A very interesting group.

[Neimhidh]

<DIV>Saturday night, went into the Tomb of Night with a lower 30's group.  Had my monk, a SK, 2 scouts, a wiz, and a Mystic.  We ended up with 20+ deaths, mostly the healer.  We had to evac every other ring event attempt.  Must have evac'd 30 times.  2 adds in any fight was a guaranteed evac and possible death. At one point the healer had to leave to repair his armor.  Named Vamp wiped us easy.  It was hard, but we got the scouts and all came away with loot and xp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sunday night, went into the Tomb of Night with a lower 30's group.  Had 2 monks, a bruiser, 2 paladins, and a Fury.  We ended up with 1 death.  Couldn't evac, but never had to run from a fight.  We had fights with up to 3 single encouter adds, no deaths,  Killed the named vamp with no deaths.  It was a cake walk, we got the scouts and came away with lots of dings and loots.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My opinion is for the best group, grab a pair of mitigation tanks, a healer, and 3 brawlers and go to town on anything in the game. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bonesbro]

I think it's more of a sad commentary on Mystics... our regular group runs with just a Mystic as a healer and adds are very bad for us.

[Wiou]

Sorry, but your situations are very biased <div></div>

[Ili]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neimhidh wrote: <DIV>My opinion is for the best group, grab a pair of mitigation tanks, a healer, and 3 brawlers and go to town on anything in the game. :smileyhappy:<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the amount of time it'd take to kill things, I'm gonna put a big PASS there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Ilina</DIV> <DIV>The Cosmetic Monkie!</DIV>

[Wiou]

You would kill very fast. Last time I checked brawlers are fairly good at dealing damage. Times that by 3 and you get.... slow killing...?? <div></div>

[Neimhidh]

Brawlers are still excellent DPS, no real noticible difference in kill times between the groups.  Basicaly what I am saying is that pound for pound, brawlers are near the top for DPS and much more durable than scouts/casters imho.

[Ili]

<P>The comparison between having three brawlers in a party as compared to three scouts, or two scouts and a mage, or two mages and a scout was what I was getting at there, folks. :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>I'm not a big fan of all Fighter groups myself, been there, done that. But in the end, exp is what really matters, not the 'perfect' group.</P> <P>-Ilina</P>

[Starbright3]

<blockquote><hr>bonesbro wrote:I think it's more of a sad commentary on Mystics... our regular group runs with just a Mystic as a healer and adds are very bad for us.<hr></blockquote>I agree. It's a credit to Mystics and the players they group with that the class continues to thrive. Will be interesting to see what impact the upcoming healer archetype changes will have on them./hijack off <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TBHt]

Groups with more than 2 fighter types are pointless.  Monk DPS may be comparable to a scout or mage that is slacking, but when they try they are always better and have more utility than a brawler. Get a mitigation tank, shammy/druid, cleric, bard/ench, wiz/mage/scout and you'll be set. <div></div>

[i3ry]

There's a million good reasons to have more than one fighter in your group.  How about the shielding buffs we can cast on each other?  How about offtanking?  Back up tanking?  I mean there's a ton you have to work with. EQ2 isn't about constructing the same old boring group with the same classes in it every single time.  You can be just as efficient without that perfect group as long as you group with people that know what they are doing. <div></div>

[Wiou]

well said <div></div>

[ForceUs]

<font color="#ffcc33">The sad part of this post is that scouts aren't needed at all--not to scout, not to open chests, not to open doors or disarm traps, not to evac, and apparently not even for DPS. That is </font><font color="#ff6600"><i>tragic</i></font><font color="#ffcc33"><font color="#ff6600"> </font>for a game designed around four archetypes.</font> <div></div>

[TBHt]

