of times and the switch to the next mob? Everyone you else should target the first mob pulled while i rotate through the rest? If im understanding it right then i will give it a go this evening when we go through the zone again. And cause i forgot thanks all for the answers.</span><div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yusonge wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Yusonge wrote:Please let me start by saying I am in no way an expert. What im about to type is my opinion only. Ok with the disclaimer done. Last night a few guildies and I decided to do the Tomb of night. The group make up was me a 31 monk, a 31 defiler, 27 mystic, and a 34 wizzy. Now yes the group was small but we rocked the zone with only 1 death( that was to the named one). My problem was this. On any group that I pulled with more than 2 mobs there wasnt crap i could do to hold agro. I spapmmed my taunts, group buffs, aoe attacks. I would consistently loose agro. Now once agro was lossed all i had to do was target the one that ran away and hit a single taunt and i had him back and kept him for the rest of the fight. What it seemed to me was when one mob was close to dying the others forgot completely about me. Like i stated a single taunt and each mob was mine again. For the life of me i cant figure out what went wrong. Not enough players and too many heals thrown? I kinda dismiss this since the ones that peeled off me onto others it was random on who it attacked. The mystic could spam heals non stop and the wizzy who nuked once would get the agro. Next time the wizzy could spam nukes and the mystic who hasnt even engaged yet gets the agro. So i guess what i am asking is am I the only one who is experiencing weird agro issues? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sounds like the owlbear problem in nek forest..  first one drops and then all taunts you have tossed seem to be erased. Even with my berserker I dread having to tank those... it takes different tactics than normal and as a result requires a good team that is on their toes...  Have everyone scale back in damage output a bit and stay on the first mob so that you have time to directly target each creature in the encounter and do some direct damage and single target taunts on each. It will take longer for an encounter to go down, but if you are lucky then everything will drop about the same time.  If done right (and it is the same problem as with the owlbears) you should hold agro a lot better... The old standbys of aoe taunts and buffs dont seem to make a difference unless you directly target and do damage to the creatures yourself...</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Ok let me make sure im understanding prperly... I should A. Use the HO taunt per other poster.   B. target each mob hit em a couple of times and the switch to the next mob? Everyone you else should target the first mob pulled while i rotate through the rest? If im understanding it right then i will give it a go this evening when we go through the zone again. And cause i forgot thanks all for the answers.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> Yup, sounds like you got it...   try practicing on groups of owlbears if they are still high enough to last long while you switch targets.. </span><div></div>

[OgApostrap]

<DIV>Were you losing aggro to the wizard? I have alot of trouble holding aggro off wizard and warlocks, they dont seem to play like they are grouped.. just spawn their 700 or whatever dmg nuke over and over and just keep going even when they are being attacked.. that or run and die.. </DIV>

[kerra]

No I do not lose aggro "very" often but I have and it will occur in every class. Dont sweat it.

[RadricTyc]