I like having one scout because their utility arts are helpful and their DPS is constant; whereas if a mage runs out of mana, there is no more dmaage. And just to respond to i3ry2k, who said having 2 fighters isn't a good thing? As you notice from my ideal group it includes one spot for the assumed monk. <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>There's a million good reasons to have more than one fighter in your group.  How about the shielding buffs we can cast on each other?  How about offtanking?  Back up tanking?  I mean there's a ton you have to work with.<BR><BR>EQ2 isn't about constructing the same old boring group with the same classes in it every single time.  You can be just as efficient without that perfect group as long as you group with people that know what they are doing.<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL, say that in about 2 months...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brawlers will never replace scouts again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there will be 1 and only 1 MT in groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards/warlocks/conjurers/necros/coercer/illusionist WILL ALL put our dps to smithereens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts will out dps by FAR without trying...(as opposed to us keeping up when one is slacking.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raids will be balanced 2 MT's 6 healers and 16 DPS....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if ANY mage is available - count yourself out - if ANY scout is available - count yourself out - and unless you are in the ELITE top  2 tanks in your guild.... pack ur s-h-it- ur going home...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Welcome to the real world season 2.:smileywink:</DIV>

[Raminicus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>There's a million good reasons to have more than one fighter in your group.  How about the shielding buffs we can cast on each other?  How about offtanking?  Back up tanking?  I mean there's a ton you have to work with.<BR><BR>EQ2 isn't about constructing the same old boring group with the same classes in it every single time.  You can be just as efficient without that perfect group as long as you group with people that know what they are doing.<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL, say that in about 2 months...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brawlers will never replace scouts again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there will be 1 and only 1 MT in groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards/warlocks/conjurers/necros/coercer/illusionist WILL ALL put our dps to smithereens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts will out dps by FAR without trying...(as opposed to us keeping up when one is slacking.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raids will be balanced 2 MT's 6 healers and 16 DPS....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if ANY mage is available - count yourself out - if ANY scout is available - count yourself out - and unless you are in the ELITE top  2 tanks in your guild.... pack ur s-h-it- ur going home...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Welcome to the real world season 2.:smileywink:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm sorry that you're in a guild that puts having a "perfect" raiding group over including as many as possible, regardless of class.  True, there are certain MUST have archetypes, but with 24 slots it's hard to imagine not being included no matter which alt I'm playing.  And if for some reason I don't make the cut on a Friday Night, I know I'll be included on Saturday Night.  You might want to find a guild which is friendly instead of a powergaming guild.</P> <P> </P>

[Dia]

<P>Well the perfect group is more depending on the player behind the toon I would say.</P> <P>A tank that cant get/keep aggro is to no use, dps/healers that cant stay out of aggroing is to no use either. Play any class right and you can accomplish alot of nice things. But looking past the all that I would say that a group with 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 mezzer and 3 dps would be the best. or 1 tank, 2 healers (not 2 cleric types) and 3 dps.</P> <P>Im usually in a group with the base 1 paladin, 1 ranger, 1 monk, 1 inquisitor. Filling up (if we need/want) with friends or good players that is online.</P> <DIV>Dwarven Templar (30) / Armourer (40)</DIV> <DIV>Dwarven Monk (32)</DIV> <DIV>Dwarven Scout (5)</DIV> <DIV>Dark Elf Predator (1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: spelling error</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Diarf on <SPAN class=date_text>03-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:05 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Diarf on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:06 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>you missed the point....</P> <P>guilds arent made of 24 players. they are made of usually by the time somone reaches level 50,  50+ players i would say.</P> <P>we are talking about brute desireability and neccessity, not my friends are letting me come tonight so i can do 150dps.</P> <P>thats a waste when you can bring a mage and do 300 dps and get alot more utility and use...and its not a first time go around thing. heck  - im not in an uber raiding guild, but i would like to be simply as a reflection of my play consistency, i play so much that yeah, i want to raid everynight possible.</P> <P>Not just when it suits my **friends** to let me tag along on *buddy night*...do to my classes use and desirability...</P>

[Raminicus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>you missed the point....</P> <P>guilds arent made of 24 players. they are made of usually by the time somone reaches level 50,  50+ players i would say.</P> <P>we are talking about brute desireability and neccessity, not my friends are letting me come tonight so i can do 150dps.</P> <P>thats a waste when you can bring a mage and do 300 dps and get alot more utility and use...and its not a first time go around thing. heck  - im not in an uber raiding guild, but i would like to be simply as a reflection of my play consistency, i play so much that yeah, i want to raid everynight possible.</P> <P>Not just when it suits my **friends** to let me tag along on *buddy night*...do to my classes use and desirability...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>my guild has 80+ players</P> <P><BR> </P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>then you should have a keen understanding of what im talking about then...</P> <P>say your entire guild was level 50 for a day and doing raid runs all day long. new places with new things that had never been experieced that were likely to be trial and error scenarios, do you think they are gonna take along the best buds and friends,</P> <P>**just because**</P> <P>or do you think they are going to take along the best 24 possible out of 80+ players???</P> <P>if your guild leader would take the buddies and friends, then i feel sorry for the guy that makes decisions in your guild.  When you put together an exp group in a regular zone, you dont just find 6 players all around the same level and go fight, you mix/max until you are left without options, then you fill slots that way. And even then you are still min/max cause you look to buff stacking potential next...if you have a guardian in group, you look for a zerker and use it for its haste buffs. OR some other type of class with the utility that would benefit the group the most. </P> <P>Not just 6 random players...</P>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>  When you put together an exp group in a regular zone, you dont just find 6 players all around the same level and go fight, you mix/max until you are left without options, then you fill slots that way. And even then you are still min/max cause you look to buff stacking potential next...if you have a guardian in group, you look for a zerker and use it for its haste buffs. OR some other type of class with the utility that would benefit the group the most. </P> <P>Not just 6 random players...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Apparently you and I don't play the same game.<BR>

[Death4]

Three cheers for non-basic groups.  I love variety.  In fact, I can't think of a single time in Everquest or Everquest II where I grouped with a "normal" group.  I remember doing LDoN's with 5 Rangers (I was the Warrior).  Ahh, good times. <p>Message Edited by Death40k on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:54 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>i guess we dont cause i for darn sure dont load up my groups with me, 4 tanks, and a healer. If i can help it. But ive done it before and it usually doesnt work cause you end up with aggro all over the place.</P> <P>im sorry - but i dont know anyone who makes groups without a decent amount of every archetypes classes available.</P> <P>you make groups based on the best groups availble <STRONG><EM>at your disposal</EM></STRONG>. So instead of being so darn literal about it. Think in terms of if you always did have the selection of 1 of each archetype to maximum capability.  Then you <EM><STRONG>would always</STRONG> </EM>MIN/MAX on everything unless you were feeling silly and wanted to say hey lets try a 5 healer 1 tank group...</P> <P>So like i said, you dont just throw the first 6 players you see LFG, into a group and expect it to be long lasting and functional.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>and no = im not up for super groups either. Im making a point, </P> <P>personally - it depends on what im doing. if its a run through RE and ive done it 100+ times from level 31 - 38, yeah i dont care who you put in the group - lets just go.</P> <P>Now if we are going to nek castle for the first time, or taking a stroll through the feerott at level 35, heck yeah i want a good group that isnt gonna have me on corpse runs all day...</P>

[RadricTyc]

<P>The best nek castle run I ever did was: Guardian, 4 monks and an Inquisitor.  The guardian tanked and all 4 monks put the avoidance buff on him.  We fought yellow ^^ mobs and there were fights where they never touched him.  The fights were over practically before they began, each one remarkably resembled a Rodney King beating.  Rush into bedroom, spawn sister, beatdown sister in seconds, and run to the next one.</P> <P>The remarkable thing about this game is how adaptable groups can be.  No our group wasn't ideal, but it was very powerful.  Think, 4 monks equals 4 emergency heals every 5 minutes.  That's almost a heal per minute.  I even started to wonder if a group of 6 monks wouldn't work pretty well as a group.  That would be a potent heal every 50 seconds.  Plus it would be avoidance buff * 5.  The thing is, even if a group wouldn't be perfect for a zone, it's always fun to try.  Some of the most exciting play happens when you have to improvise to make it work, rather than just doing the same mechanical strategy every time.</P><p>Message Edited by RadricTycho on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:37 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>yeah yet again radric, i totally agree, but of course im speaking post balancing which you yourself outlined better than anything SOE couldve put together.</P> <P>i wouldnt be surprised if they nerf fighter dps in order to **boost scouts** to thier desired dps position amoung the archetype...</P> <P>because anything else boost wise, and scouts will be in wizard territory for dps... (most scouts).</P> <P>And with that being said, those 1 plate tank 4 monk groups will be worthless...and alot of those spells and arts will probably become more efficient but directed for thier ***INTENDED*** purposes... with the monk/bruiser as the MT in mind.</P> <P>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <SPAN class=date_text>03-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:34 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 AM</span>