<P>The problem you are running into could be sort of bug related, but my guess is that it has more to do with level.  First, let me start by saying that I have almost never lost agro to a single mob that I am trying to control, so this has nothing to do with singles.  The problem I experience with agro control is only when there are 2 or more mobs and there are DPS/healer members of my group that outlevel me.</P> <P>Consider this "Temple of Cazic-Thule" group:</P> <UL> <LI>Monk, Level 44 (me)</LI> <LI>Defiler, Level 45</LI> <LI>Wizard, Level 46</LI> <LI>Ranger, Level 44</LI> <LI>Necro, Level 44</LI> <LI>Guardian, Level 42</LI></UL> <P>Since I was highest level, and since the healer was a shaman, I was naturally the tank.  The guardian played offtank and used his defense buffs on me.  As you can see this was a pretty high DPS group.  The Wizard was the biggest damage dealer and from the very beginning I was worried about him out leveling me and what that would do to hate generation.</P> <P>The fights would go: </P> <UL> <LI>engage multiple lizardmen with a leadoff area taunt, </LI> <LI>pull them back to the group, </LI> <LI>do Heroic Opportunity with a finishing single taunt, </LI> <LI>cast Quiet Purity</LI> <LI>Kill the one I originally targeted</LI> <LI>Remaining mobs break at some point either before or after the first mob dies and attack the wizard or the Defiler</LI></UL> <P>I kept thinking man, what can I do.  How can I possibly remain at the top of these encounters' hate list with this group?  That's when I started cycle taunting.  The next fights went, for the sake of example consider a 3 mob encounter:</P> <UL> <LI>engage multiple lizardmen with a leadoff area taunt, </LI> <LI>pull them back to the group, </LI> <LI>do Heroic Opportunity with a finishing single taunt, </LI> <LI>cast Quiet Purity</LI> <LI>Land a couple hard hits on original target</LI> <LI>Switch target to next mob</LI> <LI>2 hard hits followed by a single taunt</LI> <LI>Switch target to next mob</LI> <LI>2 hard hits followed by a single taunt</LI> <LI>Switch to first mob (if it is still alive)</LI> <LI>Hit area taunt and kill it</LI> <LI>Continue the above pattern until all mobs are dead.</LI></UL> <DIV>This worked. The problem is that it drains you of power very fast.  All that hitting, buffing, and taunting consumes power.  I think part of the problem is that the shaman many times felt it was necessary t spam wards.  This of course leads to massive hate gain on his part.  Also, the wizard would do MASSIVE, and I do mean MASSIVE dps.  Since he was 2 levels higher than me, his hate generation was also higher.  The defiler was also one level higher so he shared the same problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the end of the day, while our hate generation is high enough to hold the attention of a single mob, when it comes to groups we have a bit more trouble.  This is especially true when your group contains damage dealers or healers that out level you.  I have grouped with Guardians and they do not have this trouble,  or at least the trouble is less noticable.  Maybe they have more area taunts, or maybe they have more effective area taunts, I am not sure.  All I can say is that anyone who claims they NEVER lose agro better back it up by trying a group like the one above and explaining how, other than cycle taunting, they manage it.</DIV>

[RadricTyc]

Oh and for the record, I have Adept 3 Focus Energy (area taunt).  It is a level 37 skill, so it's a tad old.  But, since I don't get another area taunt until level 50, I can't see how I could improve this beyond finding a master skill.

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>RadricTycho wrote: <div>At the end of the day, while our hate generation is high enough to hold the attention of a single mob, when it comes to groups we have a bit more trouble.  This is especially true when your group contains damage dealers or healers that out level you.  I have grouped with Guardians and they do not have this trouble,  or at least the trouble is less noticable.  Maybe they have more area taunts, or maybe they have more effective area taunts, I am not sure.  All I can say is that anyone who claims they NEVER lose agro better back it up by trying a group like the one above and explaining how, other than cycle taunting, they manage it.</div><hr></blockquote> Yup .. cycling through the targets with the dps staying on the first is how I do it..  I even did giants (and groups of giants) with my monk at level 26, with a 32 warlock, a 33 ranger, a 32 guardian, a 29 mystic and a 24 ranger in group... I could keep agro fine as long as they participated in the group agro management.. i.e. not spamming debuffs/large attacks just as I pulled..using the least amount of heals to keep me going if at all possible..etc.. (yes, the guardian deferred to me to tank, his request actually) I agree it requires more work on my part with my monk to maintain agro than it does with my berserker.. it always has.. but then berskerer has the built in taunt of Berserk state firing off...   But.. the owlbears (and a few other mobs) are very different.. you have to pay more attention to the rest of the group than normally... or they will break agro.. </span><div></div>

[Tully]

<DIV>Use the aoe taunt from level 40 training, I hardly ever lose agro unless i'm with big big dps.</DIV>

[Ala]

<P>I agree with a few posts above.  It doesn't sound like you have an aggro problem.  You just had a few encounters that gave you a (very) little problem.</P> <P>When I play the MT, if I lose aggro it's usually due to one of a few things: 1) One of the players not assisting me or 2) A nuker is spamming AoE or 3) A conjuror's pet decides to have a mind of its own.  But usually the pet works to our advantage by distracting one mob while letting us focus on the rest of the encounter (kinda like a mez).</P> <P>But yeah, we all lose aggro some of the time.</P> <p>Message Edited by Alarr on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 PM</span>