[kerra]

<P><SPAN>I positively hate grouping with other monks, buffs walk all over each other (Will Take No Effect), attacks walk all over  each other (What ever it says then) personally IMO I have a group of 4 that can do anything Monk, Guardian, Ranger (lots of interrupts for caster mobs) and a Warden. Now this has been "my experience with the game" but a few added extras are small group are XP bonus, makes things more fun (interesting), and last but not least a 1 in 4 chance at the uber loot. With this group we have beat 50x2 encounters albeit weak one's:smileyvery-happy: nonetheless a 50x2.   </SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>IMO all groups should have two tank classes just in case one goes down there will be sufficient enough back up to prevent a total group wipe. Anyways just my 2cp worth takes care. </SPAN></P> <P> </P>

[Raminicus]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>then you should have a keen understanding of what im talking about then...</P> <P>say your entire guild was level 50 for a day and doing raid runs all day long. new places with new things that had never been experieced that were likely to be trial and error scenarios, do you think they are gonna take along the best buds and friends,</P> <P>**just because**</P> <P>or do you think they are going to take along the best 24 possible out of 80+ players???</P> <P>if your guild leader would take the buddies and friends, then i feel sorry for the guy that makes decisions in your guild.  When you put together an exp group in a regular zone, you dont just find 6 players all around the same level and go fight, you mix/max until you are left without options, then you fill slots that way. And even then you are still min/max cause you look to buff stacking potential next...if you have a guardian in group, you look for a zerker and use it for its haste buffs. OR some other type of class with the utility that would benefit the group the most. </P> <P>Not just 6 random players...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey man, I'm not trying to argue with you here.  And I never said anything about "best buds and friends" --> that would be horrible to a new person in the guild who doesn't know everybody very well.  When my guild raids or when we start groups for exp for the night we ask who wants to go in /gu.  The guild make up is such that most of the time, there's at least 1 healer, at least 1 tank and some DPSs/Utilities thrown in.  The point I was trying to make at first is that if you're in a raiding guild with a class that doesn't have any large raid-specific demand, then it can get real lonesome unless your guild concentrates more on fun and inclusion rather than dominating the mobs quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's a strategy that can be used for almost any group or raidgroup make-up.  Out of 24 characters, you're not going to be healer-less or tank-less.  There are simply too many of those classes for that.  All I was saying was that my guild in particular likes to include everybody who shows an interest in the night's activities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SniperKitty]

Shamans are a tough healer to play.  I know.  I play one.  I also play a druid healer, and it's pretty easy.  The all tank group works, but it's slow as a frakkin' tortoise.  My ideal group setup is tank, healer, bard, dps, dps, dps.  Alternatively, you can replace the tank with another dps class.  I've done it with my Defiler.  Wards make anyone into a tank as long as you can keep them alive when the ward falls and get them re-warded before the next round of attacks. <div></div>

[Wiou]

when I make a group, I grab any scout thats around groups level range if they're lfg <div></div>

[Brew01]

<DIV>I'm just wondering why everone posting here is saying as a monk they are the dps and not in the role as MT myself I always make groups around me tanking. My ideal group is monk mt,1-2 healers, and 3-4 dps. My job is easier with 2 healers but I've had many people say I do a great job as the MT with just one as well. This is due in part to the person behind the screen. For the most part SOE provided the tools needed to be a good tank, however IMO a monks skill is a huge factor in how effective a tank they can be. I enjoy having another fighter class in my grp for 2 reasons. </DIV> <DIV>1. The buffs they provide are very useful</DIV> <DIV>2. I enjoy showing other fighter classes that us Monks are viable tanks and not just a DPS toon.</DIV> <DIV>on a Side note I tanked the ancient when I was lvl 38 and killed everling when I was in my low 30s.. I am only saying this because I had a lot of people tell me it couldn't be done (as a monk) and I did it anyway. I'm proud to be able to say I accomplished this as a Monk MT.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I'm not tring to make this into a monk tanking debate I'm just stating that I enjoy tanking and I have no problem with other monks that enjoy the DPS aspect.)</DIV>