[Yusonge]

Thanks for all the answers. Its not normal for me to MT in my guild groups for i have a bruiser friend who i cant seem to catch on lvls. So he always MT's. It also helps that the defiler is his wife and they can communicate faster by simply talking. It just happened last night he was unable to play and i was given the role of MT. I have done it in the past but didnt for the life of me remember having this amount of problems maintianing agro. I will give all the advice here a go tonight when we head back into the Tomb of Night. <div></div>

[Momolicio]

One other small thing. Have your group with an assist key. Tell them hit the assit when you see me HAIL a mob. That way you can cycle mobs, and swap the whole crew as needed mid fight as needed. An assist train is still the best means of combat unless you have multiple ae. <div></div>

[woo]

<P>1. tell the group to assist you (or the MA if you have one), and if you catch someone not doing it -- boot them</P> <P>2. dont just taunt once at the begining, if your with a good scout or a nuke happy mage especially, taunt every time the timers are up.  (some may say "ooh noo my power drains then.."  guess what--your job is to hold aggro, there job is to kill the aggro.)</P> <P>3.  do group HOs as often as possible, try to make sure you only use your combat arts on these (if you have a group that can do them fast).  this not only helps w/ aggro and buffs, but helps control your power.</P> <P>4. use your Mend (or the equal), it builds aggro.  along w/ Face of the Mountain stuff..  use it right after the first taunts, this will boost aggro as well.</P>

[Wiou]

sometimes its tough if you never have trouble losing aggro, your wizard is slacking <div></div>

[Zaym]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yusonge wrote:<BR>Please let me start by saying I am in no way an expert. What im about to type is my opinion only.<BR><BR><BR>Ok with the disclaimer done. Last night a few guildies and I decided to do the Tomb of night. The group make up was me a 31 monk, a 31 defiler, 27 mystic, and a 34 wizzy. Now yes the group was small but we rocked the zone with only 1 death( that was to the named one). My problem was this. On any group that I pulled with more than 2 mobs there wasnt crap i could do to hold agro. I spapmmed my taunts, group buffs, aoe attacks. I would consistently loose agro. Now once agro was lossed all i had to do was target the one that ran away and hit a single taunt and i had him back and kept him for the rest of the fight. <BR><BR>What it seemed to me was when one mob was close to dying the others forgot completely about me. Like i stated a single taunt and each mob was mine again. For the life of me i cant figure out what went wrong. Not enough players and too many heals thrown? I kinda dismiss this since the ones that peeled off me onto others it was random on who it attacked. The mystic could spam heals non stop and the wizzy who nuked once would get the agro. Next time the wizzy could spam nukes and the mystic who hasnt even engaged yet gets the agro.<BR><BR>So i guess what i am asking is am I the only one who is experiencing weird agro issues? <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Never lost aggro unless one of three things happened:</P> <OL> <LI>I did not pull the group of mobs with my AoE taunt.</LI> <LI>I am not using my fastest weapons (I use Dual Wield instead of 2HB when pulling groups)</LI> <LI>My group is not assisting me and they are nuking or beating the crap out of mobs I am not fighting.</LI></OL> <P>So I would suggest that you evaluate the situation and fix the issue.  If you use your AoE Taunts, use your fastest weapons (which should be dual wielded) and ensure that EVERYONE in your party has you targeted (you are the MT right?) then you should never loose the Aggro.</P>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zaymot wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Yusonge wrote:Please let me start by saying I am in no way an expert. What im about to type is my opinion only.Ok with the disclaimer done. Last night a few guildies and I decided to do the Tomb of night. The group make up was me a 31 monk, a 31 defiler, 27 mystic, and a 34 wizzy. Now yes the group was small but we rocked the zone with only 1 death( that was to the named one). My problem was this. On any group that I pulled with more than 2 mobs there wasnt crap i could do to hold agro. I spapmmed my taunts, group buffs, aoe attacks. I would consistently loose agro. Now once agro was lossed all i had to do was target the one that ran away and hit a single taunt and i had him back and kept him for the rest of the fight. What it seemed to me was when one mob was close to dying the others forgot completely about me. Like i stated a single taunt and each mob was mine again. For the life of me i cant figure out what went wrong. Not enough players and too many heals thrown? I kinda dismiss this since the ones that peeled off me onto others it was random on who it attacked. The mystic could spam heals non stop and the wizzy who nuked once would get the agro. Next time the wizzy could spam nukes and the mystic who hasnt even engaged yet gets the agro.So i guess what i am asking is am I the only one who is experiencing weird agro issues? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Never lost aggro unless one of three things happened:</p> <ol> <li>I did not pull the group of mobs with my AoE taunt.</li> <li>I am not using my fastest weapons (I use Dual Wield instead of 2HB when pulling groups)</li> <li>My group is not assisting me and they are nuking or beating the crap out of mobs I am not fighting.</li></ol> <p>So I would suggest that you evaluate the situation and fix the issue.  If you use your AoE Taunts, use your fastest weapons (which should be dual wielded) and ensure that EVERYONE in your party has you targeted (you are the MT right?) then you should never loose the Aggro.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> I can use my aoe taunts, use my best weapons, ensure that all members of my group are targetting the same mob as I and can guarantee that with the owlbears when the first one drops the others break off me and scatter among the group causing no end of trouble getting them back under control.  This has happend time and time again with myself and others... The -only- thing I have found to circumvent this is to move quickly among the mobs doing some direct damage to them and single taunting them too.. and even then I -still- lose agro from time to time. With the extreme agro control with my berserker I <i><b>still</b></i> lose agro control when the first drops unless I take the extra measures.   To me this means that either 1) there is an issue with agro/hate on some mobs or 2) by design some mobs do not behave the same as the majority of mobs, requiring special efforts to handle them.</span><div></div>

[Bewts]

I can confirm the problem with the owlbears in nek forest.  I duo them with a dirge and not every time, but sometimes in the group encounters I'll solidly have all the bears on me, once the first bear dies another bear will turn on the dirge.  I'll use all 3 taunts to include the one in the 900 second refresh timer and the bear just wont peel of until I blow through almost all my dps.  If its a group of 4 owlbears then the third or fourth does the same thing on the dirge when we kill the second bear whom I can't steal aggro from and the dirge eats it.  Seems like a bug to me. <div></div>

[Babayaaga]

<P>Character levels and combat arts aside, (since so many good points have already been raised), one thing that seems to get overlooked by some monks are weapon choices.</P> <P>Ideally, you have several weapon types and use them situationally. In the cases of tanking, you should be using high delay weapons like quarterstaves (dw) or 1h high delay staves (less chance of mob riposte), but look at the damage on these weapons. Always try to get the hardest hitting weapons for each weapon type. And for god's sake, don't let these weapons go below white con!</P> <P>If you're trying to hold agro wielding green or god forbid, grey weapons, you're going to lose almost every time. A while back they changed the code whereby weapons lose considerable effectiveness when they go green.</P>

[Nemi]

Given that ripostes HURT in this game (basically unmitigated damage), I would suggest NOT using 2 weapons. find yourself a Pristine Bo for your level. If you get riposted, your going to need a heal, that means more aggro and more power usuage. When tanking you don't want this. Its one of the advantages of Warriors when Sword and Shielding.

[Babayaaga]

<P>Only issue with that Nemi is finding good 2h staves. I'm seeing more 2h staves become available, and the Heiro Crook is a must have quest as soon as you can do it, but IMHO this game lacks for good 2h monk/bruiser staffs and most of the time we'll end up weilding caster staves.I know that for a while I had a lot of trouble 35+ finding *any* 2h staves worthy of weilding on Guk (including caster staves). I found using 1.9 delay quarterstaves wasn't bad, but in severe cases where I was taking substantial damage before I had a good 2h I just went bare fisted and damage on me dropped significantly. </P> <P>I heard a Master Chest dropped a decent staff obviously designed with monks/bruisers in mind dropped the other day from a raid encounter on Guk, so there is a small glimmer of hope.</P>